Mod hat: This thread has become pretty off-topic. Let's wind it down and move any specific questions or concrete proposals regarding Rust to a new, separate thread.
Please familiarize yourself with the "Conduct" section of https://github.com/mozilla/rust/wiki/Note-development-policy , particularly these parts: "Respect that people have differences of opinion and that every design or implementation choice carries a trade-off and numerous costs. There is seldom a right answer. Please keep unstructured critique to a minimum. If you have solid ideas you want to experiment with, make a fork and see how it works." In particular, discussing the merits or lack thereof of C or Java syntax is out of scope for this mailing list. I understand that this subject came up because it was cited as a reason for Rust's syntax, but as several people have said, these decisions have been made and won't be revisited (except, *perhaps*, in the presence of a concrete proposal and preferably an implementation). Also, please avoid suggesting that people who do or don't like a particular syntax haven't expanded their mind; it's okay for different people to have different opinions about language design, and choosing any one approach doesn't mean we think less of people who prefer other ones. Cheers, Tim On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Greg <g...@kinostudios.com> wrote: > Thanks John, for the friendly email. :-) > > The choice of the Rust team to adopt a C++-like syntax was very deliberate, > and I'm confident that the members of this team still believe that was the > right choice. > > > I wonder, right for what reason? Do they actually *like* it? I wrote a lot > of code in C++ back in the day. Can't touch the stuff anymore. *shudders* > > Or is it 'right' because it's familiar to C++ developers? > > I should have mentioned Java in my original post to the list. > > Java is relevant for a few reasons: > > 1. It has been around for a long time. > 2. It's quite popular. > 3. It's C-like, familiar, and attempts to implement some safety into the > language > 4. Its syntax is fairly simple (compared to C++). > > And most significantly of all: > > 5. It has gone through some significant syntactic changes, _years_ after > being well established and well known. > > For example, Java 1.5 added Generics to the language (a simplified version > of C++ templates). > > The recent Java has added anonymous functions (lambdas). > > Other well established languages have also made significant changes to their > syntax well after their first birthday. Objective-C, for example, added > properties and Automatic Reference Counting in with it turned 2.0. > > It also added syntax for various literals (arrays, maps, etc.): > http://clang.llvm.org/docs/ObjectiveCLiterals.html > > So, given the history of these well established languages, I think there's > still plenty of opportunity for change with Rust. More so, in fact, due to > its alpha status. It's easier to remove syntax while a language is young, > and Rust is still very young. > > With that said, though, Rust is a new and exciting language; if you can > think of improvements, try coding them up and see what you get! In my > experience, the Rust developers are always happy to hear from volunteers who > are excited about the language and have concrete pull requests. If you had > the energy to build an alternate front-end using a parenthesized syntax, I'm > sure there are others that would give it a try. Me, for instance! > > > I'd love to, but zero time at the moment. :-( > > Also, I'm not simply advocating a parenthesis-based syntax (though that > would be *awesome*!). I think the present syntax is malleable and can be > simplified and improved while retaining its C-ness for the sake of > developers who haven't quite yet expanded their minds... :-p > > Cheers, > Greg > > -- > Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing > with the NSA. > > On Nov 11, 2013, at 6:12 PM, John Clements <cleme...@brinckerhoff.org> > wrote: > > > On Nov 11, 2013, at 1:07 PM, Greg wrote: > > I don't think Rust can succeed as a language if it massively differs, > visually, from the language it intends to offset (C++). > > > Yes, I agree, and that's why I wrote: > > "By this point, I'm aware that this is unlikely to happen." > > > ... > > However, during those many years, did any of the brains that were involved > in designing the syntax seriously consider Clojure's syntax, or Typed > Clojure? > > I'm almost certain that the answer is "no" (partly because these > languages/dialects did not exist at the time). > > What about Lua, which is more C-like? > > Or CoffeeScript? > > > Greg, thanks for your comments! > > In fact, nearly all of the designers of Rust are deeply familiar with the > syntactic conventions of these and other languages. Speaking only for > myself, I come from Racket, and I'm a strong proponent of fully > parenthesized syntaxes. > > But! > > Rust is not that language. As you suggest (and others confirm), that train > left the station long, long ago. The choice of the Rust team to adopt a > C++-like syntax was very deliberate, and I'm confident that the members of > this team still believe that was the right choice. > > With that said, though, Rust is a new and exciting language; if you can > think of improvements, try coding them up and see what you get! In my > experience, the Rust developers are always happy to hear from volunteers who > are excited about the language and have concrete pull requests. If you had > the energy to build an alternate front-end using a parenthesized syntax, I'm > sure there are others that would give it a try. Me, for instance! > > All the best, > > John Clements > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rust-dev mailing list > Rust-dev@mozilla.org > https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev > -- Tim Chevalier * http://catamorphism.org/ * Often in error, never in doubt "If you are silent about your pain, they'll kill you and say you enjoyed it." -- Zora Neale Hurston _______________________________________________ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
