Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not necessarily a suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems were/are for me the most reliable and trouble free systems. I'd install one and never hear back from my customer for a decade or more. I regularly see "rats nest" wired 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid systems with Arco panels that still hum along. When I get asked to update these systems, assuming that the power needs haven't grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same (12VDC and 120VAC), sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart shunt/Battery monitor, Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or AGM's. Good for another 20 years with batteries being replaced in 10. With only a few exceptions, every ancient system that I have tried to bring into the 21st century for my low needs off-grid pioneers has been a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers that take a dump after a few years, TMI with new monitor/controllers, and lots of headaches with Lithium.
Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a property with a legacy system and wants to live like they are still in the City, that's an entirely different conversation. My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V, and I live Fat! Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro (150Ws 7 months a year) 2 Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i, 12VDC Sunfrost, 12VDC device charging station, 12VDC UV water disinfection (gravity spring water) on a 12VDC loadcenter (SQD QO), Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC loadcenter for lighting and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a loadcenter that feeds bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to reduce idle consumption). I've never had a problem with this system in 15 years. If I'm not around, or my financials are weak, replacing a piece of equipment won't hurt myself or my wife. If need be, I can charge from a vehicle or farm equipment. And I could pull a battery from something here on the ranch in a pinch. The wiring/installation is clear and I made a manual so that any decent electrician could troubleshoot and make repairs should Todd Cory not be around :) Again, I say all this to provoke a thought experiment. I've installed and replaced hundreds upon hundreds of off-grid systems from pinky dinky to millions and the ones that have worked the best were/are either AC Hydro, old-school (pre-Xantrex) or Schneider/Discover and the latter have had their share of issues. On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 7:34 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a 12VDC > distribution system. I'd have to move them around every week or so to keep > a good contact on the plug in contacts. They seem to work fine on a 24VDC > system. I went to using MNPV or MNDC breakers instead in PV combiner or > other MidNite boxes. QOU breakers are fine, but I don't know of any > standard distribution box for them. > > Brad Bassett > Application Engineer retired > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Dave, >> >> I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those situations. We have a >> couple of barrier islands around here where people have set up what amounts >> to little fish camps that are used infrequently. The islands are also home >> to a few full-time/most-time residents and state parks. Everyone knows >> everyone. The clients are safe and reliable. These sites range from places >> that people paid just tens of thousands of dollars decades ago all the way >> up to many-multi-million dollar strips of sand where very wealthy people >> like to look out over Naples beach a couple times of year from their >> off-grid mansions. It's pretty interesting. >> >> I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times a year on a >> fishing expedition want a band-aid approach. There is no reason to throw >> $100K at a situation like this. In this case, I feel I can get creative to >> meet the very limited 12V and 120V needs while providing a reliable and >> long-lasting solution for around $25K and pocket enough money that I want >> to answer their call in the future. Right now they are getting by with 4 x >> 100W Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank and a Honda EU2000. I'm >> certain they will be blown away with the performance of whatever I propose, >> and happy that it is installed in a safe and professional manner. >> >> The current distribution systems look solid, each protected by a Square D >> QO breaker panel and professionally installed. The power production and >> delivery system is a total kludge that I feel I can fix without too much >> risk. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> How about just buy an RV? >>> >>> Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of the experiences I >>> have had with what I call Offgrid Squalor. >>> >>> Just have to be careful especially these days of druggies, people in >>> vans with no windows, ex paramilitary that went bad, >>> and you get the picture. >>> >>> If you know the person that is the way to keep you and your loved ones >>> safe. Money does talk sometimes and the lack can of it >>> can be a warning. >>> >>> Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are what gets my >>> accountant telling me if you do not charge enough, >>> no one will listen to your advice. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> <https://offgridsolar1.com/> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/> >>> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net <offgridso...@sti.net> >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Jason, >>> Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery >>> charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now >>> with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the >>> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits >>> low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the >>> generator (or it won't start). >>> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. >>> >>> John >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was >>> thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is >>> the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly >>> with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load >>> should be pretty minimal. >>> >>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that >>> cost and complexity if possible. >>> >>> >>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's >>> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Jason, >>> I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V >>> VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very >>> fancy custom control board >>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more >>> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like >>> that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my >>> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a >>> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in >>> place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would >>> not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired >>> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been >>> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. >>> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large >>> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller >>> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my >>> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your >>> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace >>> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V >>> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a >>> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe >>> thats why I never seem to make money.!! >>> >>> John Blittersdorf >>> offgridvermont.com >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any >>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple >>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, >>> for sure. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> <https://offgridsolar1.com/> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/> >>> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net <offgridso...@sti.net> >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a >>> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, >>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run >>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt >>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged >>> through a Trace C40. >>> >>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM >>> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power >>> for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that >>> he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I >>> would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to >>> double or triple his usable capacity. >>> >>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to >>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to >>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace >>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >>> he has an inverter. >>> >>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >>> >>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting >>> an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and >>> monitor things. >>> >>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt >>> inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC >>> converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for >>> his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick >>> with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump >>> which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried >>> about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to >>> size it. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmornings...@gmail.com
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