Fwd: Evangelical Lutherans to vote on gay ordination, unions
And the old order continues to crumble...Note: forwarded message attached.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
--- Begin Message ---
Title: EMAIL THIS Email
Powered by
* Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified.
You have received the following link from [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Click the following to access the sent link:
USATODAY.com - Evangelical Lutherans to vote on gay ordination, unions*
Get your EMAIL THIS Browser Button and use it to email information from any Web site.
*This article can also be accessed if you copy and paste the entire address below into your web browser.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2005-08-07-lutheransgayvote_x.htm?POE=click-refer
--- End Message ---
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Firestarter
Thanks Ron,
Good to hear your voice. Shouldn't have gone on so long that you didn't get
a chance to ask questions. I was a little nervous about the direction some
of the questions were going, if you know what I mean.
warmest, Susan
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ursus Maximus
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 9:02 PM
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: Re: Firestarter
Well Dr. Maneck gave a very interesting talk on Firestarter tonight!
;-)) I am glad I was able to "be there".
Ron
On 8/7/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 8/7/05 10:04:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> >Hello Susan,
> >
> >Is there any chance you could record a digital copy of your talk? It
> >sounds interesting, and if it were recorded on an mp3 player (like and
> >iPod or iRiver etc.) it could be re-used in various ettings. I'd love
> >to spot it as a podcast on my podcast series, for instance. Even if
> >you could get a regular old analog recording on a tape recorder, it
> >coudl proabably be converted to a digital copy later.
>
> Yes, that's easy to do; I've been converting my music collection from
vinyl
> and tape to CD and .mp3 format, and the only price has been the cost of a
patch
> cord/adapter to connect my stereo to my computer. There are freeware
> recording applications available on the net for those who don't already
have something
> appropriate on their machines, and most of them have an interface that
looks
> just like an analog tape recorder so there's no learning curve involved.
>
> >I amy try to call in tonight.
> >
> >Ron Stephens
>
> I'd like to participate too (just to hear what Susan sounds like, if
nothing
> else ), but unfortunately I have a prior commitment. However, if
somebody
> could send me a tape of the event, I'd be happy to convert it to AIFF (or
.mp3
> if it runs longer than an hour or so and won't fit on a standard audio CD)
and
> send it on to Ron if he doesn't make it to the show. :)
>
> --Sekhmet
>
> >On 8/6/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi folks,
> >>
> >> I just thought I'd let you know that I will be giving the Firestarter
> >> Presentation tomorrow night at 9:00EST. For those of you not familiar
> >with
> >> Firestarter, it is more or less a phone-in fireside. I'll be talking
> >on the
> >> topic of Faith and Reason, sort of in preparation for my talk next week
> >at
> >> the Association of Baha'i Studies in Boston. You can join this fireside
> >by
> >> dialing: 1-212-461-5830. Then type in the - Pin Code 5830#
> >>
> >> warmest, Susan
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
> __
>
>
> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe:
http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
> Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
> Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
> News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
> Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
>
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jcc
Re: Firestarter
Well Dr. Maneck gave a very interesting talk on Firestarter tonight!
;-)) I am glad I was able to "be there".
Ron
On 8/7/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 8/7/05 10:04:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> >Hello Susan,
> >
> >Is there any chance you could record a digital copy of your talk? It
> >sounds interesting, and if it were recorded on an mp3 player (like and
> >iPod or iRiver etc.) it could be re-used in various ettings. I'd love
> >to spot it as a podcast on my podcast series, for instance. Even if
> >you could get a regular old analog recording on a tape recorder, it
> >coudl proabably be converted to a digital copy later.
>
> Yes, that's easy to do; I've been converting my music collection from vinyl
> and tape to CD and .mp3 format, and the only price has been the cost of a
> patch
> cord/adapter to connect my stereo to my computer. There are freeware
> recording applications available on the net for those who don't already have
> something
> appropriate on their machines, and most of them have an interface that looks
> just like an analog tape recorder so there's no learning curve involved.
>
> >I amy try to call in tonight.
> >
> >Ron Stephens
>
> I'd like to participate too (just to hear what Susan sounds like, if nothing
> else ), but unfortunately I have a prior commitment. However, if somebody
> could send me a tape of the event, I'd be happy to convert it to AIFF (or .mp3
> if it runs longer than an hour or so and won't fit on a standard audio CD) and
> send it on to Ron if he doesn't make it to the show. :)
>
> --Sekhmet
>
> >On 8/6/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi folks,
> >>
> >> I just thought I'd let you know that I will be giving the Firestarter
> >> Presentation tomorrow night at 9:00EST. For those of you not familiar
> >with
> >> Firestarter, it is more or less a phone-in fireside. I'll be talking
> >on the
> >> topic of Faith and Reason, sort of in preparation for my talk next week
> >at
> >> the Association of Baha'i Studies in Boston. You can join this fireside
> >by
> >> dialing: 1-212-461-5830. Then type in the - Pin Code 5830#
> >>
> >> warmest, Susan
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
> __
>
>
> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
> Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
> Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
> News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
> Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
>
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Firestarter
In a message dated 8/7/05 10:04:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>Hello Susan,
>
>Is there any chance you could record a digital copy of your talk? It
>sounds interesting, and if it were recorded on an mp3 player (like and
>iPod or iRiver etc.) it could be re-used in various ettings. I'd love
>to spot it as a podcast on my podcast series, for instance. Even if
>you could get a regular old analog recording on a tape recorder, it
>coudl proabably be converted to a digital copy later.
Yes, that's easy to do; I've been converting my music collection from vinyl
and tape to CD and .mp3 format, and the only price has been the cost of a patch
cord/adapter to connect my stereo to my computer. There are freeware
recording applications available on the net for those who don't already have
something
appropriate on their machines, and most of them have an interface that looks
just like an analog tape recorder so there's no learning curve involved.
>I amy try to call in tonight.
>
>Ron Stephens
I'd like to participate too (just to hear what Susan sounds like, if nothing
else ), but unfortunately I have a prior commitment. However, if somebody
could send me a tape of the event, I'd be happy to convert it to AIFF (or .mp3
if it runs longer than an hour or so and won't fit on a standard audio CD) and
send it on to Ron if he doesn't make it to the show. :)
--Sekhmet
>On 8/6/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I just thought I'd let you know that I will be giving the Firestarter
>> Presentation tomorrow night at 9:00EST. For those of you not familiar
>with
>> Firestarter, it is more or less a phone-in fireside. I'll be talking
>on the
>> topic of Faith and Reason, sort of in preparation for my talk next week
>at
>> the Association of Baha'i Studies in Boston. You can join this fireside
>by
>> dialing: 1-212-461-5830. Then type in the - Pin Code 5830#
>>
>> warmest, Susan
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Quran reading questions
"I also like the attention Mr
Sells gives to the auditory sound and poetry etc."
Dear Ron,
That is what I like about Sells. He has a better appreciation for the beauty
of the Qur'an and is able to convey it better than any translator I know.
"Is the concept of
"Abrogation" of earlier verses by later verses considerd valid? Is it
acceptd orthodoxy in Sunni, Shia and/or Baha'i theology?"
I think it is, but not to abrogate verses like "Let there by no compulsion
in religion." The things that were abrogated were things like the Qiblih
being in Jerusalem.
"Worst case, I am wasting
my time studying the early Meccan suras, if they were mostly abrogated
by later verses (obviously I don't really think so)."
The cases of abrogation are really quite rare. I wouldn't worry about it.
"But Abrogation
worries me. Can someone help me by convincing me that Abrogation is
bogus?"
I don't think it is bogus. Baha'u'llah once revealed obligatory prayers
different from the ones we currently use, so it can happy. What I think you
are having trouble with is those who are using the theory of abrogation to
justify killing, etc.
warmest, Susan
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Firestarter
"Uh, I'm not techie enough to
Is there any chance you could record a digital copy of your talk? It sounds
interesting, and if it were recorded on an mp3 player (like and iPod or
iRiver etc."
Uh, I'm not techie enough for that sort of thing Ron, but it is possible the
folks who run Firestarter make a recording.
warmest, Susan
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Peter Abelard vs St. Bernard
"The independent search for truth should end once you find the truth.
If it doesn't end there, then you haven't found the truth."
Dear Dean,
Well, thanks for proving my case to Gilberto. ;-}
It would not make much sense for us to have a principle aimed at non-Baha'is
and not applicable to ourselves. Truth, in the ultimate sense, is not
something we find, put in our pockets and claim to possess. Shoghi Effendi,
in his letter to the United National Special Palestine commission stated
that the Faith "enjoins upon its followers the primary duty of an unfettered
search after truth."
Note he said followers, not seekers. In a talk Ian Semple gave on obedience
in which he made this comment:
"The continuing exercise of our search for truth enables the followers of a
true Prophet to draw ever closer to Him, to absorb His teachings and to
integrate them into their lives. The same principle when applied by the
followers of a false prophet will enable them, sooner or later, to discover
his falsity. This is why it is false prophets who, above all, require blind
obedience from their followers. They fear the truth--and for very good
reason. But how can He who is Truth itself ever suffer from the pursuit of
truth by His followers?"
Likewise the Universal House of Justice wrote me the following:
"As you well understand, not only the right but also the responsibility of
each BELIEVER to explore truth for himself or herself are fundamental to the
Baha'i teachings. This principle is an integral feature of the coming of age
of humankind, inseparable from the social transformation to which
Baha'u'llah is calling the peoples of the world. It is as relevant to
specifically scholarly activity as it is to the rest of spiritual and
intellectual life. Every human being is ultimately responsible to God for
the use which he or she makes of these possibilities; conscience is never to
be coerced, whether by other individuals or institutions."
http://methodologies.susanmaneck.com/
warmest, Susan
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Quran reading questions
Dear Ursus, A good book which covers alot of different subjects related to the Quran from a mainstream sunni perspective is Ulum al Qur'an (Sciences of the Quran) by Ahmad von Denffer which is available free, online at http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/Denffer_uaq/ It has a chapter on abrogation in the Quran. I think it would be safe to say that the majority of sunni scholars accept the idea of abrogation in the Quran; the idea that the legal ruling associated with an earlier verse was eliminated and replaced by the legal ruling of a later verse. Some say the proof of the concept of abrogation is found in the Quran itself: 'None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause it to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou that God has power over all things?' (2: 106). [Some however say that this refers to the revelations before the Qur'an, which have now been substituted by the Qur'an itself. See Mawdudi. The Meaning of the Qur'an, Lahore, 1967, Vol. I, p.102. note 109.] But even among scholars who accept abrogation, there is not a consensus of precisely which verses abrogate which other verses. According to Denffer, Shah Waliullah (a major Muslim scholar and reformer from the subcontinent) only recognized 5 examples of abrogation. Others believe that there are many more. Some alleged cases of abrogation mgiht really just be cases where one verse merely explains or adds nuances or exceptions to another verse rather than replacing it altogether. A really good example of this ambiguity would be the case of drinking in the Quran... which is probably the most commonly used example for abrogation. At different times, were revelaed verse which said roughly "don't pray when you are drunk" "drinking has some good and bad in it, but the bad outweighs the good" and finally a clear statent that drinking is totally condemned. You *could* say that one replaced the other, but from another perspective.. all the verses are still equally valid. For example, you still shouldn't pray when you are drunk. In terms of whether abrogation is "bogus" I would tend not to think of it that way. I think the above verse of the Quran is sufficient for me not to rule out the concept entirely. But I tend to not like the idea that there are parts of the Quran which were only meant ot last for a few years but are now of absolutely no use or legal import. So if presented with an alleged case of abrogation I would prefer to find a way of reading both verses which will allow one to accept both as still valid. By the way, If you look at the Ahmadiyyah movement, (if I remember correctly) they also reject the idea of abrogation within the Quran I didn't get it to display properly here but it might on your computer... In the book "The Religion of Islam" by Maulana Muhammad Ali http://aaiil.org/text/books/mali/religionislam/religionislammuhammadali.shtml if you look at the chapter on the Quran that could present you with an argument against abrogation. Peace Gilberto On 8/7/05, Ursus Maximus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello all,I have decided to start my Quranic studies (re-studies?) with MichaelSells rendering of the earl Suras. You brought this to my attention, Dr. Maneck.I bought his book yesterday and it includes a CD of Recitals of theearly suras. I already like the approach it takes. By focusing on theearly suras, adn readign them in the order they were revealed, I can gradually get my feet wet with the Quran. I also like the attention MrSells gives to the auditory sound and poetry etc.One question I want to ask the group again. Is the concept of"Abrogation" of earlier verses by later verses considerd valid? Is it acceptd orthodoxy in Sunni, Shia and/or Baha'i theology? Is there anyevidence in teh Quran to approve or disaprove of teh theory ofAbrogation? It seems like an important issue. Worst case, I am wastingmy time studying the early Meccan suras, if they were mostly abrogated by later verses (obviously I don't really think so). But Abrogationworries me. Can someone help me by convincing me that Abrogation isbogus?RonOn 8/7/05, Ursus Maximus < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> Hello Susan,>> Is there any chance you could record a digital copy of your talk? It> sounds interesting, and if it were recorded on an mp3 player (like and > iPod or iRiver etc.) it could be re-used in various ettings. I'd love> to spot it as a podcast on my podcast series, for instance. Even if> you could get a regular old analog recording on a tape recorder, it > coudl proabably be converted to a digital copy later.>> I amy try to call in tonight.>> Ron Stephens>> On 8/6/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:> > Hi folks,> >> > I just thought I'd let you know that I will be giving the Firestarter> > Presentation tomorrow night at 9:00EST. For those of you not familiar with > > Firestarter, it is more or less a phone-in fireside. I'll be talking on the> > topic of Faith and Reason, sort
Re: Peter Abelard vs. St. Bernard [with reference to Brother Dean]
On 8/7/05, Khazeh Fananapazir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Brother Gilberto wrote:Gilberto:I was struck by the "independent investigation of truth" because of you are suggesting that this tension in Christianity is echoed in the Bahai faith, it seems to me that since IIT is a Bahai principle mentioned in the writings, ALL Bahais, no matter what side of the argument they are on, will say they believe in "the independent investigation of truth" but then the difference will be what they mean by the phrase.
Susan replied:Dear Gilberto,That much is true. But there are some Baha'is who take the position that the independent search for truth ends once you become a Baha'i.
Gilberto:
Would you take that position?
and then Dean wrote:The independent search for truth should end once you find the truth.If it doesn't end there, then you haven't found the truth.
Gilberto:
I think it depends on what kind of truth you are talking about. I think life should be a continual search for greater understanding, increasing in knowledge and wisdom. And there is always more work which can be done. Some people don't know that there is a God. But you and I can agree that there is one. But do we stop there? No. There is still the question of identifying his prophets. You and I can agree that Muhammad (saaws) was a prophet? But do we stop there? No, because there is a question of which religion understands his role properly Islam? The Bahai faith? Cao Dai? Some other faith?
And even afterwards there is the question of whether sunni or shia Islam is the correct interpretation. And among each one, which school of thought is the most correct. And among the scholars in a given school of thought, which should one follow. And even if you've picked a particular scholar, you aren't expected to turn your brain off.
God gave you an intellect. In some hadith, the first thing God created was the Intellect. Why would he have given us such a beautiful, powerful gift and then not expect us to use it?
Khazeh writes:And then this servant would add something.Please accept it all in a spirit of friendship not argument.
Gilberto:
That's ok. I'm not sure why your comments would be directed at me anyway. I definitely think that people should continue to grow and learn, and deepen in their understanding. I'm not saying there is no further need for investigation. I think it would be arrogant for a person to think that they had the whole truth figured out and had nothing else to learn from anybody else.
But I don't think that is inconsistent with saying that the Islamic dispensation is a huge Ocean of wisdom which is sufficient for us as human beings.
Peace
Gilberto
-- "pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush"
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Quran reading questions
Hello all,
I have decided to start my Quranic studies (re-studies?) with Michael
Sells rendering of the earl Suras. You brought this to my attention,
Dr. Maneck.
I bought his book yesterday and it includes a CD of Recitals of the
early suras. I already like the approach it takes. By focusing on the
early suras, adn readign them in the order they were revealed, I can
gradually get my feet wet with the Quran. I also like the attention Mr
Sells gives to the auditory sound and poetry etc.
One question I want to ask the group again. Is the concept of
"Abrogation" of earlier verses by later verses considerd valid? Is it
acceptd orthodoxy in Sunni, Shia and/or Baha'i theology? Is there any
evidence in teh Quran to approve or disaprove of teh theory of
Abrogation? It seems like an important issue. Worst case, I am wasting
my time studying the early Meccan suras, if they were mostly abrogated
by later verses (obviously I don't really think so). But Abrogation
worries me. Can someone help me by convincing me that Abrogation is
bogus?
Ron
On 8/7/05, Ursus Maximus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Susan,
>
> Is there any chance you could record a digital copy of your talk? It
> sounds interesting, and if it were recorded on an mp3 player (like and
> iPod or iRiver etc.) it could be re-used in various ettings. I'd love
> to spot it as a podcast on my podcast series, for instance. Even if
> you could get a regular old analog recording on a tape recorder, it
> coudl proabably be converted to a digital copy later.
>
> I amy try to call in tonight.
>
> Ron Stephens
>
> On 8/6/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > I just thought I'd let you know that I will be giving the Firestarter
> > Presentation tomorrow night at 9:00EST. For those of you not familiar with
> > Firestarter, it is more or less a phone-in fireside. I'll be talking on the
> > topic of Faith and Reason, sort of in preparation for my talk next week at
> > the Association of Baha'i Studies in Boston. You can join this fireside by
> > dialing: 1-212-461-5830. Then type in the - Pin Code 5830#
> >
> > warmest, Susan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> > ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> > intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
> > entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
> > privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
> > message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
> > dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly
> > prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately
> > notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this
> > e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
> >
> >
> > __
> >
> >
> > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
> > Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
> > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
> > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
> > News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
> > Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
> > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
> > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
> >
>
> __
> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
> Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
> Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
> News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
> Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
>
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
Ne
Re: Firestarter
Hello Susan,
Is there any chance you could record a digital copy of your talk? It
sounds interesting, and if it were recorded on an mp3 player (like and
iPod or iRiver etc.) it could be re-used in various ettings. I'd love
to spot it as a podcast on my podcast series, for instance. Even if
you could get a regular old analog recording on a tape recorder, it
coudl proabably be converted to a digital copy later.
I amy try to call in tonight.
Ron Stephens
On 8/6/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I just thought I'd let you know that I will be giving the Firestarter
> Presentation tomorrow night at 9:00EST. For those of you not familiar with
> Firestarter, it is more or less a phone-in fireside. I'll be talking on the
> topic of Faith and Reason, sort of in preparation for my talk next week at
> the Association of Baha'i Studies in Boston. You can join this fireside by
> dialing: 1-212-461-5830. Then type in the - Pin Code 5830#
>
> warmest, Susan
>
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
> __
>
>
> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
> Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
> Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
> News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
> Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
>
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Peter Abelard vs St. Bernard
Dick, Khazeh (and others) make what I see as the salient point in the
discussion.
'Abdu'l-Baha points out that the investigation of truth must lead a
soul to the realization of the Manifest One… (Bahá'í World Faith -
Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 251)
"His Holiness Bahá'u'lláh has revoiced and re-established the
quintessence of the teachings of all the prophets, setting aside the
accessories and purifying religion from human interpretation. He has
written a book entitled Hidden Words. … Read it that you may
understand the true foundations of religion and reflect upon the
inspiration of the messengers of God. It is light upon light."
We are "summoned" to find the source of all knowledge and in the
process of unique consultation with oneself, take action.
"…we must investigate truth at its divine source and summon all
mankind to unity in the reality itself."
I would agree that we Bahá'ís are called upon to investigate truth on
two levels, and once we have ascertained the Divine Source, that our
investigation is raised to another level.
When we accept His Message, and comprehend that the Holy Books have
been opened, we are promised an increase in our spiritual and
intellectual capacity.
"The Invincible Power will indeed strengthen, the Holy Spirit will
speak in thy mouth, the Word of God will be revealed in thy heart, the
sound of the trumpet of the Lord will gladden thee, the light of unity
will shine from thy brow, the doors of success and prosperity will be
opened upon thy face and the secrets of the Holy Books will be
unfolded. Then, at that time, thou shalt cry at the top of thy voice,
saying: "Blessed I am for this great bounty! Blessed I am for this
evident victory! Blessed I am for this power which could not be
resisted by the powers of whomsoever is upon the earth!" (Tablets of
Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 160)
Indeed, when we accept Baha'u'llah's Message, we also recognize that
we are summoned to learn about our inner being, a very personal
investigation of truth!
"Thou hast written concerning the tests that have come upon thee. To
the sincere ones, tests are as a gift from God, the Exalted, for a
heroic person hasteneth, with the utmost joy and gladness, to the
tests of a violent battlefield, but the coward is afraid and trembles
and utters moaning and lamentation. Likewise, an expert student
prepareth and memorizeth his lessons and exercises with the utmost
effort, and in the day of examination he appeareth with infinite joy
before the master. Likewise, the pure gold shineth radiantly in the
fire of test. Consequently, it is made clear that for holy souls,
trials are as the gift of God, the Exalted; but for weak souls they
are an unexpected calamity. This test is just as thou hast written: it
removeth the rust of egotism from the mirror of the heart until the
Sun of Truth may shine therein. For, no veil is greater than egotism
and no matter how thin that covering may be, yet it will finally veil
man entirely and prevent him from receiving a portion from the eternal
bounty. (Bahá'í World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 371)
Fortunately, we also recognize that we are protected from harm when we
engage in our investigations, which are designed to only make us
stronger members of the Army of Light.
"O Thou Whose tests are a healing medicine to such as are nigh unto
Thee, Whose sword is the ardent desire of all them that love Thee,
Whose dart is the dearest wish of those hearts that yearn after Thee,
Whose decree is the sole hope of them that have recognized Thy truth!
" (Bahá'í Prayers, p. 190)
Tim
On 8/7/05, Dick Detweiler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yet we are told truth is relative...
>
> >From: "Dean Betts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies"
> >To: "Baha'i Studies"
> >Subject: Re: Peter Abelard vs St. Bernard
> >Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 03:39:15 -0400
> >
> > >>"ALL Bahais, no matter what side of the argument they are on, will say
> >they
> > >>believe in "the independent investigation of truth" but then the
> >difference
> > >>will be what they mean by the phrase."
> >
> > >That much is true. But there are some Baha'is who take the position that
> >the
> > >independent search for truth ends once you become a Baha'i.
> >
> >The independent search for truth should end once you find the truth.
> >If it doesn't end there, then you haven't found the truth.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> >("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> >intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
> >entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
> >privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
> >message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
> >dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly
> >prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately
> >notify JCCC by
Re: Peter Abelard vs St. Bernard
Yet we are told truth is relative...
From: "Dean Betts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies"
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Subject: Re: Peter Abelard vs St. Bernard
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 03:39:15 -0400
>>"ALL Bahais, no matter what side of the argument they are on, will say
they
>>believe in "the independent investigation of truth" but then the
difference
>>will be what they mean by the phrase."
>That much is true. But there are some Baha'is who take the position that
the
>independent search for truth ends once you become a Baha'i.
The independent search for truth should end once you find the truth.
If it doesn't end there, then you haven't found the truth.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately
notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this
e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent
by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and
for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by
federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please
immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message
and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe:
http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
_
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Peter Abelard vs. St. Bernard
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Alcorn
Sent: 07 August 2005 12:19
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: Re: Peter Abelard vs St. Bernard
This is a beautiful concept - surely truth is relative and not absolute.
According not only to our individual capacities and potential but also to
'progressive revelation'. thank you Khazeh for your wonderful references.
Michael
Thank you Michael
Maybe you would like this essay too
http://user.super.net.uk/~whitsco/dogma2.htm
Discovery begins with discontent, with being fed up with the way things are,
with being fed up with the way I am. When I am discontented, I am also
restless; I want to leave the safety and comfort of home and go out, beyond,
into the unknown. I am dissatisfied with the present. I desire more. And it
is this desire that promotes my discontent; my desire for something better,
greater, sweeter. This is a fierce impulse, a furious discontent, a sweet
desire. But the desired is always tantalisingly out of reach; it cannot be
grasped and experienced. This does not make it any the less real; on the
contrary: "The Desired is real just because it is never an experience''
(Lewis(2))
But what is this desire? It cannot be stated, just because it cannot be
reached. I have a thirst; yet I have not yet tasted water. I have hunger;
yet I have not yet tasted food. I have a desire to reach something beyond
the mundane present; yet until I reach it, I will not know it for what it
is. And at this point we have arrived: the religious quest is begun.
Discovery begins with discontent. But discontent alone is not going to bring
about discovery; left to its own devices, discontent results in merely an
empty tired cynicism; a weary resignation in the face of the inevitable that
has learned to live with discontent and do nothing. To cynicism, discontent
is no more than a nagging pain, which must be ignored even if it isn't going
to go away. Therefore cynicism is a deadly enemy of discovery; it kills that
desire born of discontent; it kills hope. And it is this desire, this hope,
"which makes human life vital'' (Moltmann(3)) .
The God of metaphysics is no more than an abstraction, an idea, a God of the
philosophers. And even amongst Christians this God appears: "There is but
one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a
most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable,
immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most
free, most absolute" (Westminster Confession of Faith). Here, despite the
affirmation that God is incomprehensible, we have God comprehended, pinned
down, limited to a sequence of metaphysical attributes.
Here is the religious evasion of the reality of God, the constriction and
contraction of an "idea of God" that is putty in man's hands. Here is the
God of the Greeks, the God of the Scholastics, the God of the Deists, the
God of the Idealists, the God of the Philosophers. The Dead God for, while
man may create such a God, he cannot give it life. It remains a colourless
abstraction, aloof from the world of everyday things.
This is the God of the intellect, God the Brain, the God of A Thousand
Words, each suitably esoteric and aptly representative of metaphysical
jargon. How glibly come the words! But do they mean anything? Or are they
just empty phrases? Words, drifting in the void, lacking all conceptual
reality? And with these fine Megaliths of meaningless jargon, are we any
better off? Or only more misunderstood?
So concluding a survey of metaphysical systems, I put the following limits
on luggage. We must recognise the necessity of reason in religious
discovery, but also be aware of its limitations: "we are right to have a
proper respect for the intellect, but we need to remember that it goes
astray the moment it ceases to think in terms of men, women and children"
(14). In other words, if we overlook human realities, then, as Jaspers
reminds us, "what was once life becomes a pile of dead husks of concepts"
(15).
A second piece of luggage which impedes discovery is inwardness: the appeal
to inner experience. It is a mystical retreat from reality; it is, par
excellence, the 'religious'. Words such as 'piety' convey
Re: Peter Abelard vs St. Bernard
This is a beautiful concept - surely truth is relative and not absolute.
According not only to our individual capacities and potential but also to
'progressive revelation'. thank you Khazeh for your wonderful references.
- Original Message -
From: "Dean Betts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: Peter Abelard vs St. Bernard
"ALL Bahais, no matter what side of the argument they are on, will say
they
believe in "the independent investigation of truth" but then the
difference
will be what they mean by the phrase."
That much is true. But there are some Baha'is who take the position that
the
independent search for truth ends once you become a Baha'i.
The independent search for truth should end once you find the truth.
If it doesn't end there, then you haven't found the truth.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Peter Abelard vs. St. Bernard [with reference to Brother Dean]
Brother Gilberto wrote: St. Bernard of Clairvaux , the most famous mystic and monk of his day, was scandalized by such an approach to the sacred. He condemned Abelard as "scrutinizer of majesty and fabricator of heresies," who "deems himself able by human reason to comprehend God altogether." St. Bernard saw no value in what we might call 'the independent investigation of truth' Gilberto: I was struck by the "independent investigation of truth" because of you are suggesting that this tension in Christianity is echoed in the Bahai faith, it seems to me that since IIT is a Bahai principle mentioned in the writings, ALL Bahais, no matter what side of the argument they are on, will say they believe in "the independent investigation of truth" but then the difference will be what they mean by the phrase. Peace Gilberto Susan replied: Dear Gilberto, That much is true. But there are some Baha'is who take the position that the independent search for truth ends once you become a Baha'i. warmest, Susan and then Dean wrote: The independent search for truth should end once you find the truth. If it doesn't end there, then you haven't found the truth. This servant would add something. Please accept it all in a spirit of friendship not argument. In all the Dispensations of God, in a sense, the truth is given and one may say there is no need for further "truth". In the Mosaic Dispensation [Jewish Dispensation] God says do not add Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. So Do not add...and some people literally believe they should not add. In fact, strange to relate, some would even say that the Qur'an proclaims that the Torah was TAMAAM [Complete, Entire] 6:154 Yusuf Ali: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, AND EXPLAINING ALL THINGS IN DETAIL, - and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. Rodwell: Then gave we the Book to Moses - complete for him who should do right, and A DECISION FOR ALL MATTERS, and a guidance, and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. Sale: We gave also unto Moses the book [of the Law]; a perfect rule unto him who should do right, AND A DETERMINATION CONCERNING ALL THINGS NEEDFUL, and a direction and mercy; that [the children of Israel] might believe the meeting of their Lord. **Transliterated Arabic: ** Thumma atayna moosa alkitaba TAMAAMAN AAala allathee ahsana WATAFSEELAN LIKULLI SHAY-IN wahudan warahmatan laAAallahum biliqa-i rabbihim yu/minoona ** So the believers in the "no further truth" camp would say: Look in Deuteronomy It says DO NOT ADD and the Text of your Holy Book says TAMAAMAN ..and WATAFSEELAN LIKULLI SHAY-IN everything is there... In the Christian Dispensation ditto: ** Rev 22:18 For I testify ... If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: *** And no other Gospel ! ** Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that which we have preached unto you, Let Him Be Accursed.** And he repeats it: Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. And in the Holy Dispensation of Islam, In some verses which have of course been emphasized in myriad ways: 5:3 in a long verse but centrally: Yusuf Ali This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, Arberry Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My blessing upon you, In transliterating from the Original: *** alyawma akmaltu lakum deenakum WAATMAMTU AAalaykum niAAmatee** If you are careful you will see the same noun/adjective/verb of TAMAAM here too but as a verb WAATMAMTU Whereas in reference to Moses it said: TAMAAMAN. So in the above, if you all accept that I write with a pure motive, and by God, not wishing for argumentation, you will see in all the above that :Yes no further truth is needed as per the literal reading of each Dispensation... But if you then look deeper you will find that in each Day [YAWM] as the Qur'anic verse calls it, in each Day there are indications that more will be needed. ** Isaiah 28:10 For PRECEPT MUST BE UPON PRECEPT, PRECEPT UPON PRECEPT; LINE UPON LINE, LINE UPON LINE; HERE A LITTLE, AND THERE A LITTLE:*** Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little AND in the New Testament: Joh 16:12 (CEV) I have much more to say to you, but right now it would be more than you could understand. (HNV) "I have yet many things to tell you, but you can't bear them now. (KJVA) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot be
Re: Peter Abelard vs St. Bernard
>>"ALL Bahais, no matter what side of the argument they are on, will say
they
>>believe in "the independent investigation of truth" but then the
difference
>>will be what they mean by the phrase."
>That much is true. But there are some Baha'is who take the position that
the
>independent search for truth ends once you become a Baha'i.
The independent search for truth should end once you find the truth.
If it doesn't end there, then you haven't found the truth.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
