Hi Mirjam, all,
See my responses below in-line.
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
El 16/2/22 14:45, "ripe-list en nombre de Mirjam Kuehne"
<ripe-list-boun...@ripe.net en nombre de m...@zu-hause.nl> escribió:
Dear colleagues,
On 26 January we held an online meeting to gather feedback about the
revised Policy Development Process (PDP). The recordings, minutes and
slides can be found here:
https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/ripe-community-plenary/minutes/revised-pdp-workshop/
Below you can find a short summary of the main points discussed at the
meeting. Based on this feedback we adjusted the draft document and
created a new red-lined version:
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-documents/other-documents/policy-development-process-in-ripe-v2
Please review the changes carefully and provide any additional feedback
before 16 March 2022.
Kind regards,
Mirjam Kühne
============
Meeting Summary:
The overall sentiment was to rely on community consensus and common
sense as much as possible and to keep formalism at a minimum.
1. Author and Ownership of the Document
There was general agreement to make a distinction between the author and
owner of the PDP: the community should be listed as owner of the PDP and
the RIPE Chair as the author of the document. [1]
[Jordi] Well, I don't think we can talk about "general agreement" while some
people still disagree with valid objections. Moreover, I don't think my point
was correctly taken in the minutes. What I'm saying is that all the RIPE
community documents have authors. Actually, I will say that the initial authors
become editors ASAP the doc is released to the community for discussion and the
goal of the authors (now editors), is to capture the inputs from the community
so to be able to reach consensus.
I agree that all the documents must cite the original authors for archive and
history tracking purposes. What I disagree is that the authors are named as an
ack in the final document, unless we do that for *all the documents* so they
don't become discriminatory towards some authors. For example: If you look at
different policies, some authors made sure that their names are in the policy
text, some others not. My personal perspective on this is that once a document
reach consensus, because it is a community work, authors should not be part of
the text of the policy. Again, they are still visible in the "proposal web
page", but not in the final "policy web page" (or the PDF, etc.).
If we decide that the original authors should be in the final policy text, then
it should be the same for *ALL*, not some yes, some not. Something like the ack
section as we do in IETF docs, etc.
A couple of examples of this for both cases, looking at the latest document
discussed, and not trying to "accuse" anyone about that, it is just something
we have done wrong, and we shall correct from now on:
Documents that don't mentions authors:
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-738 vs the latest proposal for this
doc (where authors are cited)
https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2019-06
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-733 vs the latest proposal for this
doc (where authors are cited)
https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2019-05 and
https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2019-02
Documents that mention authors explicitly:
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-731 vs the latest proposal for this
doc (where authors are cited)
https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2018-06.
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-705 vs the latest proposal for this
doc (where authors are cited)
https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2017-02
Now, saying the PDP that the Chair is the formal author is wrong, because that
is like saying that only the Chair can work on that. This is a discrimination
and we have already seen that, so this is an objective fact. When I summited a
proposal for addressing changes in the appeal, my proposal was ignored, so a
clear lawful discrimination (at least for many democratic countries and our
rules can't be dictatorial and against law - we can't say "blue hair persons
summiting documents will be ignored" because it is illegal). Anyone in the
community, where we are all equal, can suggest a change in the PDP, the same
that anyone can suggest a change in any other document, policy, etc.
I don't think we need at all this text "The community owns the PDP. The RIPE
Chair is formally the author of the document", because this is our standard for
all the documents.
If we want to make sure that this is "stated" for all the documents, not just
for the PDP, then we should have a paragraph, may be a specific section,
addressing that, for example:
"The community owns all the documents. Each WG chair(s) are responsible for the
consensus process and in the case of the PDP updates, the Chair(s) are the
responsible."
I also believe that "Everything else, such as RIPE NCC business practices,
procedures and operations is out of scope." is unnecessary. Everyone
participating shall understand the difference in between NCC and the community.
However I'm fine to keep it.
2. Scope of the Document
There was agreement to shorten the introduction of the document to
clarify that the PDP only refers to policy. There was also agreement to
keep the section about values and principles.
[Jordi] I don't think this is acceptable: "Avoid creating a formal proposal in
case there is insufficient interest". Our PDP is based on consensus. To declare
non-consensus only *justified objections* shall be considered, like in IETF.
Consensus is not about personal opinions or business conveniences; it is about
finding what is best for the overall community. An idea or proposal can be
unpopular for some business and they can decide to stay silent, and may be
nobody from the community (apart from the authors) speak up in favor of the
proposed idea: however it is clear that is the right thing to do, and
consequently the authors have the right to submit a proposal and only
non-consensus could be declared if the authors were wrong that it was a bad
idea *because* objective and justified objections have been raised in the
discussion.
3. Changes to PDP
Most people agreed that the scope of the Policy Development Process
should be limited to creating policy. It should not be used to change
the PDP itself or other RIPE governance documents. It was suggested
however to carefully manage the change process including clear deadlines
and announcements to ensure proper community consensus building.
[Jordi] This may be an English issue, but for non-native it creates some
troubles and misinformation, I realized it when working not only in RIPE but in
other RIRs and already suggested in other cases to amend this. Proposals can be
"withdrawn" or "abandoned" and we shall differentiate it. A proposal is
abandoned when authors no longer respond (if it was interesting for the
community this may turn into new editors taking over). A proposal is withdrawn
by the proposer(s) or WG chairs decision. I think we should clearly define
"abandoned" in the section 2.2 and it can be done in such way that doesn't need
to be mention again in the rest of the text. Something like:
"Abandoned: Meaning that the authors, during the PDP flow for a proposal,
aren't longer responding to the WG Chairs and/or RIPE NCC staff. If the
proposal is still interesting for the community, WG Chairs could openly seek
for new editors to continue the PDP process."
4. Re-introducing Informal Discussion Step
There was strong agreement to re-introduce this step and that gathering
support prior to a formal proposal is crucial.
[Jordi] As said, and properly justified above, this is contradictory with the
consensus definition. A previous discussion may be good, but can't be a must at
all and it should be clear that WG Chairs have *never* the right to avoid a
proposal being submmited.
5. Appeals Procedure – Process, Deadlines, Recusals
There was general agreement to have a well defined appeals procedure
with clear deadlines and a certain level of formalism. Some people
suggested to create a separate appeals body. Others felt that it will be
difficult to find people and that the WG chairs tend to have experience
with the PDP.
[Jordi] Again, no general agreement can be declared here (in the current text)
if there are valid objections and my objection is based on objective facts.
There were WGCC that participated in the discussion a recent appealed proposal
and they didn't recuse themselves. This clearly demonstrates, that the current
procedure doesn't work, it is unfair and subjective.
[Jordi] I strongly disagree with section "5. Changes to the PDP". The PDP
changes must be objectively done *the same* as any other document, and for that
it need to have a very well-defined procedure, timings, etc.. Not doing so
creates "juridical insecurity", and having "juridical insecurity" in our master
document it is the worst think we can do. I don't mind if we don't want to call
it a policy (as in the other RIRs, which I think is the right way) or not; I
don't mind if we have edited it in previous occasions following the PDP or not.
Is time to resolve it forever. Either we clearly state that the PDP uses the
PDP to self-modify it (as in the other RIRs), or we define very clearly how we
do it step by step, and this seems to me more complex and unnecessary vs using
the PDP itself.
6. Editorial Changes
There was no disagreement about the suggested editorial changes.
---
[1] There was a question if the RIPE Vice Chair should also be listed.
However, ripe-714 provides the option for the RIPE Chair to delegate to
others, e.g. a Vice Chair.
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