Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps?

Mon, 29 Jul 2019 08:50:41 -0700 

Hi Chris,
Thanks so much for the reference.  I still am at an impasse.  I have an unhappy customer and want to proceed cautiously - Tech support at Radian will only promise 1/2hp per 4 KW radian module - so only 1.5 HP for an 8048 - It's a 2 HP but as  you know HP is not a definitive determinant - field experience shows we can do more but it depends on the situation. I asked Outback engineers if they could work with me in taking field data like inrush etc to determine more exactly.  This particular sewage macerator has high head. 


I called the control panel manufacturer for the sewage pump (attached) 
and they said they couldn't add soft start to a single phase unit. 
Internet research shows you can't do much with single phase with the 
standard VFD (variable frequency drive) but there are other electronic 
approaches but I'm not sure they will work with the existing control panel.


Anyone else with experience that might be relevant?  Thanks!

And thanks again Chris I will make that call - Thanks!

Jeff

Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39 AM:


I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at an 
off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely by 
large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the LRA was 
104 Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a soft start. I 
don't recall the engineer/owners name but he was very knowledgeable. 
His number is 813-601-0947 and web site is gen-pro.biz 
<http://gen-pro.biz>. To finish the client never made the switch from 
generator to solar so I can't say if these units work. Hope this 
provides another option.


Sincerely,
Christopher

/229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
//5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424

//www.solarandwindfx.com <http://www.solarandwindfx.com/> ~ E-mail: 
ch...@solarandwindfx.com <mailto:ch...@solarandwindfx.com>/


/
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Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, 
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are 
willing to work and give to those who would not."




On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater 
<je...@villagepowerdesign.com <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> 
wrote:


    Hey Jerry,

    I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs. 
    but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning. 
    Thanks for the reference!

    Best,

    Jeff

    Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM:


    Wrenches
    I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller
    came from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a
    AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the controller works
    either way
    Jerry

    On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater
    <je...@villagepowerdesign.com
    <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> wrote:

        Thanks Chris!

        Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated
        control - motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did -
        the majority of single phase motors can't use soft start. 
        That is probably a 3-phase motor in that pump that they have
        an inverter for in the controls - or they used a shaded pole
        or spit capacitor single phase motor which can use soft start
        - at least that is what my initial research and phone call to
        the pump control company has thus far revealed.

        Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs
        when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single
        phase doesn't allow you much room to wiggle.

        I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still
        researching but that's my initial findings.

        Anyone know differently?

        Thanks!

        Jeff



        ch...@oasismontana.com <mailto:ch...@oasismontana.com> wrote
        on 7/26/19 9:27 AM:


        Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC
        soft start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and
        #3AS30 Aquavar Solo controller); it’s been running off of my
        2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, when I had to drill a new
        well (the water table is dropping) and pump from about 300
        ft. depth.I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden
        and the usual domestic water loads.It’s worked flawlessly
        since its inception, and I cannot speak more highly of
        Goulds pumps.My first one lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP
        model).

        Best,

        Chris Daum

        Oasis Montana Inc.

        406-777-4309 or 4321

        406-777-4309 fax

        www.oasismontana.com <http://www.oasismontana.com>

        *From:*RE-wrenches
        <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
        <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> *On
        Behalf Of *Dana
        *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM
        *To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' <je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
        <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>; 'RE-wrenches'
        <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
        <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
        *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and
        Sewage Pumps?

        Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+
        years, in spite of doing load evaluations & others
        installing what ever they normally used. It has been a great
        rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish washers, booster pump, etc.

        Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc.

        *C - 208.721.7003 d...@solarwork.com
        <mailto:d...@solarwork.com>*

        Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374

        NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com <http://www.solarwork.com>

        _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _

        *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email.

        *From:*RE-wrenches
        <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
        <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> *On
        Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater
        *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM
        *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
        <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
        *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and
        Sewage Pumps?

        Hey Wrenches,

        Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and
        sewage pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters?

        The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA
        Omnivore Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac.

        Thanks!

        Jeff


        ~~~~~~~~~~~

        Jeff Clearwater
        Village Power Design
        linkedin
        <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
        www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
        cell - 413-559-9763
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


        Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM:

            *Thanks Ray and Jerry,

            Great to hear from you both with your years of combined
            experience :)*

            *So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a
            trusty Radian - _even then from what you are saying it
            may not work._*

            And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate the
            "overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due most
            likely to voltage sag of course.

            *So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5
            second (50 A) might not start - especially with other
            loads on the system?*

            *RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:*

            *Maximum Output Current*
            1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC
            100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC

            *Overload Capability*
            100 ms surge 16.97 kVa
            5 seconds 12 kVa
            30 minute 9 kVa

            *Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump
            motors on a Radian?

            Thanks!

            Jeff*


            Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM:

                I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to
                get an idea what an inverter can really do in the
                real world.  All those millisecond ratings/ in rush
                current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and
                will basically just get you into trouble. The reason
                they have those ratings in amps and not watts, is
                that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge.

                I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a
                pump, compressor, or large table saw, and the
                inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush
                current" was within the theoretical inverter
                capacity.  Actual Wrench list testimonials are much
                more valuable than those arcane specs.

                Ray Walters

                Remote Solar

                303 505-8760

                On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:

                    *Hey There Wrenches,*

                    So be advised that after a little research the
                    SW dual stack will NOT double the surge ratings
                    of a single SW.

                    But that brings me to my second question:
                    *
                    What inverter surge rating should one refer to
                    when looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 
                    100ms?  1 sec?*

                    *Your engineering wisdom welcomed!*

                    Thanks,

                    Jeff



                    Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM:

                        Thanks for the tip!  I'll check the firmware.

                        Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19
                        9:11 AM:

                            Hi Jeff,

                            I am not going to guess if this will
                            work, it should.  I use XW's because
                            they start anything I have come across.

                            If you do this, make sure but SW's have
                            the latest and same firmware. There were
                            problems with stacked SW's early on in
                            their development.

                            **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar**

                            **"we go where powerlines don't"**

                            **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/**

                            **e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
                            <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>**

                            **text 209 813 0060**

                            On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff
                            Clearwater
                            <je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
                            <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com> wrote:

                                Hey Esteemed Wrenches,

                                So I recently built a power trailer
                                with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider
                                SW for a client with a moderate
                                cabin lifestyle.

                                But he lives on a high hill and even
                                though his 2 HP Macerator is only
                                rated at 15 amps continuous that
                                baby starts up with a whopping kick
                                - probably close to or at it's 53
                                Amps Locked Rotor rating.

                                *The SW has the following surge
                                capability:*

                                *SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:*
                                Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts
                                30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts
                                5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts
                                Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts

                                Can I be confidant that 2 stacked
                                SWs will start this baby?

                                *Any experience with similar
                                macerators - or simply educated guesses?
                                *
                                Thanks!

                                Jeff


                            -- 


                            **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar**

                            **"we go where powerlines don't"**

                            **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/**

                            **e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
                            <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>**

                            **text 209 813 0060**




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        -- 
        ~~~~~~~~~~~


        Jeff Clearwater
        Village Power Design
        linkedin
        <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
        www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
        cell - 413-559-9763
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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--

Chris Schaefer’s
<http:www.solarandwindfx.com>
/Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
//5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424

//www.solarandwindfx.com <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: 
ch...@solarandwindfx.com <mailto:ch...@solarandwindfx.com>/


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"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are 
willing to work and give to those who would not."





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