Looks like I picked a good day to come back to the fold. LKS, I read a lot of alternate history and I am well versed on Turtledove's work. Some of your complaints against Barnes are leveled at all writers in the genre including Turtledove. I've seen some pretty brutal discussions where Turtledove gets hammered for getting the history not quite right or bending the facts to suit his assumptions. The getting the history right and creating a believeable point of departure are very important to genre but the stories are more the bigger draw for me.
I don't find the same problems with Barnes series that you do. I don't think he's working in quite the same vein as Turtledove. I think a closer comparison would be to the work of S.M. Stirling. His Draka and New British Empire novels get flak for some of the same reasons you have problems with Barnes but it doesn't hurt the novels or the storytelling. Barnes, Stirling and others get a little creative within the genre and in some ways stack the probability deck to get the playing field they want to write stories about. The Lion's Blood and Draka timelines fall apart under scrutiny(to many of the lucky dice rolls form the timelines) but I don't think it's their goal to create a perfect p.o.d. BTW what do you think of Turtledove's stuff where he loosens the formula and writes some alternate history that really plays with the conventions? Guns Of The South has huge, improbable deus ex machina as the foundation of the story and A Different Flesh makes a lot of what if assumptions to give him a neolithic North and South America. Flaws aside these are some of his more popular works. You could add his World War series in there as well. --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Ok. I've got a bit of time. > > The reason I reiterate exactly how this thread started--as a critique > of what Barnes has to do to get to the next level--is because without > that part we veer off into weird directions. Directions that may be > "lively" but may end up shedding more heat than light. > > This is why the comparison with Turtledove, something Chris neglected, > becomes important. Turtledove's writing is a definite problem as it > relates to black people. The depiction of Africans in his fantasy riff > of World War II was deeply problematic. > > But he's the best in the business...in alternative history. If we're > to refer to Barnes as one of the best in alternative history, then to > ME what we're saying is that he's as good as, if not better than, the > best in his field. > > What makes an alternative history good? > > Some of the same things that makes a STORY good. Because in science > fiction, one of the most important things is creating a believable > world--the world in science fiction and fantasy is as much a character > as the "real" characters--getting the reader to suspend her disbelief > is crucial. You don't suspend her disbelief, and it doesn't really > matter how good or interesting your characters are. > > In alternative history for ME, an important part of suspending > disbelief is creating a plausible jumping off point for the alternative > universe. > ........ > In Philip Roth's recent novel THE PLOT AGAINST AMERICA his jumping off > point is....a 1940 presidential election in which truman loses to > Charles Lindbergh. Once Lindbergh wins he quickly establishes America > as an anti-Semitic nation that uses all types of terroristic > legislation and behavior to subjugate American jews. For a number of > readers, this account was riveting. > > There's one problem though. There was ALREADY an example in the > forties of a group of people who were subjugated by terroristic policy > and law. > > US. > > I don't know how Roth could've ignored this simple fact--lynching had > died down a bit but people were still being dragged out of their homes > in the middle of the night, they were victimized and brutalized by > night riders, their land stolen, their bodies broken by slave labor. > But Roth did. > > No way in hell does that alternative history ring true for me. I > cannot suspend my disbelief. > ....... > > Reading Lion's Blood, what jumped out to me was that I found myself > asking over and over again--why does slavery still occur if the > Europeans don't do it? > > The enslavement was a product of material expansion--Slaves WORKED THE > LAND TO PROVIDE PRODUCT. In South America and in the Caribbean they > worked sugar cane. In the Deep South they worked cotton. These goods > were then used to create finished product that was sold on an > international market. The countries of Europe were so desirous of > slave labor as a way to grow their own economies that the Pope had to > step in and basically create a legal process that would determine WHO > had the rights to go WHERE. And of course on top of this was an > ideological machine that used religion, science, and manifest destiny, > to say that it was basically ok to create chattle slavery. The > competition between these various nations was fierce for a number of > reasons, and it helped to develop a culture that was both sophisticated > technically and barbarous as far as its relationships with other > non-european peoples. > > In short, I believe in a macro level form of "environmental > determinism." That is, the material, and cultural environment of a > given place exert an effect on the customs, the religious and political > systems, and the martial tendencies of people. Jared Diamond makes > this argument in GUNS, GERMS, AND STEEL....but I don't think he takes > it to its natural conclusion. > > Reading Lion's Blood, I never got the sense that Barnes thought all of > this through. It's as if his central argument was "well, if Africans > had the opportunity, they would have done it too." That position is > inane to me. Now it IS possible to make that argument and create a > world in which that position makes sense--but for me that world would > have to literally have a different climate. Give Africa REAL winters, > and take away its ability to basically grow food and material in > abundance...and I can buy it. Otherwise? Nope. > > ......... > Now on the real. > > I can easily see someone tripping on me asking someone to actually READ > the book we're talking about. But come on! Getting into a larger > argument about what an alternative history is supposed to look like > don't mean a damn thing without some actual TEXT in front of you. All > it leads is to sniping from the side, and folks pulling out all types > of stuff from the wood work. > > "What about Black Empire? Was THAT good?" > > "What about Song of Solomon? Was THAT good?" > > Hell...in a neat Afrocentric twist, Chris even pulled out GONE WITH THE > WIND! Going Scarlett O' Hara on my ass. > > At some level in order to create and figure out standards of writing, > we've got to COME WITH SOMETHING. > > Especially when we're talking about black writers writing about black > subjects. > > You want arrogant? If it means saying that to be a good writer of > BLACK speculative fiction, you've got to write something that rings > true to black life and world history....then yeah. I'll BE that. I'll > be the one telling you to read rather than just talking about something > out of the side of your neck (Chris you know I love you like a play > cousin!). I'll be the one saying that we can't just say "well, > everyone should be able to write in their own special way." > > Hell no. Unless you're telling me that it's ok for a movie like > Mississippi Burning to not only exist but get awards. > > I LIKE Steven Barnes work. I think BLOOD BROTHERS was good...and he > writes martial arts combat better than anyone I've read. But just like > most real scientists toss Star Wars over the side because the Tie > Fighters actually make SOUNDS when they fly through SPACE...I'm a real > black social scientist (in any way you want to carve it). And I'm > quick to toss nonfiction and fiction over the side if it doesn't adhere > to the standards i fight for on the regular when it comes to black > people. > > peace > lks > > > p.s. Wild Cards was dope. Sue me. > > > > > > On Jun 13, 2005, at 5:41 PM, belsidus2000 wrote: > > > <<He means well-- > > I think (though he was wrong) he brought on a lively discussion. > > > > Chris > > > > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, Addams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > The need to say that there's only one way to write > > > speculative fiction, especially "alternative" history, > > > is a bit ludicrous and the tone became a bit arrogant > > > on the part of our dear professor friend. I thought > > > this would be a more welcoming environment than that. > > > > > > David Addams > > > > > > --- belsidus2000 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > <<What are you talking about??>> > > > > > > > > Chris H. > > > > > > > > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, Addams > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > The critiques are totally valid. The need to have > > > > a > > > > > corner on the truth about fiction is laughable and > > > > the > > > > > tone is totally unnecessary. Lighten up people. > > > > > > > > > > --- cecilwashington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > As much as I love the "Lion's Blood" books, > > > > these > > > > > > critiques of it that > > > > > > have been posted are valid. And eye-opening. I > > > > > > never thought of it > > > > > > that way: why would Africa come all the way > > > > over > > > > > > here when they > > > > > > already have all the need materially? > > > > > > > > > > > > There's also a book out there (whose title > > > > escapes > > > > > > me but I think it is > > > > > > called "The Decline of Black Civilization") that > > > > > > talks about the > > > > > > significant effects of climate on African > > > > history. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe if the SOLE purpose for African expansion > > > > in > > > > > > the Alternative > > > > > > History was religious we could see why Africa > > > > would > > > > > > colonize America. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Community email addresses: > > Post message: SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com > > Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subscribe Digest Mode: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SciFiNoir_Lit/ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > • To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SciFiNoir_Lit/ > > > > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > Dr. Lester K. Spence > Assistant Professor, Political Science and African Afro-American Studies > Washington University > Kellogg Scholar in Health Disparities 2004-2006 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? 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