Re: ER Tools

[DJ Spark]

 because that's how cake works.
 the table is in plural form
 the model name is in singular form

 (not much creative today :)
 spark

On 1/28/07, Pje <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There is a reason to use plural names in your tables? Because, in a logical
> model, entity names must be in singular. Why, when transforming my logical
> model to the physical, would I transform each entity name to a plural?
>


-- 
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[livesets] http://djspark.com.br/mp3

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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[RichardAtHome]

Grrr... still getting used to the new google groups gui. Didn't see 
the 2nd page of replies...

On Jan 29, 3:09 pm, "RichardAtHome" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "If there is a trick, perhaps you could share it with the list? "
>
> If you double click the relationship (the line connecting the tables),
> you can edit the name of the field DBDesigner uses for the foreign
> key.
>
> (took me a while to work this one out too)


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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[RichardAtHome]

"If there is a trick, perhaps you could share it with the list? "

If you double click the relationship (the line connecting the tables), 
you can edit the name of the field DBDesigner uses for the foreign 
key.

(took me a while to work this one out too)


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Re: ER Tools

[NOSLOW]

Oh, in that case, there is a good reason to adopt it if you're using 
CakePHP: It's one of the naming conventions.

http://manual.cakephp.org/appendix/conventions

On Jan 29, 6:49 am, Pje <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There is no standard that define it. If you do a search for "table name
> So, I am asking because maybe there is a good reason to use it. If so, i can 
> adopt plural
> table names too. :)


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Re: ER Tools

[Pje]

There is no standard that define it. If you do a search for "table name
plural" in google, you will see many discussions about that. So, I am asking
because maybe there is a good reason to use it. If so, i can adopt plural
table names too. :)

Some examples:
http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=5904
http://www.google.com.br/search?q=table+name+plural

On 1/28/07, NOSLOW <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Pje,
>
> A table is a collection of many records (plural); A model (singular)
> defines how each individual record is handled. At least that's how I
> think of it. Perhaps someone else can convey the thinking into words
> more precisely.
>
>
> >
>

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Re: ER Tools

[NOSLOW]

Pje,

A table is a collection of many records (plural); A model (singular) 
defines how each individual record is handled. At least that's how I 
think of it. Perhaps someone else can convey the thinking into words 
more precisely.


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Re: [professionel] Re: ER Tools

[Bernard Grosperrin]

codecowboy wrote:
>   2 They cannot export the diagrams (typically they can 
> export anything but MySQL 5!!). 

makes a lot of sense. Before 5, Mysql knew nothing about entity relations.

Bernard

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Re: [professionel] Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[Bernard Grosperrin]

John
> I've always had mixed feelings about this: in some ways using  
> triggers, stored procedures and the like seem to me like spreading  
> your application logic in too many places. I can see where they'd be  
> useful though, too.
>   
No. ALL the business logic should be where it belongs, with the data 
(Think OOP, where is the logic?)
Your application is a "view", a "client". That's it. You should not have 
any business logic there. Data entry validation, sure, as it makes for a 
better user interface (still, the database should check for this too)

> Just be sure your app knows how to deal with integrity failures.
>   
Can't. Only the DB knows about transactions, COMMIT and ROLLBACK.

> I'd imagine its a little lower on the priority list, mostly due to  
> the fact that different engines handle things so differently, but  
> Nate and PhpNut will have to give the definitive answer on this one.
>   
No. DB engines handle things differently INTERNALLY. The interface is 
the same. Right now, Cake works with PostgreSQL as well as with MySQL 
(and maybe others).
The simple fact is that a MySQL background is not the proper way to get 
a good SQL background.

Bernard


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Re: ER Tools

[codecowboy]

sqlYOG is amazing.  It is not expensive either.  It was a great use of 
fifty bucks.  I have been using it for about six months now and I love 
it.  As far as DB Design tools go, I have done alot of research and it 
seems that until workbench is stable, you will need to spend money.  
Every tool that I have tried seems to have one missing feature that 
makes it unusable.  1 They cannot reverse engineer the existing 
database.  2 They cannot export the diagrams (typically they can 
export anything but MySQL 5!!).  3. They cannot print.  4. They have a 
time limit until you need to pay money.  I don't mind spending money 
on sophisticated software but the problem is that Diagramming tools 
are expensive for a small budget.

On Jan 4, 2:23 pm, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have used DBDesigner to design the database tables.
> But for managing mysql databases, theres nothing like sqlYOG. it is not
> free. For a while, I was working with the trial edition, and it rocks.
>
> cheers


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Re: ER Tools

[Pje]

Hi,

There is a reason to use plural names in your tables? Because, in a logical
model, entity names must be in singular. Why, when transforming my logical
model to the physical, would I transform each entity name to a plural?

On 1/5/07, Larry E. Masters aka PhpNut <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 1/4/07, Dr. Tarique Sani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Larry had shown something similar he had done to me - perhaps he can
> > share it with the list.
> >
>
> The best examples that I have to show is the one I designed for the Bakery
> and a simple blog. With the Bakery I noted all associations in both
> directions.
> http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/bakery.png
> http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/bakery.pdf
>
> In this design I used simple notation.
> http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/blog.png
> http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/blog.pdf
>
> I also wrote a script that will parse the DbDesigner xml file and create a
> list of associations . Right now it only works when associations are noted
> as the Bakery. If I find the time I may convert it to use the simple
> notation used in the blog diagrams above.
>
> http://bin.cakephp.org/saved/131
>
> --
> /**
> * @author Larry E. Masters
> * @var string $userName
> * @param string $realName
> * @returns string aka PhpNut
> * @access  public
> */
> >
>

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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[RichardAtHome]

Yup, works fine with Windows :-)

(I pretty much use it every day)


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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[keymaster]

Hi NOSLOW,

Just wanted to report back and thank you. I followed your advice and
DBDesigner is no longer causing problems.

FYI, the problem was I had been using the plain relationships (the
lower set of icons). Using the "non-identifying" ones (the upper set),
as you suggested, made the problems disappear.

Thanks NOSLOW.

(And thanks to the comments of others regarding DB-based foreign key
constraints for db's accessed by multiple applications).


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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[Matt Adams]

keymaster wrote:

> A final question: how important are REAL foreign keys in the 
> database, if you are using cake associations. Are they superfluous?
> Are they still needed?

On Jan 10, 2007, at 10:29 AM, Matt Adams wrote:

> They are extremely important if your database offers read-write
> access to more than one application from the same set of tables.  A
> large majority of those who have swallowed the Rails-like pill have
> never worked with large-scale databases and do not understand the 
> necessity of enforcing integrity with foreign keys, triggers and
> stored procedures.

John David Anderson (_psychic_) wrote:

> I've always had mixed feelings about this: in some ways using 
> triggers, stored procedures and the like seem to me like spreading 
> your application logic in too many places. I can see where they'd be
> useful though, too.

I understand the resistance to placing application logic in more than
once place but in situations where two or three or more applications are
accessing the same database it makes much more sense to enforce all of
this in ONE place (i.e., the database) then to try and duplicate the 
same logic correctly through several different applications.

Do you really want to trust the developers from several different teams 
to all interpret the schema correctly and enforce the correct data 
integrity rules for a shared database?  Of course not, people make 
mistakes.  That's why you have your DBA nail down how the relationships 
are going to be set up & used and enforce it in once place.  That way 
the bug that some well-meaning developer in customer applications 
introduced doesn't mangle the in-house service data (assuming the two 
are connected in some way).

Enforcing data integrity in the database isn't about application logic, 
per se although the two domains may have some degree of overlap - it's 
about making sure that two different applications with separate uses of 
the same data don't muck things up badly for the other team.

> Just be sure your app knows how to deal with integrity failures.

Mine might, but I don't want to count on the ugly piece of crap the 
bloke down the hall is writing.  I write this full-knowing that I have 
been that guy down the hall from time to time.


Cheers,

Matt
-- 
BASIC: A programming language.  Related to certain social diseases
in that those who have it will not admit it in polite company.

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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[Gary Choma]

I did not encounter that, so see if it's still a problem after double
checking everything. My model diagram looks just like the examples Larry
posted. Only one PK ("id" field) in each table.


On 1/10/07, keymaster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks NOSLOW, I thought I was doing most of the things you mentioned.
> Will double check again, since you had success.
>
> What did you think about the foreign keys being added to a growing
> composite primary key. Didn't that bother you?
>
>
> >
>


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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[keymaster]

Thanks NOSLOW, I thought I was doing most of the things you mentioned.
Will double check again, since you had success.

What did you think about the foreign keys being added to a growing
composite primary key. Didn't that bother you?


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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[NOSLOW]

keymaster, I think that your problems may be related to how you have it
configured. I had the same problem with my primary key ("id" field)
getting deleted when I realized that I picked my tables in the wrong
order when setting up the relationship. Now that I got everything
working correctly, it's working out great for me.

Here are a few things to check:

1. Under Options-->Model Options-->Editing Options, make sure that "Add
Source Table Name to Foreign Key Column's Names" option is checked. (I
also have my Default Table Type set to "InnoDB", which enables me to
also check the "Automatically create Index on FK Fields in Destination
Table if ..." option).

2. From the toolbox, only use the "New 1:n Non-Identifying Relation"
and the "New 1:1 Non-Identifying Relation" buttons (the icons that show
a dotted line for the relations connection on the toolbar button).

3. The order you select the tables when defining the relations matters.
 CakePHP has 4 relation types: hasOne, hasMany, belongsTo and
hasAndBelongsToMany.  Only one of the four works counter-intuitively in
DBDesigner4, and that's when defining the "hasOne" relations.
Typically, you follow the order in how it reads: "ModelOne hasMany
ModelTwo" -- first click table "model_ones", then "model_twos". But for
"hasOne", it's backwards: "ModelOne hasOne ModelTwo" -- first click
table "model_twos", then table "model_ones".

4. After defining a relation, immediately edit it (double click on it)
and rename it to read the CakePHP way ("ModelOne hasMany ModelTwo",
note: you're using the model name convention, NOT the table name
convention here..."model_ones hasMany model_twos" would be wrong).
Then, (this is the only pain), you have to rename the Dest. Name
Foreign Key to follow the CakePHP convention of tablename-singular
(DBDesigner creates it as "model_twos_id", you want it to be
"model_two_id").

If you follow this configuration and conventions (thanks, Larry, for
showing us the way! study his model diagrams closely if you haven't
already), it should work out great for you. You'll see that it's a
breeze because DBDesigner will manage your foreign keys for you (you
just have to correct the naming of them to be singular). Thus, deleting
a relation will do the right thing and remove the correct FK, and not
the needed "id" field.

Good luck!


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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[NOSLOW]

RichardAtHome,

Does this work on Windows? The last I checked (within the past few
months) it did not (and  a google search confirmed that it was a well
known issue).


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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[John David Anderson (_psychic_)]

On Jan 10, 2007, at 10:29 AM, Matt Adams wrote:

>
> keymaster wrote:
>
>> A final question: how important are REAL foreign keys in the  
>> database,
>> if you are using cake associations. Are they superfluous? Are they
>> still needed?
>
> It depends on what you're doing.
>
> They are extremely important if your database offers read-write access
> to more than one application from the same set of tables.  A large
> majority of those who have swallowed the Rails-like pill have never
> worked with large-scale databases and do not understand the  
> necessity of
> enforcing integrity with foreign keys, triggers and stored procedures.

I've always had mixed feelings about this: in some ways using  
triggers, stored procedures and the like seem to me like spreading  
your application logic in too many places. I can see where they'd be  
useful though, too.

: /

> On the other hand, if your database isn't mission critical or if you
> only have one application accessing your core tables then you can do
> away with these sorts of things BUT you need to be certain that your
> application is enforcing any rules as need be.  A proper database will
> usually do these things much better than you will and I would hazard a
> guess that they contain fewer bugs then your application logic (or
> rather, that their bugs are better documented).

Just be sure your app knows how to deal with integrity failures.

> Some systems (as in Siebel and friends) do not use foreign keys but
> provide a set of integration tables that are used by external  
> systems to
> populate and manipulate the data in the core set of tables; these  
> tables
> are often handled by batch processes of some kind.
>
> I don't believe that Cake reads and understands foreign keys at this
> time... I would hope that this would be the case at some point but it
> may not happen for a while (or ever, depending on how the Cake
> developers feel about this).

I'd imagine its a little lower on the priority list, mostly due to  
the fact that different engines handle things so differently, but  
Nate and PhpNut will have to give the definitive answer on this one.

-- John

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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[Matt Adams]

keymaster wrote:

> A final question: how important are REAL foreign keys in the database,
> if you are using cake associations. Are they superfluous? Are they
> still needed?

It depends on what you're doing.

They are extremely important if your database offers read-write access 
to more than one application from the same set of tables.  A large 
majority of those who have swallowed the Rails-like pill have never 
worked with large-scale databases and do not understand the necessity of 
enforcing integrity with foreign keys, triggers and stored procedures.

On the other hand, if your database isn't mission critical or if you 
only have one application accessing your core tables then you can do 
away with these sorts of things BUT you need to be certain that your 
application is enforcing any rules as need be.  A proper database will 
usually do these things much better than you will and I would hazard a 
guess that they contain fewer bugs then your application logic (or 
rather, that their bugs are better documented).

Some systems (as in Siebel and friends) do not use foreign keys but 
provide a set of integration tables that are used by external systems to 
populate and manipulate the data in the core set of tables; these tables 
are often handled by batch processes of some kind.

I don't believe that Cake reads and understands foreign keys at this 
time... I would hope that this would be the case at some point but it 
may not happen for a while (or ever, depending on how the Cake 
developers feel about this).


Cheers,

Matt
-- 
BASIC: A programming language.  Related to certain social diseases
in that those who have it will not admit it in polite company.

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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[RichardAtHome]

Another (minor) problem with the otherwise excellent DBDesigner is that
it uses MySQL old passwords. This means that once you create your MySQL
User, you then need to run the following sql before you can connect
with DBDesigner:

SET PASSWORD FOR 'some_user'@'some_host' = OLD_PASSWORD('newpwd');

Also worth noting: DBDesigner is no longer actively developed. It's
functionality is being incorporated into the MySQL GUI tools. Check out
the MySQL Workbench tool (
http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/gui-tools/5.0.html )


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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[keymaster]

DBDesigner is  great in some ways, but a real pain in others.

For example, if you create a A hasMany B relationship, it creates a
foreign key for you in B. That's fine. But it makes that foreign key
part of a composite primary key for table B. Don't understand the
reason for that.

The problem is if you have a B hasMany C relationship, it creates two
foreign keys in table C, one for each part of the composite key in B.

Another issue, if you ever have to delete a relationship because you
accidentally input it in reverse and want to change it's direction, you
could end up deleting the primary key in one of the tables. And the
effect ripples to all other tables which may have foreign keys to that
table.

So, one small mistake can cause you lots of cleanup work.

I wasn't happy about that aspect. It's enough to prevent me from using
it with cake.

A final question: how important are REAL foreign keys in the database,
if you are using cake associations. Are they superfluous? Are they
still needed?


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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[Langdon Stevenson]

Argh!  I knew it had to be something simple ...

I had forgotten about editing FK field names after much trouble with it 
renaming 'id' fields earlier.


Thanks Larry, very much appreciated.

Regards,
Langdon



Larry E. Masters aka PhpNut wrote:

Langdon,

Sure no problem...

For example users table comments table.

Create a 1:n association from users table to comments table. This will 
create a users_id in the comments table.
Double click the link between them. The edit screen should allow you to 
change users_id to user_id.


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Re: OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[Larry E. Masters aka PhpNut]

Langdon,

Sure no problem...

For example users table comments table.

Create a 1:n association from users table to comments table. This will
create a users_id in the comments table.
Double click the link between them. The edit screen should allow you to
change users_id to user_id.

On 1/7/07, Langdon Stevenson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Hi Larry

This question is way off topic for the list so feel free to
ignore/delete/reply off list.  I would have asked it on the FabForce
support forum, but is has been closed down due to attacks :-(  I have
also scoured Google without luck on this topic.

I have hit a snag with DBDesigner and foreign keys and Cake.  As my
tables are named in the Cake convention:

   model_names

I am getting foreign keys called:

   model_names_id

rather than

   model_name_id

Having looked at your output for the Bakery here:

http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/roundtable.png

it looks like you have managed to get around this issue.  I have scoured
settings in DBDesigner, but can't figure it out.

If there is a trick, perhaps you could share it with the list?

Regards,
Langdon



Langdon Stevenson wrote:
>
> Thanks for that post Larry, I am checking out DbDesigner.  Should be a
> good addition to my tool set.
>
> Regards,
> Langdon
>
>
>> I also wrote a script that will parse the DbDesigner xml file and
>> create a list of associations . Right now it only works when
>> associations are noted as the Bakery. If I find the time I may convert
>> it to use the simple notation used in the blog diagrams above.

>




--
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* @author Larry E. Masters
* @var string $userName
* @param string $realName
* @returns string aka PhpNut
* @access  public
*/

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OT - Q for PHPNut on DBDesigner 4 - Was: ER Tools

[Langdon Stevenson]

Hi Larry

This question is way off topic for the list so feel free to 
ignore/delete/reply off list.  I would have asked it on the FabForce 
support forum, but is has been closed down due to attacks :-(  I have 
also scoured Google without luck on this topic.


I have hit a snag with DBDesigner and foreign keys and Cake.  As my 
tables are named in the Cake convention:


  model_names

I am getting foreign keys called:

  model_names_id

rather than

  model_name_id

Having looked at your output for the Bakery here:

http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/roundtable.png

it looks like you have managed to get around this issue.  I have scoured 
settings in DBDesigner, but can't figure it out.


If there is a trick, perhaps you could share it with the list?

Regards,
Langdon



Langdon Stevenson wrote:


Thanks for that post Larry, I am checking out DbDesigner.  Should be a 
good addition to my tool set.


Regards,
Langdon


I also wrote a script that will parse the DbDesigner xml file and 
create a list of associations . Right now it only works when 
associations are noted as the Bakery. If I find the time I may convert 
it to use the simple notation used in the blog diagrams above.


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Re: ER Tools

[CraZyLeGs]

Oh yeah!
Larry E. Masters aka PhpNut wrote:

On 1/5/07, CraZyLeGs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Where is that Forum diagram again..
>

This one?
http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/roundtable.png
http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/roundtable.pdf

--
/**
* @author Larry E. Masters
* @var string $userName
* @param string $realName
* @returns string aka PhpNut
* @access  public
*/

--=_Part_17076_3528167.1168014425597
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Google-AttachSize: 770

On 1/5/07, CraZyLeGs [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Where is that Forum diagram again..This one?http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/roundtable.png";>http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/roundtable.pnghttp://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/roundtable.pdf";>
http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/roundtable.pdf-- /*** @author Larry E. Masters* @var 
string $userName* @param string $realName* @returns string aka PhpNut* @access  public*/

--=_Part_17076_3528167.1168014425597--



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Re: ER Tools

[Langdon Stevenson]

Hi DJ

  For those tring DBDesigner, it took me a few hours to understand when 
the program creates FK in the table (as shown in Larry's images), and 
why it *deletes* that field when I delete the association :)


I had exactly the same issue.  It took me a while to find the setting 
that prepends the table name.  Once I had that, then it all worked fine. 
 had me confused for a while though!


Regards,
Langdon

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Re: ER Tools

[DJ Spark]

 For those tring DBDesigner, it took me a few hours to understand when the
program creates FK in the table (as shown in Larry's images), and why it
*deletes* that field when I delete the association :)
 It assumes the key is there only because of the association, even it was
already there.

 Not sure it it was me being silly, or the software being too picky

 When I saw the bakery diagram, a few months ago, I started to use the same
notation as Larry, and it helped *A LOT*

 Thanks
 Spark


On 1/6/07, Langdon Stevenson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Thanks for that post Larry, I am checking out DbDesigner.  Should be a
good addition to my tool set.

Regards,
Langdon


> I also wrote a script that will parse the DbDesigner xml file and create
> a list of associations . Right now it only works when associations are
> noted as the Bakery. If I find the time I may convert it to use the
> simple notation used in the blog diagrams above.

>




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Re: ER Tools

[Langdon Stevenson]

Thanks for that post Larry, I am checking out DbDesigner.  Should be a 
good addition to my tool set.


Regards,
Langdon


I also wrote a script that will parse the DbDesigner xml file and create 
a list of associations . Right now it only works when associations are 
noted as the Bakery. If I find the time I may convert it to use the 
simple notation used in the blog diagrams above.


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Re: ER Tools

[Sonic Baker]

On 1/5/07, NOSLOW <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Is this just bad DB design to not define the FK's in the tables? Will
it have negative affects on the MySQL DB performance?



Hi there,

I assume, by FK's you actually mean PK's acting as FK's (since the default
engine MyISAM doesn't support FK's). If so then if you don't define them in
the tables you may end up with duplicate rows, no indexes and all the other
problems associated with a lack of PK's.

HTH,

Sonic

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Re: ER Tools

[Larry E. Masters aka PhpNut]

On 1/5/07, CraZyLeGs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Where is that Forum diagram again..



This one?
http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/roundtable.png
http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/roundtable.pdf

--
/**
* @author Larry E. Masters
* @var string $userName
* @param string $realName
* @returns string aka PhpNut
* @access  public
*/

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Re: ER Tools

[NOSLOW]

Thanks Larry, that's excellent! I knew there had to be a better way.

After seeing this, I realize that you do formally define foreign keys
in the database. For clarification, what harm is there if you don't
actually define FK's in the database? It appears that CakePHP doesn't
actually need them to be defined in the DB, it figures it out just by
convention or any convention overrides declared in the Model
definition.

Is this just bad DB design to not define the FK's in the tables? Will
it have negative affects on the MySQL DB performance? I suppose if you
were to take the DB outside the context of the CakePHP application (or
even if you did any manual SQL statements), not having FK constraints
in the table could results in orphaned records if you were deleting
records. I guess I kinda answered that question for myself, but I'd
still like to know if CakePHP relies on FK definitions in any way
instead of just inferring them.

Thanks again! I'll now try using DBDesigner in the CakePHP fashion and
take advantage of Larry's script.  Good stuff.


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Re: ER Tools

[CraZyLeGs]

Where is that Forum diagram again..


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Re: ER Tools

[Dr. Tarique Sani]

On 1/5/07, Larry E. Masters aka PhpNut <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 1/4/07, Dr. Tarique Sani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Larry had shown something similar he had done to me - perhaps he can
> share it with the list.
>

The best examples that I have to show is the one I designed for the Bakery
and a simple blog. With the Bakery I noted all associations in both
directions.


Thanks Larry.

Tarique

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Re: ER Tools

[Larry E. Masters aka PhpNut]

On 1/4/07, Dr. Tarique Sani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Larry had shown something similar he had done to me - perhaps he can
share it with the list.



The best examples that I have to show is the one I designed for the Bakery
and a simple blog. With the Bakery I noted all associations in both
directions.
http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/bakery.png
http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/bakery.pdf

In this design I used simple notation.
http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/blog.png
http://phpnut.cakephp.org/img/blog.pdf

I also wrote a script that will parse the DbDesigner xml file and create a
list of associations . Right now it only works when associations are noted
as the Bakery. If I find the time I may convert it to use the simple
notation used in the blog diagrams above.

http://bin.cakephp.org/saved/131

--
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* @author Larry E. Masters
* @var string $userName
* @param string $realName
* @returns string aka PhpNut
* @access  public
*/

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Re: ER Tools

[Dr. Tarique Sani]

On 1/4/07, NOSLOW <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

In CakePHP, your database relationships are by convention, and are
defined in the Model, not formally in the database.


Agreed but when working in a team, specifically a distributed team, it
is great to be able to give a Diagram (and related SQL) where
relationships says something like Country hasMany State and State
belongsTo Country to someone who will then have a head start in baking
the app.

Larry had shown something similar he had done to me - perhaps he can
share it with the list.

Paper / Whiteboards are great when you are your own master - I love to
use those notepads with small grids and a supply of sharpened pencils
of various colors on personal projects.

My personal choice for managing MySQL is phpMyAdmin - I really wish
the phpMyDesigner which is to be integrated in the next version
matures well.

Cheers
Tarique

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Re: ER Tools

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Hi

I have used DBDesigner to design the database tables.
But for managing mysql databases, theres nothing like sqlYOG. it is not
free. For a while, I was working with the trial edition, and it rocks.

cheers


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Re: ER Tools

[NOSLOW]

Chris Hartjes wrote:

I use a whiteboard, dry-erase markers and paper to do my database design work.

Sounds like I'm in the minority. ;)


Chris, I hear ya! I work in the same fashion. I find it easier to
expose the design by feeling it out using basic tools. Being able to
quickly and easily make numerous changes is key for me. The problem
with the whiteboard is that you can't move things around easily!

I've been using an online diagramming tool called Gliffy
(www.gliffy.com) to quickly draw tables and link them together to show
relationships. It works well and is kinda fun to use.  Although I never
used Visio, I guess this is a similar type of product. I also did some
workflow diagrams which will really help me design the front end. I
think I'll diagram my living-room next :P

I now have a good road map to use as a design guide for implementing my
database.

Now, for actually creating the tables, I'll probably use a combination
of phpMyAdmin and plain text scripts. (I often use phpMyAdmin to
generate scripts from existing tables and then edit them in a text
editor, (EditPlus is my favorite) to create new ones).

After the database is complete, I'll use DBDesigner4 to generate a real
database diagram using it's reverse engineering feature. I had tried
using MySQL Workbench for this in the past, but I couldn't get it to
work. When searching the net for help on resolving this, I saw where
someone recommended DBDesigner4 instead
(http://www.fabforce.net/dbdesigner4/) and it looks excellent. The GUI
is really nice as are the diagrams it creates. I was going to use this,
but found I didn't need all it's features during the initial design
process. What I needed was something more simple and agile (enter
Gliffy).

In CakePHP, your database relationships are by convention, and are
defined in the Model, not formally in the database. Therefor, you don't
actually define foreign keys in the database (I hope I'm right on this,
because that's the way I've been doing it so far). So when I use
DBDesigner4 to reverse engineer my database, it won't draw any
relationship lines. That's why I used a simple generic diagramming tool
to indicate my table relationships...it's more of a high-level
"roadmap" of my DB.

Some other MySQL tools I have installed and tried are SQLyog and
Navicat MySQL. Both seem to work pretty well.

I'm new to CakePHP and have only done small projects in php. I'm in the
early stages of my first serious project on a LAMP/WAMP stack and have
chosen CakePHP to help me do things right. These kinds of threads
really help me out in fine-tuning my development environment tools,
methods and practices. There's always room for improvement.


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Re: ER Tools

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

If I have a lot of db design work to to I'll use my design tool -
EnterpriseArchitect ( http://www.sparxsystems.com ) - since it works
for PHP classes as well.

Freeware wise - Oracle's TOAD tool is available free for MySQL - and it
looks pretty good.

http://www.quest.com/toad_for_mysql/


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Re: ER Tools

[Chris Hartjes]

On 1/4/07, Dr. Tarique Sani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hello All,

This is a bit off topic - so apologies for that.

Which ER / DB design tools do you folks use or rather do you use an ER
tool at all?




I use a whiteboard, dry-erase markers and paper to do my database design work.

Sounds like I'm in the minority. ;)


--
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Re: ER Tools

[Dr. Tarique Sani]

On 1/4/07, sawa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I use Azzurri plugin for Eclipse. It's good enough for me. The only


Had not tried it before - but it does not let you define a 1:n relationship

Thanks

Tarique

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Re: ER Tools

[Dr. Tarique Sani]

On 1/4/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

You might want to give the modeling tool umbrello a try, it can do ER


Tried Umbrello - it can just about do ER and very clumsy at that.

Thanks

Tarique
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Re: ER Tools

[sawa]

I use Azzurri plugin for Eclipse. It's good enough for me. The only
thing that I miss is generating statements to populate tables with some
default values. That feature exists in DBDesigner. Otherwise, I'm quite
satisfied with what it can do.


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Re: ER Tools

[Langdon Stevenson]

I currently use MySQLFront on WinXP.  Works ok, but could be better.


I used mysqlfront too when i was on winblows, it's a nice program.
but unless we're talking about 2 programs sharing the same name:
1)it has been discontinued due to legal issues


That is correct.


2)it's more suited to "data-management" (just like phpmyadmin)


Possibly.  I find that it is fine for building tables, query debugging, 
and browsing data.


Since all of my development work is on a local server MySQLFront is good 
solution for me.  I combine it with DDLUtils to syncronise my production 
databases with development databases and that makes up a pretty 
reasonable tool set.


Regards,
Langdon



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Re: ER Tools

[Dr. Tarique Sani]

On 1/4/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

You might want to give the modeling tool umbrello a try, it can do ER
and it can export to various languages,


I was trying to avoid going the UML way :)


iirc there are also some
eclipse plugins available, but afaik they aren't very good.

Again its more more suited to data management and query design and not
too great at that

Thanks

Tarique
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Re: ER Tools

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Langdon Stevenson wrote:

I currently use MySQLFront on WinXP.  Works ok, but could be better.

Regards,
Langdon


I used mysqlfront too when i was on winblows, it's a nice program.
but unless we're talking about 2 programs sharing the same name:
1)it has been discontinued due to legal issues
2)it's more suited to "data-management" (just like phpmyadmin)

so Tarique i know the problem very well, as i have it myself.
dbdesigner is deprecated and mysql workbench is still in a very early
stage. (alhtough it's based on dbdesigner)

You might want to give the modeling tool umbrello a try, it can do ER
and it can export to various languages, iirc there are also some
eclipse plugins available, but afaik they aren't very good.


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Re: ER Tools

[Langdon Stevenson]

I currently use MySQLFront on WinXP.  Works ok, but could be better.

Regards,
Langdon

Dr. Tarique Sani wrote:


Hello All,

This is a bit off topic - so apologies for that.

Which ER / DB design tools do you folks use or rather do you use an ER
tool at all?


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Re: ER Tools

[Dinh]

I am currently using ERStudio by Embarcadero. However, its support of MySQL
5 data types is a bit lacking.

On 1/4/07, Dr. Tarique Sani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Hello All,

This is a bit off topic - so apologies for that.

Which ER / DB design tools do you folks use or rather do you use an ER
tool at all?

I use DBdesginer from fabForce but
#1 it is no longer maintained
#2 it stopped working on my Linux machines (code too old)

Have been unable to find a good open source replacement. MySQL
workbench is too unstable and mostly unusable.

OTOH the phpMyDesigner which is now integrated in the latest devel of
phpMyAdmin looks cool and promising but it will be some time before it
can be used for anything other than playing around

Thanks in advance for all the replies

Cheers
Tarique

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Cheesecake-Photoblog: http://cheesecake-photoblog.org
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>




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ER Tools

[Dr. Tarique Sani]

Hello All,

This is a bit off topic - so apologies for that.

Which ER / DB design tools do you folks use or rather do you use an ER
tool at all?

I use DBdesginer from fabForce but
#1 it is no longer maintained
#2 it stopped working on my Linux machines (code too old)

Have been unable to find a good open source replacement. MySQL
workbench is too unstable and mostly unusable.

OTOH the phpMyDesigner which is now integrated in the latest devel of
phpMyAdmin looks cool and promising but it will be some time before it
can be used for anything other than playing around

Thanks in advance for all the replies

Cheers
Tarique

--
=
PHP Applications for E-Biz: http://www.sanisoft.com
Cheesecake-Photoblog: http://cheesecake-photoblog.org
=

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