Not a great deal of difference between these entities, IMHO.
Jim
James P. Cline
Materials Measurement Science Division
National Institute of Standards and Technology
100 Bureau Dr. stop 8520 [ B113 / Bldg 217 ]
Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8523 USA
jcl...@nist.gov
(301) 975 5793
FAX (301) 975 5334
From: rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr [mailto:rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr] On Behalf
Of Darren Broom
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:17 AM
To: Young Lindsay Kay; rietveld_l@ill.fr
Subject: Re: Powder Diffraction Discussion Group on Facebook
On a related note, with regard to accessing Facebook at work, I generally
only use it to keep in touch with friends; and I try to avoid mixing the
two. I'm sure I'm not alone in doing this.
For work-related activities, etc, I tend to use LinkedIn.
Best regards,
Darren
-----Original Message-----
From: lindsay.yo...@rockets.utoledo.edu
Sent: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 14:40:31 +0000
To: rietveld_l@ill.fr
Subject: Re: Powder Diffraction Discussion Group on Facebook
As one of the younger members of the list, I would like to add a few
points.
I may never have found this list on my own if my advisor was not kind enough
to point it out to me. I have never seen a mailing list before in my life :)
To that end social media outlets may be helpful for newcomers. But I am
very happy to be a member and will gladly learn/join whatever format is
chosen. So many people helped me get to where I am today by kindly answering
my basic questions that I feel obligated to do the same for other
newcomers.
I strongly believe in open-mindedness toward the new. Regardless, I think
that social media may be most useful for publicity and outreach if we wish
to seek out new members, but I don't think social media formats
are friendly to discussion. Facebook's format, for example, would not allow
for easy archiving of replies and they would easily become buried as time
passed. Another problem with social media is that for those who are at work
or school, being seen on facebook or other social media may be forbidden if
not frowned upon, even if they were being honestly productive.
I agree that fewer streams of consciousness are preferable. If we wish to
move at all, I propose that a forum format may be the best for
consideration?
____________________________________________________________________________
From: rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr <rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr> on behalf of
Daxu Liu <daxu...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 9:06 AM
To: Leopoldo Suescun; rietveld_l@ill.fr
Subject: Re: Powder Diffraction Discussion Group on Facebook
Dear prof. Suescun,
I agree with you, and I have written to you some times ago. You do be an
enthusiastic and generous man. Thank you very much!
Yes, many beginners do ask lots of basic points on crystallography and some
basic steps on how to use some refinement programmes, and I was one of them.
However, someone has no choice to ask someone for help because he/she maybe
study oneself, and crystallography is not his/her major. I was crazy on the
Rietveld method in the past just for the interest, and I had to write to
some people for help because I can not solve some problems even after I
searched the answers in Google or other search engines. I am very
appreciated for those people who helped me like you and Dr. Toby, Brian H.,
and Dr. Rodriguez-Carvajal, J. and other respectable and kind people.
I have studied the Rietveld method for eight years myself through the web
and reading some books, and I have published few papers on it, which are
colsely related to my research areas.
In a word, I feel, if you know about it and have spare time, it will be
possible to encourage and help someone greatly when you answer his or her
some basic questions (maybe stupied questions,:) ).
Best regards, Daxu
____________________________________________________________________________
From: Leopoldo Suescun <leopo...@fq.edu.uy>
To: "rietveld_l@ill.fr" <rietveld_l@ill.fr>
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: Powder Diffraction Discussion Group on Facebook
Dear Colleagues,
IMHO the Rietveld List is for rather advanced students and scientists that
are rather fanatic, not for the kind of beginners that may look for
assistance in facebook.
One of such students will find our discussions impossible to understand at
minimum if not simply crazy, full of self-references, old discussions and
rivalries. We have even read some rude replies to students whose knowledge
was evidently far below the minimum required to perform a meaningful
refinement, or question to the list. So maybe it would not be advisable for
a very young and untrained student to join our list and ask very basic
questions.
I think the facebook page will reach to other public that will never come to
us on a first basis and probably shouldn?t, but that will eventually be ready
for the list after some time.
One point in favor of the facebook discussion group or other social media
channels is that all of our Universities and Institutes(*see below) are on
Facebook/Twitter/RG, etc, and more and more "younger" and not quite
colleagues are using them too, for dissemination of careers, teaching
programs, events, job advertising, and even knowledge, so denying that
Facebook, Twitter, Research Gate, etc. may be of help to disseminate the
Rietveld Method in particular and knowledge in general is like denying
reality.
I?m not going to judge if the for-profit, business oriented attitude of the
companies that manage these social networks is favorable for spreading
science or not (probably not), but it may be a good idea that we use the
networks to allow younger colleagues becoming crystallographers to learn the
science from scientists and eventually lead them to the Rietveld List when
they have enough knowledge to ask meaningful questions.
Actually the IUCr (our IUCr) is in Facebook and I have participated in
discussion where it is is looking for ways to spread the knowledge by all
possible means, so I bet authorities will salute this move towards modern
(not necessarily better, I agree) tools.
As much as I have replied to crystallography questions in this list and
Research Gate I?ll do the same on Facebook, Twitter or whatever other forum I?m
at, and will suggest students seeking for deeper understanding to walk the
way by themselves reading books, papers and why not the Rietveld Mailing
Archive, and eventually seeking support from well trained scientists in the
Rietveld List. And I foresee many links in Facebook to the
rietveld_list_archives for everyone to use this accumulated knowledge,
while Mark Zuckerberg tries to sell them X-ray instruments, or X-files DVDs
or X-plane tickets or whatever the automatic software that drops
advertisement in our screen understands of what we talk about...
With best regards,
Leo
* List of important labs and universities I found in Facebook in 1 minute
search:
https://www.facebook.com/iucr.org?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/cnrs.fr?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Institut-Laue-Langevin-ILL/148452651846298?f
ref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/pages/DESY/103119693061304?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/MITnews?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/imperialcollegelondon?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/usnistgov?fref=ts
need more?
2015-06-10 16:29 GMT-03:00 AICr2014 <cristalogra...@fq.edu.uy>:
Dear Colleagues,
IMHO the Rietveld List is for rather advanced students and scientists that
are rather fanatic, not for the kind of beginners that may look for
assistance in facebook.
One of such students will find our discussions impossible to understand at
minimum if not simply crazy, full of self-references, old discussions and
rivalries. We have even read some rude replies to students whose knowledge
was evidently far below the minimum required to perform a meaningful
refinement, or question to the list. So maybe it would not be advisable for
a very young and untrained student to join our list and ask very basic
questions.
I think the facebook page will reach to other public that will never come to
us on a first basis and probably shouldn?t, but that will eventually be ready
for the list after some time.
One point in favor of the facebook discussion group or other social media
channels is that all of our Universities and Institutes(*see below) are on
Facebook/Twitter/RG, etc, and more and more "younger" and not quite
colleagues are using them too, for dissemination of careers, teaching
programs, events, job advertising, and even knowledge, so denying that
Facebook, Twitter, Research Gate, etc. may be of help to disseminate the
Rietveld Method in particular and knowledge in general is like denying
reality.
I?m not going to judge if the for-profit, business oriented attitude of the
companies that manage these social networks is favorable for spreading
science or not (probably not), but it may be a good idea that we use the
networks to allow younger colleagues becoming crystallographers to learn the
science from scientists and eventually lead them to the Rietveld List when
they have enough knowledge to ask meaningful questions.
Actually the IUCr (our IUCr) is in Facebook and I have participated in
discussion where it is is looking for ways to spread the knowledge by all
possible means, so I bet authorities will salute this move towards modern
(not necessarily better, I agree) tools.
As much as I have replied to crystallography questions in this list and
Research Gate I?ll do the same on Facebook, Twitter or whatever other forum I?m
at, and will suggest students seeking for deeper understanding to walk the
way by themselves reading books, papers and why not the Rietveld Mailing
Archive, and eventually seeking support from well trained scientists in the
Rietveld List. And I foresee many links in Facebook to the
rietveld_list_archives for everyone to use this accumulated knowledge,
while Mark Zuckerberg tries to sell them X-ray instruments, or X-files DVDs
or X-plane tickets or whatever the automatic software that drops
advertisement in our screen understands of what we talk about...
With best regards,
Leo
* List of important labs and universities I found in Facebook in 1 minute
search:
https://www.facebook.com/iucr.org?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/cnrs.fr?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Institut-Laue-Langevin-ILL/148452651846298?f
ref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/pages/DESY/103119693061304?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/MITnews?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/imperialcollegelondon?fref=ts
need more?
--
Enviado desde mi m?vil.
Prof. Dr. Leopoldo Suescun
Cryssmat-Lab/DETEMA, Facultad de Qu?mica, Universidad de la Rep?blica,
Montevideo, Uruguay.
El jun 9, 2015 4:15 AM, "Radovan Cerny" <radovan.ce...@unige.ch> escribi?:
Too many channels = crystallographer's death (freely translated from an old
proverb "Too many hunters= rabbit's death).
Rather to express my opinion that if you have too many options where to look
for an info, you spend too much time before you find it.
Why the troglodytes should learn Facebook? Why do not the younger and more
up-to-date researcher use the email?
Radovan Cerny
Laboratoire de Cristallographie, DQMP
Universit? de Gen?ve
24, quai Ernest-Ansermet
CH-1211 Geneva 4, Switzerland
Phone : [+[41] 22] 37 964 50, FAX : [+[41] 22] 37 961 08
mailto : radovan.ce...@unige.ch
URL : http://www.unige.ch/sciences/crystal/cerny/rcerny.htm
-----Message d'origine-----
De : rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr [mailto:rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr] De la part
de LUIS MARIA RODRIGUEZ LORENZO
Envoy? : mardi 9 juin 2015 08:15
? : rietveld_l@ill.fr
Objet : Re: Powder Diffraction Discussion Group on Facebook
hehe, well played Lubo. People can define themselves as they wish, the
problem is the impression we produce in others with our self-definitions.
still the more channels people have to reach information , the best, and as
someone says before, if it does not work it will fade out with no damage.
Quoting Lubomir Smrcok <uachs...@savba.sk>:
Dear Luis,
I always find weird and sort of funny when someone cannot accept that
some people could call themselves troglodites meaning that they are
not very enthusiastic about ALL what other people call new and
progressive or even an innovation. This is how I understand Larry's
comment.
Personally, though I am younger than him I do not feel like a
second-rate human being or depleted of any important scientific
information when I completely ignore facebook and its clones. This way
of communication or, better, its information contents, strongly
resembles that described in Brave New World by A.Huxley. Though
published in 1932, it has been somehow ahead of the times.
A word of warning for facebookers : be careful, this is a book (check
the word with any good on-line service). Fortunately, it is offered
also for Kindle so no worry for being seen with a pretty thick piece
of paper.
Best,
Lubo
On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, LUIS MARIA RODRIGUEZ LORENZO wrote:
Dear all,
Although not an active player on this list, except maybe in my early
days in late 90,s,(science , took me in a different
direction) I still keep track of what is happening in "the Refinement
world" and i would like to add my thoughts on this non technical
matter.
The generation of people called millennials and young scientists
among them, get inform through facebook and similar. That link them
to several sources of information without attaching them to one
single source .
A facebook page related and linked to this discussion group could be
the gate to new researchers (students) to this page and have a
positive influence on the size of this community and their access to
the very specific questions and knowledge that are usually discussed
here. Their alternative can be the use of the potent available
software to have results without guidance (e.g after , no sensible
responses have been obtained through linkedyn or research gate, to
name some, because nobody with the right expertise is there). It does
not have to be a different or parallel discussion group, and it does
not imply that you have to join or use any new group. it is most
likely to have a positive effect or maybe just null in the worst
scenario.
In a more personal opinion , i always find weird and sort of funny,
when people, whose work is to develop and spread knowledge, is proud
to be a "troglodite" and do not dare to experience innovation.
Facebook does not change the way Science "should" be done but it may
change the way of communicating .
Please dont take offence for my last comment , that is out of my purpose.
Best regards
Luis
Quoting Reinhard Kleeberg <kleeb...@mineral.tu-freiberg.de>:
To be honest, I can't imagine that crystallographic knowledge can be
effectively transmitted via facebook. Probably one could safe time
by reading some basic textbooks instead of "liking" and "following".
The same holds for other "asocial" (Lubo, I like this
statement!) networks like researchgate, what also waste the time
even of uninvolved people by spamming, just for generating profits
by the companies.
The central points have already been fixed by Alan:
The advantage of the Rietveld mailing list is that contributions
aren't anonymous, it is not commercial and no use is made of users'
information, publicity is limited, and there is a structured archive
of discussion that is open to all, even those who don't have an account.
This is like science should be. Alan, thank you very much for all
your altruistic efforts with the list!
Greetings
Reinhard
Am 08/06/2015 um 14:00 schrieb Davide Levy:
I want say something more about my decision to open the group in FB.
There is many people the use the Rietveld method as a magic black box:
insert the data, read the cif of the phase and obtain the results.
Then they say "twenty-one" and "forty-one" when they see a symmetry
group!
Maybe a POP-group in FB can teach more about crystallography to a
larger group of scientist!
this is my opinion.
Davide
-----Original Message-----
From: rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr
[mailto:rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr] On Behalf Of Lubomir Smrcok
Sent: 08 June, 2015 2:49 PM
To: Alan Hewat
Cc: rietveld_l@ill.fr
Subject: Re: Powder Diffraction Discussion Group on Facebook
Dear Alan,
There are plenty of people who call usage of so-called social
networks (they are, in fact, very asocial) "a progress". I would
suggest to consider De gustibus non est disputandum, but also Duo
cum faciunt idem, non est idem.
Although I am not member of any of those asocial nets and do not
plan to be, I sometimes think of the end of such services like
Gopher. Maybe we have around a generation, who prefers to share
instead of to search, think & write. What a prefect opportunity for
commercial companies :-)
Best,
Lubo
On Mon, 8 Jun 2015, Alan Hewat wrote:
I can understand that people have different ideas about the ideal
format for discussion, and for some of us email may seem a little
"old fashioned". I suppose we could also use Twitter or any of the
other social chattering forums. But multiple groups on the same
subject disperses the available information, and it would be good
to have some kind of consensus rather than individual initiatives.
The advantage of the Rietveld mailing list is that contributions
aren't anonymous, it is not commercial and no use is made of users'
information, publicity is limited, and there is a structured
archive of discussion that is open to all, even those who don't have
an account.
I myself simply inherited the list, but think it worth
maintaining, and would discourage members from posting to multiple
groups on the same subject.
Alan. (What, me worry ? :-)
On 8 June 2015 at 09:24, davide levy <davide.lev...@gmail.com> wrote:
Good Morning
I created the Powder Diffraction Discussion Group on Facebook,
to speak about powder diffraction, Rietveld etc.. open for all
use powder diffraction.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1087352967946225/
Davide
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please do NOT attach files to the whole list
<alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr> eg:
HELP as the subject with no body text The Rietveld_L list archive
is on http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--
______________________________________________
Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics, Grenoble, FRANCE
<alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> +33.476.98.41.68
http://www.NeutronOptics.com/hewat
______________________________________________
--
TU Bergakademie Freiberg
Dr. R. Kleeberg
Mineralogisches Labor
Brennhausgasse 14
D-09596 Freiberg
Tel. ++49 (0) 3731-39-3244
Fax. ++49 (0) 3731-39-3129
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please do NOT attach files to the whole list <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com>
Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr> eg: HELP as the subject with no body text
The Rietveld_L list archive is on
http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--
Dr. Leopoldo Suescun
Prof. Agr (Assoc. Prof.) de F?sica Tel: (+598) 29290705/29249859
Cryssmat-Lab./C?tedra de Fisica/DETEMA Fax: (+598) 29241906*
Facultad de Quimica, Universidad de la Republica. Montevideo, Uruguay
Ahora la cristalograf?a importa m?s (www.iucr.org) Crystallography Matters more.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please do NOT attach files to the whole list <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com>
Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr> eg: HELP as the subject with no body text
The Rietveld_L list archive is on
http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
