My understanding is that marriage was strictly civil until some time in the middle ages. For a long time after the organization of the church, in Europe, couples married themselves with an oral commitment, the verbum. The church took no role. Later the custom arose of having a priest present to testify that the verbum took place. However, marriage was declared a sacrament at the Council of Trent, and then turned back to the state during the Reformation.
Marriage is a chiefly a property devising institution through most of recorded history, IMHO. Only after marriage became a sacrament, and then only after marriage for love became more common, have these issues arisen.
All of which is a long way of saying I think we err if we start out assuming marriage to be a chiefly religious institution. There are valid, necessary and significant secular issues involved in the relationships.
Have Americans not already separated marriage from the church, in large measure? One bridal website I found said there are about 2.4 million marriages in the U.S. annually. I haven't found a comparison, but I'd bet about 60% are outside any church. Does anyone have a bead on more solid statistics?
Ed Darrell
Dallas
Paul Finkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Paul Finkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am not sure who the "we" is-- Jews got along fine without state
sanctified marriage for centuries; in most of Western Europe up until I
suppose in the 17th century in some places and in the age of Napoleon
for owthers, marriages were entirely in the hands of the clergy, as was
divorce insome places; what the US did was to secularize "marriage" but
retain the language that came from religion. I am not sure when that
happened; probaby began with the Puritans who on some levels wanted to
separate chruch and state but turning some church issues (marriage,
birth and death records etc.) over to the state. I have always assumed
the French began Civil Unions under Napoleon, leaving "marriage" to the
church.
Richard Dougherty wrote:
> Paul, et al:
>
> I know others have written about this, but at what point did we com! e to view marriage as only or primarily a religious action or institution? Surely lots of cultures have had marriages which were not religious (?) And don't many people today want their
> marriage to be recognized by the state as a marriage, even when they are not religious?
>
> Richard Dougherty
>
> Paul Finkelman wrote:
>
>
>>James makes a good point, and should be taken a step further; have the
>>governemtn get out of the marriage business. Let religious institutions
>>perform marriage and have the government regulate civil unions for all
>>people; civil unions are contracts that cover property, child support
>>and rearing, custody, end of life decisions, etc. All the proper
>>jurisdiction of the state; "marriage" is a relgiious action that should
>>not involve the state. This avoids the "separate but equal" fear of
>>Jean Dudley
>>
>>Paul Finkelman
>>
>>Jean Dudley wrote:
>>
>>>On Mar 15, 2005, at 1:02 PM, James Maule wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Civil birth registration and baptisms/christenings are separate. So,
>>>>too, are death registrations and funerals/memorial services. Why not
>>>>separation of marriage and whatever one wants to call state sanctioning
>>>>of pairing?
>>>>
>>>>Jim Maule
>>>
>>>
>>>Three words: "Separate but equal".
>>>
>>>Marriage is both religious and civil. In contemporary usage, it denotes
>>>those who have undergone either civil or religious ceremonies to
>>>solemnize their relationship. What you are proposing is a shift away
>>>from marriage as a civil right as well as a religious ceremony.
>>>
>>>Of course, the current ! model is to my right; Vermont has "civil unions"
>>>as well as marriage. While mixed-gender couples are allowed to have
>>>civil unions, same-sex couples are not allowed to have marriages.
>>>Further, I'm not sure federal government will recognize civil unions in
>>>place of marriage. If they do, I'd be willing to bet they don't extend
>>>federal marriage rights to gay couples who have joined civilly.
>>>
>>>Jean Dudley
>>>http://jeansvoice.blogspot.com
>>>Future Law Student
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
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>>
>>--
>>Paul Finkelman
>>Chapman Distinguished Professor
>>University of Tulsa College of Law
>>3120 East 4th Place
>>Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499
>>
>>918-631-3706 (office)
>>918-631-2194 (fax)
>>
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
>>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
>>
>>Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages ! that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
>
>
--
Paul Finkelman
Chapman Distinguished Professor
University of Tulsa College of Law
3120 East 4th Place
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499
918-631-3706 (office)
918-631-2194 (fax)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_______________________________________________
To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
_______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
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