I have had similar experience with Apollo. I have found the config software to be very buggy and difficult to use, and I believe having no way to change parameters on site without a computer with a specialized connector and program is a mistake.
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Kevin Pegg <kp...@energyalternatives.ca>wrote: > ** > I will similarly echo Allan's comments below re: Apollo. They sent me the > same 3224 inverter and accessories to evaluate and try and gain my > business. The unit stat in boxes for some time until last year when I > decided to install and test out the system. My bad judgement to put this in > a remote area, and to expect it to actually work. > > The inverter appeared to work fine, but we really needed to get some > charge into the batteries. No matter what I tried I could not get the > charge rate above 8A / 24VDC. Documentation was non-existent. Finally talk > to Apollo and they tell me I need an RS485 interface and software to > program charge rate, that the default setting is 10% of max charge. WTF? I > recall him going on at length about why that's such a great idea and not > interested in my feedback as a wrench why it in fact is a terrible idea. I'm > in the middle of nowhere and I need that working now. I had RS485 interface > gear with be but could not get it to work, issues with firmware, serial > numbers, etc, etc and lost patience with doing this all over > satellite. Never did get loads on it other than a few CFLs and a water > pump as battery state was low. It didn't have any issues with CFL's. > > The DC Disconnect was a marvel of mis-wiring with a factory dead > short and pre-cut wires that didn't reach anything, etc. Tore it all apart > and re-wired. I purchased the official RS485 interface but have not > played with it further since I can't see recommending anything as poorly > designed as this. > > Ditto everyone's comments on the TR Series. Run, fast in another > direction. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: > re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar > *Sent:* May 1, 2013 12:16 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Apollo (was TR Inverter Problems) > > In my opinion, based upon personal experience, Apollo is not a company of > high integrity, and I would not encourage use of their products. I have > kept my mouth shut for too long. > > About three years ago, following a conversation with CEO John Pfeifer at > Solar 2009 in Anaheim, I was sent a production 3224 inverter/disconnect > package to use in my own home, with the understanding that if I liked it > I'd use my bully pulpit to spread the word and if I didn't I'd keep my > communication private with them - standard stuff. Their inverter was > advertised as being configurable as either 120/240 or straight 120. I > requested straight 120 (to replicate what I had, and because many off grid > homes were set up this way). I received a split-phase unit; when I pointed > this out, I was sent instructions on how to do the internal wiring changes > for straight 120. (First red flag: while advertised as either, this may > have been the first one tried this way.) Upon boot-up, the inverter worked > but could not charge from a generator. Eventually, working with tech > support we determined that engineering had put the hall-effect sensing > transducer on the neutral, rather than the hot. Once this was corrected, it > still didn't charge correctly, and they sent a replacement unit. I used > this for about a year, and then the inverter's fan failed in an "always on" > mode; I learned that this isn't a field repairable failure, but needed the > unit returned to the factory. They sent a replacement: wouldn't charge. > They sent a second replacement: wouldn't charge either, but the symptoms > were different. Ultimately, the Sales Manager at Apollo, who had been aware > of all of this, had moved west to do the same work at Magnum. He offered me > a Magnum MS4024AE with MMP at a one-time try-it-out price; I removed the > Apollo system, put in the Magnum, hooked up the same generator, and all has > worked well since then. > > On 1/5/2012 I wrote this synopsis to the head of Apollo's tech support: > > Herb, > As we have discussed, I have given up on Apollo equipment. When the fan > control circuit on my Apollo 3224 inverter (the second, and in use for a > bit over a year) failed in an "always on at full speed" mode, you sent a > refurbished replacement, as this failure is not field repairable. The > replacement unit arrived a week and a half ago, and would not charge. The > replacement for the replacement arrived on Thursday (2nd day air) and also > would not charge - different technical issue, same net effect. > > There remain several fundamental issues with the Apollo inverter that > prevent it from being marketable, in my opinion, along with numerous minor > deficiencies. > 1. In my application, with the unit installed indoors, when charging at > full capacity from a generator, after about one to two hours the unit shuts > down from overheating, even with the fan at full speed. The problem is that > the entire inverter shuts down, rather than just the charger. > 2. As we have discussed previously, the inverter is incapable of > equalizing from my generator, as it leaves EQ mode long before it has > completed a programmed cycle. > 3. The unit appears to be overly sensitive to loads with poor power > factor; when our Electrolux vacuum cleaner is turned on, either of two > computers (one a Mac, the other Windows-based) crashes consistently. > > And numerous minor issues and annoyances: > 4. Changing any setting requires connection to a computer, and more > computer literacy than some customers would have, as the process is not > user-friendly. > 5. The fan's continuous periodic surge is annoying. > 6. The units are not designed to allow field service, so many problems > require replacement of the inverter. > > There are other issues, but this is sufficient as to define the product as > clearly not up to the standards of current products on the market. > > Meanwhile, early on when the problems appeared to be getting resolved, I > had recommended to a long-time customer needing a major upgrade (that > required a shift from 1996-era SW4024 to a 48V system) that we use Apollo > equipment. As these ongoing problems had not yet developed, he accepted my > recommendation. His Apollo system used a 4048 inverter, with disconnect > enclosure and two T80 charge controllers. This unit was set up as 120/240, > so we weren't repeating the same issues I had had. I have forgotten many of > the specifics, but after numerous callbacks (and a very sharp and involved > homeowner) we ultimately pulled the entire system out at our expense and > put in a Magnum MS4448PAE, E-Panel and two FM60s and all of the problems > went away. > > I cautioned John Pfeifer that this was a purchased system for a customer, > and I had not made the same confidentiality agreement with it. He asked me > not to publicly air our experiences, and assured me they would make > everything right. > > On 8/11/11 I wrote him: > > John, > We have completed removal of the Apollo equipment. The [X] system is back > up and in full operation. We selected a Magnum MS44448PAE inverter, mounted > on a Midnite Solar E-Panel, with dual Outback FM60 charge controllers. This > system package is is the closest available to what made up the Apollo > package. I have attached before and after photos of the swapout, which was > completed on Wednesday 8/3/11. > > I will be sending you billing by separate email. I will describe here how > I have chosen to bill you, that represents the most fair and ethical > judgments I can determine. First, I put together a package using > competitors' equipment that most closely matched your package. For > instance, I did not include the generator start option, as I had returned > to you the one we didn't use that was part of your package. Also, I did not > include any of the materials related to online monitoring, as you had not > charged me for the communications gateway or the ASNET kit. During the > swapout, I instructed [my technicians] to record separately that time not > directly attributed to warranty work, as that will be billed directly to > [X] (you will see this as a line credit on the invoice). > > All components were priced at our actual cost, with no markup, as we had > already made our legitimate components profit when we sold the hardware to > [X]. Likewise, the materials used to swap out the systems were estimated > based on our costs, rather than on retail prices. We added actual shipping > costs, and I have estimated the freight to return the Apollo items to you > based on the actual charges for the original items sent by you to us. In a > similar manner I discounted our travel mileage to represent our estimate of > actual costs to us to operate our large service truck on a per-mile basis. > > On labor, however, I elected to bill for both the swapout labor and all of > our warranty service and travel labor at our normal retail rates. This is > because all of the work to attempt to solve the many problems with the > Apollo equipment, to communicate about the problems with you and your staff > and with [X], and ultimately to replace the equipment, represent hours that > would have been available for other jobs, had this ongoing effort not > interfered, and thus may be justly considered billable hours at retail > rates. Indeed, labor makes up the majority of the bill. All of our > dedicated labor is documented, and I will send hard copies of these records > by mail. I have quite the record of emails back and forth with yourself, > the Apollo engineers, and [X] as we attempted to solve problem after > problem with this equipment. I did not charge for some of our personal > conversations about this issue, or for the (extensive) time collating > records and preparing this settlement invoice. > > The total invoice amount is $8,791.79. Please send payment in full to us, > such that I may return the removed hardware to you and this entire matter > may be put behind us. > Thank you, > Allan > > And John replied: > > Thank you for the photos. Both systems look professional. I hope that > you are both satisfied with the way we worked out the solution. This life > is all about doing the right thing and it makes me happy to be able to do > that whenever possible, no matter how it has to be done. By the way, we > have recently fixed the last bugs that you found for us. That was not our > plan, but we must move forward.**** > John Pfeifer > > We received a payment from Apollo of $2,200, then nothing more. Continuing > to press the issue, on 2/8/12 I received the following from Apollo's CFO (a > different John): > > Hi Alan,**** > > I am sorry for the delay in responding – we are just a little short staff > today w/ people out on vacation.****** ** > > As far as sending payments – we will start paying $1,000/month starting > this week. Once we get close to the final payment – we will issue a call > tag or arrange for a truck to pickup the items.**** > > Thank you for your help and I hope your health continues to improve.**** > John > > We received one $1,000 payment a month later and nothing since then. We've > written off the approximately $5,600 still owed us. We have a bunch of > Apollo hardware here that we don't want and can't sell.. We finally > recently used some of it for a trailer/portable system. > > David Katz's suggestion of an Apollo replacement for a TR served as the > trigger for me to finally post our experiences here. Had Apollo kept its > agreement, you'd not be reading this and Apollo would not have to deal with > the effects of my posting my experiences, if any. While their failure to > reimburse us for our troubles is the main reason for this post, I'll repeat > that the equipment itself is not up to the standards of the industry in my > experience, and I'd be cautious about using it in installations. > > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > *al...@positiveenergysolar.com* <al...@positiveenergysolar.com> > NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder and Chief Technology Officer > *Positive Energy, Inc.* > 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) > Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 > *505 424-1112* > *www.positiveenergysolar.com* <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>**** > > ***************** > * > > On 5/1/2013 11:21 AM, David Katz wrote: > > Ray > An Apollo inverter should fit on the same E-panel. I have using one on my > off grid house for may years. They also have great remote monitoring over > the internet. > David Katz > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 30, 2013, at 7:26 PM, "Ray Walters" <r...@solarray.com> > <r...@solarray.com> wrote: > > > I couldn't agree more Bob-O > Pharmaceutical company? Ethics? Opps. > I thought Schneider buying them would help, but they have no idea what > they're even selling these days. Have you seen their website? I can't > even find a spec sheet for the TR in all that "Solutions for PV systems" > mumbo jumbo. > Amazing that the Trace equipment line that basically put PV on the map, > is the bottom of the heap now. > I like your 3C term. I'll put that in our dictionary near PITA ( pain > in the a__ ) factor. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 4/30/2013 5:54 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: > > The TR is a classic example of what I call 3C. Cheap Chinese Crap. If Xantrex > had any ethics at all they would have killed that line and refunded > everyone's dough years ago. > Bob-O > > On Apr 30, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: > > Ray, > > I've got a customer that has the same problem with a dual TR inverter system. > When we first complained, Xantrex promised they were working on a fix. That > never materialized and now the TR is out of production. It's a lousy product > and customer service has been the same. A few months ago, I was asked to > participate in a survey regarding Xantrex products and service. My responses > must have got someone's attention because I got a follow-up call about the > survey. There never has been a follow-up to correct this customer's problem > inverter. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.www.bluemountainsolar.com > t: 541-568-4882 > > On 4/30/2013 3:19 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Hi Folks: > > I just finished up another ugly rewire project for a customer that had > another"installer" put in a Xantrex TR inverter. > We fixed numerous wiring issues, including neutral bonded to ground in 7 > different places! > The issue we're having now though, is that the TR inverter output voltage > fluctuates when running CF lighting, and the refrigerator. > You can literally see the lights cycling brighter and dimmer, and hear the > compressor on the fridge running up and down in frequency. Xantrex/ Schneider > Tech support said that: > A) The TR doesn't do well with CF lighting, and that we should switch to all > incandescent........ hmmmm. > B) We should set the search watts to zero (which I already did) > C) We need to increase the loads on the TR, as it doesn't regulate output > voltage and frequency very well at lower loads........ 2nd big hmmmmm. > > I knew there was a reason I quit installing Xantrex inverters about 5 years > ago, but I couldn't recall the details. Now its all coming back to my > feeble, aging brain. So aside from switching out the inverter , (which I > just installed on a beautiful Midnite E-Panel) does anybody have any cures > for our ills? How would LED lighting behave? Should I throw a capacitor > across the output? or perhaps I should just retire early and sail around the > Caribbean? (I can afford a canoe/ no sail......) > > As always, thanks in advance for this wonderful technical (and emotional) > support group, > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & > settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & > settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & > settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & > settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates *
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