Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 5:41 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Is there a schematic anywhere for the hockey puck mice? Don't know if there is a VSXXX-AA mouse schematic anywhere. There is a DEPCA print set: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/depca/MP02421_DEPCA_sch_May87.pdf Page 33 of the PDF has the DEPCA side of the mouse interface. 7-pin connector: (1) Ground (2) RX Data to DEPCA (goes to 9639 Dual Line Receiver) (3) TX Data from DEPCA (comes from 9636 Dual Line Driver) (4) -12V (5) +5V (6) +12V (7) N/C http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/depca/EK-DEPCA-PR-001_Apr89.pdf DEPCA Hardware Reference Manual, EK-DEPCA-PR-001 Chapter 3, Mouse Information details the mouse communication protocol
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
> On Jun 3, 2022, at 8:55 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > On 6/3/22 08:46, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >> On 03/06/2022 03:09, Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote: >>> On 6/1/2022 12:49 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: No one ever called it a "Digital Ethernet Personal Computer Bus Adapter", just a DEPCA. I never previously knew that there was any meaning behind the DEPCA name. >>> >>> Yes, that's what it meant. "DELNI" - Digital Ethernet Local Network >>> Interface. "DESTA" - Digital Ethernet Station Termination Adapter. DELQA - >>> Digital Ethernet Local Q-Bus Adapter (this one probably means something >>> else. Working?). DEMPR - Multi Port Repeater. DEREP - Repeater. And so >>> forth. Yeah, nobody spelled it out, but those DExxx names usually meant >>> what the device was. DEBNT, DEUNA, DEQNA. Same naming convention. I'm >>> probably missing several. >>> -Rick >>> >> The DEPCA manual >> (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/depca/EK-DEPCA-PR-001_Apr89.pdf) >> says "DIGITAL Ethernet Personal Computer Adapter", without "Bus". >> DELQA was "DIGITAL Ethernet Local-Area-Network to Q-bus Adapter" according >> to its user guide. >> It's predecessor, the DEQNA, was "Digital ETHERNET Q-Bus Network Adapter", >> according to its user guide, or "broken", according to most people :-) > > I see comments like this all the time but I used DEQNA, DELQA, > DELUA and DEUNA for years with minimal problems. I think most > of the complaints originate after more modern networking equipment > showed up and people's expectations rose beyond the abilities > of the technology. Like crashing systems by flooding network > segments with traffic. The QNA worked for some applications, but when Local Area VAXclusters appeared it became clear it wasn't good enough for that load. For that matter, one of the transceiver chips used at that time wasn't, either. DEC did a lot of work to try to make it right and could not. Of course, it always was the rule that the devices and systems must not fail under load, any load. That's why DEC bridges were designed for worst case loads. And when they couldn't actually forward under worst case load (as for the DECbridge-900, which would top out at about 2/3 of full 6 port wire rate), the design would ensure that critical control packets were always handled even under overload. We learned from the Cisco Bay Area meltdown, where those routers took down a chunk of the Internet by getting their high load scheduling rules wrong. An extreme example of bad hardware was the 3C501, which had a single buffer so it could never deal with back to back packets. The DECnet architecture group at one time was asked for protocol changes to accommodate that. Our answer amounted to "use correctly designed hardware". paul
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
On 6/3/22 08:55, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 6/3/22 08:46, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: It's predecessor, the DEQNA, was "Digital ETHERNET Q-Bus Network Adapter", according to its user guide, or "broken", according to most people :-) I see comments like this all the time but I used DEQNA, DELQA, DELUA and DEUNA for years with minimal problems. I too have wondered about these comments. I know I wrote a driver for the DEQNA for the C Gateway and I don't recall having any particular difficulty with it. It wasn't as good a programming interface as the Proteon Ringnet, for example, but everything was trending to becoming more complex at that point (like how programming the RK11 compares with MSCP). The DQNA worked for me though and just kept on working. Dave
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
On 6/3/22 08:46, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: On 03/06/2022 03:09, Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote: On 6/1/2022 12:49 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: No one ever called it a "Digital Ethernet Personal Computer Bus Adapter", just a DEPCA. I never previously knew that there was any meaning behind the DEPCA name. Yes, that's what it meant. "DELNI" - Digital Ethernet Local Network Interface. "DESTA" - Digital Ethernet Station Termination Adapter. DELQA - Digital Ethernet Local Q-Bus Adapter (this one probably means something else. Working?). DEMPR - Multi Port Repeater. DEREP - Repeater. And so forth. Yeah, nobody spelled it out, but those DExxx names usually meant what the device was. DEBNT, DEUNA, DEQNA. Same naming convention. I'm probably missing several. -Rick The DEPCA manual (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/depca/EK-DEPCA-PR-001_Apr89.pdf) says "DIGITAL Ethernet Personal Computer Adapter", without "Bus". DELQA was "DIGITAL Ethernet Local-Area-Network to Q-bus Adapter" according to its user guide. It's predecessor, the DEQNA, was "Digital ETHERNET Q-Bus Network Adapter", according to its user guide, or "broken", according to most people :-) I see comments like this all the time but I used DEQNA, DELQA, DELUA and DEUNA for years with minimal problems. I think most of the complaints originate after more modern networking equipment showed up and people's expectations rose beyond the abilities of the technology. Like crashing systems by flooding network segments with traffic. bill
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
> On Jun 3, 2022, at 8:46 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > It's predecessor, the DEQNA, was "Digital ETHERNET Q-Bus Network Adapter", > according to its user guide, or "broken", according to most people :-) Yup. It went through 12 revisions, but even that last "rev L" didn't work, so DEC eventually gave up on it and produced the LQA. Which was a bit of a struggle because some aspects of the QNA API are tied to the original silicon, and emulating them on a very different Ethernet chip is somewhat messy. In particular that applies to the address filtering. paul
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
On 03/06/2022 03:09, Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote: On 6/1/2022 12:49 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: No one ever called it a "Digital Ethernet Personal Computer Bus Adapter", just a DEPCA. I never previously knew that there was any meaning behind the DEPCA name. Yes, that's what it meant. "DELNI" - Digital Ethernet Local Network Interface. "DESTA" - Digital Ethernet Station Termination Adapter. DELQA - Digital Ethernet Local Q-Bus Adapter (this one probably means something else. Working?). DEMPR - Multi Port Repeater. DEREP - Repeater. And so forth. Yeah, nobody spelled it out, but those DExxx names usually meant what the device was. DEBNT, DEUNA, DEQNA. Same naming convention. I'm probably missing several. -Rick The DEPCA manual (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/depca/EK-DEPCA-PR-001_Apr89.pdf) says "DIGITAL Ethernet Personal Computer Adapter", without "Bus". DELQA was "DIGITAL Ethernet Local-Area-Network to Q-bus Adapter" according to its user guide. It's predecessor, the DEQNA, was "Digital ETHERNET Q-Bus Network Adapter", according to its user guide, or "broken", according to most people :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini anto...@acarlini.com
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
On 6/3/22 08:16, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Jun 3, 2022, at 12:47 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: On Thu, Jun 2, 2022, 9:36 PM Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: Speaking of DEPCA, does anybody (a) know what kind of mouse connects (the docs just say DIGITAL MOUSE) and (b) know where to get one? Warner The usual VSXXX round mouse that is also used with VAXstations, either the ball version or the Hawley wheel version. That's a serial (4800 bps UART) mouse, right? The protocol is documented; if all else fails you could create a converter for some other mouse type. I did that for keyboards; the same hardware with different firmware is likely to do the trick. I can't do it because I have nothing that would use such a mouse, though. Is there a schematic anywhere for the hockey puck mice? bill
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
> On Jun 3, 2022, at 12:47 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 2, 2022, 9:36 PM Warner Losh via cctalk > wrote: > >> Speaking of DEPCA, does anybody (a) know what kind of mouse connects (the >> docs just say DIGITAL MOUSE) and (b) know where to get one? >> >> Warner >> > > The usual VSXXX round mouse that is also used with VAXstations, either the > ball version or the Hawley wheel version. That's a serial (4800 bps UART) mouse, right? The protocol is documented; if all else fails you could create a converter for some other mouse type. I did that for keyboards; the same hardware with different firmware is likely to do the trick. I can't do it because I have nothing that would use such a mouse, though. paul
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
On Thu, Jun 2, 2022, 9:36 PM Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of DEPCA, does anybody (a) know what kind of mouse connects (the > docs just say DIGITAL MOUSE) and (b) know where to get one? > > Warner > The usual VSXXX round mouse that is also used with VAXstations, either the ball version or the Hawley wheel version. >
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
Speaking of DEPCA, does anybody (a) know what kind of mouse connects (the docs just say DIGITAL MOUSE) and (b) know where to get one? Warner On Thu, Jun 2, 2022 at 9:47 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jun 2, 2022 at 10:09 PM Rick Murphy via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 6/1/2022 12:49 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > > No one ever called it a "Digital Ethernet Personal Computer Bus > > > Adapter", just a DEPCA. I never previously knew that there was any > > > meaning behind the DEPCA name. > > > > Yes, that's what it meant. "DELNI" - Digital Ethernet Local Network > > Interface. "DESTA" - Digital Ethernet Station Termination Adapter. DELQA > > - Digital Ethernet Local Q-Bus Adapter (this one probably means > > something else. Working?). DEMPR - Multi Port Repeater. DEREP - > > Repeater. And so forth. Yeah, nobody spelled it out, but those DExxx > > names usually meant what the device was. DEBNT, DEUNA, DEQNA. Same > > naming convention. I'm probably missing several. > > -Rick > > > > I ended up getting it all working. I found the DEPCA card I needed, > the correct scripts now run, etc. I tore down my VAX cluster some > time ago, I would need to set up a new one, change the scripts to > match the services available and the names to continue with this > project. > > BIll >
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
On Thu, Jun 2, 2022 at 10:09 PM Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/1/2022 12:49 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > No one ever called it a "Digital Ethernet Personal Computer Bus > > Adapter", just a DEPCA. I never previously knew that there was any > > meaning behind the DEPCA name. > > Yes, that's what it meant. "DELNI" - Digital Ethernet Local Network > Interface. "DESTA" - Digital Ethernet Station Termination Adapter. DELQA > - Digital Ethernet Local Q-Bus Adapter (this one probably means > something else. Working?). DEMPR - Multi Port Repeater. DEREP - > Repeater. And so forth. Yeah, nobody spelled it out, but those DExxx > names usually meant what the device was. DEBNT, DEUNA, DEQNA. Same > naming convention. I'm probably missing several. > -Rick > I ended up getting it all working. I found the DEPCA card I needed, the correct scripts now run, etc. I tore down my VAX cluster some time ago, I would need to set up a new one, change the scripts to match the services available and the names to continue with this project. BIll
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
On 6/1/2022 12:49 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: No one ever called it a "Digital Ethernet Personal Computer Bus Adapter", just a DEPCA. I never previously knew that there was any meaning behind the DEPCA name. Yes, that's what it meant. "DELNI" - Digital Ethernet Local Network Interface. "DESTA" - Digital Ethernet Station Termination Adapter. DELQA - Digital Ethernet Local Q-Bus Adapter (this one probably means something else. Working?). DEMPR - Multi Port Repeater. DEREP - Repeater. And so forth. Yeah, nobody spelled it out, but those DExxx names usually meant what the device was. DEBNT, DEUNA, DEQNA. Same naming convention. I'm probably missing several. -Rick
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
> On Jun 2, 2022, at 12:11 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > When I added more RAM to the system to bring up to 512K and installed > the DEPCA controller I was able to get the system to boot up and run > the connection scripts that search for a DEC network and associated > services. Alas, the network is long goneI would have to attempt > to recreate it! Sounds like you're ready to put it on Hecnet. paul
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
> > > ... > > > I believe the DEPCA was based on the venerable > > > SONIC chipset, but it may have been the LANCE. It wasn't NE-2000 > > compatible > > > (that came later) :). > > > > LANCE seems plausible, or perhaps one of the later chips designed by DEC > > Jerusalem (SGEC etc.). What's a SONIC? > > > > SONIC was NatSemi part that a lot of workstations of the early 90s used. It > does post-date LANCE by a few years. > > > > The non-LANCE non-DEC Ethernets I remember are in the DEUNA (no idea > > what), QNA (Fujitsu???) and CNA (Intel 82586, *groan*). The LANCE was > > designed well, with a fair amount of DEC input, and the subsequent > > internally produced chips were constructed along similar lines. Once DEC > > learned how to make them at not quite insane cost, they became a very good > > choice and were generally used in DEC products. > > > > The LANCE and its children were nice chips. > > There's several DEPCAs for 8-bit ISA on ebay for about $50 (and a couple > for a lot more), and as others have pointed out it is a variation of the > Am7990. > > Warner I found two in my inventory of related controllers. AM7990DC/80 When I added more RAM to the system to bring up to 512K and installed the DEPCA controller I was able to get the system to boot up and run the connection scripts that search for a DEC network and associated services. Alas, the network is long goneI would have to attempt to recreate it! Anyway, I love that I was able to learn at least how a PC might be configured for such work. It would not be impossible at all to connect this PC to a VAX 4000 driven DECNET by editing the script with the correct names and services on both ends. Anyone here doing this kind of thing? Bill
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
On Wed, Jun 1, 2022 at 7:51 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Jun 1, 2022, at 5:53 AM, Warner Losh via cctech < > cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ... > > I believe the DEPCA was based on the venerable > > SONIC chipset, but it may have been the LANCE. It wasn't NE-2000 > compatible > > (that came later) :). > > LANCE seems plausible, or perhaps one of the later chips designed by DEC > Jerusalem (SGEC etc.). What's a SONIC? > SONIC was NatSemi part that a lot of workstations of the early 90s used. It does post-date LANCE by a few years. > The non-LANCE non-DEC Ethernets I remember are in the DEUNA (no idea > what), QNA (Fujitsu???) and CNA (Intel 82586, *groan*). The LANCE was > designed well, with a fair amount of DEC input, and the subsequent > internally produced chips were constructed along similar lines. Once DEC > learned how to make them at not quite insane cost, they became a very good > choice and were generally used in DEC products. > The LANCE and its children were nice chips. There's several DEPCAs for 8-bit ISA on ebay for about $50 (and a couple for a lot more), and as others have pointed out it is a variation of the Am7990. Warner
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
On Wed, Jun 1, 2022, 6:52 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jun 1, 2022, at 5:53 AM, Warner Losh via cctech < > cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ... > > I believe the DEPCA was based on the venerable > > SONIC chipset, but it may have been the LANCE. It wasn't NE-2000 > compatible > > (that came later) :). > > LANCE seems plausible, or perhaps one of the later chips designed by DEC > Jerusalem (SGEC etc.). What's a SONIC? > > The non-LANCE non-DEC Ethernets I remember are in the DEUNA (no idea > what), QNA (Fujitsu???) and CNA (Intel 82586, *groan*). The LANCE was > designed well, with a fair amount of DEC input, and the subsequent > internally produced chips were constructed along similar lines. Once DEC > learned how to make them at not quite insane cost, they became a very good > choice and were generally used in DEC products. > > paul > The DEPCA did use the AMD Lance Am7990. >
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
> On Jun 1, 2022, at 5:53 AM, Warner Losh via cctech > wrote: > > ... > I believe the DEPCA was based on the venerable > SONIC chipset, but it may have been the LANCE. It wasn't NE-2000 compatible > (that came later) :). LANCE seems plausible, or perhaps one of the later chips designed by DEC Jerusalem (SGEC etc.). What's a SONIC? The non-LANCE non-DEC Ethernets I remember are in the DEUNA (no idea what), QNA (Fujitsu???) and CNA (Intel 82586, *groan*). The LANCE was designed well, with a fair amount of DEC input, and the subsequent internally produced chips were constructed along similar lines. Once DEC learned how to make them at not quite insane cost, they became a very good choice and were generally used in DEC products. paul
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
On Tue, May 31, 2022 at 10:08 PM Wayne S via cctech wrote: > I think Decnet can run over a serial connection (rs-232) if you have > Decnet software. It’s not medium dependent. I got it to work years ago from > vax-to-vax. I’m not aware of any pc decnet software although I haven’t > looked much into it. Should work over ethernet too. Do you have any Decnet > pc software? > The first PC version of DECnet was over serial. There's copies of it in bitsavers.org. The second version had ethernet support. There's copies of the IBM PC version of that software on bitkeepers, but not the DEC Rainbow version, alas. Then again, the Ethernet card for the DEC Rainbow is quite rare these days (I've not seen one in 15 years of looking), as is the software that describes how it was put together. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/decnet/ is the archive. If you want ETHERNET, you should use the V2.0 or newer code. V1.1 was serial only. I believe the DEPCA was based on the venerable SONIC chipset, but it may have been the LANCE. It wasn't NE-2000 compatible (that came later) :). The Rainbow design supposed was quite similar, but I've only been able to find old review articles about it, nothing concrete. Warner > Sent from my iPhone > > > On May 31, 2022, at 20:57, Bill Degnan via cctech > wrote: > > > > Here is a link to a set of screen shot of the autoexec.bat and > > config.sys for an IBM PC I came across today and the boot screen when > > these are attempted without the networking hardware attached.. > > > > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/IBM/5150/5150_DEC/ > > > > Specific to IBMPC to DECNET networking...anyone worked in this > > environment? Not me. I don't have the D drive that fails or the > > network, but I am curious what I would need to make this work. Maybe > > I can put something together. Anyone using a Digital Ethernet > > Personal Computer Bus Adapter today? > > > > The A drive had a jumper between 4-pin connectors 10 and 13 but it was > > not functional and I replaced the drive entirely. Not sure if I > > needed a 720K drive attached externally or something in order for the > > 5 1/4" drive jumpered this way to work. I have a pic of this there > > too. > > > > Weird. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > BIll >
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
On 5/31/22 10:48 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: If the stack that's installed is DECnet/DOS, then there are a few docs on bitsavers. I'd guess that the command "C:\CJR" leads to the stuff that loads the network stack and tries to set up the connections. I have zero experience with DECnet of any form ... yet. But it looks like the commands in the autoexec.bat file are loading keyboard / display drivers and not networking. I agree and think the c:\cjr command (batch file?) is probably where the network commands are coming from. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
On Tue, May 31, 2022 at 8:56 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Specific to IBMPC to DECNET networking...anyone worked in this > environment? Not me. I don't have the D drive that fails or the > network, but I am curious what I would need to make this work. Maybe > I can put something together. Anyone using a Digital Ethernet > Personal Computer Bus Adapter today? > No one ever called it a "Digital Ethernet Personal Computer Bus Adapter", just a DEPCA. I never previously knew that there was any meaning behind the DEPCA name. I have a DEPCA in a 486 box that I got set up a while ago with some version of DECnet DOS, or Pathworks, from here, I forget which version without setting it up to take a look: http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/decnet/ Over 30 years ago I worked on PC DECwindows for DOS for a couple of years. There were Rational 286 and PharLap 386 DOS Extender versions. The DECnet DOS development was in a different group in a different building. The PC DECwindows for DOS server used DECnet DOS as a network transport.
Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET
> Specific to IBMPC to DECNET networking...anyone worked in this > environment? Not me. I don't have the D drive that fails or the > network, but I am curious what I would need to make this work. Maybe > I can put something together. Anyone using a Digital Ethernet > Personal Computer Bus Adapter today? If the stack that's installed is DECnet/DOS, then there are a few docs on bitsavers. I'd guess that the command "C:\CJR" leads to the stuff that loads the network stack and tries to set up the connections. The stack may have drivers for other ethernet card types. If it is some form of DECnet then it might be able to talk to, say, a DECnet Phase IV stack on an emulated vax, making it fairly easy to set up a test. If it's not DECnet/DOS, sniffing the files in the C:\DEC file tree might be informative. De
