tangoGPS 0.99.4 - now more sports fun, revive your Freerunner

[Marcus Bauer]

Hi,

long time no see. A new release of tangoGPS is out with some major
stuff plenty of little improvements, still getting even a bit 
faster and snappier here and there.

Major stuff is support for heart rate monitors, based on some patches
sent by Tobias Prousa. If you are using your freerunner for sports /
outdoor activity, this hopefully brings it to a whole new level for
you!

Other stuff is a shortcut for reloading the tiles of the current view
(F5) which was requested by JP Meijers who is a very active OSMer in
South Africa.

Full release announcement and tarball on http://www.tangogps.org/

Have fun!

Marcus

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 09:55 -0700, Edward Falk wrote:
> I really liked using GTK to develop -- it meant I could write my code on 
> a workstation with the intent of porting it to Moko later, and also with 
> the possibility of writing a workstation version of the same app.
> 
> So what are supposed to program in now?  Is GTK actually going away? 
> Whatever I switch to, will it run on other platforms (like Linux), or is 
> it proprietary?


Being the developer of tangogps.org, a gps and mapping app for the Neo
as well as for the desktop or eeePC I can tell you to rest assured that
GTK apps will run on the Neo :) Thus just keep going with GTK if you
already do.

Marcus


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Re: Ublox AGPS On-line impelementation

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 13:30 +0100, Joseph Reeves wrote:
> Matt, that's great, thanks, will compile now.
> 
> I've just emailed u-blox support requesting a username and password;
> hopefully I'll be able to test this soon enough (just need to find a
> reasonable way of getting GPRS to work now...)


I already wrote u-blox a couple of days ago and they told me to contact
the manufacturer...

Michael Shiloh, can you tell us how to proceed?

Thanks,
Marcus


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 13:15 -0700, Lowell Higley wrote:

> In this case, the iPhone is way more expensive than an iPhone.
 ^^^

  I always knew there is some conspiracy going on with Apple ;-p




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Re: Openmoko official resell partners

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-06-11 at 17:43 +0800, Harry Tsai wrote:
> Dear Community,
> You should already know Pulster and IDA, they are our official
> reseller in the Germany and India.
> Today, I want to introduce new partners in Germany and UK,  you can
> buy freerunner from them for save your shipping cost and time.
> We also have a formal press will release to public later.
> 
> Germany
> Golden Delicious Computers- http://www.goldelico.com  Dr.Nikolaus
> Schaller

Hey, the shop (not the website) is already openmokoed ;-)


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Re: GPS

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2008-06-23 at 10:25 +0200, Federico Lorenzi wrote:
> This seems to be really misunderstood. The GPS is the Freerunner can
> get a fix with no help whatsoever, it'll just take longer. This is
> where the AGPS can come in. Download some data off an assistance
> server, and suddenly your time to fix is much less. There have been
> posts to this mailing list about it.

My experience with the Freerunner is ~12 minutes TTFF (time to first
fix) without use of agps and ~4-8 minutes TTFF with agps from
agps.u-blox.com using the software from openmoko.

The Neo1973 (GTA01) had a TTFF without agps assistance of ~2 min.

However, the freerunner shows correct altitude above geoid whereas the
Neo1973 shows only height above WGS-84 ellipsoid. Depending on your
location the difference between WGS-84 and geoid introduces an error
from -102m to +86m towards your real altitude.





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Re: Slashdot post but no web store?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 02:30 +0200, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
> > I connect my 1973 to my car's 
> > AUX input and it sounds just fine. The issue he has is with the
> > headset, not the jack. Either way, his assessment is true - headset
> > quality and audio issues make using the Freerunner as a DAP impossible
> > today.
> 
> Only (partially) true for usage with low impedance headphones.

This question has been asked before on the list: can you provide any
pointers to such headsets? They don't seem to exist. And at least Nokia
headsets with 2.5mm plug use a different wiring and don't work on the
Neo.

Can you please tell us which headphones are high impedance and have the
same wiring? This question is kind of open since a year.


> Our tests on GPS TTFF where quite comparable with some of the best devices 
> available. However note there is some data GPS *has* to download from sat 
> for "virgin" fix, which may take as long as 12min due to low bandwidth the 
> sats offer (just takes this time for them to send one complete set of ephem 
> and alm),

Under good conditions all modern GPS chips have a cold start TTFF
("virgin fix") of ~45secs. 12min is the value for 8 to 10 year old
chips.

> On tests done at Taipei the TTFF was around ~40sec without(!) 
> AGPS, IIRC.

All reports on the MLs spoke about minutes or not getting a fix at all.

> So this is a clear sw-issue.

What could be the problem then? Usually you power the GPS up and you
listen on /dev/ttySAC1 for the NMEA sentences. That's how it works on
the Neo1973 and every other device. What software tweaking can be made?




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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 15:09 +0300, Mikko Rauhala wrote:
> On pe, 2008-06-27 at 13:56 +0200, Lucas Bonnet wrote:
> > Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > I encourage you to get involved today. We need your help. Waiting for 
> > > GTA03 is a possibility of course, but keep in mind how long it took us 
> > > to go from 01 to 02.
> > 
> > Sure, how can we help?
> 
> If I may interject, I would presume Sean here is talking about buying
> what's available now (instead of next year, even with the GTA03 not
> being a major improvement anyway in most respects), and, you know,
> running with it.

Lucas is one of the heads behind bearstech, one of the European
distributors. I guess he fully supports your statement ;-)


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Community Initiative GTK

[Marcus Bauer]

Hello,

I'm wondering if there is any interest in maintaining the GTK software
stack? 

Actually many companies have expressed their interest in a GTK based
platform as it is perceived as more future proof than some kind of
exotic software stack with a very small developer base.

Lots of hesitation comes from the switch to this new stack-mix as all
the big ones are going GTK:


* Limo (pretty much all big mobile companies plus Intel etc)
* Lips
* Firefox
* Openoffice
* Ubuntu
* Ubuntu mobile
* Garmin


IMHO it is very important for the future of Openmoko and open software
on mobile phones to grow an ecosystem that involves both, many companies
and many free software developers.

Thus are there developers/companies on the list interested in
maintaining GTK on the openmoko phones and starting a community
initiative? Pretty much 90% is already there!

Marcus


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Re: Community Initiative GTK

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 17:27 +0200, Francesco Cat wrote:
> I must have missed something... Can you post some links to explain
> what are the future plans for the Software Stack? Will GTK not be
> present any more?

Basically Openmoko has stopped the development of the GTK stack in order
to start a new stack called ASU. There are some 10.000 developers for
GTK who can start any time making software for the Neo while there are
very few developers for ASU, maybe 50. ASU is only used on the Neo
whereas your GTK apps will run on the desktop or on the new MID devices
like the ASUS eeePC right out of the box. Naturally for an open source
developer it is a difference if the software will run on some hundred
Neos or on some million PCs and MIDs.

The GTK stack simply needs maintainance and bugfixing to remain a
perfect platform for future developments.

A really nice thing about the current GTK stack is the abilily to work
in portrait and landscape mode just the same. It is just a lot of fun to
automatically turn your screen while turning the phone in your hands.


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Re: Freerunner @ pulster.eu Shop

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 18:11 +0200, Bumbl wrote:
> Freerunner 299€
> Headset 9€
> Bag 19€
> summa summarum 237€
> Cheaper than trisoft (which doesn't ship the bag and the headset at all) 
> and golden delicious which offer it for 350€
> If one does not need it noone is forced to buy it

As discussed, the headset is mostly useless. Phone calls are impossible
and it is a low impedance one thus lacking any bass frequencies. Plus
the cable is quite stiff and while walking the earbuds will inevitably
fall out of your ears. You can find them on ebay for one or two dollars
new.

The pouch is quite nice but lacks a clip to wear it on a belt. Probably
you find a cheaper and better suitable one in a local shop. Naturally it
will not have the cool openmoko logo...


> e009052 schrieb:
> > I wanted to order mine too, but it looks as if the 299 eur does not 
> > include the bag and headset as for
> > other shops (trisoft, handheld linux). And I thought that were gifts 
> > from openmoko.
> >
> > Do I really have to order them separately? And which price?
> >
> > Ed.
> >
> > 2008/6/27 Bumbl <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >:
> >
> > Christoph Pulster schrieb:
> > >> what about the german distributors subscribed to this list
> > >> any news on freerunners received?
> > >>
> > >
> > > We start sales 07/05/2008 (5.July) and accept orders now.
> > > Price 299 eur incl. VAT. A cheap price means more owners.
> > > That's what the community needs.
> > >
> > > Christoph
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Openmoko community mailing list
> > > community@lists.openmoko.org 
> > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> > >
> > >
> > Ordered mine too
> > with bag and headphones
> >
> > ___
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org 
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > ___
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >   
> 
> 
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community


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Re: Community Initiative GTK

[Marcus Bauer]

On Sat, 2008-06-28 at 04:13 +1000, Lorn Potter wrote:
> Marcus Bauer wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I'm wondering if there is any interest in maintaining the GTK software
> > stack? 
> > 
> > Actually many companies have expressed their interest in a GTK based
> > platform as it is perceived as more future proof than some kind of
> > exotic software stack with a very small developer base.
> > 
> > Lots of hesitation comes from the switch to this new stack-mix as all
> > the big ones are going GTK:
> > 
> > 
> > * Limo (pretty much all big mobile companies plus Intel etc)
> > * Lips
> > * Firefox
> > * Openoffice
> > * Ubuntu
> > * Ubuntu mobile
> > * Garmin
> 
> Garmin's nuvifone is based on Qtopia.

Not the upcoming ones:
http://butterfeet.org/?p=57



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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 17:00 -0400, Yuval Levy wrote:

> my personal interest for the OpenMoko is as a device to display Virtual 
> Reality (VR). That's a 3D application where a picture is mapped on a 
> sphere or cube and rotated by the user. 3D-accelerated displays have a 
> much higher frame per second (FPS) resulting in smoother viewing or 
> faster panning.

the glamo chip is 3D but there is no driver on openmoko for using it.
due to the way it is connected to the cpu the glamo chip slows the
freerunner *down*. despite the faster cpu the freeruner is ~50% slower
than the 1973. the cpu is blocked during any kind of graphics i/o and
there have been discussions to simply remove it in order to speed the
freerunner up.


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Re: GPS

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 18:24 +0200, Mathias Ballner wrote:
> hi all,
> today i tried to get the gps running, but i didn't get a gps fix
> i tested it with tangogps (nice tool!) and openmoko-agpsui
> the only output i got was:

> http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/6d11990f0c82d92f0252742d7ef44950.png
> what do i do wrong?
> mathias

It seems nobody gets a quick fix. Times range from 10 to 60 minutes if
any fix at all. There is a similar thread running on the developer list
but no answers from Openmoko. Normal for a cold start would be 
45secs-2min and with agps ~15secs. This is industry standard and stated
on the specs page of u-blox. The GTA01 (Neo 1973) gets a fix in one
minute after a cold start.

All modern chips (and the u-blox is a modern chip) can get a fix without
downloading the full almanac (which takes 12.5 minutes). The ephemeris
is sufficient and comes in 30secs.

I think this is an important issue and hope that Sean or Wolfgang can
give answers. I CC'd Steve too, because this equally effects the VAR
markets.

If they don't answer it is probably the best to send your FR back before
the warrenty expires and buy a new FR once this issue is resolved.

Marcus



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Re: Posible Bluetooth Keyboard

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 16:39 -0600, michael irons wrote:
> >
> >
> > The Stowaway from iGo / ThinkOutside works nicely for me.
> >
> 
> I was looking at that, but they seem to not be selling them anymore...
> Any ideas where to find one in US

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=igo+bluetooth&x=0&y=0

Several supplieres. HTH



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Re: GPS

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2008-07-08 at 13:36 +0200, flexd wrote:
> Im actually having some trouble installing that, it says:
> 
> /
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/bin# opkg install 
> http://people.openmoko.org/tony_tu/GTA02/util/gps/openmoko-agpsui_0.1+svnr7-r0_armv4t.ipk
> Downloading 
> http://people.openmoko.org/tony_tu/GTA02/util/gps/openmoko-agpsui_0.1+svnr7-r0_armv4t.ipk
> Multiple packages (openmoko-agpsui and openmoko-agpsui) providing same 
> name marked HOLD or PREFER.  Using latest.
> Installing openmoko-agpsui (0.1+svnr7-r0) to root...
> Collected errors:
>  * Package openmoko-agpsui md5sum mismatch. Either the opkg or the 
> package index are corrupt. Try 'opkg update'.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/bin#
> 
> Not entirely sure what to do as im no linux expert :)
> /

simply do 

  opkg install openmoko-agpsui

as it seems to be in the repositories. And although being the same
version it has a different md5sum, that's why opkg complains.


Marcus



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Re: T-Mobile with ASU on GTA01?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-07-09 at 09:25 +0200, thomasg wrote:
> ASU works basically, but getting telephony work with it is a matter of
> luck.
> Mostly it doesn't work at all, mostly the qtopia phoneserver eats 90%
> CPU..

You may have one of the broken GSM modems. From my four phones two have
a broken GSM - that's 50%.

They constantly reconnect to the cell tower and inbetween the can't make
phone calls and loose the GPRS connection but without notifying the
pppd.

This is the same with the mature OM2007.2 images as well as with the
professionally by Trolltech developed pure qtopia images, the ASU images
the the new hyped FSO images. 


This is another hardware problem which is shared with the Neo 1973 and
thus known since a year. The answer by Dr. Michael Lauer was "Guys, this
is a Heisenbug. We pray that it does not occur too often in the field.".

That is a very interesting engineering approach...


The bug in question is:
http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1024


The big problem with Openmoko is this "not invented here" mentality. The
OM2007.2 images were working well, GTK is a valid platform for mobile
gadgets (see Nokia N700, N800, N810), you can add "bling" (see clutter)
and there is a huge developer base. The qtopia port to X adds a second
huge developer base.

But instead of going on and having a base for testing the hardware,
there came this change to ASU and etk which probably 0.1% of Linux
developers use. And despite what Lauer & Co try to make us believe, this
alienates GTK and qt developers. Just look on the planets of KDE and
GNOME - nearly no mentionings. The developer mailing list: a big void.

But the real problem here is that basically due to this reinventing the
wheel with ASU nobody inside Openmoko has ever really used the phones
thus plenty of things which could have come up simply got lost. If Sean,
Wolfgang and Steve would have started to exclusivly eat their own
dogfood, i.e. using the Neo as their daily phone, things like
oszillating GSM modems, non working GPS, SIM cards, deep discharge
batteries, noisy headsets would have been since long ironed out.

Before now all the fanbois jump onto me and accuse me of trolling:
in order to come to some lifestyle competitor of Apple the important
thing is that the basics work and that they work reliably. Accepting
brokeness as part of freedom is doing a disservice to the free software
world.

And it is even more unacceptable as there were 5000 people buying a Neo
1973 more or less for nothing. They all would have been more than happy
to participate in advancing the Neo.

The point being: the Neo *is* a fantastic concept. Bring it there. Stop
ASU, concentrate on the basics, get the gtk and qt communities in.









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Re: T-Mobile with ASU on GTA01?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-07-09 at 16:38 +0200, thomasg wrote:

> Like said before, they are (at least for me) all but working well (not
> even to mention the UI design with 2-color icons without ever knowing
> what they might mean).

Some of the icons are all but intuitive but this is a question of the
icons and not of the toolkit. 


> The FSO-stack is what's needed to get that API and to get the
> developers.

The FSO-stack is another case of reinventing the wheel. It sounds nice
on the paper but in reality this is a horror. There are PIM APIs like
eds and whatever in the KDE world or qtopia is used. It took years for
them to grow mature and nobody needs yet another API.

The thing is that Michael Lauer massively dislikes C and needs
everything reinvented in Python. C has its place in the embedded world
as much as Python has. But again we cut a huge slice out of the
developer base.

The current work separation between gsmd and phone-kit is a very clever
one, but again not invented here but at o-hand. There have been plenty
of alternatives been offered for the current gsmd but they were all
blocked out. And many of those people simply left. 


> The userbase of Nokias Internet Tablet Series is huge, but it looks
> for me as the developerbase isn't that big in relation, and that with
> a GTK-stack.

What makes you think this will be different with ETK? This means even
less developers.

> Even Nokia bought Trolltech, and I bet they'll drop GTK eventually

And shortly afterwards Nokia bought Symbian. They are not going to drop
any of the three. They just do everything to put up a front against
Google's Android. That's what they fear.

> They are paying the Trolltech folks now, and they are also paying EFL
> developers.

Yes, there is a cool application for connecting the N800 to your car
electronics and see into the engine management. The point being is that
there are way less ETK developers than GTK developers or qt developers

> Again on the developers: they had nothing to work with.

This is simply not true. It was just a lack of documentation. And I
can't help it, but this has been deliberately blocked in order to pave
the way for this ASU/FSO. Even developers from o-hand who developed for
Openmoko in their freetime finally left the boat being completely
disgusted by the fact of constantly running against walls.

>  FSO with it's dbus-api will make this much easier

IMHO this is just pure nonsense. I know that it has been repeated over
and over again by Michael Lauer because it is his baby. It is one big
pack that rather would be split in tiny packages. That makes development
and debugging a lot easier. Moreover this will take another two years
until it has some API stability. A huge API like this doesn't come
overnight.
Last not least: if you want to use your code in the future on a moblin
device you are just doomed/trapped in an API that nobody else uses.









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Re: T-Mobile with ASU on GTA01?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-07-09 at 17:29 +0200, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> Am Mittwoch 09 Juli 2008 10:23:51 schrieb Marcus Bauer:
> > This is another hardware problem which is shared with the Neo 1973 and
> > thus known since a year. The answer by Dr. Michael Lauer was "Guys, this
> > is a Heisenbug. We pray that it does not occur too often in the field.".
> >
> > That is a very interesting engineering approach...
> 
> Thanks for cutting my answer to make it look like I don't care.

The investigation into the probelem simply stopped. If finding the
solution is out of your abilites then simply forward the problem to
somebody else. For heaven's sake, what is the key function of a mobile
phone? Exactly, making calls. The cheapest phone you buy at your local
vendor will do so. If you run into a hardware/firmware bug that prevents
users from doing so, then forward the problem to somebody who can solve
it.

There was a even a mail from Erin concerning this subject:

http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-March/014122.html

And one day you abandon the bug. You simply did not care. At least the
test procedures would have needed to be adapted adequately to catch
those phones.


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Re: x offset in landscape mode

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-07-09 at 21:28 +0200, Michael Kluge wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I have a slight problem with the landscape mode. It seems that the 
> touchscreen subtracts
> some value from the x position where I touched the screen with the 
> stylus. The y value
> seems to be fine.  If I tap on the '+' on the bottom of the screen it 
> looks like I tapped
> the 'home' icon. I this a known problem? Has anyone tried the landscape 
> mode and
> found that everything is OK?

The bug is just four months old. Openmoko thinks you should not switch
to landscape stay upright! ;-)

I suspect the offset to be 160pixel (i.e. 640x480). It works on the
Neo1973(GTA01), thus it is most likely an xglamo issue.

A nice thing to do is to switch on the mouse cursor so that you know
where the Xserver thinks you clicked.

In /etc/matchbox/session set SHOWCURSOR="yes"
and in /etc/X11/Xserver look for the entry for GTA02 and remove the
-hide-cursor switch.

Marcus



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Re: Reason for GPS problems found!

[Marcus Bauer]

Confirming this too. Under decent conditions first TTFF 130s, then after
a power down/power up it was ~40secs. Never saw it that fast on the
Neo1973. Excellent! Well, more or less :o)



On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 12:42 +0200, thomasg wrote:
> Hi ppl,
> 
> I write this to community, not to devel or owners because everyone
> should know:
> sbeh, one of the people in #neo1973-germany IRC-channel found the
> reason for the GPS problems.
> The problem only occurs if a SD card is set in. Doesn't matter if it's
> mounted or in use, it just has to sit in the socket.
> The TTFF went from no fix at all to TTFF 120 seconds indoor(!!!), and
> about 40 seconds outdoor.
> Two other people could verify this with about the same results.
> We'll do more tests later, but for now we surely know what's causing
> the problem (and it seems to be a EMC problem).
> 
> First results show at the same devices, even outdoor, that there is no
> fix in over 400 seconds with SD card, the signal seems to be at least
> 10 to 20 dB worse (so bad, that most satellites don't even appear).
> 
> Testresults from other people appreciated.
> 
> thomasg
> 
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Re: Reason for GPS problems found!

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 12:42 +0200, thomasg wrote:

> First results show at the same devices, even outdoor, that there is no
> fix in over 400 seconds with SD card, the signal seems to be at least
> 10 to 20 dB worse (so bad, that most satellites don't even appear).

confirming this too. I never saw a satellite with more than -140dBm. Now
the strongest ones go up to nearly -125dBm.

Absolutely fantastic results here. Very quick in reacquiring a fix, even
while still in a building. 

who needs SD cards anyway ;-p


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Re: Reason for GPS problems found!

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-07-16 at 09:22 +0800, Wolfgang Spraul wrote:
> Alejandro -
> 
> > This issue does not look good. Is there someone in Openmoko or FIC  
> > aware of it?
> 
> Aware of it? You must be kidding.

Dear Wolfgang,

there remains one question that the community has to you and it is even
more important than the question why this was not caught in factory
testing:

>From all the Openmoko employees nobody has realized that the GPS is
broken. Why have you not used the phone yourselves? Why are you abusing
the community in such a shameless way?


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Re: Reason for GPS problems found!

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-07-16 at 08:45 +0200, Kalle Happonen wrote:
> > Its really pretty important that the communication on this issue *not*  
> > diverge into hate and vitriol towards customers, because to those who  
> > are observing the OpenMoko project - not participating - the SD+GPS  
> > testing issue is a *huge* screw up.
> >
> >   
> No, the SD+GPS issue is a bug. Admittedly a somewhat nasty bug, but 
> nothing extraordinary. The Debian key generation vulnerability was a 
> *huge* screw up.

I don't follow your view. The Debian ssh bug was all but obvious. That's
why it went for a long time unnoticed. 

However, the GPS is a basic feature and its malfunctioning is very
obvious. If you buy a new car and the engine doesn't run you'll wonder
if anybody ever drove around with it.

The same goes for making phone calls: there is quite often a buzzing
sound on the far end and it can be really bad. Unless you don't care
about the people you are calling the Neo is not usable as your daily
phone.

Then there are the phones with a GSM modem that constantly re-registers.

And there is still no word about which headsets are usable with the Neo.

Don't mix up freedom with broken hardware!


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Re: New Freerunner, factory image - "Registering..."

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-07-16 at 12:01 -0500, Greg Bonett wrote:
> >
> > Anyway, once booted to the factory image I get continuously a
> > "Registering..." message in the top-left corner of the Home screen.
> > After 30 minutes or so this message persists.
> >
> 
> Did you get this resolved?  I'm having the same experience right now. 
> Still doing some testing though...


This is a defective GSM modem.

http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1024

>From my four Neo's two show the problem. It is the same with the FSO
image. 

The modem will connect over and over again to the cell tower and thus
quickly drain the battery.

But this is okay. It is just a Heisenbug. The OM team is doing a great
job and we should alltogether stop this kind of negative messages.



/me, putting my teletubby hat on ;-p


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Re: GPS problems, summary

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-07-16 at 21:38 +0200, Alasal wrote:

> What is the problem?
>  - The Openmoko Freerunner have a long TTFF with the SD card in the
> phone. So it takes a long time (10min+) before you get your first GPS
> data.

More specific: the GPS signal level drops by -20dBm, i.e. factor 100.
Signal strength of a GPS satellite above your head is around -127dBm.
Needed strength for a first fix is -145dBm with a minimum of three
satellites. Once the GPS chip has a fix, it can operate at signal levels
of -157dBm, thus making it possible to operate while there is data
transfer from/to the SD card.


> So if we have a first fix, the SD card isn't blocking the GPS anymore?
>  - yes, the SD card isn't blocking the GPS if we have a first fix.
> (Some people even claim it's more stable)

The FR's GPS performance is definitely top notch without the SD card.


> But we can't read of the SD card when the GPS is on?
>  - Wrong, you will be able to read the SD card when the GPS is on. You
> will probably not be able to read the SD card when you're starting the
> GPS (appr. 30 sec), because the GPS will only block the SD card when
> it's searching it's first fix. After that you will be able to read the
> SD card again.

You can always read the SD card. As said above the GPS signal
temporarily drops by -20dBm during i/o.

The kernel patch is a pragmatic and well working solution and should not
effect daily use.

> Summary of the summary:
> You will be able to use the SD card in the same time of the GPS except
> for the first appr 30 seconds. (And that's the worst case, because
> maybe Openmoko can find better hacks/fixes)

With the help of AGPS you can shorten it probably to 15 seconds.




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Re: GPS problems, summary

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-07-16 at 23:00 +0200, Yorick Moko wrote:
> question:
> does the lower signal also effect accuracy?

It is a good deal more jittery. However, if you drive around in a city
you will get a lot more error from signal reflections than from the
jitter. IMHO nothing to worry about.




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Re: New Freerunner, factory image - "Registering..."

[Marcus Bauer]

You could post the output of "logread -f"

On Thu, 2008-07-17 at 09:42 -0500, Greg Bonett wrote:
> Although I'm still having trouble getting this SIM card to work but I
> think it's doable.  It actually registered last night and I was able to
> make and receive a phone call.  After a reboot it went back to
> "Registering"
> 
> It sounds like the "contacts lining up" issue is not the problem. I think
> its lining up correctly.
> 
> Image of SIM:
> http://www.gregbonett.org/sim.png
> 
> > On Wednesday 16 July 2008, Stroller wrote:
> >> On 16 Jul 2008, at 18:01, Greg Bonett wrote:
> >> >> ...
> >> >> Anyway, once booted to the factory image I get continuously a
> >> >> "Registering..." message in the top-left corner of the Home screen.
> >> >> After 30 minutes or so this message persists.
> >> >
> >> > Did you get this resolved?  I'm having the same experience right now.
> >> > Still doing some testing though...
> >>
> >> Hi there,
> >>
> >> Yes, I certainly did. The SIM card was not seated properly.
> >>
> >> In fact, I had it in the wrong way around!! This is quite easy to do
> >> - the cut-out corner of the SIM should face the TOP of the phone;
> >> once the holder is fully down you slide sideways to lock it - note
> >> the word "LOCK ->" stamped into the plastic.
> >>
> >> I think I read on IRC that a number of other people have had the same
> >> problem.
> >
> > For those confused about the orientation of the SIM or the SD card there's
> > a
> > photo on the wiki:
> >
> > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Started_with_your_Neo_FreeRunner#Installing_the_Micro-SD_card.2C_the_SIM_card.2C_and_the_Battery
> >
> > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FR_SIM_SD_open.jpg
> >
> > ___
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> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Problem in logging in freerunner through ssh

[Marcus Bauer]

Paul Bonser answered already with the fix.

I'll add the reason: whenever you connect to an unknown system, you are
asked if you want to accept the key like this:

-
The authenticity of host '192.168.0.202 (192.168.0.202)' can't be
established.
RSA key fingerprint is d8:c1:d2:ac:e9:57:9f:ed:1d:ee:b3:fa:62:04:8c:6c.
Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)?
-

and when you answer 'yes' the public key will be saved to your
~/.ssh/known_hosts file. This prevents the so called
man-in-the-middle-attack. Search google or wikipedia for more details.

If you reflash your phone, the public key changes (it is unique and
generated on the first boot) and your ssh believes there is an attack.
Somewhere on the wiki is a description how to shut this behaviour off,
but I hope nobody will ever inactivate this vigilance.

HTH, best regards,
Marcus




On Fri, 2008-07-18 at 00:40 +0530, saurabh gupta wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I followed the steps given in "Getting started with freerunner" on
> wiki to install the sample application in my free runner. I started
> the  FR normally and then connect it through a usb cable.  However
> after executing the command :
> sudo ifconfig usb0 192.168.0.200 netmask 255.255.255.0
> when  i executed "ssh [EMAIL PROTECTED]", the following error message
> occurred:
> 
> 
> @@@
> @WARNING: REMOTE HOST IDENTIFICATION HAS CHANGED! @
> @@@
> IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE IS DOING SOMETHING NASTY!
> Someone could be eavesdropping on you right now (man-in-the-middle
> attack)!
> It is also possible that the RSA host key has just been changed.
> The fingerprint for the RSA key sent by the remote host is
> 37:a6:d4:f0:35:89:7c:6f:85:c4:9a:2f:31:c5:3f:35.
> Please contact your system administrator.
> Add correct host key in /home/saurabhg/.ssh/known_hosts to get rid of
> this message.
> Offending key in /home/saurabhg/.ssh/known_hosts:3
> RSA host key for 192.168.0.202 has changed and you have requested
> strict checking.
> Host key verification failed.
> 
> =
> 
> Can anyone suggest me the problem and the solution to fix it.
> 
> Thanks ...
> 
> -- 
> Saurabh Gupta
> Electronics and Communication Engg.
> 
> 
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Re: Problem in logging in freerunner through ssh

[Marcus Bauer]

> 
> Somewhere on the wiki is a description how to shut this
> behaviour off,
> but I hope nobody will ever inactivate this vigilance.
> 
> Thanks for the explanation...
> 
> Regards...
> 

I have to add that Joachim Steigers suggestion is very okay too, as it
only deactivates the key checking for one specific host - in this case
your Neo. 'man ssh_config' gives you detailed information.


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Re: GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-07-18 at 17:05 +0200, Alexander Köb wrote:
> Hey Michele,
> 
> Michele Renda schrieb:
> > I am an Electronic Engineer but I will bring to a place where repair
> > telephone, and with 5 Euro they will do for me.
> > 
> 
> 
> if you know of a place where they do that for 5 EUR, please let me know,
> I'll bring mine there too

Its called 'Italy' ;-)


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Re: Influence of WiFi on GPS readings (200m error)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 07:54 -0700, C R McClenaghan wrote:
> I'm not sure where the fault lies, but with tangogps, I seem to get a  
> scatter plot displayed for my position. Initially the fix seems  
> accurate, then it starts to wander, although I may not be. If I am  
> moving, the trial doesn't seem to follow the route I've taken. I think  
> it may be tangogps, but I thought I'd try using my garmin bluetooth in  
> a "side by side" kind of test to see whether it is tangogps or the gps  
> radio.

tangogps just uses whatever comes from the GPS chip. No mangling
whatsoever. You can test it by just dumping the output of /dev/ttySAC1
to a logfile, convert it to GPX or KML and use it with Google maps.

The u-blox chip is quite jittery (extremly so when used with an SD card
without the fixes, be it kernel or additional capacitor).

Additionally in a city the accuracy of any GPS while driving or walking
will deviate up to 50m from your real position. Just have a look at
openstreetmap GPX traces for various cities...

The performance of the u-blox chip (without an SD card) is impressive -
apart from that flaw the hardware guys at openmoko have done an
excellent job.

Last word about the jitter: most GPS chips support different modes, one
where they flatten out the GPS signal and a 'straight' one. Have a look
into the u-blox binary protocol and you will most likely find something
there to switch - I know that SIRF has something to this account. The
Globallocate chip in the Neo 1973 does flatten by default. However, you
need to go between 10m and 20m before it starts to 'believe' that you
move. The u-blox tells you after 3-4m.

Marcus

> 
> Chris
> 
> On Jul 21, 2008, at 12:02 AM, Russell Sears wrote:
> 
> > I've had this problem when the initial fix was obtained while I'm  
> > inside
> > a vehicle (such as a bus or car) or near a lot of metal.  Going to a
> > complete stop, then moving a few times (in the car) seems to give the
> > chipset a better chance to realize it's got a bogus fix.
> >
> > -Rusty
> >
> > Yaroslav Halchenko wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> Finally I got to play with FR. Flushed todays (0721) dev image and  
> >> kernel.
> >> Running TangoGPS. While WiFi is on (WEP encrypted. wpa_supplicant
> >> powered ;)) I am having location error (never hit the right spot)  
> >> around
> >> 200-400m with reported speed from 0.5 to 20 km/h (while I am siting
> >> steadily in 1 place).
> >>
> >> When I turn WiFi Off (just on my FR, without touching access point  
> >> or a
> >> laptop from which I am writing) -- location moves to the right spot  
> >> with
> >> a bias of 10m or so.
> >>
> >> Therefore, the question: is that expected? ie that we can't rely on  
> >> GPS
> >> readings while WiFi is on?  Or from the other side: what is
> >> 'documented' precision in GPS readings while WiFi is enabled (and not
> >> actually very actively used, if used at all  since I guess TangoGPS
> >> already had those tiles from OSM downloaded).
> >>
> >> Or may be it is just my FR which behaves that way? Did anyone observe
> >> any similar behavior?
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
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> 
> 
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Re: GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 21:03 +0200, Yorick Moko wrote:
> i tried to walk with tangogps and sometimes i jumed 1-2 km in a random
> direction and kept drifting
> there were no roads in openstreetmaps for my location, could this influence 
> it?

No, that is definitely not the case. But occasionally I have seen this
behaviour too on my FR, yet never on the Neo1973s. 

One interesting observation I made is that my FR has in the beginning
often a GPS time offset 15 seconds into the future. It does so even if I
feed the time by AGPS.

It takes 10-15 minutes until this is corrected by the chip.


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Re: GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2008-07-24 at 09:42 +0300, Timo Jyrinki wrote:
> 2008/7/24 Al Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > fixed a long way back in the route. I didn't have a tile cached for the area
> > I had walked into. When I zoomed out to a scale where I did have a tile
> > cached it redrew the track, this time following the route I had walked
> > without jumping.
> 
> Actually if you do not have the area cached, it will just stay at the
> previous zoom level map tile wise if you zoom in and draw a new trace
> line on top of the old one. Ie. it is just messing up the display.

Just for info: this is fixed for the next version.


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RE: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 15:33 -0700, steve wrote:
> Of course!!! Every toolkit  is allowed.
> 
> The whole point about FSO is to free people to pick their toolkit!

The opposite is true. FSO forces you into ASU. It basically makes all
work that has been put into OM2007.2 useless.

Please stop telling these lies.


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RE: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 01:08 +0200, Kristian 'kriss' Mueller wrote:
> Am Dienstag, den 29.07.2008, 00:46 +0200 schrieb Marcus Bauer:
> > On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 15:33 -0700, steve wrote:
> > > Of course!!! Every toolkit  is allowed.
> > > 
> > > The whole point about FSO is to free people to pick their toolkit!
> > 
> > The opposite is true. FSO forces you into ASU. It basically makes all
> > work that has been put into OM2007.2 useless.
> > 
> > Please stop telling these lies.
> 
> Marcus, did I miss the irony here, or do you really believe this?

This is simply a matter of fact, not of believe. FSO is a shitty API
collection which is closely connected to ASU. Steve is a sales guy and
has not much clue of the underlying software, thus he simply repeats
what others told him.

The bad combination is NIH (not invented here) together with
almightyness thinking which results in all this religion here, making
people like you ask whether I "believe". I don't believe, I simply know.


> Why should anyone at Openmoko want to keep out other frameworks, 
> after even putting qtopia to X11?

That was mostly Trolltech's work. And apart from that you technically
can't "keep out" any other toolkit because there is Linux below and X on
top of it.

But FSO combines plenty of different things into one collection of API's
and that is how the Microsoft world works and always did and which drove
so many developers to Linux. If I use Apache as webserver I can use
Konqueror, Opera, Safari or Firefox as browser. However, Microsoft has
more than once tried to tie Internet Explorer to IIS, giving it an
advantage over other browsers. Same goes for Microsoft Office and
Windows.

To make it clear (and to prevent Wolfgang Spraul from alluding to
incorrect assumptions in case he should answer me): I welcome both
qtopia on X11 and an ETK based desktop and ETK based applications on the
phone.

Linux is all about choice (and that is what freedom means): If I don't
want to, I don't have to. On my desktop computer I have a big choice of
window managers and they flawlessly work together with a big choice of
browsers and a big choice of webservers.

For all those teletubby fanbois who are now ready to jump on me: I'm the
developer of tangoGPS and have a decent clue what I'm talking about. 

I'll ask you one question: why was there so much fighting in the free
software world about ODF versus Microsoft's OpenXML? I'll answer it for
you: because OpenXML ties people to MS Office.

FSO is the brainchild of Dr. Michael Lauer, fresh from the university's
ivory tower but lacking any industry experience. It is reinventing the
wheel and drains lots of ressources that are needed elsewhere inside of
Openmoko. It combines plenty of things out of which one is a new PIM API
based on dbus. This idea alone is worth to be mentioned every day for a
year on the dailyWTF website.

It is not about GTK or qt or ETK. It is about getting a working platform
out to users and developers. OM2007.2 was mostly there. It reminds me to
a joke:

Two fools try to escape from a lunatics hospital. There are 100
walls to climb over and so they start: 10, 20, 50, 90, 99. In
that moment says the one to the other: 'Lets go back and do the
last wall tomorrow'.

...have fun and enjoy life and start looking at the Neo what it is: a
tiny Linux computer with a GPS and a GSM modem. There is no sudden
revolution going to happen tomorrow.

Freedom is a synonym for choice. The choice for your keyboard, for your
window manager, for you applications, last not least for your gsmd.

FIC/Openmoko came to support Linux on their hardware platform in order
to give you this choice. Now it has changed into some religious
life-style thingy with phantasies of becoming tomorrows ubiquitious
lifestyle equipment. Linux definitely will be, Openmoko can be part of
it but thinking that Openmoko is the only parent is just megalomania.

Come down to earth, stop excusing hardware flaws with "open" and
"freedom", just sit down and fix them and Openmoko hardware will have a
bright future.

Best regards,
Marcus






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Re: Openmoko on Design

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 17:14 -0700, ian douglas wrote:

> And while Openmoko is working on their own framework, I have to agree
> with many other voices: knowing which platform to develop for, as a
> developer myself, is confusing.

This is exactly the point. Openmoko should be like Ubuntu: integrating
what is there and adding here and there a missing link.

Ubuntu wouldn't be there where it stands today if there would be an
"Ubuntu framework".

They are just making nice distributions and that is the key of their
success. There is no real difference between Ubuntu, Kubuntu and
Xubuntu. Gimp (GTK) will run on Kubuntu and Scribus (qt) on Ubuntu and
both do run on Xubuntu.

However, openmoko-messages will not run on "ASU".

The Framework idea is a Microsoft idea. Remember the days when you
couldn't even uninstall Internet Explorer? It was part of the
"framework".

The success of Linux is based on the freedom of choice. No frameworks
there.

Last not least: the phonekit of OM2007.2 is dbus based too and can
therefore be used with qt, etk or whatever else pleases you. This whole
argument that FSO allows "cross-toolkit" is stale.

Well, just lets go back over 99 walls...

Marcus


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Re: Openmoko on Design

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 00:35 -0700, Brian C wrote:

[snip ]

> So, I'll ask again: does
> Openmoko intend to allow direct code contributions by community members
> to core components of the ASU/FSO frameworks?

It would be better to get rid of this whole framework concept and doing
what Sean is constantly talking about: freedom. Freedom of choice.

The framework means tying the applications to the system level which is
like tying Firefox to Apache. 

No developer who is sane in his mind will want to marry a whole PIM API
just for sending an SMS. And FSO is essentially a newly invented,
unstable and immature PIM API. This is so much like Microsoft.

And there are already plenty of PIM APIs. Just use one of them, they all
work cross toolkit.

The gsmd needs a libgsmd and on top of this implement whatever dbus API
you like. This is freedom. This is choice. But by immediately glueing
the dbus API to a specific gsmd you forcefully marry all developers to
your FSO. End of freedom, end of choice.

phonekit is a lot more flexible and future proof than FSO. Due to the
nature of dbus it can potentially run side by side with any other
'phonekit'. But the whole point of FSO is to block this out.

Why do you want people to "rip phonekit out" of OM2007.2? It is not your
business anyway if you stopped development of OM2007.2.

The problem is not ETK, not qtopia, not GTK. The problem is framework
and FSO. This whole strength of Linux is separation of components. Do
one thing and do it well. Why willfully destroy this great concept of
success?

Openmoko should concentrate on kernel and driver work, power management
and working hardware and a basic set of apps. All this is mostly there
with OM2007.2 and now energy is better spend on doing thousand of little
improvements than starting again from scratch.

Marcus - developer of tangoGPS. I know what I'm talking about.




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Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld

[Marcus Bauer]

Hello John,

thanks for taking the time for writing your answer.

On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 18:38 +0800, John Lee wrote:

> Part of my current work requires me to use fso daily.  It seems
> strange that what I know seems to be different from what you know.
> 
> * fso does not force you to ASU or closely connected in any way.
>   could you please elaborate?
> 
>   fso: an open specification dbus interface (freesmartphone.org)
>+ a reference design (frameworkd, check git.freesmartphone.org)
> 
>   fso-image: fso + a reference python UI based on EFL.
> 
>   asu: a enlightenment WM for mobile phone (illume)
>+ qtopia phone stack (not based on fso)
>+ installer (EFL)
>+ diversity (gps app based on EFL)
>+ exposure (config app based on EFL)
> 
> the only similarity i can tell is EFL in fso-image.  but the fso
> itself does NOT force you to use it, just the implemented reference UI
> used it.

As you note further down, OM is going to stick with FSO. Thus unless OM
is developing ASU just for fun, the assumption that it is being ported
to FSO seems more than vaild. Please correct me if I'm wrong there.

And as you note further down, phonekit needs to be ported, otherwise the
dialer and the sms-messages apps wont work any longer. This is not a
task one can do in an afternoon. Thus on the long run FSO effectively
forces to use ASU.

>   it's easy to do another reference UI with GTK.

If Openmoko has taught one thing then the following: "easy" is nothing.
Otherwise people would buy Neo's instead of iPhones now.


> exactly what are tied together here?

gsmd and FSO dbus. The gsmd is the core part of a phone and if that is
incompatible to the current OM2007.2 one then dialer and messages stop
working. 

> for example, you can just run the ogpsd subsystem in frameworkd then
> use phonekit + gsmd to handle gsm if you want.

Which then will break ASU applications. And this is not how Linux works.
I can run Konqueror on GNOME or gimp in KDE or xfce or enlightenment.


>   on the other way
> around, the frameworkd is just a reference design, anyone can take
> libgsmd + gsmd to make the same interface on dbus.

Again: "anyone can take" is not true. Anyone can take a couple of
transistors and make an iPhone - not.


> could you explain why it's a WTF idea to have a PIM API on dbus?

1) eds has already been ported to dbus - so FSO is reinventing the wheel
2) the whole world uses libraries at application level because it
provides a nice abstraction layer (and so does EDS-dbus). the difference
between a bus and a library is similar to a water bottle and a water
pipeline in the end the both transport water but they serve different
purposes.


> there are technical reasons behind the re-implementation of gsm daemon
> but I'm not the one to answer it.

the gsmd works well. there is no technical reason.

>   I think the reason why you are
> unhappy is that OM moved away from OM2007.2. 

I'm living next to Sophia Antipolis which is the french 'silicon valley'
with 1300 companies and 30,000 employees. The common opinion here is
that OM shows erratic and unpredictable behaviour which makes it
unsuitable for consideration as development platform. 

That's simply a pity. Unless OM wants to do everything by themselves,
they need to care for external developers too in order to set up a
working eco system.


> since OM will stick with fso in the foreseeable future, I think port
> OM2007.2 app suites to fso is a logical move.

If at all I place my bet on GMAE and would not recommend using FSO but
sticking with OM2007.2 which will give a much better exit path towards
Limo, moblin etc.

>  ogpsd is there based on
> gypsy, and it should be just another backend of tangogps.

ogpsd should just offer the NMEA data on port 2947, thus keeping it
nicely network transparent. I'm not going to remove this functionality
from tangogps. Moreover the '800 pound gorilla' OM is developing its own
gps software and I'm not spending my energy competing with it. 

OM2007.2 is there, it works and I recommend everybody to develop for it.

Best regards,
Marcus




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Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 15:46 +0200, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> Am Dienstag 29 Juli 2008 15:28:56 schrieb rakshat hooja:
> > > Moreover the '800 pound gorilla' OM is developing its own
> > > gps software and I'm not spending my energy competing with it.
> > >
> > Not  to start a flame war but even I would like to know why Openmoko with
> > its scarce resources is developing its own gps software instead of
> > supporting something like Tango GPS that seems to be working so well?
> 
> Dear Rakshat, please don't let yourself be fooled by polemics, I know it's 
> hard to resist, but we should lean on to the facts.
> 
> Fact is: Openmoko is NOT developing its own gps software

Dear Dr. Michael Lauer,

four hours ago (10:38 GMT) John Lee from Openmoko wrote:

  asu [is]: + diversity (gps app based on EFL)

And from the blog of OM employee Holger Freyter:

"Certainly not the least application we are going to develop in
our GForge is diversity. This application is combining GPS, [..]
with OpenStreetmap to find your way[...]"


A quick search on Google tells that Wendy from Openmoko is writing test
reports about diversity / splinter.

If you look at:

http://projects.openmoko.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/trunk/?root=diversity

you will see that the last checkin was *four hours* (!) ago by an OM
employee.

Stating that "Openmoko is NOT developing its own gps software" is an
impertinent and blunt lie.

Dear Rakshat, please don't let yourself be fooled by lies, I know it's
hard to resist, but we should lean on to the facts.

Fact is: Openmoko IS developing its own gps software.






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Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 16:26 +0100, Tim Coggins wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > from tangogps. Moreover the '800 pound gorilla' OM is developing its own
> > gps software and I'm not spending my energy competing with it.
> >
> > OM2007.2 is there, it works and I recommend everybody to develop for it.
> 
> Marcus, these two statements appear to contradict each other. Can you
> confirm you will continue to work on tangoGPS?

tangoGPS does run on many other platforms too, i.e. eeePC, your Desktop
(Debian, Ubuntu, SUSE, Fedora, Gentooo...). Alpha, amd64, hppa, ia64,
powerpc, mipsel, s390, sparc, freeBSD-386/amd64... ;-)

So yes, I'm continuing to work on it. What I meant is that OM develops
their own GPS app (splotter/density) and once it works well and it is
installed by default people will simply go and use it. Such is life and
I'm aware of it. Last not least density is the brainchild of Steve
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and he is quite proud of it. Thus there will be
funding for ongoing development.


> In my opinion so far tangoGPS is the best and most mature application
> which I've got to run the Freerunner. It would be a great shame for
> the project to loose your leadership.

Thanks for your remarks. I'll do my best to live up to it.

Marcus


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Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 21:49 +0530, rakshat hooja wrote:

> 
> @Marcus -  My main job is to sell the Neo ( I work for a distributor)
> and tangoGPS is the application that impresses my clients (and me) the
> most (even though we hardly have OSM data for India!). I would love to
> see it continue to be developed.

Development will go on and as long as I have a Neo it will run on it
too. And I don't intend to sell my Neo ;-)

>  (Offline maps is something that people have asked me about also. If
> you have some suggestions about making that possible using OSM data
> and I am sure you will find a lot of community support to make that
> happen)

Offline maps are supported. Make sure you have a recent version of
tangoGPS installed and change the directory where the maps are stored to
some permanent place. Up to 0.9.2 this is by default /tmp and thus maps
get deleted on reboot.

You can pre-cache areas from the context menu when clicking on the map,
last item "map download".

Hope that helps, regards,

Marcus




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Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 16:47 +0200, Tilman Baumann wrote:

> Well, i like tangoGPS very much. But it is hardly a comprehensive solution.
> First it's only a tile viewer for online maps. No routing, no offline 
> maps.

I'm a huge Openstreetmap fan but until OSM is ready for routing this
will take at least five more years, probably ten. 

For all practical purposes the tile pre-caching works well. And in some
hindsights tiles are far superior to vector data. Have a look at
maps-for-free terrain or openpistemap terrain maps: no chance to keep
all this data on a mobile device and no chance to generate maps on the
fly, not even with a quad-core desktop CPU.

Actually in most use cases the pre-caching mechanism will save plenty of
storage space.


> And if gpsd is so great, ever wondered why tangoGPS has a button to 
> restart and reconnect gpsd? 

Not because gpsd crashes but because it lets you connect to a different
gpsd elsewhere on the network, i.e. if you do realtime tracking of a
Neo. Or if you simply connect to the test gpsd on 82.240.156.91. Or if
you have tangoGPS running on your laptop and you quickly and without any
hassle want to use the gpsd on your Neo.

> And why i (gta01 user) have to launch gllin via tangoGPS?

Since month there is a script that lets you start gllin on the GTA01
automatically. I haven't used this button since a long time. There was
just on user (Bwalack) who convinced me to keep the button a bit longer.
And he paid for the lunch ;-)

> tangoGPS and OM2007.2 is hardly a comprehensive solution either.

Nope. Can't compete against a TomTom or any other commercial Navi. But
then there is no solution for the Neo: the screen is too small and the
speaker too weak. Nevertheless it is quite often quite handy.

> gypsy - yes
> gpsd - no (at least not as it is, maybe as compat interface)

gpsd works well and gypsy is not network capable. Simply using your
Neo's GPS from your Laptop does not work. And especially for an
application like tangoGPS it is inherently broken: every nav-application
wants to have the raw NMEA and not some preprocessed stuff and the
concept to only be notified for certain events is nonsense because any
nav-app wants to be notified about every data coming in. This concept
just sucks CPU time.

But just my 2c. ;-)




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Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 13:37 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
> On 7/29/08 Marcus Bauer wrote:
> > On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 15:33 -0700, steve wrote:
> > > > Of course!!! Every toolkit  is allowed.
> > > > 
> > > > The whole point about FSO is to free people to pick their toolkit!
> > 
> > The opposite is true. FSO forces you into ASU. It basically makes all
> > work that has been put into OM2007.2 useless.
> > 
> > Please stop telling these lies.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> You do realize who you are talking to?

This is a childish question.

> This is person in charge of all 
> of marketing for Openmoko. If he says, "the point of something is..." 
> you should understand that he speaks for Openmoko. 

If he would be the pope, then I would understand that he speaks for the
catholic church and when he says "the point of something is..." I would
know he is infallible by definition.

But if the marketing guy (not sales guy as he pointed out) makes wrong
technical statements I have enough authority to correct them. (Simply go
over to Wikipedia and check for the word meritocracy and its connection
to open source.)

And I allow myself to counter your question: Do you realize who *you*
are talking to? 

I am part of your community and I have spent at least four full time
months of development for YOUR system. And opposed to you I am not paid.

If there is someone who should pay respect, how about you paying respect
to me?


> You can say what you 
> want about his ideas. But you have no basis whatsoever to say he's lieing.

FSO has nothing to do with "freeing people to pick their toolkit".
OM2007.2 offers the phonekit and eds (evolution data server). 

Both already allow for dbus abstraction and this whole argument is
stale. OpenedHand (the authors of OM2007.2) knew what they were doing:

"OpenedHand is, IMHO, the most talented open source company in
the world."

Those are your very own words Sean, picked from your website.

> So some respect.

I don't get your point here, Sean. Church-like respect is not what gets
things done. Having dreams is great, but then comes the point where you
need to wake up and deliver.

OM2007.2 is there, just lets use and refine it. 
The Neo Freerunner is there, just lets use and refine it. 
Since November 2006 we hear: "just a few more months".

There is no reason to wait for FSO and seeing how chaotic development
has been the past one and a half years I rather doubt that this will
ever be anything usable. It is a lot more important to get a community
of developers in here and a community of VAR (value added resellers).
And it is a lot more important to build up an ecosystem.

FSO is a questionable approach made by people with no industry
experience, fresh from university. I have to repeat that I would
strongly advise any third party developer to stay away from it.

Revive OM2007.2, spend time, energy and money for building an ecosystem
and get something out that others can build on. *Now*. Not in winter
2008 which then will be probaly summer 2009. Let your pet projects
FSO/ASU run in parallel and once they are there, the world will be
happy.

Do it like the ASUS eeePC. They didn't set out to change the world and
to compete with the MacBook Air. They have a rudimentary Linux System on
it and people love it. Many people even go on with the simple interface
while others reinstall their favourite system.

And yet ASUS started a revolution. Not because they follow their own
vision, but because they let people dream their own dreams.

Sean, on the one hand you talk about empty vessels and museums, on the
other hand fail to realize that it is already there. OM2007.2. Created
by the most talented open source company.

Staying in your metaphor of vessels I want to tell you: it is difficult
to set it on the water and let it go. Don't make the mistake and let it
sit on the dry until it is rotten. It is a venture to get out of your
dreams and into the real world.

Just lets do it.

--
As the Steve (the person without a last name, who is in charge of the
global marketing) has nice book suggestions, I recommend "The
Masterpiece" of Emile Zola. It is about a painter (who bears
biographical similarities with Paul Cezanne) who tries to paint his
masterpiece and never comes to finish it. 





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Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 16:07 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
> 
> 
> I will not reply to comments like these in detail. You would not understand.

Well, we can start calling each other names here - and basically you are
calling me retarded. That's fine with me, but next time do it off list.

As you are the CEO, I'll try to explain my motivation for my emails a
last time:

  * I have spent considerable amounts of time, doing unpaid
development for Openmoko - namely tangoGPS.
  * I feel that the cooperation between Openmoko and its developer
community can be vastly improved, based on the above experience
  * in the french 'silicon valley' (Sophia Antipolis) with 30.000
employees and 1.300 companies there is a similar sentiment

If you think everything is perfect and I just don't and wont understand,
so be it.

Have a nice day anyway, and hopefully many many Neos will be produced

  - Marcus Bauer
  -- developer of tangoGPS


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RE: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like communityapplications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Sat, 2008-08-02 at 11:25 -0700, steve wrote:
>  Bike mount?
> 
>  Or car mount?
> 
>  Guillermo how hard is that?

The rubber skin is cool:
http://www.sureda.org/Portfolio/Electronics/OpenMoko/Accesories/NeoSkin/OpenMoko-NeoSkin-StandardFrame.htm




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tangoGPS, a new gps & mapping software for the Neo

[Marcus Bauer]

Hello,

I wrote tangoGPS, a small but fast gps and mapping software for
Openmoko/Neo. 

It uses openstreetmap.org maps, downloading them on demand and caching
them. You can drag the map, zoom in and out and see your current
position and track if a gps signal is available.


In order to run it you must have gllin and gpsd installed and running. 

A working way for doing so is this gllin-script:
---
#!/bin/sh
killall ld-linux.so.2
killall gpsd
mknod /tmp/nmeaNP p
gpsd -n /tmp/nmeaNP
cd /home/root/gllin
lib/ld-linux.so.2
--library-path /home/root/gllin/lib:/home/root/gllin/usr/lib \
 /home/root/gllin/gllin.real -low 5 2>&1 > /dev/null
lib/ld-linux.so.2
--library-path /home/root/gllin/lib:/home/root/gllin/usr/lib \
 /home/root/gllin/gllin.real -periodic 1 &
---

You can check gpsd by connecting to the port 2947 and then typing "r",
which should look similar to this:

---
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ nc localhost 2947
r
GPSD,R=1
$GPGGA,091823.00,4441.889619,N,00817.008749,E,1,04,3.0,066.0,M,0.313003,M,0.0190515,*49
$GPRMC,091823.00,A,4441.889619,N,00817.008749,E,000.0,150.0,040208,,,A*53
$GPGSV,3,1,11,16,75,244,24,21,50,054,21,18,43,106,34,06,29,094,21*73
$GPGSV,3,2,11,03,45,295,,07,28,095,,22,28,156,,19,17,283,*7A
$GPGSV,3,3,11,24,11,050,,25,11,317,,29,07,094,*49
$GPGSA,A,3,06,16,18,21,6.7,3.0,6.0*3D
.
.
.
---


When this all works, you can start tangogps. Make sure your Neo is
connected to the internet so that it can download maps.



You can find a precompiled ipkg, more info and a video on
http://www.tangogps.org/


Enjoy & let me know if it is useful for you!

Marcus











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Re: tangoGPS, a new gps & mapping software for the Neo

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 10:51 +0100, Lionel Dricot wrote:
> 
> I'm highly interested in your software. I'm curious about a comparison
> with Maermo mapper. And also : how hard do you think it would be to
> port your TangoGPS to Maemo (Nokia N810) ?
> 
> Great job !

Quick answer: on a N810 you are happier with maemo-mapper, on the Neo
with tangogps. You have more buttons on the N810 and a landscape screen,
whereas the Neo uses portrait-mode. tangogps was designed to be fast and
to be usable without hardware buttons.

Before porting tangogps the code needs a good deal of clean-up but then
a port is quite straightforward. However, you will want to adapt it to
more buttons and landscape mode. 

If you want to port it, I will support you. However, for now I will
focus my work on more features - yet a future port is possible.

Marcus


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Re: tangoGPS, a new gps & mapping software for the Neo

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 08:58 +0100, jan korinek wrote:
> Very good!!! fast and working. Is there a way to predownload some maps 
> in some radius? GPRS is expensive :)

I will come up with a collection of regional tgz-files and a script for
downloading.

For now you can simply zoom and drag the map around, tangogps will store
all map tiles for offline use. 

Be default it saves maps to /tmp but you can change that in the config.
I use "/media/card/maps/osm". Note: don't add a trailing slash on the
path, there is a bug which makes tangogps crash on that.

Marcus


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Re: tangoGPS, a new gps & mapping software for the Neo

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 06:44 -0500, Christopher Earl wrote:
>  Where is the config located , stupid new unstable OM image has a new OSKB 
> with no slashes


It is gconf, thus you can use gconftool-2 to get/set the keys. Currently
there are:
- /apps/tangogps/repos
- /apps/tangogps/repo_name

more info in man gconftoll-2

Hope that helps!


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Re: Wiki - New Page - OpenMoko Community Applications

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 16:48 -0700, Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> And BTW this method would not work for finding TangoGPS, because the
> ipkg is on its own separate site.  (Why?  it must mean it's too hard
> to get a new ipkg into the regular repository, right?) 

I haven't yet asked  anybody to get tangoGPS into the offical repository
- I first want to collect user expericene feedback.

However: I like Ubuntu's idea with Universe / Multiverse. The first
being the official set of apps maintained or endorsed by Openmoko and
the second one being a wider collection of software.




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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 01:04 -0800, Michael Shiloh wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I've researched this a little, and this is what I've learned:
> 
> 1. We are still looking at a number of different batteries, so there is 
> no "final" capacity or feature set determined yet.
> 
> 2. The capacity will most likely be around 1200mA.

Hello Michael,

I guess many people would like to have a second battery - is there any
chance that you make them available? Openmoko on the Neo is now good
enough for daily use, yet it is running out of battery quickly.

Maybe one of the distributors would be happy to take a batch of them
into stock?

Can you check on this for us?


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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 10:29 -0600, Steven ** wrote:
> Search the archives.  There's some Nokia battery that is apparently a
> drop-in replacement for the Neo1973's battery.  They discovered this a
> long time ago.

The Nokia batteries are AFAIK not a drop-in replacement. According to
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Battery the Neo doesn't charge the
Nokia Batteries. Has this changed? If not, it would be great to be able
to buy a Neo battery.




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Re: Question for OpenMoko: can we please buy just a battery?

[Marcus Bauer]

For those with a soldering iron I can recommend mintyboost [1]

Works great here, two AA batteries extend the life of the Neo for about
two hours.

As it is a dumb charger you need to manually activate fast charge,
otherwise the Neo will only pull 100mA.

Make sure you test the output voltage with a voltmeter before connecting
it to the Neo for the first time. Mine gives perfect 5.02V.

[1] http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/


On Wed, 2008-02-20 at 17:31 -0800, ian douglas wrote:
> I raised this question to Michael at SCALE 6x and wanted to publicly ask 
> it as well but had forgotten until the latest list of messages on the 
> device-users list about battery life times and charging.
> 
> Is it possible to purchase *just* a battery from you guys?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ian


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Re: Any experience with iGO stowaway BT keyboard?

[Marcus Bauer]

I got it from amazon uk (qwerty) without the Dell branding and it works
like a charme. Just switch on bluetooth and then do

 hidd --search

That's it. 

If there are plenty of other BT things around you, go with

 hidd --connect BT-MAC-OF-KEYBOARD


Apart from being careful when opening and closing it, the keys work
really well, nice touch - you can type pretty fast.

Marcus


On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 11:55 +0100, David Samblas Martinez wrote:
> I was dreaming/whishing/fantasizing about owning a
> Freerunner and I finally decide that for a lot of
> funny things(make long documents, programing, be more
> geeker, etc..) it will be very recomendable to have an
> external Keyboard, but as portable as the Neo itself
> so. I was googling and I have found this affordable BT
> keyboard (in spanish layout also :))  
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150219917678&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123
> 
> I have found no any reference in linux about
> compatibility(or lack of it) so if any one has
> experience or has a Neo and want to try If it works I
> maybe buy one of this  before the phone  



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tangoGPS 0.7 is out - lots of improvements

[Marcus Bauer]

Hello community,

tangoGPS, a fast and lightweight GPS and map application using
openstreetmap is out in version 0.7.

Lots of improvements, more stability and a friend finder function. 
The tripmeter now features trip time, maximum and average speed plus
start/stop button turning your Neo into a cool sports companion!

Install is very easy, you need gpsd:

ipkg update
ipkg install gpsd

then install tangoGPS:

ipkg install http://www.tangogps.org/tangoGPS_0.7-r1_armv4t.ipk

That's it. You can start it now from the Apps menu.


More info and screenshots on:

http://www.tangogps.org/


Check it out while it is hot! As always I'm interested in your comments
and feedback.

Marcus


(xpost community and device-owners, fup set to community)




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Re: tangoGPS 0.7 is out - lots of improvements

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 01:37 +0100, "Marco Trevisan (Treviño)" wrote:
> Looking at the demos it seems to be a really good project, the support 
> for the OSM maps is good, but what about integrating support for 
> libgarmin to allow using also free and commercial garmin 
> maps (of course, waiting OSM to grow)?

I'll have a look into supporting garmin or other maps, but is for now
not on the top of my todo list - unless there is plenty more request for
this. And hey, don't *wait* for OSM to grow, but *do help* it grow ;-)

Marcus


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Re: Application idea: Bicycle computer

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 14:11 +, David Pottage wrote:

> More of a problem is the fact that the Neo is not waterproof, and if you
> put it in a waterproof case, the touch screen can't be used.

You would just need a decent sealing/joint around the touch screen. I
don't think the touchscreen itself takes any harm from getting in
contact with water.

Actually a waterproof mobile phone case would have many more takers, not
just cyclists - anybody with all weather outdoor activity would be happy
and none of the other makers of smartphones provides one!

Marcus


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Re: Application idea: Bicycle computer

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 15:27 +0100, Schmidt András wrote:
> As the Neo's screen is pressure based (not capacitive) it could be 
> possible to be used through a thin plastic layer. There are PDA bags 
> which cover the touch screen and  it still remains functional

I'd try to go for a joint:

-  
|ooo   <-- silicone joint -->  ooo|
| =TS |  
| |
|-case|

(cut through the phone)


Caveat: the joint may produce constant keypresses





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Re: GSoC 2008: Call for ideas

[Marcus Bauer]

already there, thanks to openembedded:

http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/neo1973/deploy/glibc/ipk/armv4t/sqlite3_3.5.6-r0_armv4t.ipk

On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 22:52 +0200, Ilja O. wrote:
> Sqlite port would be nice thing to have. (With C/C++/Python bindings, of 
> course)
> 
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Get it at Pulster (was: Re: freerunnter - get it over trisoft)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2008-03-20 at 14:58 +0100, Matthias Ringwald wrote:
> ok. "ripping off" might be a bit exaggerated.
[..long thread...]

Just for info, pulster is going to sell it too, so if you don't like
trisoft - go there (I'm not affiliated with them).

They still have the Neo1973 in their shop but I don't know if it is
still available:

http://www.pulster.de/engl/index.html?openmoko.htm


Anyway, I asked them by email and they told me they will sell the
Freerunner too. The forces of the market will fix the prices :)

Hope that helps to calm the storm in the teapot :-P

Marcus


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RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 16:00 -0700, steve wrote:
> I thought about spare parts a while back. The Issue is this.
> 
> 1. WHAT do I stock ( which parts)

batteries

> 2. How Many do I stock?

thousands ;-)

> 3. How do I sell them to you?

via the resellers

> 4. What will it cost?

free as in beer :°)

> 5. how do you get them?

by postal service :)

> 
> I suppose I could Offer component kits for sale. That would be the quickest
> thing for me to do. Sell the whole bag of parts; fix it your self.
> or build a business around this service.
> 
> 
> Let me think about it. Throw rotten fruit at this idea if you like.


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headphone (was: RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 18:58 -0700, steve wrote:

> But onto your specifics:
> 
>  
> 4. Headsets. It’s a standard part.  

Hi Steve,

I looked on the wiki pages but can't find the specs. As nokia headsets
with a 2.5mm plug don't work (different wiring and impedance) there are
apparently several standards for headsets.

Can you tell us which wiring the jack uses and what impedance the
earplugs have?

thanks
marcus


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Re: TomTom on Openmoko?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 14:05 +0100, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote:
> Dnia Thursday 27 of March 2008, Christ van Willegen napisał:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Sebastian Hammerl
> >
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >  as far as i know on the TomTom go devices is running Linux. So would
> > > it be possible to rip out the TomTom applikation and get it to work
> > > on Openmoko phone? It would be a great GPS application.
> >
> > Why not use tangoGPS and OpenStreetMap maps?
> 
> Because OSM maps suxx? Lack details, lack streets, lack too many things to 
> be usable?
> 
> OSM is nice idea but it is only idea. It will never replace commercial 
> maps.
> 

Hey, why even buy a Neo? Compared to any other phone it "suxx".  It will
never replace commercial phones like a Nokia N95 or and an iphone.

Or will it? :^)))

All projects start out small. Wikipedia started with one article and
Linux with one line of code.  And Openstreetmap started with a first
dot.

The coverage of the Netherlands has already commercial quality (go and
have a look) - actually it is already better than commercial data and in
the US the governments TIGER data has been imported.

Looking how OSM evolved in the last two years, I'm sure it will in two
more year cover many parts of the world better than commercial maps. 

Coming back to my first question: I hope that the Neo's will be the
better alternative compared to N95 and iphone. That's why we are all
here.

Marcus


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Re: TomTom on Openmoko?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 14:38 +0100, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote:
> Dnia Thursday 27 of March 2008, ramsesoriginal napisał:
> 
> > I am of the idea that a navigation system would be THE killer-app for
> > the openmoko, and I personally know many persons that would also pay
> > extra money to have a navigator on a phone. 
> 
> > We have various possibilities: we could try to make some sort of deal
> > with TomTom, 
> 
> Maps can be bought from TeleAtlas.

And working phone operating systems can be bought from Symbian, Apple
and even Microsoft. And yet we develop a new one!

The whole point of Open Source is the freedom (and fun) to participate.

Marcus


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OSM maps (was: Re: TomTom on Openmoko?)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 14:46 +0100, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote:

> > The coverage of the Netherlands has already commercial quality (go and
> > have a look) - actually it is already better than commercial data and
> > in the US the governments TIGER data has been imported.
> 
> Compare that with other parts of world.

Okay, check out the following links:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=33.319914,44.403477&spn=0.097541,0.160675&z=13

http://openstreetmap.org/?lat=33.3285&lon=44.3873&zoom=13&layers=B0FT

This is twice Baghdad, once Google maps and once OSM.
If you happen to live in a place where TeleAtlas gives a sh*t about, you
wont get any maps at all. If you now check google, than you will see
that TeleAtlas gives sh*t about two thirds of the world.

I can't see, why the european governments don't publish their street
data - which was already paid by the tax payers, i.e. us. Thus if Poland
has no good data, just write an email to the political parties and ask
them why not give the data to OSM?

I think this is the power of open source! The democratic empowerment of
everybody - not just people living in first world countries.

And last not least OSM starts to get there where Wikipedia already is:
map that are up to date. See this link for the new terminal in
London-Heathrow:

http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=286


And last not lest a link to mapping in second/third world countries:

http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=285


The Open Source Movement at its best!

Best regards,
Marcus


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Re: TomTom on Openmoko?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 14:57 +0100, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote:

> It was not done by community but by commercial company...
> 

But *now* it is Creative Commons licensed!

And to see what the community does within one year, here another nice
link, showing how Munich grew in an animated gif.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Image:Munich_0608to0709b_small.gif

Enjoy! - and join openstreetmap today! :-)


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submit data to OSM (was: Re: TomTom on Openmoko?)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 08:36 -0500, Tim Shannon wrote:
> Does tangogps submit data to OSM as well, because that would be great.

Yes, you can to load the track logs into the JOSM editor, give them a
quick check and upload to OSM.

>  I'd imaging that the quality of data in OSM would greatly increase
> after the Freerunner gets released.

Indeed!


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RE: Accelerometer brainstorming

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-03-28 at 12:59 -0400, Crane, Matthew wrote:

> * Detect when phone has dropped out of ones pocket, short fall by aprupt
> stop, beep three times loudly.  (that's kind of reaching..)

Better even: start self check and if it fails play HAL singing "Daisy"
while fading away (from Kubrick's Space Odyssey)

:) 


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Re: customized CPE - Android & Openmoko

[Marcus Bauer]

On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 01:25 +0800, Wolfgang Spraul wrote:

> Let me use this opportunity to talk a bit about Openmoko and Android.
> First of all we really like Android! We don't see Android as  
> competition, it is complementary to what we are doing and may help us  
> in many ways.

For all those who have missed it out, there is a company named Koolu
which is going to sell the Neo with Android. [1] CTO of Koolu is Jon
'maddog' Hall, quite a well known personality.

As another note, they just changed availability for developers from
March to June. Thus if Openmoko gets the phone out in April, they still
need more time for Android.


[1] http://koolu.com/Koolu-WE-Appliance/WE-Phone.html



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Re: Web Browser?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 11:22 -0700, Uncle Kridley wrote:
> What sort of browser will Openmoko have?  From various postings on the
> lists I get them impression that there is a (somewhat) working browser,
> but the wiki page is very sketchy.
> 
> Will/does it support the following?
> 
> *) Javascript
> 
> *) DOM
> 
> *) Cookies
> 
> In short, is it a real browser (like FF, Safari, Konqueror), or a
> half-baked thing like Blazer (the stock Treo 650 browser)?
> 
> I have an idea for a browser-based ebook reader package that uses
> javascript to do autoscroll and page-drag (like Plucker)...
> 

The current browser is based on webkit and has Javascript, DOM etc.

However, the CPU is to slow and the screen to small. Much more fun is
'links' which does have a graphics mode and simply ignores most CSS. But
it is blazingly fast and many pages are better readable with it - thanks
to the fact that most websites have no longer table based layout but a
div based. Thus pages get simply shown sequentially - one div after the
next. Even wikipedia becomes very readable on the small screen.

HTH
Marcus


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Re: tangoGPS refresh maps?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 16:16 -0700, John Locke wrote:
> Fantastic work on TangoGPS--it's seen more use than anything else on my 
> Neo... and today I just tested out the tracking feature, following 
> Marcus's instructions to upload my map to openstreetmap.org for some 
> trails in a local park... great fun!
> 
> That brings up a question, though--when my contributions reach the map, 
> how do I refresh the maps I've already downloaded? Is there a setting to 
> make TangoGPS check to see if there's a newer version of a tile? I'm not 
> set up for GPRS, and I've got quite a few tiles downloaded to the sd 
> card I'd rather not lose...

Hi John,

inspired by your mail and Sean's latest blog post, I released version
0.7.98 - which does exactly what you want :o)

Marcus


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Charger? (was: Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2008-04-14 at 08:38 +0200, Erland Lewin wrote:
> 2008/4/14, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>   1. We have a custom charger that can fast charge the phone.
>   2. Standard usb chargers will work just fine.
> 
> How long will charging the phone take with the fast charger vs. a
> normal charger?
> 
> If a standard USB charger will take on the order of 12 hours (1200 mAh
> battery / 100 mA, probably more due <100% efficiency), that is really
> borderline of what sounds acceptable, if an overnight charge won't be
> enough to fully charge the phone.

There have been plenty of discussions about this on the lists and the
great news is that the Neo can use any USB charger.

I have a Neo 1973 and use it on a daily basis. The great thing is that
you don't need any special charger, you can use any $5 charger and it
works. There is a small program out there that can pop up a dialog
whenever it sees the Neo only charging at 100mA and asking if you want
to draw 500mA.

It really is a non issue. I have a couple of those chargers for
home/office/car/travel and they all work and charge plenty of other
devices too. IMHO a great design decision to use USB for charging.
Finally there is an end coming to have all these different chargers
around.

So I just can second Steve:
"2. Standard usb chargers will work just fine."

Marcus





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Re: Charger? (was: Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update)

[Marcus Bauer]

Reading your email I wonder if there is a misunderstanding here. A "USB
charger" is not a device that gets plugged into a computer but it is
simply a device that supplies power on a USB-like plug. It can be a wall
charger or a car charger. 

If you go to ebay and type in "usb charger" you get plenty of hits
starting from a few dollars.

The only and minor issue is that these chargers don't speak the USB
protocol and thus can't say "hey, you can take as much as you want and
I'll give you as much as I have". They simply offer voltage and current
on the plus and minus lines of the USB plug.

So essentially the Neo asks "hey, can I have 500mA?" and there is no
answer. The Neo then plays safe and pulls only 100mA as to the USB
standard. But the Neo can pop-up a dialog asking you "hey guy, there is
some unknown charger, I currently take only 100mA, shall I pull more
anyway?" - and this lets you use *any* USB charger out there. Be it one
from Apple or one from eBay.

best,
marcus


On Mon, 2008-04-14 at 00:57 -0700, Lowell Higley wrote:
> I think I'm going to have to completely disagree on this one.  I
> RARELY plug anything into a computer to simply charge it.  I'd venture
> almost never.  The idea that I HAVE to plug a device into a computer
> to charge it is completely ridiculous to me. I'd bet my experience as
> a product marketer that consumers would feel similarly.  My
> expectation of a cell phone (based on precedent) is that I get a wall
> charger with my phone.  Even Apple didn't break this precedent with
> the iPhone.  You can plug it into a cradle (connecting to a system), a
> wall charger, or a vehicle accessory charger.
> 
> That being said, I don't know whether this "custom charger" is just a
> modified USB cable or an actual wall charger.  Again, based on
> precedent, my expectation was that it was a wall charger.  Thinking
> about it now I realize that perhaps that was not a good assumption to
> make.
> 
> Just my 4 1/2 cents.
> 
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 12:25 AM, Marcus Bauer
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-04-14 at 08:38 +0200, Erland Lewin wrote:
> > 2008/4/14, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >   1. We have a custom charger that can fast charge
> the phone.
> >   2. Standard usb chargers will work just fine.
> >
> > How long will charging the phone take with the fast charger
> vs. a
> > normal charger?
> >
> > If a standard USB charger will take on the order of 12 hours
> (1200 mAh
> > battery / 100 mA, probably more due <100% efficiency), that
> is really
> > borderline of what sounds acceptable, if an overnight charge
> won't be
> > enough to fully charge the phone.
> 
> There have been plenty of discussions about this on the lists
> and the
> great news is that the Neo can use any USB charger.
> 
> I have a Neo 1973 and use it on a daily basis. The great thing
> is that
> you don't need any special charger, you can use any $5 charger
> and it
> works. There is a small program out there that can pop up a
> dialog
> whenever it sees the Neo only charging at 100mA and asking if
> you want
> to draw 500mA.
> 
> It really is a non issue. I have a couple of those chargers
> for
> home/office/car/travel and they all work and charge plenty of
> other
> devices too. IMHO a great design decision to use USB for
> charging.
> Finally there is an end coming to have all these different
> chargers
> around.
> 
> So I just can second Steve:
> "2. Standard usb chargers will work just fine."
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2008-04-14 at 12:36 +0200, Andreas Kemnade wrote:
> > It would be cool also if the Y-cable needed for powered usb host was
> > included. Since I understand that the cable is kind of custom, and that's
> > one of the highlights of the neo (being able to connect usb stuff directly
> > to it), I think it should be included.
> > 
> as far as I understand, the Y-cable was needed when you want to power your
> neo at the same time you want to connect an external device to it.
> So the cable is not needed if you just want to attach an usb device.

AFAIK the Freerunner provides only 100mA. If you want to connect an
external usb-powered harddrive you need another power source.


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Re: What should be included in packaging (was: Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2008-04-14 at 10:33 -0500, Bobby Martin wrote:

> I lost the stylus (it's way too cool; if you forget it at a restaurant
> or something, you don't get a call asking if you want it back :-)

They are $3 a piece w/ shipping included if you take ten.

For example this one here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/10-x-4in1-Red-LASER-Pointer-LED-Torch-PDA-Stylus-PEN_W0QQitemZ220223455957QQihZ012QQ


No need to buy another Neo to get a new pen ;-)


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Re: Target Market (was: Re: Charger?)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2008-04-14 at 20:06 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> I have made the same observations when showing the Neo. An additional  
> feedback came from a former key account manager who had sold millions  
> of phones to Vodafone and other MNOs: it is impossible to sell this  
> industrial design to any mobile network operator because they are  
> fashion and not technology driven.

My personal view is looking at the Neo as a Linux computer and not just
as a phone - this opens a completely different perspective: as such the
Neo is an absolutely unique device. There is only one similar device
which is the N810 but it lacks the GSM modem.

I know that there are HTC devices with similar hardware specs but the
important differnc is that the Neo does have full vendor support. Thus
when the Neo is sold there runs Linux on it already. No reverse
engineering needed to get all the hardware to run properly.

It is a Linux computer that simply fits into your pocket.

Whoever just wants a phone has plenty of choice already. But looking at
it like the *world's smallest linux laptop* sheds another light on the
battery endurance too. It runs just five hours while in full use? So
what, a battery is just 20 grams - just take a couple with you. If a
stand-by time of twenty days is needed then there are many phones out
there just not smart ones.

My first computer was an AT286/16MHz with 1MB RAM and 40MB harddisk, EGA
color monitor with 640x350 resolution. No network, no internet. 5,25"
floppy for data exchange. Weight: 30kg (very sturdy case):

Now I can put into my pocket:
- 266 MHz CPU
- 128 MB RAM
- up to 8GB storage
- have USB device and host mode
- 640x480 display
- Wifi, bluetooth
- GPS and GSM, GPRS

To me this is just exciting. 
And it runs Linux instead of DOS :-P

As Sean said in the very begining of the project: this opens a new era.

Marcus







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Re: which applications are usable

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2008-04-17 at 16:41 +0200, Eildert Groeneveld wrote:

> with the Freerunner approaching I wonder which applications are currently
> in a usable status? Apparently, Steve's managed to make a phone call.
> What about SMS or addressbook? Is there a list somewhere? or does the current
> qemu download give an impression (its so slow its not really useful)

Adding to what Kevin said I can say that GPS work very well too. I hae
been playing a bit with the software stack and being a great fan of
openstreetmap I developed a little mapping software using these maps.

If you want to check it out, there are packages for your desktop too,
i.e. for Ubuntu, Debian, Suse, Fedora and eeePC.

The homepage is http://www.tangogps.org/

And I fully agree with Kevin that the Openmoko team has done a good job
in bringing a usable set of apps to us: I use my neo 1973 without major
probs on a daily basis. Actually I love the web browser links in
graphical mode. Beats everything out there ;-)

Marcus


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Re: which applications are usable

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 00:33 +0300, Flyin_bbb8 wrote:
> Marcus can you please inform me of how long the battery lasts on your
> neo 1973? on average ...

I have to second what Kevin already answered. 3-5 hours. However, the
spare batteries are just a few grams, so I don't care - they easily fit
in my pockets. Try to put three or four spare laptop batteries in your
pockets... ;-P

IMHO the whole point of a smart phone is to use the computing power -
otherwise one could just use a normal phone - they come with contact
managers and browser too.

I rather carry three of the little batteries than being annoyed by a
screen that switches to half light after five seconds and off after ten
- I don't use all that energy saving stuff. Nor do i want to wait for
the phone to come out of suspend.

That said, I'd estimate that with the freerunner you can probably get
through the day if you don't use it much. But rather get used to the
thought of carrying the spare batteries. It is a problem that all
intelligent devices have. Be it laptops or smart phones.

Best,
Marcus


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Re: which applications are usable

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 13:10 -0400, Kevin Dean wrote:
> the multi-tap input was dropped in as a
> replacement. Because this doesn't have a (-) or a CTRL or a / key,
> it's essentially useless for terminal.

It does have a / (on the +/0) but the slash does not come up in the
terminal. However, the slash *does* come for example in the SMS
application - took me some time to figure that out...

Marcus


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sunlight readable LCD

[Marcus Bauer]

Hello list,

Joseph Reeves wrote on his blog about a bicycle app for the Neo [1].

I have always wanted to add cycling / sports functions to tangoGPS but
as the LCD is mostly unreadable in sunlight I felt there is little use.
After trying it a couple of times on my bike I soon started to leave
the Neo at home.

So I wonder about three things for better outdoor use:

1) How many of you would be interested in the following hardware
mods:
 * sunlight readable LCD
 * bigger LCD 3,5"+
 * new ruggedized case or rubber shell (including a mean to nicely fix
in on a bike?)
 * waterproof (substaintially more costs)

2) How much money would you spend on it? To give you an idea: the PSP
display with touchscreen can be bought on ebay for ~25$. A case may be
~20-30$ for volumes of 100+.

3) Last question: are there hardware people interested in
this?

Please reply here on list with your interest!

Marcus

[1]http://blogs.thehumanjourney.net/finds/entry/racing_myself_a_feature_request

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Re: sunlight readable LCD

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:22:24 +0100
Joseph Reeves  wrote:
cal investment required for this? I guess I should go
> google "psp screen linux"...

>From the same company there is another LCD which is transflective and
3,5", the TD035STEE1.

http://www.summitds.com.tw/TPO/eng/business-eng/products&applications-PDA-eng.htm
Probably close in the electrical specs to the currently used LCD.

Note: the LCD module consists of the LCD and the touchscreen, this is
only the LCD.

Marcus 

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hackable:1 - new release

[Marcus Bauer]

Hello Openmoko Community,

a new release of hackable:1 is available! We have been working hard on
ironing out bugs and making it a lot more usable and I am proud to
announce that we have come a long way. Several developers are now using
it as daily phone and internet device - so we are eating our own
dogfood.

hackable:1 now offers phone functionality and sms plus a full PIM suite
consisting of contacts, calendar and todo list manager, plus a
timesheet time tracker application.

For internet use we have added a new browser optimised for small
screens and speed. It is based on webkit and supports javascript and
allows for quick access of all major functions. The Feedreader has been
overhauled and comes with a set of predefined open source feeds to
which you can add more to your personal liking.

The default keyboard is "hackers" keyboard, i.e. for stylus use
with all special characters quickly accessible. This allows for both,
quickly typing an sms as well as using the command line effectively.

hackable:1 is based on Debian Lenny thus 25.000 packages are only an
apt-get far away. Many packages especially for development are
pre-installed - compiler, linker, build tools, dev-libraries are
already there for a quick start into development right on the phone,
just in minutes.


Changes since the last release (rev3)
=

 * plenty of fixes to gsmd and phone-kit
 * finger scroll works well now, no longer unwanted application starts
 * plenty of fixes to the hackers keyboard - no more double key presses
 * fully Lenny based
 * added new browser "woosh"
 * updated feedreader
 * added calendar, todo, gallery
 * well working autorotate
 * and much, much more...


How to install it
=
hackable:1 is running from SD card, thus you can easily check it out as
it wont touch your installation in flash of the phone. Simply untar it
onto a SD card, pop the SD card into the phone and boot from it.

The steps are:
- format a 1GB+ SD card with 8MB fat and the rest ext2
- untar the two tarballs
- boot from the SD card

The detailed steps for installation are here:
http://www.hackable1.org/wiki/Installation


Technology
==
The hackable:1 apps are GTK+ and C for speed, however there is no
restriction. You like qt, e, f or g? You like python, perl or erlang?
Welcome on board, this is open source/free software and freedom is
about choice. Pick your poison! As of now the applications are a
mixture of finger-based and stylus based whichever seems to fit best.


What to expect
==
There will still be bugs. Some apps are not fully optimized for
usability. But it is usable as phone, as PDA and as internet device.
It is a community project, you can easily join, voice your opinion and
add code and applications. The R&D department of Bearstech -the french
distributor of the Openmoko Freerunners- is sponsoring the development,
Bearstech is using it as base for various VAR projects and
subsequently Bearstech wants to give back and is commited to the free
software community.


What does it look like in action

Go to youtube and see yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Izww_4Z421g


Have fun!

  Marcus - on behalf of the hackable:1 team and community



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Re: hackable:1 - new release

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 05 May 2009 13:46:49 +0300
Timo Juhani Lindfors  wrote:

> What debian repo should I add to sources.list to get the source code
> of woosh? Neither

Currently only the tarball is available. You can get it from the woosh
wiki page:

http://trac.hackable1.org/trac/wiki/WooshBrowser 

Once I have a few hours of time I will clean and restructure the source
and add it to svn. Most wanted features are finger scroll and text zoom.

Marcus

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Re: hackable:1 - new release

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 05 May 2009 15:20:44 +0300
Timo Juhani Lindfors  wrote:

> Marcus Bauer  writes:
> > Currently only the tarball is available. You can get it from the
> > woosh wiki page:
> 
> That has several files that are autogenerated with the glade
> tool. They are not modifiable source code. 

Yes, they are :-) It is just a hint for a developer using glade to not
edit those files because glade simply overwrites them again.

But naturally you can modify them. It is like if there was a comment
"Go and buy a bottle of Coke, now!". You wouldn't have to do that ;-)

There was a discussion on debian-legal not long ago about this very
comment from glade and consensus was that it has no importance.


Regards,
Marcus



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Re: hackable:1 - new release

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 5 May 2009 05:56:03 -0700 (PDT)
Tha_Man  wrote:

> There is however one thing that prevents me from using my FR as a
> daily phone (based on rev4-preview):
> http://trac.hackable1.org/trac/ticket/52 ticket #52 . 
> 
> Can you tell me if this bug is well know, if it is already fixed in
> rev4-rc1 or planned to be fixed in the near feature? 

We'll have a look into it this week as some of the devs are meeting.
With a bit of luck it gets squashed in the next ten days.

Marcus

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Re: hackable:1 - new release

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 5 May 2009 15:09:25 +0200
Vinzenz Hersche  wrote:

> yeah, this release rocks! :D
> 
> just one question.. is it possible to import  vcard and ics-files?
> if it is, its my new favourite :)

We haven't yet looke into it, but it is based on e-d-s and thus there
are already ics and vcard files around and I'm sure there are apps out
there for syncing with evolution.

Otherwise probably a bit of shell/perl/python will do the trick.

Look in ~/.evolution/ for the .ics files journal.ics, calendar.ics,
tasks.ics. The evolution data server must be stopped when you edit them
or it may overwrite them later on.

HTH
Marcus



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Re: hackable:1 - new release

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 06 May 2009 08:23:30 +0200
Olivier Berger  wrote:

> Then, I'd very much suggest to update
> http://www.hackable1.org/wiki/Downloads which still points to rev3
> AFAICT.

fixed. thanks for the hint

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Re: Visit at Openmoko

[Marcus Bauer]

A *BIG*, no a *HUGE* thank you to all the openmoko employees who worked
these last years without ever being in the spot light but nevertheless
doing a great job!!!

All the best for your future, Openmoko would not have been possible
without you. You have opened new horizions and I am sure the future
will prove the concept was right but ahead of its time...

Thanks again for a great job,

  Marcus Bauer, tangoGPS




On Tue, 26 May 2009 01:03:40 +0800
Sven Klomp  wrote:

> On Tuesday 26 May 2009 00:46:27 Thomas White wrote:
> > A not unimportant snippet of information is missing:
> > 
> > How long ago was this?
> 
> I visited them yesterday (25th).
> 
> ___
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Re: tangogps + geocaching (DL-link inside)

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 28 May 2009 17:05:06 +0200
Stefan Fröbe  wrote:

> Don't get me wrong here:
> I still think Marcus as the developer of TangoGPS is the best person
> to discuss all this with - I do not intend to fork or maintain any
> separate version, nor do I recommend to do so by any means!

Yep, I have been a bit busy lately but am still actively working on
tangoGPS. The additions from Stefan are really nice and fun to play
with and are pretty much on the top of my list.

Those of you who have been following the development of tangogps know
that I barely announce things before they are there. I rather sit down
and do it. Just have a look how many projects are on sourceforge with
big announcements and after years they are still pre-alpha...

I have spent a lot of time too on looking for hardware - something
sunlight readable and bigger than 2,8". Just today came the catalog
from digi-key, 2600 pages of electronics parts. Not yet sure which kind
of mods are possible.

In any case, I am alive and development goes on and I am currently
working through my mail back-log ;)

Stay tuned,
Marcus


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google earth - [was: Re: Another simple GPS+GPRS idea]

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2006-11-27 at 12:44 +0100, Alessandro Iurlano wrote:

> I know that google provides API for the search engine. Are there APIs
> for google earth maps too?

Slashdot ran yesterday a story about this:

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/25/225256
http://gaia.serezhkin.com/

Basically the same goes for map data. You may have a look into
openstreetmap.org. 

You may ask Sean about availability of maps for the Neo1973 (a quick
search in the ML-archives gives no hits).

Hope that helps.

Marcus


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Re: no market - my 2 cents

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2006-12-22 at 01:59 -0800, roberto previdi wrote:

> I don't think this phone will have a market before to 
> have at least the connectivity, at most a camera too..

As this "no market"[1] argument has shown up so many times on the list,
have a look again at the specs and you'll see two outstanding and unique
selling points:

  * VGA-display
  * GPS

for a remarkably low price of 350$. The hw6515 costs twice as much and
offers only 240x320 screen and is way bulkier because it is a PDA and
not a phone in the first place.

This cool hardware is combined with the absolutely magic power of
openembedded.org and spiced up with a partnership with funambol not to
forget a dash of great developers and a quite visionary product manager.

Imho that are the ingredients for a huge success.

Last not least google is looking for hardware for their upcoming
google-phone. Just ask Sean if they (FIC) are already in talks with
them.


As to connectivity: the decision about bluetooth hasn't been made yet
and otherwise you can still connect your phone via USB. A camera may be
integrated in future models; FIY: FIC already has products with cameras.


Marcus


[1] according to the list the phone needs the following specs to be
successful on the market (cum grano salis - take it with a grain of
salt):

  * camera with minimum 5 megapixels
  * wifi, bluetooth
  * at least 4x faster CPU
  * minimum support for two SIM cards
  * powered USB host mode
  * plenty of FPGAs
  * two 3.5mm jacks
  * many more buttons
  * 2 GB flash
  * two cables dangling out in order to use is as oszilloscope
  * some more FPGAs, more wifi, more bluetooth :)
  * external SD-card slot, better: CF-card slot

all this with not more than 5mm thickness and 100g weight and 500h
stand-by or it will inevitably and miserably fail in the market ;)

Merry chrismas *<:o)


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Re: Some clarifications for the AGPS/SUPL/OMA threads in the OpenMoko list.

[Marcus Bauer]

On Mon, 2006-12-25 at 14:36 -0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
> These are comments from a Global Locate Engineer (NOT ME) from various
> threads about GPS and related functionality. Hope this will help answer some
> of your questions.

Not really.

A GPS chip needs three things to aquire a fix:

  * almanac
  * ephemeris
  * time synchronisation (~1us)

With the quality and performance of today's gps chipsets everything else
-like mobile station based/cell information- is pretty unimportant.


The almanac contains the coarse position data of the satellites and is
*good for weeks*. Size is 37.500 bit and gets sent by all satellites in
30sec chunks at 50bit/s. Downloading from one satellite takes 12.5
minutes. The almanac is freely available on the internet.

The ephemeris data is the precise position data of 1500 bits length.
Each satellite sends only its own at 50 bits/s thus repeating it every
30 seconds. The ephemeris data ages rapidly and is valid only for *two
hours*. It can be pre-computed with good quality for ~7 days. The
current data plus 6 hours into the future is freely available on the net
too.

The time synchronisation is an iterative process mostly based on the PRN
and happening inside the gps chip once a first coarse position is known.
Takes some seconds but precise specs are company secrets. GSM -as
opposed to CDMA- supplies only coarse time information, thus is no help.


Now what one wants to have is a short time to first fix (TTFF). A
current chipset like the Sirf starIII takes on average:

  * ~0.1 sec - almanac, ephemeris cached in chip and time
synchronised
  * ~8 sec - almanac, ephemeris cached but time not synchronised
  * ~45 sec - no almanac, no ephemeris, no time; first fix only
+/-150m precision. TTFF may go up to several minutes when
indoors.

All the OMA SUPL stuff is completely irrelevant here because it is about
the transport between whosoever and the phone but not between the phone
and the chip. I don't care about OMA because the data is available
elsewhere for free and I get it easily into the phone i.e. over http /
tcp/ip / gprs|USB-net

Sirf however has published a reference guide [1] for the binary protocol
of its chips which already allows to preload almanac and ephemeris into
the chip - but unfortunately we are stuck here with the Global Locate. 

Actually all these questions of preloading almanac and ephemeris are
handled in the gpsd which will be closed source. With all the openess of
the neo-plattform it is a pity not to have a Sirf or any other
performant chip with open protocol specs.

Global Locate uses LTO[tm][2] as selling point. However it doesn't need
overly much computing power to precompute the ephemeris and the software
to do so and the data of plenty of reference stations is available on
the net. LTO is a nice convenience for people who plan a week long trip
into the wilderness without any network access and can't wait out there
45 seconds TTFF.

Indoor fixes are possible with the Sirf starIII chip too, it has the
same sensitivity specs of -159dbm as the GL hammerhead; -159dbm is
~1000th of the clear sky signal strength of the GPS satellites.

It would be interesting to know why GL was chosen in the first place.

> > free routing possible, but what is the protocol of the AGPS data
> > that the globallocate chip expect?
> 
> "Very standard stuff: the SUPL specification by OMA.  Works with any
> standard SUPL server. OMA and SUPL are easily googled for more info."

Again the question is how to get it into the chip and not into the
phone. Partially the question goes to the openmoko team writing the
gpsd.

Marcus

[1] Sirf Reference guide, "2-7 set almanac", "2-18 set ephemeris"
http://www.usglobalsat.com/downloads/SiRF_Binary_Protocol.pdf

[2] LTO is GL's trademark and stands for long term orbit, meaning
pre-computed ephemeris.


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AGPS or: Global Locate's Marketing debunked

[Marcus Bauer]

The neo1973 will come with a Global Locate GPS chip. In the following I
will try to explain the disadvantages of that situation.

First thing to keep in mind is that all the tomtom PDAs do pretty well
without any "A-GPS" at all!!

So what is that A-GPS good for?
---

There are two points:

  * TTFF - time to first fix after cold or warm start
  * precision of position during the first minutes of navigation


How is that achieved?
-

This is achieved simply by preloading the GPS-chip with the ephemeris
data, meaning that a satellite can immediately be used for getting a fix
at the moment it comes in sight instead of waiting 30secs while
downloading the data.

The ephemeris data contains the precise position of a satellite and
outdates within two hours. However it is only 1500 bits long (times 12
satellites over your head) so can be quickly downloaded via i.e. GPRS.

The ephemeris data is available here:
http://igscb.jpl.nasa.gov/components/prods_cb.html

The SiRF chipsets do allow for preloading the data and the protocol
specs are published by SiRF, however nobody has even bothered yet to
write the few lines of code to extend the gpsd (gpsd.berlios.de). 



Now what's the problem with Global Locate?
--

The problem is that the protocol specs for communicating with the GPS
chip are only available under NDA. Their whole marketing is based on
this and they never mention "ephemeris data". This allows them to
paraphrase it over and over again and pretend they have something
unique.

Some examples (taken from
http://www.globallocate.com/NETWORK/NET_WWRN_frameset.htm ):

Full GPS-constellation data 
Satellite assistance data provided for 100% of satellites.

-> means: they have ephemeris data

Strategically located 
Each GPS satellite is monitored by several RSs at all times to ensure 
no coverage gaps.

-> means: nothing. just marketing blurb. Their 'WWRN' of RSs (worldwide
network of reference stations) is what others call CORS (continously
operating reference stations) http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/CORS/

No missing satellites 
Unlike regional RS solutions that leave the handset with a
critical shortage of assistance data, WWRN data includes
assistance data for rising satellites.

-> means: they have ephemeris data (we heard that already, didn't we?)

Highest likelihood of E911/E112 location fix 
Important in the typical obstructed environment, handset is
assured of having assistance data for all visible satellites.

-> means: they have ephemeris data (we heard that already, didn't we?)

Assistance data always current 
Changes in orbital navigation data or health status broadcast by
the satellites is processed in real-time by the WWRN.

-> means: they have ephemeris data (oh, really?)

Minimizes requests to A-GPS server 
No additional network assistance required as new satellites come
into view.

-> means: they have ephemeris data (it starts to get boring)

Shared infrastructure 
Full GPS-constellation data enables single A-GPS server to
support handsets in multiple networks worldwide.

-> means: they have ephemeris data - yaaawwnnn

and on and on and on like this, paraphrasing over and over again that
they have ephemeris data. They are selling H20 in bottles.


* Conclusion *
==

Global Locate: You should just publish the specs for the binary protocal
of your chip. We do the rest for ourselves.


If they don't do that, please Sean, follow your Mantra for an open
plattform and substitute their chip with a more open one.

A word of advice for Global Locate: actually the OSS community likes
underdogs and compared to the market leader SiRF you are exactely that.
But don't show up as arrogant jerks on mailing lists pretending to be an
engineer but talking like a marketing droid.

Marcus








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Re: AGPS closed source drivers = DRM for public data

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2006-12-27 at 09:54 +, Richard Franks wrote:

> But let us not make things more difficult and ugly by antagonising
> the very companies working with FIC on this project in the first
> place. I don't see how that can be constructive.


Global Locate is actually creating RIAA's and MPAA's dream of a DRM:
they prevent you from getting publicly and freely available ephemeris
data (and that is what A-GPS means) into the chip.

They want to lock-in the users of their chips into their "OMA SUPL" AGPS
servers. They deny you the right to use your own solution.

Closed source drivers are a nuissance on an open platform especially
when open alternatives do exist.

It is a question of community pressure to get FIC either using a
different chip or to get Global Locate to open the protocol specs.

The good thing is that Sean is an all pro open guy :)


Marcus



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Re: AGPS closed source drivers = DRM for public data

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2006-12-27 at 14:14 +0100, Gabriel Ambuehl wrote:

> Considering that we have an userland application that drives the chip, 
> shouldn't it be relatively straight forward to reverse engineer the protocol? 

That takes time and with every new version of the phone the game starts
all over. Closed source driver have always been a pain on Linux and
still are.

> But of course it would be better if Global Locate would simply provide it...

Global Locate is certainly afraid of patent infringement. The market
leader SiRF holds lots of patents around gps chipsets and regularly sues
other chipmakers. And just by chance it happens that they sued Global
Locate the other day. On the 18th of December to be exact.

Most likely this battle will be settled by Global Locate paying license
fees to SiRF. Global Locate should just make sure that the deal includes
the communication/protocol with the chip. But the will only do so if the
market demands for that.

As FIC is planning to buy 100.000 of the chips per month they have
enough buying power to communicate to GL that open specs are indeed a
selling point.

As the open source community supports FIC, so can do FIC in return. We
just need to push them a little bit.



Marcus


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Re: Real Neo1973 photo / Neo delayed...!?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2007-01-11 at 15:48 -0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
> On 1/11/07 3:38 PM, "Koen Kooi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >> If there's enough interest, it might be cool to just sell the mapping data
> > 
> > Raster or vector, and with or without address data?
> 
> This would be the raw stuff that companies like TomTom, Navigon, and
> Destinator, parse. I don't even know if they will let us license this for an
> totally open phone. We use it on other projects inside FIC.
> 
> I've used Maemo Mapper but I don't know about the internals. Does anyone
> know if this would be useful? It really would be neat to have a open source
> engine with real (legal) mapping data.

Maemo Mapper uses Raster maps.

There is a project called openstreetmap.org in order to create free/open
maps. For the quality of the output look here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Image:CentralChester.png

Creating maps of your own area is easy. Go to
http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html , create a login, choose your
area and click edit. There is a Java Applet with Yahoo sat imagery that
lets you insert nodes, segments and streets.

Its a bit like wikipedia - if enough people help there will be soon
enough maps.

Apart from that one can use vmap0 data (freely available) to create maps
till ~1:1.000.000 paper equivalent which is at least good enough for
navigation from village to village.

Marcus


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Re: Phone for the blind

[Marcus Bauer]

On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 02:48 +0530, Warren Noronha wrote:

> Is there a text to speech feature planned. 

festival (flite) is in openembedded, thus most likely it will be
available in openmoko very soon, too. The same goes for sphinx (speech
to text).

> I ask this cause a while back a friend of mine
> who works with the blind, was looking out for phone to for his
> students (who are blind)

SUN has been doing lots of a11y (accessibility) work on GNOME. Imho the
a11y group sits in Ireland. I'm sure they'd like to see the fruits of
their work on a phone as well.

As Terrence Barr from SUN is hanging out on the list, maybe he could
make a contact? I think a fully accessible phone would just be an awsome
proof of the strength of open source!

If you need some names from the a11y SUN people, just ping me.

Marcus


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Re: OpenMoko-ID

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2007-01-23 at 09:23 -0500, Richard Franks wrote:
> Will we have something like this? Do we want something like this?
> 
> It could be useful for contact-sharing, authentication, access to
> services on the OpenMoko site, keeping track of gaming friends,
> referencing file/data resources on the users home 'or otherwise'
> machine etc.

What about using openID?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID

Marcus




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Re: Free Your Phone

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 08:42 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:

> "Exploit" used in the context of people, is something not to be taking
> lightly. I _really_ don't want to come across as guy trying to exploit
> others for my personal benefit. Creating this project was not for
> exploitation. I sincerely want to see an open phone because I think it will
> benefit many people, including myself.

Linus Torvalds once jokingly said: "I am your god".

"god" is probably a bit exaggerated, but I'm sure a majority here agrees
to say: 

You are our hero!


Keep up the great work.

Marcus


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