I second a lot of what Peter says. And believe that it ain't gonna get nuttin' but worse over time as grid-tie PV becomes more mainstream. I think it's pretty much inevitable that a serious fire or two or serious injury or death or two due to incompetence and a poorly installed system is gonna whack us all over the head one day soon.
In Hawaii, by law, there's no such thing as a legal owner-builder PV system. Only licensed electrical contractors (C-13) can legally obtain the necessary electrical permits in Hawaii's four counties to install PV systems. (We have a specialty Solar Power Systems license, but it's a joke and does not carry any mango juice with the state's electrical departments.) But that has not stopped a tsunami of sometimes well-intentioned, often-times grandiose thinking local and Mainland yahoos from leaping into the PV market peddling their _________-brand cheep-cheap modules in this frantic race to the price and quality installation bottom. More education and training is desperately needed. I know that Ezra and our NABCEP amigos are doing their best, but I have to say that I've been shockingly disappointed with those eager people with their NABCEP entry level certification in hand hitting me up for a job. 'Kinda like offering a diploma to a kid graduating from kindergarten.. I also very much appreciate Bill Brooks, John Wiles, Keith Cronin, my friends at various IBEW chapters and others who are doing what they can to accelerate the process. But I have a queasy feeling that we're falling behind. In the 30+ years I've been in the field, nothing can take the place of experience in the field. (And I'm still learning each and every day and with each and every installation.) And I just don't see the numbers out there as far as enough trained and PV-competent people in the field. marco From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 6:43 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education Joel, As a friend, I have enjoyed your perspectives on our business, even though I usually don't agree with everything you say. I have never taken you to task in a public forum, but I can't let your latest post go without comment. There is a reason we call these guys DIYs. They have no experience and limited knowledge; in other words they are not professionals. And, by the way, what do you mean by "so-called professional". I can't believe you tell some one who wants to get into the solar business to first put one on their home as a DIY. Could you in good conscience recommend someone who has never stepped foot on a roof in their lives to spend a week on one in 90-100 degree weather, in physical contact with modules and other components that are cooking at 145 degrees, and DC voltages approaching 600 V? Squinting at a layout/schematic the likes of which they have never seen before? Someone who hasn't used anything more than an 8 ft step ladder or doesn't know what a safety harness is? You also oversimplify: an appropriate apprenticeship for an installer is not the same as that for a design engineer or a salesperson. You don't need to have installed the PV system you own to appreciate how it works. I am personally aware of three DIY solar projects as well as a dozen or so contractor-installed systems that we have been called out to troubleshoot and fix. Even the best DIY project was worse than worst contractor-installed job. All, But here is my main point. I have a pretty good test of what is key in this PV business of ours. I get a call at least once a week from some one who wants me to "help them with a PV installation". In addition to DIYs, I get these calls from B and C-10 contractors, facilities managers, apartment owners, and the like. They will take care of [fill in the part that they think they have covered] and they only need help with [fill in the part they need help on]. They usually have spent some time on the internet and have an idea of what modules to use and have teased a quote out of a manufacturer or distributor for "5-50 kW" of PV; they usually have some un(der)employed electricians who can read a blueprint, bend and hang conduit and pull wire. What they don't know is how to (1) Specify an appropriately sized system (2) Design a system (panel orientation, shading, structural calcs, string sizing, ampacity calcs, over current protection, grounding), (3) Specify all the speciality BoS components or where to buy them. (4) Put together a permit package (that will pass ARB, Planning, Safety and Fire department muster) (5) Perform the mechanical side of the installation (read roof penetrations) They usually know about the 30% ITC (or grant) but they just need a little help with the rebate application, which usually means they have some un(der) employed back office folks as well. So for me it boils down to (1) Performance-optimized, Code-compliant Design (Bill Brooks, are you listening?), (2) Plans & Permitting and (3) Mechanical Installation Moreover, what they usually have in the back of their mind is to buy this expertise once from us and then do it all themselves from then on. Some have audacity to use the phrase "I'd like to pick your mind". Can you imagine that? I second the comment about off-grid, and even though we install grid-tied, battery back-up systems a fair amount - I still don't pretend to understand the complete off-grid scenario well enough to properly design one. Regards, - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President California Solar Engineering, Inc. 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 <mailto:peter.parr...@calsolareng.com> peter.parr...@calsolareng.com Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 _____ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 8:50 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education I agree. I have DIY customers who know more about PV systems than a lot of so-called PV professionals. Designing and installing PV systems is a continuous learning experience. We are practitioners because, like doctors, we practice our trade, expand our knowledge, and hone our skills. I tell people who wants to get in the PV business to put a PV system on their own home. People who tell me that they want to sell PV but can not go solar personally for whatever reason have less credibility. They get less respect from prospective customers who use the same reasons or excuses for not going solar. They either don't last long in the business or are in it only for the money. Granted, there are less operational nuances to a batteryless, grid-tied PV system than a battery-based system or wind or water generator, but living with your work is essential. It makes you keenly aware of unique subtleties and helps you better understand your customers concerns. Joel Davidson ----- Original Message ----- From: R. Walters <mailto:walt...@taosnet.com> To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:05 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education For Off grid, no one should even attempt being a designer/ installer without living for a full year on their own off grid system. GT w/ batteries, you need off grid smarts and understand GT. Training newbies, I can't imagine them being able to do anything other than schlep modules/ do grunt work for a couple of years. I could see a licensed electrician with a year of full time training being able to do GT w/o batteries. Most of the market and all the growth is in the GT w/o batteries, so I think your training should concentrate there. I've taught a semester long PV class, and all I was able to do was create well educated consumers. R. Walters Solarray.com NABCEP # 04170442 On Jul 17, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Keith Cronin wrote: Hi gang I was wondering, what percentage do you believe represents the ratio of classroom training to field training for PV and what percentage you believe should be performed by licensed electricians vs what is deemed mechanical work? Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries ___% classroom- electrician ___% field- electrician Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries ___% classroom- mechanical ___% field- mechanical Commercial Grid Tie w/out batteries ___% classroom-electrician ___% field-electrician Commercial Grid Tie w/out batteries ___% classroom-mechanical ___% field-mechanical Residential GT with batteries ____% classroom-electrician ____% field-electrician Residential GT with batteries ____% classroom-mechanical ____% field-mechanical Any takers on the off grid market percentages? Commercial w/ batteries is utility scale and I don't think it can be quantified today as the projects are generally design build and perhaps hard to put an exact # on these. Thanks Keith _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. 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