Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oppo BDP-105 - Measurements up!
How do I listen using my eyes? I've not worked this out yet. probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98187 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oppo BDP-105 - Measurements up!
probedb wrote: How do I listen using my eyes? I've not worked this out yet. Some of us spent years and years at university just to learn to read graphs like those, and we still keep learning new things. They don't replace listening, but complement critical, controlled blind listening. Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98187 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: I did some measurements of the Oppo BDP-105 late last week which I'll post in the days ahead (hint - it's really good!). For now, I'd like to put some pressure on ASUS to fix the Essence One firmware - upsampling is broken! Slightly off topic: I've owned the Oppo BDP-83 (the first Oppo blu-ray player) for about 3 years and it's a very good player. Sounds great, plays almost any kind of disc and it makes regular DVD's look great. I do a have few minor complaints: the disc drawer sometimes does not open without having to press the eject button several times, the Ethernet functions (the BDP-83 does not have Wi-Fi) do not work so I disconnected the Ethernet and Oppo has stopped updating the firmware several years ago (a big no-no). My biggest complaint is not with Oppo but the blu-ray format which is that with almost all blu-ray discs one cannot bypass the damn previews and other other annoying crap that they put at the beginning of the disc. And if one stops a blu-ray movie in the middle most of the discs do not allow to resume playing at the point you left off - it's usually back the beginning and having to manually skip all those damn previews again. Anyway my full Home Theater setup should read: Touch/Oppo BDP-83/WD TV Live media streamer/cable box - Marantz SR8400 HTR - Energy Veritas 2.1 (front), Totem Signature (center), Mission 780 (rear) Linn subwoofer with a 47 LG LCD HDTV The Oppo is connected to the LG HDTV via HDMI and to the Marantz via both coax digital (for regular DVDs with DTS or Dolby Digital) and 5.1 analog (for SACD/DVD-Audio/blu-ray high resolution playback). The saddest thing about blu-ray is that the vast majority of people have really, really, really bad audio playback systems, if they have a separate audio system at all because blu-ray audio is usually high resolution and very good. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oppo BDP-105 - Measurements up!
probedb wrote: How do I listen using my eyes? I've not worked this out yet. Nobody's asking anyone to listen with eyes... Like Julf said it's complementary. IMO, when it comes to audio tech, good engineering comes first then lets validate with the ears, not the other way around if I'm going to be putting my money down. I shudder at the thought of gear being tested just by ear (http://nwavguy.blogspot.ca/2011/02/nuforce-udac-2-drama.html)... If it weren't for the measurements, I'd be very hard for the ears to prove: 1. XLR cables clearly better than RCA in my noisy i7 computing environment down below -100dB with just a 3' length of cable. 2. My ASUS Essence One has some really strange frequency response spectra (including up to 24/192 in the ultrasonic range). 3. Crazy high jitter with that MUSE NOS DAC. 4. The TT3 mod doesn't change the noise level or improve dynamic range even with screen off, WiFi off, parameters optimized, etc... 5. With the Touch, WiFi on does not add to noise. 6. Even a 15' length of USB cable doesn't cause major jitter with the Oppo. 7. There were small differences in stereo crosstalk between one of my AudioQuest vs. Tributaries cables and let me chose which was better. 8. The stock Touch analogue output has minimum jitter. These are just 8 observations found in these tests which I would likely never have known or been able to prove with ears (though some of the above would be logical). In this day and age where instrumentation is part of our daily lives, it's just mind boggling that audiophiles do not seem to appreciate that audio gear these days are capable of achieving results BEYOND human hearing in many/most parameters. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98187 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oppo BDP-105 - Measurements up!
Archimago wrote: In this day and age where instrumentation is part of our daily lives, it's just mind boggling that audiophiles do not seem to appreciate that audio gear these days are capable of achieving results BEYOND human hearing in many/most parameters. This one is a good primer (that also debunks some old digital audio myths): 'Xiph.org: Digital Show Tell' (http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml). Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98187 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oppo BDP-105 - Measurements up!
Lovely link Julf! Watching it right now... Great demonstration of dither and noise shaping. Definitely required viewing for audiophiles who want to understand digital audio and start reversing the decades of FUD. There is of course one example of stairstepping analogue output he hinted at - zero-order-hold DAC's - aka NOS DAC's. Outdated technology but still well loved :-| http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02/measurements-muse-mini-tda1543x4-nos-dac.html Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98187 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oppo BDP-105 - Measurements up!
Great..the jitter graph looks really nice. Thanks Archimago. So does better measurements correlate with better sound subjectively ? Otherwise, it might be just a waste of engineering effort. Maybe the companies are building over-speced pieces just to justify the high-price of the equipment. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98187 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Ok I have measured transporter and touch on AP2722. I've only looked at digital out as promised. Here is the run down: Transporter: AES/EBU 377.3-424.5 ps SPDIF RCA 566 ps SPDIF BNC 283-330.2 ps (rca cable with 2 bnc adapters yielded the same results) Toslink 1.462 - 4.103 ps depending on the cable used. I've tested 4 or 5 different toslink cables. Touch: SPDIF RCA 377.3 - 324.5 ps Toslink 1.604 ps I can upload the screenshots if it matters. tpaxadpom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oppo BDP-105 - Measurements up!
probedb wrote: How do I listen using my eyes? I've not worked this out yet. Listen to or trough your hifi ( to the music ) ;) This tells you that the oppo is pretty much transparent to the source material . Hence f gonna pay more than this for a player it has to do better. If your listening to your hifi all bets are of on what's constitutes good for you. Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98187 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oppo BDP-105 - Measurements up!
SoftwireEngineer wrote: So does better measurements correlate with better sound subjectively ? Otherwise, it might be just a waste of engineering effort. Maybe the companies are building over-speced pieces just to justify the high-price of the equipment. That's of course a very important question. In order to answer this question, we must be sure we're measuring the correct variables which make audio sound good. I think it's quite clear that a full frequency response, low noise floor, good stereo separation, minimal harmonic and intermodulation distortion are all quite important... Others like DAC linearity, phase distortions, square wave performance could also be important but not something I can easily measure with the RightMark suite (actually phase measurements are done but I haven't focused much on them yet). Also, jitter is not part of the RightMark suite which is why they have to be produced separately with WaveSpectra in my measurements. Obviously different pieces of equipment will have different variables to explore (eg. slew rates, power vs. THD in amps). IMO, I think we do know the relevant variables to measure for sound quality and the correlation between measurements and perceived quality is likely quite high. After all, it is out of this science that we can produce excellent sounding lossy compressed audio for example (a nice marriage of digital sampling theory + perceptual psychoacoustics). Over the years, whenever I've brought up measurements, many audiophiles will say stuff like there's great measuring gear that sound bad! When I ask them to show me one, they'll usually get all vague and talk about Sansui gear from the 70's. I dunno, were there articles showing this in the 70's and 80's that I missed (maybe this is a reference to high power ratings but poor distortion back in the day)? Reading Stereophile, I've seen many instances of the subjective reviewer liking a piece of gear but the objective measurements showing poor performance; or both confirming that the gear sounds bad/good... However, has anyone yet seen a recent article where a broad measurement suite points to *fantastic measurements* but the gear is said to sound bad subjectively? Last year, when John Atkinson measured the AudioNote CD player (the measurements were crappy), he said The CD-4.1x is a paradox: does it sound good because of how it measures or despite it? I'd love to see an article where he says This piece of gear measures like state-of-the-art but despite that, it sounds awful! Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98187 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
ralphpnj wrote: Slightly off topic: I've owned the Oppo BDP-83 (the first Oppo blu-ray player) for about 3 years and it's a very good player. Sounds great, plays almost any kind of disc and it makes regular DVD's look great. I do a have few minor complaints: the disc drawer sometimes does not open without having to press the eject button several times, the Ethernet functions (the BDP-83 does not have Wi-Fi) do not work so I disconnected the Ethernet and Oppo has stopped updating the firmware several years ago (a big no-no). My biggest complaint is not with Oppo but the blu-ray format which is that with almost all blu-ray discs one cannot bypass the damn previews and other other annoying crap that they put at the beginning of the disc. And if one stops a blu-ray movie in the middle most of the discs do not allow to resume playing at the point you left off - it's usually back the beginning and having to manually skip all those damn previews again. Anyway my full Home Theater setup should read: Touch/Oppo BDP-83/WD TV Live media streamer/cable box - Marantz SR8400 HTR - Energy Veritas 2.1 (front), Totem Signature (center), Mission 780 (rear) Linn subwoofer with a 47 LG LCD HDTV The Oppo is connected to the LG HDTV via HDMI and to the Marantz via both coax digital (for regular DVDs with DTS or Dolby Digital) and 5.1 analog (for SACD/DVD-Audio/blu-ray high resolution playback). The saddest thing about blu-ray is that the vast majority of people have really, really, really bad audio playback systems, if they have a separate audio system at all because blu-ray audio is usually high resolution and very good. Hey, sounds like you need to upgrade to the BDP-105 - clearly your BDP-83 is old and busted ;-) Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
tpaxadpom wrote: Ok I have measured transporter and touch on AP2722. I've only looked at digital out as promised. Here is the run down: Transporter: AES/EBU 377.3-424.5 ps SPDIF RCA 566 ps SPDIF BNC 283-330.2 ps (rca cable with 2 bnc adapters yielded the same results) Toslink 1.462 - 4.103 ps depending on the cable used. I've tested 4 or 5 different toslink cables. Touch: SPDIF RCA 377.3 - 324.5 ps Toslink 1.604 ps I can upload the screenshots if it matters. Thanks! Very nice... Looks like I should see an improvement switching over from TosLink -- AES/EBU for the digital loop! Do you mind if I add your data to my blog page? Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
tpaxadpom wrote: Ok I have measured transporter and touch on AP2722. I've only looked at digital out as promised. Here is the run down: Transporter: AES/EBU 377.3-424.5 ps SPDIF RCA 566 ps SPDIF BNC 283-330.2 ps (rca cable with 2 bnc adapters yielded the same results) Toslink 1.462 - 4.103 ps depending on the cable used. I've tested 4 or 5 different toslink cables. Touch: SPDIF RCA 377.3 - 324.5 ps Toslink 1.604 ps I can upload the screenshots if it matters. Archimago wrote: Thanks! Very nice... Looks like I should see an improvement switching over from TosLink -- AES/EBU for the digital loop! That's a huge variability in the TosLink cables - wow! Was this related to length? Brand name cables? Do you mind if I add your data to my blog page? If I am reading the results correctly what we are taking about is jitter (it is jitter which is being measured, correct?) that is at worst just above 0.5 nanoseconds (SPDIF RCA 566 ps = 0.566 ns) and at just below 0.002 nanoseconds (Toslink 1.462ps = 0.00146 ns). Which just proves what I've been saying all along: JITTER at this level is inaudible by any living person. The audiophile approach to jitter: http://www.avguide.com/forums/jitter-audibility-robert-harley-and-keith-johnson-comment (Remember these gentlemen are really salesmen regardless of the other job titles.) The reasonable, scientific approach to jitter: http://davidkessner.wordpress.com/2011/10/27/a-pragmatic-approach-to-jitter-in-digital-audio/ (Remember this gentleman has nothing to sell.) Even with all the math and formulas the second article is easier to understand and the author talks only about jitter and not early analog tape recorders as first article does. In fact the first article is very good example of FUD. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
ralphpnj wrote: If I am reading the results correctly what we are taking about is jitter (it is jitter which is being measured, correct?) that is at worst just above 0.5 nanoseconds (SPDIF RCA 566 ps = 0.566 ns) and at just below 0.002 nanoseconds (Toslink 1.462ps = 0.00146 ns). Which just proves what I've been saying all along: JITTER at this level is inaudible by any living person. The audiophile approach to jitter: http://www.avguide.com/forums/jitter-audibility-robert-harley-and-keith-johnson-comment (Remember these gentlemen are really salesmen regardless of the other job titles.) The reasonable, scientific approach to jitter: http://davidkessner.wordpress.com/2011/10/27/a-pragmatic-approach-to-jitter-in-digital-audio/ (Remember this gentleman has nothing to sell.) Even with all the math and formulas the second article is easier to understand and the author talks only about jitter and not early analog tape recorders as first article does. In fact the first article is very good example of FUD. Maybe I read it wrong... I thought for example the 1.462 ps was 1,462 ps (ie. 1.462 ns). For TosLink to have such low jitter of only 1.xx ps seems counter intuitive to me... Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: Maybe I read it wrong... I thought for example the 1.462 ps was 1,462 ps (ie. 1.462 ns). For TosLink to have such low jitter of only 1.xx ps seems counter intuitive to me... Must be that el-cheap Ethernet cable that you're using that changed the ps to an ns, you know the same kind of cable that induces jitter. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
