I will similarly echo Allan's comments below re: Apollo. They sent me the same 3224 inverter and accessories to evaluate and try and gain my business. The unit stat in boxes for some time until last year when I decided to install and test out the system. My bad judgement to put this in a remote area, and to expect it to actually work. The inverter appeared to work fine, but we really needed to get some charge into the batteries. No matter what I tried I could not get the charge rate above 8A / 24VDC. Documentation was non-existent. Finally talk to Apollo and they tell me I need an RS485 interface and software to program charge rate, that the default setting is 10% of max charge. WTF? I recall him going on at length about why that's such a great idea and not interested in my feedback as a wrench why it in fact is a terrible idea. I'm in the middle of nowhere and I need that working now. I had RS485 interface gear with be but could not get it to work, issues with firmware, serial numbers, etc, etc and lost patience with doing this all over satellite. Never did get loads on it other than a few CFLs and a water pump as battery state was low. It didn't have any issues with CFL's. The DC Disconnect was a marvel of mis-wiring with a factory dead short and pre-cut wires that didn't reach anything, etc. Tore it all apart and re-wired. I purchased the official RS485 interface but have not played with it further since I can't see recommending anything as poorly designed as this. Ditto everyone's comments on the TR Series. Run, fast in another direction. Kevin
-----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: May 1, 2013 12:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Apollo (was TR Inverter Problems) In my opinion, based upon personal experience, Apollo is not a company of high integrity, and I would not encourage use of their products. I have kept my mouth shut for too long. About three years ago, following a conversation with CEO John Pfeifer at Solar 2009 in Anaheim, I was sent a production 3224 inverter/disconnect package to use in my own home, with the understanding that if I liked it I'd use my bully pulpit to spread the word and if I didn't I'd keep my communication private with them - standard stuff. Their inverter was advertised as being configurable as either 120/240 or straight 120. I requested straight 120 (to replicate what I had, and because many off grid homes were set up this way). I received a split-phase unit; when I pointed this out, I was sent instructions on how to do the internal wiring changes for straight 120. (First red flag: while advertised as either, this may have been the first one tried this way.) Upon boot-up, the inverter worked but could not charge from a generator. Eventually, working with tech support we determined that engineering had put the hall-effect sensing transducer on the neutral, rather than the hot. Once this was corrected, it still didn't charge correctly, and they sent a replacement unit. I used this for about a year, and then the inverter's fan failed in an "always on" mode; I learned that this isn't a field repairable failure, but needed the unit returned to the factory. They sent a replacement: wouldn't charge. They sent a second replacement: wouldn't charge either, but the symptoms were different. Ultimately, the Sales Manager at Apollo, who had been aware of all of this, had moved west to do the same work at Magnum. He offered me a Magnum MS4024AE with MMP at a one-time try-it-out price; I removed the Apollo system, put in the Magnum, hooked up the same generator, and all has worked well since then. On 1/5/2012 I wrote this synopsis to the head of Apollo's tech support: Herb, As we have discussed, I have given up on Apollo equipment. When the fan control circuit on my Apollo 3224 inverter (the second, and in use for a bit over a year) failed in an "always on at full speed" mode, you sent a refurbished replacement, as this failure is not field repairable. The replacement unit arrived a week and a half ago, and would not charge. The replacement for the replacement arrived on Thursday (2nd day air) and also would not charge - different technical issue, same net effect. There remain several fundamental issues with the Apollo inverter that prevent it from being marketable, in my opinion, along with numerous minor deficiencies. 1. In my application, with the unit installed indoors, when charging at full capacity from a generator, after about one to two hours the unit shuts down from overheating, even with the fan at full speed. The problem is that the entire inverter shuts down, rather than just the charger. 2. As we have discussed previously, the inverter is incapable of equalizing from my generator, as it leaves EQ mode long before it has completed a programmed cycle. 3. The unit appears to be overly sensitive to loads with poor power factor; when our Electrolux vacuum cleaner is turned on, either of two computers (one a Mac, the other Windows-based) crashes consistently. And numerous minor issues and annoyances: 4. Changing any setting requires connection to a computer, and more computer literacy than some customers would have, as the process is not user-friendly. 5. The fan's continuous periodic surge is annoying. 6. The units are not designed to allow field service, so many problems require replacement of the inverter. There are other issues, but this is sufficient as to define the product as clearly not up to the standards of current products on the market. Meanwhile, early on when the problems appeared to be getting resolved, I had recommended to a long-time customer needing a major upgrade (that required a shift from 1996-era SW4024 to a 48V system) that we use Apollo equipment. As these ongoing problems had not yet developed, he accepted my recommendation. His Apollo system used a 4048 inverter, with disconnect enclosure and two T80 charge controllers. This unit was set up as 120/240, so we weren't repeating the same issues I had had. I have forgotten many of the specifics, but after numerous callbacks (and a very sharp and involved homeowner) we ultimately pulled the entire system out at our expense and put in a Magnum MS4448PAE, E-Panel and two FM60s and all of the problems went away. I cautioned John Pfeifer that this was a purchased system for a customer, and I had not made the same confidentiality agreement with it. He asked me not to publicly air our experiences, and assured me they would make everything right. On 8/11/11 I wrote him: John, We have completed removal of the Apollo equipment. The [X] system is back up and in full operation. We selected a Magnum MS44448PAE inverter, mounted on a Midnite Solar E-Panel, with dual Outback FM60 charge controllers. This system package is is the closest available to what made up the Apollo package. I have attached before and after photos of the swapout, which was completed on Wednesday 8/3/11. I will be sending you billing by separate email. I will describe here how I have chosen to bill you, that represents the most fair and ethical judgments I can determine. First, I put together a package using competitors' equipment that most closely matched your package. For instance, I did not include the generator start option, as I had returned to you the one we didn't use that was part of your package. Also, I did not include any of the materials related to online monitoring, as you had not charged me for the communications gateway or the ASNET kit. During the swapout, I instructed [my technicians] to record separately that time not directly attributed to warranty work, as that will be billed directly to [X] (you will see this as a line credit on the invoice). All components were priced at our actual cost, with no markup, as we had already made our legitimate components profit when we sold the hardware to [X]. Likewise, the materials used to swap out the systems were estimated based on our costs, rather than on retail prices. We added actual shipping costs, and I have estimated the freight to return the Apollo items to you based on the actual charges for the original items sent by you to us. In a similar manner I discounted our travel mileage to represent our estimate of actual costs to us to operate our large service truck on a per-mile basis. On labor, however, I elected to bill for both the swapout labor and all of our warranty service and travel labor at our normal retail rates. This is because all of the work to attempt to solve the many problems with the Apollo equipment, to communicate about the problems with you and your staff and with [X], and ultimately to replace the equipment, represent hours that would have been available for other jobs, had this ongoing effort not interfered, and thus may be justly considered billable hours at retail rates. Indeed, labor makes up the majority of the bill. All of our dedicated labor is documented, and I will send hard copies of these records by mail. I have quite the record of emails back and forth with yourself, the Apollo engineers, and [X] as we attempted to solve problem after problem with this equipment. I did not charge for some of our personal conversations about this issue, or for the (extensive) time collating records and preparing this settlement invoice. The total invoice amount is $8,791.79. Please send payment in full to us, such that I may return the removed hardware to you and this entire matter may be put behind us. Thank you, Allan And John replied: Thank you for the photos. Both systems look professional. I hope that you are both satisfied with the way we worked out the solution. This life is all about doing the right thing and it makes me happy to be able to do that whenever possible, no matter how it has to be done. By the way, we have recently fixed the last bugs that you found for us. That was not our plan, but we must move forward. John Pfeifer We received a payment from Apollo of $2,200, then nothing more. Continuing to press the issue, on 2/8/12 I received the following from Apollo's CFO (a different John): Hi Alan, I am sorry for the delay in responding - we are just a little short staff today w/ people out on vacation. As far as sending payments - we will start paying $1,000/month starting this week. Once we get close to the final payment - we will issue a call tag or arrange for a truck to pickup the items. Thank you for your help and I hope your health continues to improve. John We received one $1,000 payment a month later and nothing since then. We've written off the approximately $5,600 still owed us. We have a bunch of Apollo hardware here that we don't want and can't sell.. We finally recently used some of it for a trailer/portable system. David Katz's suggestion of an Apollo replacement for a TR served as the trigger for me to finally post our experiences here. Had Apollo kept its agreement, you'd not be reading this and Apollo would not have to deal with the effects of my posting my experiences, if any. While their failure to reimburse us for our troubles is the main reason for this post, I'll repeat that the equipment itself is not up to the standards of the industry in my experience, and I'd be cautious about using it in installations. Allan Allan Sindelar <mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com> al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc. 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/> www.positiveenergysolar.com On 5/1/2013 11:21 AM, David Katz wrote: Ray An Apollo inverter should fit on the same E-panel. I have using one on my off grid house for may years. They also have great remote monitoring over the internet. David Katz Sent from my iPhone On Apr 30, 2013, at 7:26 PM, "Ray Walters" <mailto:r...@solarray.com> <r...@solarray.com> wrote: I couldn't agree more Bob-O Pharmaceutical company? Ethics? Opps. I thought Schneider buying them would help, but they have no idea what they're even selling these days. Have you seen their website? I can't even find a spec sheet for the TR in all that "Solutions for PV systems" mumbo jumbo. Amazing that the Trace equipment line that basically put PV on the map, is the bottom of the heap now. I like your 3C term. I'll put that in our dictionary near PITA ( pain in the a__ ) factor. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/30/2013 5:54 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: The TR is a classic example of what I call 3C. Cheap Chinese Crap. If Xantrex had any ethics at all they would have killed that line and refunded everyone's dough years ago. Bob-O On Apr 30, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: Ray, I've got a customer that has the same problem with a dual TR inverter system. When we first complained, Xantrex promised they were working on a fix. That never materialized and now the TR is out of production. It's a lousy product and customer service has been the same. A few months ago, I was asked to participate in a survey regarding Xantrex products and service. My responses must have got someone's attention because I got a follow-up call about the survey. There never has been a follow-up to correct this customer's problem inverter. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com t: 541-568-4882 On 4/30/2013 3:19 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Hi Folks: I just finished up another ugly rewire project for a customer that had another"installer" put in a Xantrex TR inverter. We fixed numerous wiring issues, including neutral bonded to ground in 7 different places! The issue we're having now though, is that the TR inverter output voltage fluctuates when running CF lighting, and the refrigerator. You can literally see the lights cycling brighter and dimmer, and hear the compressor on the fridge running up and down in frequency. Xantrex/ Schneider Tech support said that: A) The TR doesn't do well with CF lighting, and that we should switch to all incandescent........ hmmmm. B) We should set the search watts to zero (which I already did) C) We need to increase the loads on the TR, as it doesn't regulate output voltage and frequency very well at lower loads........ 2nd big hmmmmm. I knew there was a reason I quit installing Xantrex inverters about 5 years ago, but I couldn't recall the details. Now its all coming back to my feeble, aging brain. So aside from switching out the inverter , (which I just installed on a beautiful Midnite E-Panel) does anybody have any cures for our ills? How would LED lighting behave? Should I throw a capacitor across the output? or perhaps I should just retire early and sail around the Caribbean? (I can afford a canoe/ no sail......) As always, thanks in advance for this wonderful technical (and emotional) support group, _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
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