Re: Heads up: USDA Organic Rules to Impact BD Practices
Dears, The rules for spraying compost tea w/molasses were written out of fear and ignorance, unfortunately. It's that one size fits all mentality that so often infects bureaucracies. There's a lot of crops that don't have 120 days from planting to harvest. I'm told that the commonest vector for transmission of trichinosis (sometimes found in pork) is bird droppings on lettuce or some such. If the politics were a little different maybe we would see compost tea mandated to protect us from such a thing. Personally I don't want to be regulated by the government. What I've noticed over the years is the more laws we have the more lawless our society has become and that where governments work best is where people act responsibly because of personal motivation rather then because they are made to do so. Yes, the real issues are clean tea makers and teas with a good mix of healthy bacteria and fungi. There is a fear of pathogenic coliforms akin to the fear of poisonous spiders. Most are benign or evens beneficial. There are just a few dangerous ones, and if you keep your eyes peeled you don 't run afoul of them any more than you would run afoul of dangerous coliforms. Best, Hugh Lovel If the rules say that you can't spray CT on food crops for 120 days before harvest, then they are talking about foliar feed. They are worried about I. coli which forms in anaerobic situations in CT where there is too much food for the organisms (molasses) and too little aeration getting on food that is going to market. The participants in the CT list/serve are talking about their CT makers in terms of their ability to clean them well and quickly and in terms of getting not only bacteria, but a balance of bacteria and fungi. There's so much to understand. I would say that the NOP standards apply only to Certified organic growers. But certified organic is supposed to be the highest standard in the U.S. If they are so worded that they exclude the use of CT, then really they aren't useful for organic farmers because 24-hour CT as conceptualized by Elaine at Soil Food Web, Inc. makes organic much better. This is why Elaine's lectures around the world are so important. A lot of organic growers don't really know anything about what is actually going on in making compost--only that raw manure is prohibited. They have the rule without the understanding, and could easily have anaerobic conditions in their compost pile to start with. Elaine is writing a guide for understanding compost making. That ought to help matters. I surely do hope she can reach mainstream organic growers. If people do listen and understand instead of just following rules, then there shouldn't be any trouble. There also must be a difference between a cow pie you pick up in a BD pasture and the stuff that comes out of the kind of confined conditions that exist in feed lots. This does not help matters. I found Will Brinton's analysis of 500 to have limitations. His analysis of 500 doesn't tell me why it enlivens the soil. It only says that 500 is not raw manure. But how do BD compost and 500 work together? Has anyone ever been able to analyze the process or is it too esoteric? Allan Balliett wrote: If you're monitoring SANET or Elaine Inghams compost tea discussion group, you already know that the USDA organic rules group has been advised to restrict the use of compost teas on food crops. This applies particularly to teas that use added sugars (mollasses, for example). Already, however, it appears that the rule may be generalized to 'ban' all cow manure based teas. The chances of this impacting BD 500 and BC is very high. Of course, this only applies to people who are interested in receiving USDA organic certification, but the possibility of truly negative publicity is very high. I don't have all the details on these events, and what I've said above may be misleading. What I have to say most importantly is that we need to gather all the information we can on this move by the USDA organic group and discuss it among ourselves so we are prepared to speak out on it and more importantly, to talk intelligently to our customers about the difference between biodynamically grown foods and USDA organics. -Allan Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: Heads up: USDA Organic Rules to Impact BD Practices
If the rules say that you can't spray CT on food crops for 120 days before harvest, then they are talking about foliar feed. They are worried about I. coli which forms in anaerobic situations in CT where there is too much food for the organisms (molasses) and too little aeration getting on food that is going to market. The participants in the CT list/serve are talking about their CT makers in terms of their ability to clean them well and quickly and in terms of getting not only bacteria, but a balance of bacteria and fungi. There's so much to understand. I would say that the NOP standards apply only to Certified organic growers. But certified organic is supposed to be the highest standard in the U.S. If they are so worded that they exclude the use of CT, then really they aren't useful for organic farmers because 24-hour CT as conceptualized by Elaine at Soil Food Web, Inc. makes organic much better. This is why Elaine's lectures around the world are so important. A lot of organic growers don't really know anything about what is actually going on in making compost--only that raw manure is prohibited. They have the rule without the understanding, and could easily have anaerobic conditions in their compost pile to start with. Elaine is writing a guide for understanding compost making. That ought to help matters. I surely do hope she can reach mainstream organic growers. If people do listen and understand instead of just following rules, then there shouldn't be any trouble. There also must be a difference between a cow pie you pick up in a BD pasture and the stuff that comes out of the kind of confined conditions that exist in feed lots. This does not help matters. I found Will Brinton's analysis of 500 to have limitations. His analysis of 500 doesn't tell me why it enlivens the soil. It only says that 500 is not raw manure. But how do BD compost and 500 work together? Has anyone ever been able to analyze the process or is it too esoteric? Allan Balliett wrote: If you're monitoring SANET or Elaine Inghams compost tea discussion group, you already know that the USDA organic rules group has been advised to restrict the use of compost teas on food crops. This applies particularly to teas that use added sugars (mollasses, for example). Already, however, it appears that the rule may be generalized to 'ban' all cow manure based teas. The chances of this impacting BD 500 and BC is very high. Of course, this only applies to people who are interested in receiving USDA organic certification, but the possibility of truly negative publicity is very high. I don't have all the details on these events, and what I've said above may be misleading. What I have to say most importantly is that we need to gather all the information we can on this move by the USDA organic group and discuss it among ourselves so we are prepared to speak out on it and more importantly, to talk intelligently to our customers about the difference between biodynamically grown foods and USDA organics. -Allan
Re: Heads up: USDA Organic Rules to Impact BD Practices
Bio Dynamic farmers and gardeners have been using cow horn manure as a spray for over seventy years. How many have been adversly affected apart from getting a sore back from carrying a bucket in one hand and flicking horn manure out with the other. I've had the wind blow it back in my face numerous times over the last 40 years and I keep in pretty good health. best wishes, Peter. - Original Message - From: Gil Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Heads up: USDA Organic Rules to Impact BD Practices Allan, Without putting to fine a point on it. Personally, I would prefer something that came out of the back end of a cow, mixed with my food than any thing from Monsanto. Gil Allan Balliett wrote: If you're monitoring SANET or Elaine Inghams compost tea discussion group, you already know that the USDA organic rules group has been advised to restrict the use of compost teas on food crops. This applies particularly to teas that use added sugars (mollasses, for example). Already, however, it appears that the rule may be generalized to 'ban' all cow manure based teas. The chances of this impacting BD 500 and BC is very high. Of course, this only applies to people who are interested in receiving USDA organic certification, but the possibility of truly negative publicity is very high. I don't have all the details on these events, and what I've said above may be misleading. What I have to say most importantly is that we need to gather all the information we can on this move by the USDA organic group and discuss it among ourselves so we are prepared to speak out on it and more importantly, to talk intelligently to our customers about the difference between biodynamically grown foods and USDA organics. -Allan
Re: Heads up: USDA Organic Rules to Impact BD Practices
Allan wrote Of course, this only applies to people who are interested in receiving USDA organic certification, Allan are you sure about this?? No, I'm not certain about it in the long run but the current dialogue was triggered by the NOSB, or by recommendations to them AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND.
Re: Heads up: USDA Organic Rules to Impact BD Practices
Hi! Allan, I grew up in a dairy farming family and it never occurred to us that cow shit was dirty. I mean to say, there is nothing better to stand in, when bring the cows in, bare foot, on a frosty morning. Gil excellent! ;-)
Heads up: USDA Organic Rules to Impact BD Practices
If you're monitoring SANET or Elaine Inghams compost tea discussion group, you already know that the USDA organic rules group has been advised to restrict the use of compost teas on food crops. This applies particularly to teas that use added sugars (mollasses, for example). Already, however, it appears that the rule may be generalized to 'ban' all cow manure based teas. The chances of this impacting BD 500 and BC is very high. Of course, this only applies to people who are interested in receiving USDA organic certification, but the possibility of truly negative publicity is very high. I don't have all the details on these events, and what I've said above may be misleading. What I have to say most importantly is that we need to gather all the information we can on this move by the USDA organic group and discuss it among ourselves so we are prepared to speak out on it and more importantly, to talk intelligently to our customers about the difference between biodynamically grown foods and USDA organics. -Allan
Re: Heads up: USDA Organic Rules to Impact BD Practices
Allan, Without putting to fine a point on it. Personally, I would prefer something that came out of the back end of a cow, mixed with my food than any thing from Monsanto. Gil Allan Balliett wrote: If you're monitoring SANET or Elaine Inghams compost tea discussion group, you already know that the USDA organic rules group has been advised to restrict the use of compost teas on food crops. This applies particularly to teas that use added sugars (mollasses, for example). Already, however, it appears that the rule may be generalized to 'ban' all cow manure based teas. The chances of this impacting BD 500 and BC is very high. Of course, this only applies to people who are interested in receiving USDA organic certification, but the possibility of truly negative publicity is very high. I don't have all the details on these events, and what I've said above may be misleading. What I have to say most importantly is that we need to gather all the information we can on this move by the USDA organic group and discuss it among ourselves so we are prepared to speak out on it and more importantly, to talk intelligently to our customers about the difference between biodynamically grown foods and USDA organics. -Allan
Re: Heads up: USDA Organic Rules to Impact BD Practices
Yes, Gil, I know what you mean. I'm crossing the line with this comment, but I find it really hard to think of the pies of healthy cows as shit. It's seems more appropriate to think of them as piles of grass that have through a pre-composting process. Not the same stuff at all that my dog leaves in the foot paths, is it? -Allan Allan, Without putting to fine a point on it. Personally, I would prefer something that came out of the back end of a cow, mixed with my food than any thing from Monsanto. Gil
Re: Heads up: USDA Organic Rules to Impact BD Practices
Hi! Allan, I grew up in a dairy farming family and it never occurred to us that cow shit was dirty. I mean to say, there is nothing better to stand in, when bring the cows in, bare foot, on a frosty morning. Gil Allan Balliett wrote: Yes, Gil, I know what you mean. I'm crossing the line with this comment, but I find it really hard to think of the pies of healthy cows as shit. It's seems more appropriate to think of them as piles of grass that have through a pre-composting process. Not the same stuff at all that my dog leaves in the foot paths, is it? -Allan Allan,
Re: Heads up: USDA Organic Rules to Impact BD Practices
Allan wrote Of course, this only applies to people who are interested in receiving USDA organic certification, Allan are you sure about this?? . I have asked this question several times and got no answer from others (mainly on the ct list) IF this applies ONLY to organic production it is easy to argue against as it has been introduced on a food safety basis. IF its a food safety issue it ought to apply across the board to all food crops whether or not they are organic and even IF that is the case it should be easy to overturn this decision. How can compost tea be more of a health hazard than spraying endosulfan (or a myriad other nasty poisons) onto tomatoes three days before consumption ??? Lloyd Charles Who remains a skeptic and thinks this whole deal is a move to nuke the use of Compost Tea before it starts to impact chemical sales which it will definitely do if left alone!
Re: Heads up: USDA Organic Rules to Impact BD Practices
Title: Re: Heads up: USDA Organic Rules to Impact BD Practices Without putting to fine a point on it. Personally, I would prefer something that came out of the back end of a cow, mixed with my food than any thing from Monsanto. Gil Don't worry about that being sharp Its as blunt as a telephone pole! Right ON! L*L Markess
