:)
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Martin Baxter" <truthseeker...@lycos.com>
> As always, Keith, well-spoken and thought-out. And I forgive you for your
> numerous references to the V-Word Series and Shark-of-Nine... ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------[ Received Mail Content ]----------
>
> Subject : Re: [RE][scifinoir2] Majel Roddenberry, wife of 'Trek' creator,
> dies
>
> Date : Sun, 04 Jan 2009 07:32:29 +0000
>
> From : keithbjohn...@comcast.net
>
> To : scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Good point on the women behind Trek. And there are the creative forces behind
> the scenes that shepherded the franchise, such as D.C. Fontana, Melinda
> Snodgrass (the story runner for a while on TNG), and of course, Majel
> Roddenberry herself. I only threw in Star Wars to be polite, because I know
> it
> does have a massive following. But personally I never put it in the same
> category of "serious" scif as Trek, B5, and Farscape. Some of the books and
> fan
> fiction deal with it in mature, intelligent ways, but the movies--with the
> exception of "The Empire Strikes Back"--are just too Saturday morning for me
> to
> discuss much in the same breath with Trek.
>
> As for Troi's character, Mirina Sirtis herself was constantly frustrated at
> Troi's rather vacuous portrayal, especially, the much joked about "Someone is
> planning something Captain, but I can't say who or what" usage of her
> empathic
> powers. Usually, Troi's empathy was no more helpful than the common sense and
> ability to read others we humans possess. It became a joke that even my
> casual
> fan wife was in on. As for that show where Troi was an undercover Romulan,
> Sirtis herself talked about that. Remember the later ep when the Enterprise
> and
> a Romulan ship were locked together in a temporal bubble? While exploring the
> cause of the problem, Troi's character tells Picard about how Romulan ships
> use
> a micro singularity as the power source for their engines. Sirtis was
> thrilled
> to get that line, because it showed she'd gained knowledge about Romulans
> from
> that undercover ep, and it finally allowed her character to show some
> intelligence and utility aside from distracting--er, helpi!
> ng--cr
> ew members as Ship's Counselor.
>
> Seven of Nine always bothered me. Jeri Ryan did okay, but she was no better
> an
> actor than other characters on the show that ultimately got short shrift,
> such
> as Garrett Wang (Kim), Tim Russ (Tuvok), and Robert Beltran (Chakotay). All
> suffered in the ridiculous focus on Seven. And while I'm a straight guy who
> doesn't mind seeing the female form, i hate being manipulated, and the Seven
> catsuits and high heels were just too ridiculous for me to feel anything but
> manipulated. The sexiest women in recent Trek all had on more clothing and
> got
> my attention way more: Dax, Kira, Cassidy Yates.
>
> Having watched Voyager reruns for a while now, I'm amazed at how overt this
> was.
> There are at least two shows I can think of, for example, where the crew had
> to
> fight to survive. I believe both dealt with that race of hunters, the Hirogin
> (sp?) In both cases, Tuvok--a century-old Vulcan who is supposed to be a
> superbly skilled martial artist--was injured, punked, and sat on the
> sidelines
> while Seven saved the day. She frankly got on my nerves, and the dynamic
> between
> her and Janeway became boring. One of the the most puzzling shows of Voyager
> is
> an ep where Janeway takes a personal interest in several crew members who
> simply
> aren't fitting in on the ship. They all just do what's needed to get by, but
> after six or seven years, they're just little known misfits. The show was
> shocking to me because after that long on a small ship with a crew of around
> 150, how the hell can the Captain not know everyone intimately? How the hell
> can
> all those missions and duties only go to that s!
> mall co
> re of people Janeway seems to have hung out with? I thought the writing and
> the
> premise was awful, and then seeing how much time was wasted on Janeway
> developing Seven, it made me even more irritated that she's somehow avoided
> her
> duty to take an interest in people who'd been on Voyager since day one.
>
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Meta"
> > --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, keithbjohn...@... wrote:
> > >
> > > That's an interesting point: just how big is the female following
> > among Trek? And how does its appeal among women compare with other
> > scifi giants like Babylon 5, Star Wars, Farscape?
> >
> > Trek has always had an extremely strong female following. Had it not
> > been for females the whole franchise might have never rearose.
> > Females started the very first drive to bring Trek back when it was in
> > danger of being canceled after season two of TOS as well as keeping
> > the drive going for making the move to film. We also had a strong hand
> > in starting the original fan cons.
> > >
> > > I agree that the women of Trek weren't very well utilized in the
> > main. I read character sketches on TNG, for example, revealing that
> > Deanna Troi was originally characterized as having a genius level IQ.
> > The only hint of that we saw was one ep where she beat Data playing 3D
> > chess, and even that might be more her ability to think outside his
> > logical box.
> >
> > I didn't start liking Deanna until she started dressing in uniform and
> > I really became a fan after she played the undercover Romulan.
> >
> >
> > Beverly Crusher was a fav of mine, but she was woefully underused.
> >
> > She was a fav of mine as well and they really had not a clue what to
> > do with her, besides kill patients.:)
> >
> > I guess you'd put Janeway in the "ultra butch" category, and Seven of
> > Nine and T'Pol in the "ultra fem" category?
> >
> > I liked Janeway at first, until they turned her into a bad rendition
> > of a female Capt. Ahab with earth as the whale. For some reason I
> > liked Seven, okay the costume was a bit much, but I actually thought
> > Jerry did an okay job. I never meshed with Enterprise so I can't
> > really say much about T'pol. I do plan to watch the show from
> > beginning to end one day. I have to, I'm a Trekkie.:)
> > >
> > > What about the women of Deep Space Nine? They seemed to be fairly
> > well-rounded to me. Dax was sexy and attractive, but also smart and
> > tough and serious when needed. She was never too far one way or the
> > other. Same for Kira, who was tough as nails, but allowed to be a
> > woman who could have tender feelings for a man.
> >
> > The DS9 ladies were as close to real women as Trek ever came, although
> > here and there they strayed a bit. My fav was Kassidy and they sort of
> > half-heartedly used her. Still DS9 is my favorite 'realistic' Trek.
> > TNG's my fav 'fantasy' Trek.
> >
> > As for the others, Star War only had Leia and in the first movie she
> > was just the 'bone' the heroes wanted. I do like her. One can't expect
> > much more from Lucas, after all.
> >
> > I never saw all of Babylon 5, but I liked what I did see a great deal.
> > As for Farscape, I'm still in shock that they took it off. I
> > absolutely loved this show from beginning to end. They got it right.
> > I'm still hoping for a movie or something.
> >
> > Meta
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQdwk8Yntds
--- Begin Message ---
As always, Keith, well-spoken and thought-out. And I forgive you for your numerous references to the V-Word Series and Shark-of-Nine... ;-)
---------[ Received Mail Content ]----------
Subject : Re: [RE][scifinoir2] Majel Roddenberry, wife of 'Trek' creator, dies
Date : Sun, 04 Jan 2009 07:32:29 +0000
From : KeithBJohnson@comcast.net
To : scifino...@yahoogroups.com
Good point on the women behind Trek. And there are the creative forces behind the scenes that shepherded the franchise, such as D.C. Fontana, Melinda Snodgrass (the story runner for a while on TNG), and of course, Majel Roddenberry herself. I only threw in Star Wars to be polite, because I know it does have a massive following. But personally I never put it in the same category of "serious" scif as Trek, B5, and Farscape. Some of the books and fan fiction deal with it in mature, intelligent ways, but the movies--with the exception of "The Empire Strikes Back"--are just too Saturday morning for me to discuss much in the same breath with Trek.
As for Troi's character, Mirina Sirtis herself was constantly frustrated at Troi's rather vacuous portrayal, especially, the much joked about "Someone is planning something Captain, but I can't say who or what" usage of her empathic powers. Usually, Troi's empathy was no more helpful than the common sense and ability to read others we humans possess. It became a joke that even my casual fan wife was in on. As for that show where Troi was an undercover Romulan, Sirtis herself talked about that. Remember the later ep when the Enterprise and a Romulan ship were locked together in a temporal bubble? While exploring the cause of the problem, Troi's character tells Picard about how Romulan ships use a micro singularity as the power source for their engines. Sirtis was thrilled to get that line, because it showed she'd gained knowledge about Romulans from that undercover ep, and it finally allowed her character to show some intelligence and utility aside from distracting--er, !
helping--cr
ew members as Ship's Counselor.
Seven of Nine always bothered me. Jeri Ryan did okay, but she was no better an actor than other characters on the show that ultimately got short shrift, such as Garrett Wang (Kim), Tim Russ (Tuvok), and Robert Beltran (Chakotay). All suffered in the ridiculous focus on Seven. And while I'm a straight guy who doesn't mind seeing the female form, i hate being manipulated, and the Seven catsuits and high heels were just too ridiculous for me to feel anything but manipulated. The sexiest women in recent Trek all had on more clothing and got my attention way more: Dax, Kira, Cassidy Yates.
Having watched Voyager reruns for a while now, I'm amazed at how overt this was. There are at least two shows I can think of, for example, where the crew had to fight to survive. I believe both dealt with that race of hunters, the Hirogin (sp?) In both cases, Tuvok--a century-old Vulcan who is supposed to be a superbly skilled martial artist--was injured, punked, and sat on the sidelines while Seven saved the day. She frankly got on my nerves, and the dynamic between her and Janeway became boring. One of the the most puzzling shows of Voyager is an ep where Janeway takes a personal interest in several crew members who simply aren't fitting in on the ship. They all just do what's needed to get by, but after six or seven years, they're just little known misfits. The show was shocking to me because after that long on a small ship with a crew of around 150, how the hell can the Captain not know everyone intimately? How the hell can all those missions and duties only go to th!
at small co
re of people Janeway seems to have hung out with? I thought the writing and the premise was awful, and then seeing how much time was wasted on Janeway developing Seven, it made me even more irritated that she's somehow avoided her duty to take an interest in people who'd been on Voyager since day one.
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Meta"
> --- In scifino...@yahoogroups.com, KeithBJohnson@... wrote:
> >
> > That's an interesting point: just how big is the female following
> among Trek? And how does its appeal among women compare with other
> scifi giants like Babylon 5, Star Wars, Farscape?
>
> Trek has always had an extremely strong female following. Had it not
> been for females the whole franchise might have never rearose.
> Females started the very first drive to bring Trek back when it was in
> danger of being canceled after season two of TOS as well as keeping
> the drive going for making the move to film. We also had a strong hand
> in starting the original fan cons.
> >
> > I agree that the women of Trek weren't very well utilized in the
> main. I read character sketches on TNG, for example, revealing that
> Deanna Troi was originally characterized as having a genius level IQ.
> The only hint of that we saw was one ep where she beat Data playing 3D
> chess, and even that might be more her ability to think outside his
> logical box.
>
> I didn't start liking Deanna until she started dressing in uniform and
> I really became a fan after she played the undercover Romulan.
>
>
> Beverly Crusher was a fav of mine, but she was woefully underused.
>
> She was a fav of mine as well and they really had not a clue what to
> do with her, besides kill patients.:)
>
> I guess you'd put Janeway in the "ultra butch" category, and Seven of
> Nine and T'Pol in the "ultra fem" category?
>
> I liked Janeway at first, until they turned her into a bad rendition
> of a female Capt. Ahab with earth as the whale. For some reason I
> liked Seven, okay the costume was a bit much, but I actually thought
> Jerry did an okay job. I never meshed with Enterprise so I can't
> really say much about T'pol. I do plan to watch the show from
> beginning to end one day. I have to, I'm a Trekkie.:)
> >
> > What about the women of Deep Space Nine? They seemed to be fairly
> well-rounded to me. Dax was sexy and attractive, but also smart and
> tough and serious when needed. She was never too far one way or the
> other. Same for Kira, who was tough as nails, but allowed to be a
> woman who could have tender feelings for a man.
>
> The DS9 ladies were as close to real women as Trek ever came, although
> here and there they strayed a bit. My fav was Kassidy and they sort of
> half-heartedly used her. Still DS9 is my favorite 'realistic' Trek.
> TNG's my fav 'fantasy' Trek.
>
> As for the others, Star War only had Leia and in the first movie she
> was just the 'bone' the heroes wanted. I do like her. One can't expect
> much more from Lucas, after all.
>
> I never saw all of Babylon 5, but I liked what I did see a great deal.
> As for Farscape, I'm still in shock that they took it off. I
> absolutely loved this show from beginning to end. They got it right.
> I'm still hoping for a movie or something.
>
> Meta
>
>
>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQdwk8Yntds
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--- End Message ---
