Robin had a comment on the breaker issue...
I'll just copy and paste since he says it better than I can for this
kind of stuff.
boB
Square D breakers are thermal breakers and are never used on PV
combiners. I am not familiar with any solar applications where thermal
breakers are used on a roof top. They would not be a good choice due to
the high heat on a roof top. Square D thermal breakers are only rated
for 50 volts DC anyway. The solar industry has always used CBI
hydraulic/magnetic breakers up on the roof top for PV combiners. They
come in 150 and 300VDC configurations. Some CBI breakers are also used
for 600VDC disconnects up on the roof. Carling hydraulic/magnetic CX
600V breakers are also used up on the roof for disconnecting combiners.
These breakers will change by about 5% for trip characteristics if laid
on their back. Remember when you mount a breaker facing you and it is
horizontal or vertical, this is still considered the vertical
orientation because the front plane is vertical. PV combiners that use
CBI breakers are made by OutBack and MidNite. There are over 2 million
breakers in the field in all sorts of orientations. No problem with trip
have ever been reported to me. That is a pretty good record. CBI
breakers in the future will be non-polarized in accordance with NEC2014
so they can continue to be used in PV combiners.
On 11/11/2013 2:42 PM, Bill Hoffer wrote:
Dan
Hydraulic actuated breakers like the Classic Heiniman GJ,used in off
grid battery based systems ( now made by Carlon and Airpax, since
Henimans's patent ran out) it is very critical that they be used in
the vertical position as is marked on the breaker's chassis. I know
this from experience because I designed and got UL listed the GFI
breaker ( common tripped GJ breakers with a .5 amp ground circuit,
common today in many systems ) for Trace engineering and it kept
failing the UL test for no apparent reason until we discovered the
technician at UL was testing it on it's back, not in compliance with
their own UL sticker on the device! Go figure.
But in support of Dan's comment, unless marked on the breaker itself,
breaker operation is not dependent on orientation. Water proof rating
of the enclosure is also another matter and the manufacturer should
have specifics as to the mounting angle that keeps the outdoor rating.
The angle can be very critical for any box that uses a lip to deflect
water (NEMA 3R rating) rather than a seal to keep water out at any
orientation (NEMA 4 or better). That is more of the issue here along
with the fact that breakers are operating at less than ideal
temperature ranges for the designed trip levels This would be
relevant to the Square D disconnect that I am familiar with that uses
an overlapping lip to get water spary out for it's 3R rating, if it
was only tested in a vertical position than tiliting it would not be
within the paramaters of the UL listing.
Bill
On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 9:21 AM, Exeltech <exelt...@yahoo.com
<mailto:exelt...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
Wrenches,
There appears to be some misinformation getting into this thread.
The "trip" mechanism within standard thermal over-current
protective devices ("OCP devices") is mechanically spring-loaded,
and is triggered by heat.
Eric mentions below that Square D breakers are tested in a
vertical orientation only - the implication being that's their
only "UL certified" position. If this were true, it would imply
the breakers cannot be used in any other orientation. This would
potentially limit the Square D OCP market to sub-panels and other
enclosures where the devices are vertical. Inasmuch as the vast
majority of panelboards I've encountered in my 40+ years in this
industry have the breakers stacked horizontally, it would not be a
wise business decision for the manufacturer to self-inflict such a
limitation on their product.
This also does not mean any such limitation (real or not) applies
to all breakers.
By way of example, OCP devices work in a horizontal position,
stacked "pancake" style in a main panelboard, as well as
vertically oriented side-by-side in a sub-panel. In either
orientation, they are in full compliance with UL 489, (UL
Standard for Circuit Breakers, Switches, and Circuit Breaker
Enclosures). If an OCP device *was* positionally-sensitive, UL
Standards require this sensitivity to be noted in the
documentation accompanying the device. Further to that point, UL
489 Section 7.1.1.13 states: "In determining if a circuit breaker
complies with the test requirements, the device shall be mounted
or supported as in service and tested under conditions
approximating those of intended operation, except as otherwise noted."
Mounting position notwithstanding, a greater concern would be the
ambient temperature of a rooftop location, whereby summer heat
would tend to make the OCP device more sensitive than necessary,
potentially causing it to trip at an amperage below that of its UL
ratings. While a nuisance, a more serious issue arises when
operating the OCP device in cold ambient conditions, whereby the
device may allow MORE than its rated trip current to flow.
Per UL 489, OCP devices are tested at either 25C or 40C ambient.
Again per UL 489, if an OCP device is to be used in ambient
conditions other than those two ranges, the acceptable temperature
range for that OCP device shall be marked on the body of the device.
In UL 489, Supplemental Annex, Section 2, Subsection 2.3.3,
mechanical vibration testing is conducted with OCP devices
oriented vertically, horizontally, and inclined 30 degrees from
vertical, with all devices energized up to 200% of the device
rated current during the testing.
Given the preceding, and per implication of UL 489 testing
methods, OCP devices are NOT positionally sensitive.
In conclusion, if you DO install a rooftop OCP system, and for
proper protection, please ensure the OCP devices utilized are
rated for the worst-case ambient temperatures involved.
Regards to all,
Dan Lepinski
At 09:33 AM 11/8/2013, you wrote:
Hi Kirpal,
All Square D safety switches are UL tested in the Vertical
position ONLY, so if someone is trying to install a switch in any
other position other than vertical, that will be between them and
the inspector.
Hope this helps.
Eric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED
STATES | Technical Support Representative
Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email:
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<mailto:eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com> | Site:
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<http://www.schneider-electric.com/solar> | Address: 250 South
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