On 10/19/2011 07:14 PM, Phong Nguyen wrote:
On 19 Oct 2011, at 2019, Always Learning wrote:

On Wed, 2011-10-19 at 20:03 -0500, Phong Nguyen wrote:

On 19 Oct 2011, at 1951, Always Learning wrote:

Who will compel the Far East PCB manufacturers to introduce 'extras' NOT
required to run Windoze 8 ?

It isn't an "extra", any more than providing an option to change a boot disk 
is, or setting a BIOS password, or guarding the MBR. They license implementations from a 
handful of vendors who put that thing in, anyways!

You should realise M$'s intention is to damage, if not effectively
destroy or reduce, the competition which primarily comes from Linux.
Preventing or otherwise hindering dual-booting is one of many desires
from Seattle.

Microsoft is more interested in true competition these days, not the least to get the EU 
and US DOJ off their backs. Note that they have contributed quite a bit of code to the 
kernel to get Linux running smoothly on Hyper-V, for example. There is no need to cry 
"conspiracy" for UEFI Secure Boot - it solves a very real security problem for 
the vast majority of end-users. Technically minded users, again, can *shut it off*, or 
choose a vendor who will not play games with a user's machine.

"At the end of the day, the customer is in control of their PC. ....

That has NEVER been true since the introduction of Windoze 95 !

A M$ Windoze computer belongs to M$. That is why Linux, BSD, Solaris
etc. are so liberating.

I think you need to take another look at Microsoft.

I have been doing precisely that in the last few days. The revelations I
have seen in law enforcement documentation utterly reinforces my
long-held concern M$ Windoze was designed to permit clandestine
third-party access and to secretly record the user's activities on the
user's computer.

You would be able to provide primary source documentation to such intent? 
Further, what prevents law enforcement from doing the same to any other 
operating system? Once physical access is compromised (and clandestine software 
installation would almost certainly be through this route), all bet are off.

Perhaps you ought to be more inquisitive and re-examine your erroneously
held 'convictions' about sweet and gentle M$.

In no case have I said they are sweet and gentle. Microsoft is out to win, but 
there is no need to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt when the truth will 
suffice. Don't cry wolf, it means that people will take you less seriously.

You will be writing next that Google is not the world's biggest spying
operation and it was never encouraged and funded by Uncle Sam, or more
acurately by the USA tax payers.

Insinuation will get you nowhere.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but when opinions are
presented as misleading facts, I occasionally object. Hope you don't
mind :-)

With respect, you have been posting nothing but opinion, including the ridiculous use of 
"M$ Windoze", which has no place in mature and reasoned discourse.

Although this discussion is socio-political, and thus outside the nominal items on this list, the reality of Microsoft is that of an entrenched monopolist, of which charge Microsoft has been convicted in several governments. Microsoft exists for one purpose only: profiteering. The idea that the market controls both the offerings and quality of goods and services requires an open free market (as more or less explained in Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith), neither an unregulated monopoly nor oligopolies. There is no reason to assume that Microsoft will either "play fair" nor work in the public interest (see statements in the Association for Computing Machinery code of ethics).

The issue before this list is the ability for the systems administrator (administrator/end-user for one's own laptop) to select whatever operating environment legally can be used on the hardware. In particular, under the UEFI restrictions, given that a licensed-for-free system such as Linux (including SL and other EL clones) may not have a key recognized by the hardware if the only keys the hardware vendor provides are for Microsoft, under which scenario only Microsoft approved environments would be allowed to boot.

If law -- not just some nebulous "market force" to which an entrenched monopolist mostly is immune -- does not require machine manufacturers not install a Microsoft-only boot -- but rather allow the hardware owner to select the booted / installed system -- then UEFI might be a nuisance, but not an insurmountable barrier. As it stands, UEFI appears to be such an insurmountable barrier.

Yasha Karant

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