Re: [9fans] GNU binutils: you can't make this shit up

[Eirik Johnson]

It does seem odd to use the GNU extensions there,
especially as L4Ka people can't be too cozy with FSF
people, the whole L4Ka::Pistachio is released under
the BSD license.

Quinn

--- David Leimbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 1/15/06, erik quanstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > l4 depends on all that gnu stuff?
> >
> > it's hard to imagine something that bills itself
> as the ultimate
> > microkernel depending on the ultimate macro
> environment.
> >
> > - erik
> >
> 
> Depends on the implementation... L4 Pistachio
> requires C++ and a
> particular version of gcc.  I've built it on my Mac
> OS X environment
> successfully and run piggybacked images since we had
> no multi-boot
> capable loaders for OpenFirmware at the time.
> 
> dave
> 
> > Ronald G Minnich  writes
> >
> > |
> > | Andy Newman wrote:
> > | >  But luckily there's only one array parameter
> > | > so the error is not that much of a challenge.
> > |
> > |
> > | um. you have not waded through the GNU ifdef
> hell, I'm guessing.
> > |
> > | I have an even better one, in which a struct is
> forward declared, and
> > | included, and so on  and it's still not
> found as a defined struct.
> > |
> > | And, of course, you can't just cd into a
> binutils directory and try to
> > | make something; no sir, because about 30
> environment variables are
> > | missing at that point.
> > |
> > | whew. Sorry, this is trying to see if the L4
> microkernel can run a Plan
> > | 9 guest.
> > |
> > | ron
> >
> 


__
Do You Yahoo!?
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Re: [9fans] GNU binutils: you can't make this shit up

[Bruce Ellis]

anyone who is serious trying anything starting with "g" with
kenc (apart from "grep") is barking up the wrong
mountain ave.

brucee

On 1/18/06, Eirik Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It does seem odd to use the GNU extensions there,
> especially as L4Ka people can't be too cozy with FSF
> people, the whole L4Ka::Pistachio is released under
> the BSD license.
>
> Quinn
>
> --- David Leimbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On 1/15/06, erik quanstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > l4 depends on all that gnu stuff?
> > >
> > > it's hard to imagine something that bills itself
> > as the ultimate
> > > microkernel depending on the ultimate macro
> > environment.
> > >
> > > - erik
> > >
> >
> > Depends on the implementation... L4 Pistachio
> > requires C++ and a
> > particular version of gcc.  I've built it on my Mac
> > OS X environment
> > successfully and run piggybacked images since we had
> > no multi-boot
> > capable loaders for OpenFirmware at the time.
> >
> > dave
> >
> > > Ronald G Minnich  writes
> > >
> > > |
> > > | Andy Newman wrote:
> > > | >  But luckily there's only one array parameter
> > > | > so the error is not that much of a challenge.
> > > |
> > > |
> > > | um. you have not waded through the GNU ifdef
> > hell, I'm guessing.
> > > |
> > > | I have an even better one, in which a struct is
> > forward declared, and
> > > | included, and so on  and it's still not
> > found as a defined struct.
> > > |
> > > | And, of course, you can't just cd into a
> > binutils directory and try to
> > > | make something; no sir, because about 30
> > environment variables are
> > > | missing at that point.
> > > |
> > > | whew. Sorry, this is trying to see if the L4
> > microkernel can run a Plan
> > > | 9 guest.
> > > |
> > > | ron
> > >
> >
>
>
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Re: [9fans] GNU binutils: you can't make this shit up

[alexandr babic]

i think 9fans should write plan9 native programs not trying other waste
to import.

alexandr.


Bruce Ellis píše v Čt 19. 01. 2006 v 00:45 +1100:
> anyone who is serious trying anything starting with "g" with
> kenc (apart from "grep") is barking up the wrong
> mountain ave.
> 
> brucee
> 

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Bruce Ellis]

ahhh - just woken so here is a mildly related rant while the
coffee revs up.

standards?  when i was staying with skip at Club Vashon
we had a power outage (some bloody tree falling) and when
the candles and flashlights started to fail i trundled upstairs
and grabbed by video camera which has night vision, spotlight
and a 5 hour battery (footage of target - the wonder dog - catching
frisbees in the dark will appear).

so the next day i go to costco with pat ('cause my luggage was
lost and then busted) and the first thing in the door was a huge
flashlight.  brucee thinks 10 million candle-power.  10 million of
anything must be good and indeed it has been used more than
recreationally, to help stranded souls on the sound.  so i grabbed
it as a present (of course she had cooked me a good breakfast).

but back to the point.  i was at "bunnings" the other day (well
actually most days because i'm in renovation hell) and the same
flashlight was there - but repackaged (because candlepower is
not SI and not legal in australia) - bloody lumens.

then i bought a water blaster (good toy) and it's clearly marked
in PSI (pounds per square inch) - not very SI.

so there are rules and standards but they just get broken.

stay safe, throw the frisbee.

brucee

On 1/18/06, Bruce Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> standards are weird.  i wish someone would standardize standards.
> oh no that would involve a committee of uninformed experts.
>
> i have never had a problem with kenc, both for user and kernel stuff.
> but i don't use putchar() or some other recalcitrant macro.
>
> the proof is in the pudding.
>
> brucee
>
> On 1/18/06, Paul Lalonde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On 17-Jan-06, at 9:38 PM, Simon Williams wrote:
> >
> > > The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose
> > > from
> > > Cheers
> > >Simon ( who cant remember who said this first )
> >
> > Andy Tannenbaum, wasn't it?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
>

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Ronald G Minnich]

read "the art of networking style" for a great rant on standards.

Note that film standards are ISO/DIN numbers -- not one number, two. 
That's how they resolved how to pick the #.


48 byte cells came from standards.

ron

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Brantley Coile]

> Andy Tannenbaum, wasn't it?

No.  It was Andy Tanenbaum.  Not Andy Tannenbaum.  That's a different fellow.
>From his book, Computer Networks.

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Paul Lalonde]

Standards are for when there are too many cooks in the kitchen.  By  
their very nature they have to compromise.
Give me the work of a standards committee before the the work of a  
single idiot; but most of all give me the work of a brilliant expert  
before that of the committee.  And for God's sake, please don't turn  
my expert into an idiot by throwing him onto a committee!


Paul

On 17-Jan-06, at 10:11 PM, Bruce Ellis wrote:


standards are weird.  i wish someone would standardize standards.
oh no that would involve a committee of uninformed experts.

i have never had a problem with kenc, both for user and kernel stuff.
but i don't use putchar() or some other recalcitrant macro.

the proof is in the pudding.

brucee

On 1/18/06, Paul Lalonde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 17-Jan-06, at 9:38 PM, Simon Williams wrote:


The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose
from
Cheers
   Simon ( who cant remember who said this first )


Andy Tannenbaum, wasn't it?

Paul

Re: [9fans] GNU binutils: you can't make this shit up

[Ronald G Minnich]

alexandr babic wrote:

i think 9fans should write plan9 native programs not trying other waste
to import.


right, but I was not trying to do that.

I'm trying to see
- if I can get L4KA to build (fails)
- get L4KA to boot linux (predicated on previous step)
- run Plan 9 as an L4KA guest (predicated on previous step)

 so far, failure all around.

"he who lives by the gcc hack, dies by the gcc hack" (even on linux)

ron

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Paul Lalonde]

:-)  Must learn to proof my spelling of names in languages I don't  
speak :-)


On 18-Jan-06, at 7:25 AM, Brantley Coile wrote:


Andy Tannenbaum, wasn't it?


No.  It was Andy Tanenbaum.  Not Andy Tannenbaum.  That's a  
different fellow.

From his book, Computer Networks.

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Bruce Ellis]

well put sir, and i have a small kitchen.

brucee

On 1/19/06, Paul Lalonde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Standards are for when there are too many cooks in the kitchen.  By
> their very nature they have to compromise.
> Give me the work of a standards committee before the the work of a
> single idiot; but most of all give me the work of a brilliant expert
> before that of the committee.  And for God's sake, please don't turn
> my expert into an idiot by throwing him onto a committee!
>
> Paul
>
> On 17-Jan-06, at 10:11 PM, Bruce Ellis wrote:
>
> > standards are weird.  i wish someone would standardize standards.
> > oh no that would involve a committee of uninformed experts.
> >
> > i have never had a problem with kenc, both for user and kernel stuff.
> > but i don't use putchar() or some other recalcitrant macro.
> >
> > the proof is in the pudding.
> >
> > brucee
> >
> > On 1/18/06, Paul Lalonde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 17-Jan-06, at 9:38 PM, Simon Williams wrote:
> >>
> >>> The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose
> >>> from
> >>> Cheers
> >>>Simon ( who cant remember who said this first )
> >>
> >> Andy Tannenbaum, wasn't it?
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >>
>
>

Re: [9fans] GNU binutils: you can't make this shit up

[Bruce Ellis]

beck wrote a song "gcc makes me wanta do crack" - well
at least that what it is after i edited it.

brucee

On 1/19/06, Ronald G Minnich  wrote:
> alexandr babic wrote:
> > i think 9fans should write plan9 native programs not trying other waste
> > to import.
>
> right, but I was not trying to do that.
>
> I'm trying to see
> - if I can get L4KA to build (fails)
> - get L4KA to boot linux (predicated on previous step)
> - run Plan 9 as an L4KA guest (predicated on previous step)
>
>  so far, failure all around.
>
> "he who lives by the gcc hack, dies by the gcc hack" (even on linux)
>
> ron
>

[9fans] acme mail on unix

[Russ Cox]

I am sending this from inside acme Mail on Linux.
Or at least the program is called Mail.
It's not actually the Mail from Plan 9.

I am running mh and have 'customized' it to print
something close to sensible output.  Mail itself
is a shell script.  The interactive delay is a little
annoying sometimes, you have to run inc and Get
to check for new mail, and the script itself needs
to be cleaned up, but it's still entirely usable.

I have attached my .mh_profile, Mail/mhl.format,
Mail/mhl.headers, and the Mail script itself.

Russ

Path: Mail
Draft-Folder: draft
Aliasfile: aliases
mhshow-charset-iso-8859-1: %s | tcs -f 8859-1

; mhl.format
;
; default message filter for `show'
;
overflowoffset=4
leftadjust,compwidth=9
Date:formatfield="%<(nodate{text})%{text}%|%(pretty{text})%>"
To:
cc:
From:decode
Subject:decode
:
body:nocomponent,overflowtext=,overflowoffset=0,noleftadjust
; mhl.format
;
; default message filter for `show'
;
overflowtext="***",overflowoffset=5
leftadjust,compwidth=9
Date:formatfield="%<(nodate{text})%{text}%|%(pretty{text})%>"
To:
cc:
From:decode
Subject:decode
:

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Wes Kussmaul]

Paul Lalonde wrote:

Standards are for when there are too many cooks in the kitchen. By 
their very nature they have to compromise.
Give me the work of a standards committee before the the work of a 
single idiot; but most of all give me the work of a brilliant expert 
before that of the committee. And for God's sake, please don't turn my 
expert into an idiot by throwing him onto a committee!


How about all standards committees advising one individual, the 
standards czar, your brilliant expert, with a background in law and 
social science as well as technology, who is able to apply duly 
constituted public authority to a standard. He/she cannot have any 
alliances with anyone but the ITU.


--
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a bit obscure. 


P.K. Iggy
_How I Like Fixed The Internet_
  (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
  and the prosperity that followed)

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Bruce Ellis]

how about someone (or two) experts write the standard?
worked for K&R.

brucee

On 1/19/06, Wes Kussmaul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Paul Lalonde wrote:
>
> > Standards are for when there are too many cooks in the kitchen. By
> > their very nature they have to compromise.
> > Give me the work of a standards committee before the the work of a
> > single idiot; but most of all give me the work of a brilliant expert
> > before that of the committee. And for God's sake, please don't turn my
> > expert into an idiot by throwing him onto a committee!
>
> How about all standards committees advising one individual, the
> standards czar, your brilliant expert, with a background in law and
> social science as well as technology, who is able to apply duly
> constituted public authority to a standard. He/she cannot have any
> alliances with anyone but the ITU.
>
> --
> Wes Kussmaul
> CIO
> The Village Group
> 738 Main Street
> Waltham, MA 02451
>
> 781-647-7178
>
>
> My uncle likes to say that the world's biggest troubles started when the 
> serpent said, "Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people 
> collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it's the same 
> as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it." I don't get the serpent and 
> fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a bit obscure.
>
> P.K. Iggy
> _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
>   (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
>   and the prosperity that followed)
>
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] GNU binutils: you can't make this shit up

[alexandr babic]

programer's life could be easier and happier if he stays within plan9.
i think that i became reducionist thanx to plan9 :-)

* no horrible graphic desktops (kde, gnome, windows) only pure and nice
rio.

* no giant graphic libraries (gtk, qt, motif) only libdraw

AND LIFE IS SO EASY :-)

alexandr

Bruce Ellis píše v Čt 19. 01. 2006 v 03:45 +1100:
> beck wrote a song "gcc makes me wanta do crack" - well
> at least that what it is after i edited it.
> 
> brucee
> 
> On 1/19/06, Ronald G Minnich  wrote:
> > alexandr babic wrote:
> > > i think 9fans should write plan9 native programs not trying other waste
> > > to import.
> >
> > right, but I was not trying to do that.
> >
> > I'm trying to see
> > - if I can get L4KA to build (fails)
> > - get L4KA to boot linux (predicated on previous step)
> > - run Plan 9 as an L4KA guest (predicated on previous step)
> >
> >  so far, failure all around.
> >
> > "he who lives by the gcc hack, dies by the gcc hack" (even on linux)
> >
> > ron
> >

Re: [9fans] GNU binutils: you can't make this shit up

[David Leimbach]

On 1/18/06, Ronald G Minnich  wrote:
alexandr babic wrote:> i think 9fans should write plan9 native programs not trying other waste> to import.right, but I was not trying to do that.I'm trying to see- if I can get L4KA to build (fails)
Never had a problem here... I even cross compile from Mac OS X.  Just gotta use the right version of the compiler.  [Stupid, I agree, and circle gets the square]See this for some potential hints... Of course it's PPC specific but it may help you figure out why stuff won't build in general.
http://l4ka.org/projects/pistachio/powerpc/ppc-build.txt Been a while since I've tried this myself but I was very successful back then [
1.5 years ago?]- get L4KA to boot linux (predicated on previous step)
I think I only ever ran a Live CD of this... but it worked great with the Dresden Realtime OPerating Systems demo floppy or CD or whatever it was...  They have a really weird windowing system for launching Debian on L4 instances this was quite a bit before Xen mind you and they were doing the same things but on a microkernel that had less suck than mach.
- run Plan 9 as an L4KA guest (predicated on previous step)
I'd try that :)  The weird thing is you can load l4-linux and then write an OS personality in another address space and use the L4 messaging to use linux as something of a driver repository.  There are even some performance measurments of the impact of this, which is a ton better than trying to write drivers in userspace with mach.  I wouldn't try 10Gbit ethernet that way but for disks and some other devices this seems to work kind of well.
Abstract here:http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/EZAG/old/ws2004/abstracts/abstract_20041012.xmlSometimes I wish I could just get paid to play with esoteric weird OS junk all day. 
  so far, failure all around."he who lives by the gcc hack, dies by the gcc hack" (even on linux)
yep, I'm at least glad that I see more and more -std=c99 in the FreeBSD build system.  Less and less gcc-isms is a big plus, even if I don't care for C99 so much [which could be worse]. 
ron

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Paul Lalonde]

How about all standards committees advising one individual, the  
standards czar, your brilliant expert, with a background in law and  
social science as well as technology, who is able to apply duly  
constituted public authority to a standard. He/she cannot have any  
alliances with anyone but the ITU.


And where will you find any brilliant expert willing to do that job?   
It's guaranteed thankless and without innovation.
You need a brilliant domain expert, and most of those are very much  
interested in their work, not in farting around being advised by  
committees.
My last employer killed my sense of worth by pilling me on standards  
committees, evaluation committees, coffee-cup-washing committees ad  
infinitum.  I may not be a brilliant expert, but they put me there as  
an expert, and killed the expertise simultaneously.  Nothing is as  
soul-draining as standards arguments.


Paul

Re: [9fans] GNU binutils: you can't make this shit up

[Bruce Ellis]

well said.  is this better than a town hall meeting?

yes.

rev brucee

On 1/19/06, alexandr babic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> programer's life could be easier and happier if he stays within plan9.
> i think that i became reducionist thanx to plan9 :-)
>
> * no horrible graphic desktops (kde, gnome, windows) only pure and nice
> rio.
>
> * no giant graphic libraries (gtk, qt, motif) only libdraw
>
> AND LIFE IS SO EASY :-)
>
> alexandr
>
> Bruce Ellis píše v Čt 19. 01. 2006 v 03:45 +1100:
> > beck wrote a song "gcc makes me wanta do crack" - well
> > at least that what it is after i edited it.
> >
> > brucee
> >
> > On 1/19/06, Ronald G Minnich  wrote:
> > > alexandr babic wrote:
> > > > i think 9fans should write plan9 native programs not trying other waste
> > > > to import.
> > >
> > > right, but I was not trying to do that.
> > >
> > > I'm trying to see
> > > - if I can get L4KA to build (fails)
> > > - get L4KA to boot linux (predicated on previous step)
> > > - run Plan 9 as an L4KA guest (predicated on previous step)
> > >
> > >  so far, failure all around.
> > >
> > > "he who lives by the gcc hack, dies by the gcc hack" (even on linux)
> > >
> > > ron
> > >
>
>

Re: [9fans] GNU binutils: you can't make this shit up

[Ronald G Minnich]

david, that's a useful web page but the issues come in with afterburner, 
but I'll keep trying.


in spare time.

ron

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[David Leimbach]

On 1/18/06, Bruce Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
how about someone (or two) experts write the standard?worked for K&R.What's worse is standards with no reference implementation. Both C an C99 seem to have suffered from this disease.
C++ hasn't been implemented as 1998's spec has erm... specified to my knowledge without any bugs.  [EDG comes closest and Intel and other compiler vendors are just using their front end, and paying for it as a result].
C99 has implementation issues like tgmath.h that are actually impossible to implement in just C99.  You absolutely will need compiler extensions to implement that header properly.Perhaps the best way to specify a standard is to define it in a reference implementation then talk about it.  Not specify on paper and dream about how it should work then find out how far off you were when you start trying to prototype it.
DavebruceeOn 1/19/06, Wes Kussmaul <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> Paul Lalonde wrote:>> > Standards are for when there are too many cooks in the kitchen. By> > their very nature they have to compromise.> > Give me the work of a standards committee before the the work of a
> > single idiot; but most of all give me the work of a brilliant expert> > before that of the committee. And for God's sake, please don't turn my> > expert into an idiot by throwing him onto a committee!
>> How about all standards committees advising one individual, the> standards czar, your brilliant expert, with a background in law and> social science as well as technology, who is able to apply duly
> constituted public authority to a standard. He/she cannot have any> alliances with anyone but the ITU.>> --> Wes Kussmaul> CIO> The Village Group> 738 Main Street
> Waltham, MA 02451>> 781-647-7178>>> My uncle likes to say that the world's biggest troubles started when the serpent said, "Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it's the same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it." I don't get the serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a bit obscure.
>> P.K. Iggy> _How I Like Fixed The Internet_>   (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009>   and the prosperity that followed)

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Bruce Ellis]

I think - just do it.  The ozinferno "standard" is defined by the
implementation - plus whatever documentation that i get time
to write.  This does not solve larger issues (like standards
for cell phones) but it works for me.  I didn't go to a meeting
to add function pointers, i just did it.

brucee

On 1/19/06, David Leimbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On 1/18/06, Bruce Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > how about someone (or two) experts write the standard?
> > worked for K&R.
>
>
> What's worse is standards with no reference implementation. Both C an C99
> seem to have suffered from this disease.
>
> C++ hasn't been implemented as 1998's spec has erm... specified to my
> knowledge without any bugs.  [EDG comes closest and Intel and other compiler
> vendors are just using their front end, and paying for it as a result].
>
> C99 has implementation issues like tgmath.h that are actually impossible to
> implement in just C99.  You absolutely will need compiler extensions to
> implement that header properly.
>
> Perhaps the best way to specify a standard is to define it in a reference
> implementation then talk about it.  Not specify on paper and dream about how
> it should work then find out how far off you were when you start trying to
> prototype it.
>
> Dave
>
> > brucee
> >
> > On 1/19/06, Wes Kussmaul < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Paul Lalonde wrote:
> > >
> > > > Standards are for when there are too many cooks in the kitchen. By
> > > > their very nature they have to compromise.
> > > > Give me the work of a standards committee before the the work of a
> > > > single idiot; but most of all give me the work of a brilliant expert
> > > > before that of the committee. And for God's sake, please don't turn my
> > > > expert into an idiot by throwing him onto a committee!
> > >
> > > How about all standards committees advising one individual, the
> > > standards czar, your brilliant expert, with a background in law and
> > > social science as well as technology, who is able to apply duly
> > > constituted public authority to a standard. He/she cannot have any
> > > alliances with anyone but the ITU.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Wes Kussmaul
> > > CIO
> > > The Village Group
> > > 738 Main Street
> > > Waltham, MA 02451
> > >
> > > 781-647-7178
> > >
> > >
> > > My uncle likes to say that the world's biggest troubles started when the
> serpent said, "Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people
> collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it's the
> same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it." I don't get the
> serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a bit
> obscure.
> > >
> > > P.K. Iggy
> > > _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
> > >   (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
> > >   and the prosperity that followed)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Charles Forsyth]

> Nothing is as  soul-draining as standards arguments.

in the mid 80s i was on just one committee for a short time and when i left
my dept i put the resulting many big boxes of papers in the dept library
as a Warning to later generations.  it was originally only intended to
add four or five simple things (one type and a few functions) to an
existing language (perhaps an afternoon to implement).
it didn't end up that way.

Re: [9fans] acme mail on unix

[Tim Wiess]

Russ,
This is great! I am very eager to try this out.
However I didn't get the Mail script you attached. It just
came through as an empty file. Would you mind sending that
again?

tim


> I am sending this from inside acme Mail on Linux.
> Or at least the program is called Mail.
> It's not actually the Mail from Plan 9.
> 
> I am running mh and have 'customized' it to print
> something close to sensible output.  Mail itself
> is a shell script.  The interactive delay is a little
> annoying sometimes, you have to run inc and Get
> to check for new mail, and the script itself needs
> to be cleaned up, but it's still entirely usable.
> 
> I have attached my .mh_profile, Mail/mhl.format,
> Mail/mhl.headers, and the Mail script itself.
> 
> Russ

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Sape Mullender]

> how about someone (or two) experts write the standard?
> worked for K&R.
> 
> brucee

That worked.  The UMTS standard, in contrast, was done by 4000 people
and, trust me, it shows.  I ran a received configuration message (30 bytes or
so) through the ASN-1 decoder and ended up with a 5 megabyte C struct.
Amazing.

Sape

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Wes Kussmaul]

Paul Lalonde wrote:

How about all standards committees advising one individual, the 
standards czar, your brilliant expert, with a background in law and 
social science as well as technology, who is able to apply duly 
constituted public authority to a standard. He/she cannot have any 
alliances with anyone but the ITU.


And where will you find any brilliant expert willing to do that job? 
It's guaranteed thankless and without innovation.


Big house with expansive lawn sloping down to Lake Geneva. Lots of 
ITU-paid servants and readers of papers at your beck and call. Maybe a 
string quartet too. And a jester to deliver bad news.



Nothing is as soul-draining as standards arguments.


Let the serfs argue. You rule.

--
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a bit obscure. 


P.K. Iggy
_How I Like Fixed The Internet_
  (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
  and the prosperity that followed)

Re: [9fans] acme mail on unix

[Tim Wiess]

oops, sorry for the noise, didn't mean to send this to the list.


> Russ,
> This is great! I am very eager to try this out.
> However I didn't get the Mail script you attached. It just
> came through as an empty file. Would you mind sending that
> again?
> 
> tim
> 
> 
> > I am sending this from inside acme Mail on Linux.
> > Or at least the program is called Mail.
> > It's not actually the Mail from Plan 9.
> > 
> > I am running mh and have 'customized' it to print
> > something close to sensible output.  Mail itself
> > is a shell script.  The interactive delay is a little
> > annoying sometimes, you have to run inc and Get
> > to check for new mail, and the script itself needs
> > to be cleaned up, but it's still entirely usable.
> > 
> > I have attached my .mh_profile, Mail/mhl.format,
> > Mail/mhl.headers, and the Mail script itself.
> > 
> > Russ

Re: [9fans] acme mail on unix

[Russ Cox]

Mail script should be attached.  This time for sure.

Russ

#!/usr/local/plan9/bin/rc

. 9.rc
. $PLAN9/lib/acme.rc

mh=/usr/bin/mh  # directory with mh binaries

fn event {
# $1 - c1 origin of event
# $2 - c2 type of action
# $3 - q0 beginning of selection
# $4 - q1 end of selection
# $5 - eq0 beginning of expanded selection
# $6 - eq1 end of expanded selection
# $7 - flag
# $8 - nr number of runes in $7
# $9 - text
# $10 - chorded argument
# $11 - origin of chorded argument

switch($1$2){
case E* # write to body or tag
case F* # generated by ourselves; ignore
case K* # type away we do not care
case Mi # mouse: text inserted in tag
case MI # mouse: text inserted in body
case Md # mouse: text deleted from tag
case MD # mouse: text deleted from body

case Mx MX  # button 2 in tag or body
$x $*

case Ml ML  # button 3 in tag or body
$l $* &
}
}

listfmt='%(msg)/%<(mymbox{from})%<{to}To: 
%(decode(friendly{to}))%>%>%<(zero)%(decode(friendly{from}))%>
%(day{date}) %(month{date}) %(mday{date}) %02(hour{date}):%02(min{date})\n  
%(decode{subject})'

fn boxexec {
switch($9){
case Get
echo -n , | winwrite addr
$mh/scan +^$boxname -reverse -format $listfmt | winwrite data
winctl clean
case Mail*
postwin `{echo $9 | sed 's/Mail *//'} &
case *
winwriteevent $*
}
}

fn boxload {
switch($9){
case [0-9]*
msgwin $boxname $9 &
case */Mail/*
f=`{echo $9 | sed 's;/+$;;'}
if(test -d $f){
boxwin $f &
}
if not if(test -f $f){
echo reloading msg
box=`{echo $f | sed 's;/[^/]+$;;'}
num=`{echo $f | sed 's;.*/;;'}
msgwin $box $num &
}
if not
winwriteevent $*
case *
winwriteevent $*
}
}

fn cmd {
$1 - - - - - - - - $2
}

fn boxwin {
newwindow
boxname=$1
winname $boxname
x=boxexec
l=boxload
cmd $x Get
echo -n 'Get Mail ' | winwrite tag
wineventloop
}

fn msgexec {
switch($9){
case Get
echo -n , | winwrite addr
$mh/mhshow -nopause +^$boxname $msgnum | 9 grep -v '^part 
[0-9]?   +text' | 9 fmt -j | winwrite data
winctl clean
case Mail*
postwin `{echo $9 | sed 's/^Mail *//'} &
case Reply*
postwin `{echo $9 | sed 's/^Reply *//'} &
case Delmesg
if(~ $boxname */*){
x=`{echo $boxname | sed 's;.*/;;'}
$mh/refile -src +$x $msgnum +d
winctl del
}
case Spam
if(~ $boxname */*){
x=`{echo $boxname | sed 's;.*/;;'}
$mh/refile -src +$x $msgnum +spam
winctl del
}
case *
winwriteevent $*
}
}

fn msgwin {
newwindow
boxname=$1
msgnum=$2
winname $boxname/$msgnum
shift
shift
x=msgexec
l=boxload
if(~ $boxname */draft){
x=postexec
echo -n 'Post ' | winwrite tag
}
if not
echo -n 'Reply Delmesg ' | winwrite tag
cmd $x Get
wineventloop
}

fn postexec {
switch($9){
case Get
winctl get
case Post
switch($boxname){
case */draft
if(winctl put)
$mh/send -attach Attach -push -draftmessage 
$boxname/$msgnum 
case *
# should copy body into draft file and post it
# can't put - would overwrite good message
echo cannot post from non-draft
}
case Del
# check that window is clean!
winwriteevent $*
case *
winwriteevent $*
}
}

nl='
'
fn postwin {
if(~ $#msgnum 1){
# prepare a reply
winread body | 9 grep -i '^(Reply-To|Subject|From|Message-Id):' 
>/tmp/mail.$pid
winread body | sed '1,/^$/d' | sed 's/^/> /' >/tmp/body.$pid
oifs=$ifs
ifs=$nl
subject=`{9 grep -i '^Subject:' /tmp/mail.$pid | sed 
's/^Subject: *//'}
from=`{9 grep -i '^From:' /tmp/mail.$pid | sed 's/^From: *//'}
msgid=`{9 grep -i '^Message-Id:' $box

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Skip Tavakkolian]

That's nothing compared to the Brokian Ultra-Cricket rule book, that,
according to the Guide (h2g2), was so massive that it underwent a
gravitational collapse under its own weight, causing a massive
blackhole.

>>> How about all standards committees advising one individual, the 
>>> standards czar, your brilliant expert, with a background in law and 
>>> social science as well as technology, who is able to apply duly 
>>> constituted public authority to a standard. He/she cannot have any 
>>> alliances with anyone but the ITU.
>>
>> And where will you find any brilliant expert willing to do that job? 
>> It's guaranteed thankless and without innovation.
> 
> Big house with expansive lawn sloping down to Lake Geneva. Lots of 
> ITU-paid servants and readers of papers at your beck and call. Maybe a 
> string quartet too. And a jester to deliver bad news.
> 
>> Nothing is as soul-draining as standards arguments.
> 
> Let the serfs argue. You rule.

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[andrey mirtchovski]

why not, it's wednesday after all and we're pretty far off topic:

...None of these facts,  however  strange  or  inexplicable,  is  as
strange  or  inexplicable  as  the  rules of the game of Brockian
Ultra-Cricket, as played in the higher dimensions. A full set  of
rules  is  so  massively complicated that the only time they were
all  bound  together  in  a   single   volume,   they   underwent
gravitational collapse and became a Black Hole.

A brief summary, however, is as follows:

Rule One: Grow at least three extra legs. You  won't  need  them,
but it keeps the crowds amused.

Rule Two: Find one good Brockian Ultra-Cricket player. Clone  him
off  a  few  times.  This  saves  an  enormous  amount of tedious
selection and training.

Rule Three: Put your team and the opposing team in a large  field
and build a high wall round them.

The reason for this is that, though the game is a major spectator
sport,  the  frustration  experienced  by  the  audience  at  not
actually being able to see what's going on leads them to  imagine
that it's a lot more exciting than it really is. A crowd that has
just watched a rather humdrum game  experiences  far  less  life-
affirmation  than  a  crowd  that believes it has just missed the
most dramatic event in sporting history.

Rule Four: Throw lots of assorted  items  of  sporting  equipment
over  the  wall for the players. Anything will do - cricket bats,
basecube bats, tennis guns, skis, anything you  can  get  a  good
swing with.

Rule Five: The players should now lay about  themselves  for  all
they are worth with whatever they find to hand. Whenever a player
scores a "hit" on another player, he should immediately run  away
and apologize from a safe distance.

Apologies should be concise, sincere and, for maximum clarity and
points, delivered through a megaphone.

Rule Six: The winning team shall be the first team that wins.

[and elsewhere]

"Let's be blunt, it's a nasty  game"  (says  The  Hitch  Hiker's
Guide  to the Galaxy) "but then anyone who has been to any of the
higher dimensions will know that they're a pretty  nasty  heathen
lot  up  there  who should just be smashed and done in, and would
be, too, if anyone could work out a way  of  firing  missiles  at
right-angles to reality."

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Joel Salomon]

On 1/18/06, Skip Tavakkolian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's nothing compared to the Brokian Ultra-Cricket rule book, that,
> according to the Guide (h2g2), was so massive that it underwent a
> gravitational collapse under its own weight, causing a massive
> blackhole.

In the process of listening to the original radio series — I believe
it's h2g3 that talks of BUC.

> Rule Three: Put your team and the opposing team in a large  field
> and build a high wall round them.
>
> The reason for this is that, though the game is a major spectator
> sport,  the  frustration  experienced  by  the  audience  at  not
> actually being able to see what's going on leads them to  imagine
> that it's a lot more exciting than it really is. A crowd that has
> just watched a rather humdrum game  experiences  far  less  life-
> affirmation  than  a  crowd  that believes it has just missed the
> most dramatic event in sporting history.

I've been lurking on a standard revision committee (IE³ 754R). 
Interesting exposure to numerics, but little "life affirmation".  ;)

--Joel

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Bruce Ellis]

what cricket is on the tv today?  when do i have to get to pub?
why is life so complex?  ken once commented that a simple
RCA connector was not standardized but everyone agreed
to make them the same.  there are zillions in the world.
maybe it was standandized post factum.

brucee

On 1/19/06, andrey mirtchovski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> why not, it's wednesday after all and we're pretty far off topic:
>
> ...None of these facts,  however  strange  or  inexplicable,  is  as
> strange  or  inexplicable  as  the  rules of the game of Brockian
> Ultra-Cricket, as played in the higher dimensions. A full set  of
> rules  is  so  massively complicated that the only time they were
> all  bound  together  in  a   single   volume,   they   underwent
> gravitational collapse and became a Black Hole.
>
> A brief summary, however, is as follows:
>
> Rule One: Grow at least three extra legs. You  won't  need  them,
> but it keeps the crowds amused.
>
> Rule Two: Find one good Brockian Ultra-Cricket player. Clone  him
> off  a  few  times.  This  saves  an  enormous  amount of tedious
> selection and training.
>
> Rule Three: Put your team and the opposing team in a large  field
> and build a high wall round them.
>
> The reason for this is that, though the game is a major spectator
> sport,  the  frustration  experienced  by  the  audience  at  not
> actually being able to see what's going on leads them to  imagine
> that it's a lot more exciting than it really is. A crowd that has
> just watched a rather humdrum game  experiences  far  less  life-
> affirmation  than  a  crowd  that believes it has just missed the
> most dramatic event in sporting history.
>
> Rule Four: Throw lots of assorted  items  of  sporting  equipment
> over  the  wall for the players. Anything will do - cricket bats,
> basecube bats, tennis guns, skis, anything you  can  get  a  good
> swing with.
>
> Rule Five: The players should now lay about  themselves  for  all
> they are worth with whatever they find to hand. Whenever a player
> scores a "hit" on another player, he should immediately run  away
> and apologize from a safe distance.
>
> Apologies should be concise, sincere and, for maximum clarity and
> points, delivered through a megaphone.
>
> Rule Six: The winning team shall be the first team that wins.
>
> [and elsewhere]
>
> "Let's be blunt, it's a nasty  game"  (says  The  Hitch  Hiker's
> Guide  to the Galaxy) "but then anyone who has been to any of the
> higher dimensions will know that they're a pretty  nasty  heathen
> lot  up  there  who should just be smashed and done in, and would
> be, too, if anyone could work out a way  of  firing  missiles  at
> right-angles to reality."
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Adrian Tritschler]

Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> read "the art of networking style" for a great rant on standards.
> 
> Note that film standards are ISO/DIN numbers -- not one number, two.
> That's how they resolved how to pick the #.
> 
> 48 byte cells came from standards.

Ah, but think of the elegance that comes from adding an odd byte-length
of header to result in a prime-number sized packet :-)

> ron
Adrian

---
Adrian Tritschler  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Latitude 38°S, Longitude 145°E, Altitude 50m,  Shoe size 44
---

Re: [9fans] Brdline

[Bruce Ellis]

or making irrational assumptions about what the compiler does
without ever reading K&R.

brucee

On 1/19/06, Adrian Tritschler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> > read "the art of networking style" for a great rant on standards.
> >
> > Note that film standards are ISO/DIN numbers -- not one number, two.
> > That's how they resolved how to pick the #.
> >
> > 48 byte cells came from standards.
>
> Ah, but think of the elegance that comes from adding an odd byte-length
> of header to result in a prime-number sized packet :-)
>
> > ron
>Adrian
>
> ---
> Adrian Tritschler  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Latitude 38°S, Longitude 145°E, Altitude 50m,  Shoe size 44
> ---
>