Re: Teenagers &The Spirit of Liberty

[Steven Jamar]

I guess it is a "loophole" in the sense that if the students respected the spirit of the EC, they would be less likely to trip along the edges of it like this. There are good reasons for the EC and for the sharper separation of church and state.  Keeping religious practices out of public governmental ceremonies such as public school graduation advances those purposes.  Students finding ways around the constitutional limits of EC in violation of the spirit and countering the purposes of the EC do constitute a loophole -- at least from a policy perspective. Steve On May 23, 2006, at 3:18 PM, Rick Duncan wrote: I enjoy the Religion Clause blog a great deal. Howard is doing a great job there.   But is it really a "loophole" for students to engage in non-school sponsored prayer at their own commencement? Could a federal court ever properly employ the EC to enjoin the entire senior class--students not school officials-- from praying at their own graduation?   It is one thing to say that the EC forbids the school from sponsoring prayer at commencement--including by giving a student chaplain preferential access to the podium for the purpose of praying. It is a very different thing to say that the EC somehow forbids students--either individually or collectively--from simply praying out loud without school sponsorship at their graduation ceremony. The EC applies only to government sponsored prayer. It is not a loophole--but rather a basic limitation of the EC--to say that the EC does not apply to the non-sponsored religious _expression_ of students who merely happen to be attending a public school ceremony.   Cheers, Rick   Cheers, Rick "Friedman, Howard M." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: For a somewhat different take on this, see my Religion Clause blog post titled “Looking for Establishment Clause Loopholes” at http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2006/05/commentary-looking-for-establishment.html     ************************************* Howard M. Friedman Disting. Univ. Professor Emeritus University of Toledo College of Law Toledo, OH 43606-3390 Phone: (419) 530-2911, FAX (419) 530-4732 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ************************************* From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Rick Duncan Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:04 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Teenagers &The Spirit of Liberty   Link (See also link)   Excerpt from the second link):     High School Students Defy ACLU and Court May 20, 2006 01:43 PM EST   By Sher Zieve – Despite U.S. District Judge Joseph McKinley’s ruling that no prayer was to be allowed at Kentucky’s Russell County High School commencement ceremonies, at least 200 students recited the Lord’s Prayer during the ceremony. The ACLU had argued to have prayer banned at graduation, due to a complaint from 1 student. Thunderous applause is said to have broken out towards the end of the prayer and senior Megan Chapman continued with her praise, when she said that her fellow students should trust God as they continue their lives after high school. Chapman commented "It [the prayer] made the whole senior class come together as one and I think that's the best way to go out", then added: "More glory went to God because of something like that than if I had just simply said a prayer like I was supposed to."   Every year in May there are stories of liberty like these.   I love it when young men and women take a stand for free speech and religious liberty!      Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902   "It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence."  --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience)   "Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perversion of the best is the worst." -- Id. Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. _______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902   "It's a funny thing about us human beings: not many of us doubt God's existence and then start sinning. Most of us sin and then start doubting His existence."  --J. Budziszewski (The Revenge of Conscience)   "Once again the ancient maxim is vindicated, that the perversion of the best is the worst." -- Id. Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. _______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private.  Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. --  Prof. Steven D. Jamar                             vox:  202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law                     fax:  202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW                   mailto:s[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC  20008   http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar/ "To see a World in a Grain of Sand  And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,  Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand  And Eternity in an hour. " William Blake

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