The assumption that many of us do "bristle" is
indeed correct -- I know I do (and more importantly, my kids do). But geez
-- it's only bristling, not outrage.
That is to say: The point is not that
"bristling deserves accommodation." It probably does; but big deal.
Rather, the point is that my religion deserves respect (not
accommodation) -- or rather, that each of us deserves the basic respect of not
having our vendors simply assume we all celebrate the same
(majoritarian) holidays. The "longstanding tradition" has been to act as
if all customers are Christians. Sure, the majority of people
"enjoy" it -- because in their case, the assumption, the generalization, is
correct. That's a tradition worth changing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Volokh, Eugene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Law & Religion issues for Law Academics"
<religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 3:34
PM
Subject: RE: The Holiday That Dare Not Speak Its
Name
non-Christians bristle at being wished "Merry Christmas" -- and that
this bristling deserves accommodation, as a business matter and as a
manners matter -- but that Christians *do not* bristle at the
generification of a longstanding tradition that they have enjoyed, and
they see (with good reason, in my view and in Rick's) as innocent and
harmless, or that their bristling doesn't deserve accommodation. And if
Rick is right that many Christians do bristle at this, then it makes
sense for Rick and others like him to urge people to make this bristling
known, lest it otherwise be assumed not to exist and therefore be
ignored.
I myself would prefer that people would bristle less at such things
in either direction. But when some forcefully speak out on one side of
the matter, and demand that businesses change their practices -- even if
no legal threat accompanies the demand -- then it's hard to condemn
others' forcefully speaking out on the other side.
Eugene
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Lederman
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 12:28 PM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: The Holiday That Dare Not Speak Its Name
"I am also extremely annoyed by businesses tha direct employees to wish
us only a generic "Happy Holidays" while simultaneously attempting to
profit by selling Chrstmas presents to millions of Christmas shoppers."
Yes, it is annoying, isn't it -- and inexplicable, from a business
standpoint -- when businesses stop presuming that all their customers
are Christians.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Duncan
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 3:20 PM
Subject: The Holiday That Dare Not Speak Its Name
Well, I think there is an attack on Christmas celebrations in public
places (both government and business), but I am not as pessimistic as
Rabbi Spero about how successful it will be.
I am also extremely annoyed by businesses tha direct employees to wish
us only a generic "Happy Holidays" while simultaneously attempting to
profit by selling Chrstmas presents to millions of Christmas shoppers.
The idea that celebrating Chrstmas in private businesses open to the
public is somehow intolerant may well come from EC decisions that equate
religious "endorsements" with creating classes of outsiders. The
jurisprudence of the Supreme Court is a seminar, and many businesses may
have learned from it that to endorse religious holidays is somehow to be
guilty of intolerance, of sending a message to some of their customers
that they are unwelcome.
The big Christmas movie this year will be The Lion, the Witch, and the
Wardrobe, a film about the land of Narnia, where "it is always winter
but never Christmas." But that need not be the story of America.
It is not intolerant for government or business to recognize that we are
a nation of many communities who celebrate many different events and
holidays. As Seamus
Hasson says in his excellent book, The Right to Be Wrong, "an authentic
pluralism...allows all faiths into the public square--where the
government's own cultural efforts reflect those of the people and the
communities it serves." (p.130)
Come to think of it, The Right to be Wrong would make a great Christmas
(or Hanukkah) present for someone on your list.
Cheers, Rick Duncan
"Friedman, Howard M." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I must say, I find the exercise of claiming that Christmas is under
attack both distressing and amusing. Everyone seems to agree that
government cannot promote one religion over another, so insofar as
complaints are about governmental action (like renaming city Christmas
trees as Holiday trees), religious people seem to be arguing that we
should find Christmas really to be a secular holiday. Many of the
complaints, though, like the linked Human Events column, complain that
private businesses are slighting Christmas. This, of course, has
nothing to do with the First Amendment. Instead, having reached the
limit of converting Christmas into a commercial holiday, merchants have
branched out to try to turn other minor occassions that occur around t!
he same time into excuses for equally extravagant spending on gifts. If
anyone should complain, it should be other religious groups, for society
is more and more telling them that their minor holidays (such as
Hanukkah) really should be seen as a celebration as important as
Christmas. One of the important purposes of the Establishment Clause was
to prevent the distortion of religious doctrine by governments. The
distortion of religious doctrine by Madison Avenue however is another
story.
*************************************
Howard M. Friedman
Disting. Univ. Professor Emeritus
University of Toledo College of Law
Toledo, OH 43606-3390
Phone: (419) 530-! 2911, FAX (419) 530-4732
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*************************************
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Rick Duncan
Sent: Mon 11/28/2005 12:30 PM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Once Upon A Time When America Had Christmas
Rabbi Aryeh Spero has this interesting column online at Human Events. I
don't know Rabbi Spero, but I very much enjoyed his little cautionary
tale set in December 2030.
Rick Duncan
Rick Duncan
Welpton Professor of Law
University of Nebraska College of Law
Lincoln, NE 68583-0902
"Merry Christmas--It's ok to say it." --Alliance Defense Fund Slogan
"When the Round Table is broken every man must follow either Galahad or
Mordred: middle things are gone." C.S.Lewis, Grand Miracle
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or
numbered." --The Prisoner
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
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Rick Duncan
Welpton Professor of Law
University of Nebraska College of Law
Lincoln, NE 68583-0902
"Merry Christmas--It's ok to say it." --Alliance Defense Fund Slogan
"When the Round Table is broken every man must follow either Galahad or
Mordred: middle things are gone." C.S.Lewis, Grand Miracle
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or
numbered." --The Prisoner
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
_______________________________________________
To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see
http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as
private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are
posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly
or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
_______________________________________________
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To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
_______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
