Hey Wrenches,
So the upshot from this soft start thread is it turns out that with
today's electronics just about any motor can be soft start BUT Sewage
Macerator pumps can't! They will most likely clog if started up at
anything but full RPM and torque.
So be aware if a customer you have has a sewage macerator pump -
especially with high head - if they do and you are designing an off-grid
system - suggest you take a Fluke 350 meter or oscilloscope - start the
pump if already installed on a beefy generator and test the inrush and
voltage lag etc.
If not installed you probably need to plan for the full Locked Rotor
Amps (LRA) and get an inverter with a rating that can withstand that for
5 secs.
Thanks to all for your input,
Best,
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/29/19 9:59 AM:
Hey Chris and Wrenches,
So I talked to Steve at Gen Pro and he says that his soft starts are
intended to be used for LRA conditions where there is a load against
the shaft on start-up - although they do do some well pumps. See
below - still searching!
Thanks though cause he is going to have his engineers look at it.
From their website FAQ:
How do I verify SureStart is performing as stated?
To verify LRA reduction in a field installation, technicians will
require a device that can capture inrush current and display this LRA
value in a digital readout. FLUKE® 375 Clamp Meter is one such tool
that is available for field use. Although not as accurate as an
oscilloscope (which is required to test and rate LRA for compressors),
this device should allow field technicians to verify SureStart
performance when used properly.
The LED portal on the front cover of SureStart can also be used to
verify operation. A steady, non-flashing light indicates SureStart is
wired and operating properly. If the LED light is flashing, this
indicates a "fault" condition. Please review Installation
Instructions, Specification Catalog, or Submittal Sets to determine
the fault codes.
Can I apply SureStart to well pumps or other applications?
Although no significant testing has been done, well pump applications
have had SureStart applied successfully. Please review the
requirements for reciprocating/rotary compressors as they pertain to
starting "under a load." SureStart is designed to start direct,
across-the-line motor starts that have ZERO load applied on the motor
shaft. If there is a load on the compressor or pump motor at startup,
SureStart should not be applied.
Compressor motor RLA considerations are also necessary to verify
potential operation.
SureStart should not be applied to "squirrel-cage" or other types of fans.
SureStart is an electrical device and should be mounted in a protected
compartment.
In the future, we hope to publish Specifications for well pump
Best,
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39 AM:
I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at
an off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely
by large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the LRA
was 104 Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a soft
start. I don't recall the engineer/owners name but he was very
knowledgeable. His number is 813-601-0947 and web site is gen-pro.biz
<http://gen-pro.biz>. To finish the client never made the switch from
generator to solar so I can't say if these units work. Hope this
provides another option.
Sincerely,
Christopher
/229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
//5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
//www.solarandwindfx.com <http://www.solarandwindfx.com/> ~ E-mail:
ch...@solarandwindfx.com <mailto:ch...@solarandwindfx.com>/
/
/
Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater
<je...@villagepowerdesign.com <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>>
wrote:
Hey Jerry,
I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs.
but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning.
Thanks for the reference!
Best,
Jeff
Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM:
Wrenches
I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller
came from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a
AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the controller works
either way
Jerry
On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater
<je...@villagepowerdesign.com
<mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> wrote:
Thanks Chris!
Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an
integrated control - motor combo that can soft start like
Franklin did - the majority of single phase motors can't use
soft start. That is probably a 3-phase motor in that pump
that they have an inverter for in the controls - or they
used a shaded pole or spit capacitor single phase motor
which can use soft start - at least that is what my initial
research and phone call to the pump control company has thus
far revealed.
Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs
when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single
phase doesn't allow you much room to wiggle.
I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still
researching but that's my initial findings.
Anyone know differently?
Thanks!
Jeff
ch...@oasismontana.com <mailto:ch...@oasismontana.com> wrote
on 7/26/19 9:27 AM:
Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC
soft start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and
#3AS30 Aquavar Solo controller); it’s been running off of
my 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, when I had to drill a new
well (the water table is dropping) and pump from about 300
ft. depth.I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden
and the usual domestic water loads.It’s worked flawlessly
since its inception, and I cannot speak more highly of
Goulds pumps.My first one lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP
model).
Best,
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
www.oasismontana.com <http://www.oasismontana.com>
*From:*RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> *On
Behalf Of *Dana
*Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM
*To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' <je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
<mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>; 'RE-wrenches'
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well
and Sewage Pumps?
Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+
years, in spite of doing load evaluations & others
installing what ever they normally used. It has been a
great rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish washers, booster
pump, etc.
Dana Orzel Great Solar Works,
Inc.
*C - 208.721.7003 d...@solarwork.com
<mailto:d...@solarwork.com>*
Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com
<http://www.solarwork.com>
_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _
*P*Please consider the environment before printing this email.
*From:*RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> *On
Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater
*Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and
Sewage Pumps?
Hey Wrenches,
Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and
sewage pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters?
The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA
Omnivore Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac.
Thanks!
Jeff
~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM:
*Thanks Ray and Jerry,
Great to hear from you both with your years of combined
experience :)*
*So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a
trusty Radian - _even then from what you are saying it
may not work._*
And you are right Ray - Outback is careful to rate the
"overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due most
likely to voltage sag of course.
*So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5
second (50 A) might not start - especially with other
loads on the system?*
*RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:*
*Maximum Output Current*
1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC
100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC
*Overload Capability*
100 ms surge 16.97 kVa
5 seconds 12 kVa
30 minute 9 kVa
*Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump
motors on a Radian?
Thanks!
Jeff*
Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM:
I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings
to get an idea what an inverter can really do in
the real world. All those millisecond ratings/ in
rush current specs won't get a pump or motor
started, and will basically just get you into
trouble. The reason they have those ratings in amps
and not watts, is that the voltage craters during
that 100mS surge.
I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a
pump, compressor, or large table saw, and the
inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush
current" was within the theoretical inverter
capacity. Actual Wrench list testimonials are much
more valuable than those arcane specs.
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:
*Hey There Wrenches,*
So be advised that after a little research the
SW dual stack will NOT double the surge ratings
of a single SW.
But that brings me to my second question:
*
What inverter surge rating should one refer to
when looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms?
100ms? 1 sec?*
*Your engineering wisdom welcomed!*
Thanks,
Jeff
Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM:
Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware.
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on
7/22/19 9:11 AM:
Hi Jeff,
I am not going to guess if this will
work, it should. I use XW's because
they start anything I have come across.
If you do this, make sure but SW's have
the latest and same firmware. There
were problems with stacked SW's early
on in their development.
**Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar**
**"we go where powerlines don't"**
**http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/**
**e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>**
**text 209 813 0060**
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700,
Jeff Clearwater
<je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
<mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
wrote:
Hey Esteemed Wrenches,
So I recently built a power trailer
with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider
SW for a client with a moderate
cabin lifestyle.
But he lives on a high hill and
even though his 2 HP Macerator is
only rated at 15 amps continuous
that baby starts up with a whopping
kick - probably close to or at it's
53 Amps Locked Rotor rating.
*The SW has the following surge
capability:*
*SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:*
Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts
30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts
5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts
Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts
Can I be confidant that 2 stacked
SWs will start this baby?
*Any experience with similar
macerators - or simply educated
guesses?
*
Thanks!
Jeff
--
**Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar**
**"we go where powerlines don't"**
**http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/**
**e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>**
**text 209 813 0060**
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--
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<http:www.solarandwindfx.com>
/Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
//5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
//www.solarandwindfx.com <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail:
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