Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules-American crap?

[Ray Walters]

Our only protection at this point is the Wrenches list.  If anybody on the list is seeing premature failures, we need to know.  You folks have saved my tushy many times in the past.  For now, I've stuck mostly with Solar World, and not had problems.  I will not be afraid to call any module manu out if I have to, to help save this industry.  If the failure rate is high enough, and energy production effected enough, I could see Congress even pulling the 30% tax credit. Tying warranties to nondisclosure agreements is bordering on unethical. I always knew something was fishy with modules selling for under $1/ watt R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/29/2013 11:05 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: I find that at least out here in Hawaii, a substantial portion of the PV buying market really doesn’t care what goes on their roof or who puts it up; they just want it now (before the grid gets too saturated and unable to accommodate much more PV) and they want it cheap.  Being in this business for 35 years, I’ve concluded that warranties are mostly smoke and mirrors as far as 10 year or longer coverages, whether coming from manufacturers or integrators.  How many of you bother to put anything away to cover future warranty liabilities?  Doesn’t happen in our business, whether a modco, inverter manufacturer or integrator.  On the flip side, the fact that the costs of going PV have gone down so much means that even if mods and inverters have to be replaced at some point in the future, it shouldn’t cost an arm and a leg.   My theory is that those manufacturers who are mostly or wholly owned subsidiaries of larger, deeper pocketed parent companies are more likely to be left standing in the years to come.  But then, look at BP’s decision to pull out of the PV sphere several years ago and the Schott group’s decision to bail last June.  Maybe all bets are off?   And note that in that New York Times piece of today:  Non-Chinese manufacturers have had quality problems as well. The defective panels installed on the Los Angeles area warehouse, for instance, were made by an American manufacturer. A reporter was granted access to the project on the condition that the parties’ identities not be disclosed because of a confidential legal settlement.   http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&   Names need to be made public for the good of all concerned.   marco   From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules-Chinese crap?   On more than one occasion in the last year or so I have told a potential customer that with the possible exception of Sunpower, and perhaps (vertically-integrated and long-established) Kyocera, I'm not confident that any manufacturer will be still around in 25 years to honor the 25-year warranty that all manufacturers routinely offer. This is also one of my points when I do public presentations (my focus is always on off grid/battery-based applications). It's partly a cautionary note about going for the cheapest price, and the effects of the unsustainable drop in module prices on the global PV industry. It's not just Chinese modules, either. We had BP replace entire arrays of 160s under warranty when 25% showed the familiar hot-spot failure. There is essentially no way to know what's inside of a PV module. The NYTimes article is right on: the emperor has no clothes.  Better to tell the world about the naked emperor sooner than later, so that just possibly the shift can begin, from cheapest overall cost-per-watt to something akin to a system that will last. But I'm not holding my breath: as long as commercial systems are based on short-term third-party financial gain - accelerated depreciation and the 30% federal tax credit - there's no incentive for systems to be built to last, or to cost more than whatever is cheapest up front. Have you reviewed the list of deceased solar companies? https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Rest-in-Peace-The-List-of-Deceased-Solar-Companies This could turn into quite a rant, so <Rant: OFF>. We all just need to be careful what we ask for, because we might get it. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc. 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com     On 5/29/2013 9:01 AM, frenergy wrote: Hilton,           I have not been experiencing anything unusual in failure rates.....of course I have not caved to the up-front lower cost tease of Chinese PVs and have only sold USA made PVs built by manus in biz for decades.  This choice has lost me only a few customers, maybe now they will come back.  It seems interesting to me that you would mention 3 Chinese companies as 'first tier'.  When I think of first tier I think of companies that have been around for much longer than that.           You are absolutely right though, as an industry, "we" need to identify this problem and deal with it now, like now, lest we go the path of solar thermal in the 80's.  Possibly the solar bandwagon has become overloaded?   Bill       ----- Original Message ----- From: Hilton Dier III To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 6:08 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules   Greetings wrenches, I'm sure many of you have seen this article in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?hp&_r=1& I have already gotten an email from a panicked client asking about canceling his project. First question: Has anybody dealt with defective modules lately, and if so, what brands? Second question: How much does this affect first-tier manufacturers (Trina, Suntech, Yingli...) and how much of this is "no-name" brands? Third question: Is this restricted to a particular technology such as thin film? And the big question: How do we deal with this? I can imagine the fossil fuel and nuclear industries promoting this story with enthusiasm. Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Partner, Solar Gain LLC 453 East Hill Rd. Middlesex, VT 05602 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org

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