You're correct Larry, my apologies. Been burning the candle at both ends. Thanks for your input.
On 2011-11-16, at 9:04 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Ron, you have misquoted me so yes you are wrong. It is not about getting to > 32 volts. Go read it again. > > On Nov 16, 2011, at 12:20 AM, Ron Young wrote: > >> Hi Daryl. I've got other KS25's in hybrid systems (wind gen & solar) that >> seem to do fine over the last several years. The Ouback 3524 has an 85 amp >> charger. There was no problem getting to 32 v and holding it for eight >> hours. This has been done twice now. Larry and others attribute the ability >> to get to 32v to a sulphated battery condition and I'm thinking that a >> healthy battery could get to 32v as well, especially one that's been >> regularly EQ'd... am I wrong? >> >> I'm listening to every opinion here and trying to sort it out but I think >> John may be on the right track with an intermittent failure of one cell. I >> just can't seem to find it. >> >> Ron Young >> >> On 2011-11-13, at 3:51 AM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote: >> >>> Ron, >>> What comes to mind for me is that Surrette 5000 series batteries like >>> to have a regular charge of C10. KS25 cells are rated for 1350 ah, >>> creating a need for a somewhat regularly occurring charge of 135 amps. >>> I do believe the batteries are not ever getting that, except for very >>> rare occasions. We have seen this before in undersized systems. >>> Is the bulk charge set to 29.6? I would try a couple more eq's over the >>> next month to loosen likely sulfation. Get it up to as close to 32 >>> volts as possible and taper the charge down, then eq at that voltage >>> for four or five hours, even more if the client will do it. >>> That would be how we would deal with this. It does seem ultimately to >>> be sulfation that is the problem. >>> >>> Daryl DeJoy >>> NABCEP Certified PV installer >>> Penobscot Solar Design >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Folks, this one really has me puzzled. The client has done regular two >>>> hour EQ's, at least once a month. When did a site visit and I topped up >>>> the electrolyte (they'd been starving the batteries for water but always >>>> just above the plates) the problem seemed to go away. They were satisfied >>>> that the problem was solved but I wasn't and I told them what I had been >>>> hearing from this group - essentially that the batteries needed a deep EQ, >>>> discharge, recharge and EQ again two or three times to scrub the >>>> sulphates. They declined until just a few days ago when they said the >>>> rapid voltage drop was back. Here's a quote: >>>> >>>> We had another rapid voltage loss this morning ---it was 25.2 when we got >>>> up and it dropped rapidly to 22.8. We turned on the generator and charged >>>> the batteries until our display showed 30.2 for awhile with the generator >>>> running. We turned off the generator and the voltage settled at about >>>> 26.4. We turned off all loads and wind and solar. >>>> >>>> At 9.15 our batteries were at 26.4 >>>> At 9:16 we turned on an 8W light bulb, a1600W hair dryer, and a 1.5HP >>>> (120V 5.75A) shop vac >>>> The display showed a load of 1.9kw >>>> At 9:40 the inverter shut down---display showed batteries at 18.4 >>>> By 9.47 the display showed the batteries at 25.2----the solar and wind >>>> were still shut down. >>>> We turned everything back on (a light, Sunfrost RF16, phone) and all >>>> seems to be normal. >>>> >>>> They agreed to do the EQ process but only have a 3kw generator so we >>>> started with 8 hours with the EQ voltage set for 32v (24v system). They >>>> completed that yesterday and here's what resulted: >>>> >>>> Before starting EQ the batteries were at 25.8, hydrometer reading 1283 >>>> with temp. correction >>>> Began EQ 32.6 v >>>> Buying >>>> 1.5 kw >>>> Hour 1 32.4 v >>>> 1283 with temp. correction Buying 1.4 >>>> Hour 2 32.4 v >>>> 1285 with temp. correction Buying 1.5 >>>> Hour 3 32.2 v >>>> >>>> Buying 1.7 >>>> Hour 4 32.2 v >>>> 1290 with temp correction Buying 1.8 >>>> HOur 5 32.0 v >>>> 1290 with temp correction Buying 1.8 >>>> Hour 6 32.0 v >>>> Buying >>>> 1.9 >>>> Hour 7 31.8 v >>>> 1292 with temp correcton Buying 1.9 >>>> Hour 8 complete---turned off Gen and turned on loads ---Batteries dropped >>>> to 25.4 within 30 minutes and stayed there until this morning---fridge was >>>> running, telephone, internet, wool carding machine, lights. This morning >>>> hydrometer reading was at 1290. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Then today I just got this email: >>>> >>>> Just experienced another rapid voltage drop. As soon as the voltage hits >>>> 24.8 the voltage drops like a rock if we don't have any input (no solar or >>>> wind). >>>> >>>> This is not what I expected after a lengthy EQ. I'm getting them to do >>>> another one tomorrow after a discharge cycle and charge but I'm really >>>> beginning to think we have something else going on here, something >>>> electrical, not chemical. The rapid voltage drop is puzzling. >>>> >>>> To review, it's an Outback 3524 on an Epanel, Whisper 100 & controller, 6 >>>> 4KS 25 Surrette batteries in 24v configuration - 4.5 years old, .7kw >>>> solar. I know the charging end is undersized but they have been >>>> compensating with the generator and they get lots of wind in the fall, >>>> winter, spring. >>>> >>>> Any more thoughts on this anyone? >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Ron Young >>>> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com >>>> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2011-10-24, at 6:50 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Ron, >>>>> Accurate SG readings are not simple. Was temperature compensation >>>>> properly employed? Have they been keeping a log book to identify >>>>> changes? How accurate is the hydrometer? How skilled is the person >>>>> taking the reading? >>>>> >>>>> Most of the Battery Wrench responses suggest equalization but I don't >>>>> see from any of your posts that this has been done yet. I suggest this >>>>> to be the next step and I recommend that you carefully watch voltage and >>>>> current. This will tell you a lot. I use a Fluke ScopeMeter in the >>>>> TrendPlot mode and track voltage and current over time. It provides a >>>>> good visual understanding. >>>>> >>>>> In case others are using this forum to glean information, attached is a >>>>> chart for illustration of the charge cycle. You should see a constant, >>>>> somewhat linear rise in voltage until the constant voltage setting is >>>>> reached. If you see a sudden rise: suspect sulfation. If you see a quick >>>>> reduction in current: suspect sulfation. The current should drop to >>>>> about 8-10 amps at the constant voltage towards the end of charge cycle. >>>>> The health and DoD will determine the time this takes, expect many >>>>> hours. Begin equalization. >>>>> >>>>> <3s-chart.gif> >>>>> >>>>> A couple other points: Is the MX absorb voltage at 29.6V? Did you >>>>> program the MX controller for an extended absorb time (advanced menu, >>>>> absorb time limits)? The default setting is poor for large batteries. I >>>>> use 90 minutes minimum and 4 hours max. This can greatly reduce the >>>>> possibility of undercharging the battery but it may use more water. The >>>>> timer (ChgT) will determine how long it stays in absorb each day. >>>>> >>>>> Larry Crutcher >>>>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 24, 2011, at 12:49 AM, Ron Young wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Larry, >>>>>> >>>>>> I immediately assumed sulphated battery when I heard the customers >>>>>> description a couple of weeks ago but the hydrometer readings didn't >>>>>> jive. Any sulphated battery I've encountered, and I defer to your >>>>>> greater experience, has always revealed itself with a simple S.G. test >>>>>> and these batteries were reading above 1.265. I then thought the >>>>>> possibility of a defective hydrometer and had them test with another >>>>>> but we just got confirmation of the same thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> The weird drop in voltage also isn't explained by your description. Why >>>>>> would this just happen without loads or charging present (except maybe >>>>>> the DC Sunfrost load) at the same predictable time at 4 a.m. The fact >>>>>> that when the generator was turned on and sent a surge of current into >>>>>> the system and the problem went away made the detective in me think >>>>>> there had to be another explanation. The bank was at rest for several >>>>>> hours through the night and the voltage dropout was cured by a brief >>>>>> application of charge current. >>>>>> >>>>>> When I arrived on site my discovery that the client was under watering >>>>>> the batteries and this chronic condition resulted in a very rich >>>>>> electrolyte, reading well above 1.265 - into the 1.280 range made me >>>>>> think that was the problem and it seems to have gone away now that the >>>>>> electrolyte level was raised and the batteries given a good charge. But >>>>>> it still nags at me that something else is lurking in the shadows. Your >>>>>> description of the sulphate converting to a crystalline form has me >>>>>> worried because if this is the case this expensive battery bank is in >>>>>> danger. I would have to camp out at the site and monitor the charging >>>>>> over a day or so. I'm going to forward some of your comments and those >>>>>> of others that have generously offered suggestions and we'll see if I >>>>>> can convince the client who now believes everything is A-Ok. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>> Ron Young >>>>>> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com >>>>>> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Options & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Options & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Options & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Options & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org