Re: Recruiting Agents
Quoting Faustine ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 John wrote: (snip) I think this conversation is like many going on around the country, and shows how recruitment of agents is being done. We'd like to publish such accounts, anonymized or not. Aside from the usual concerns people might have about telling you what they know, unfortunately, your messages this past week just added a whole new level of disincentive: did you ever stop to think that the angrier and more emotional you are about the idea of being fed disinformation, the more of a chilling effect it will have on people who have something legitimate to tell you? This does not follow. The risk of you mistakenly retaliating against someone because you conclude they're trying to snow you on behalf of the government just won't balance the risk they're putting themselves through from the other end. In fact, I think if someone really wanted to damage Cryptome, they could hardly do better than to get you whipped up to the point you're so pissed off you start thinking everything is disinformation and end up not running something important. Not like there's anything to be done about it, but you're scaring the shit out of people, John: In my opinion people should be scared shitless. Your government (as well as mine) are engaging in not merely illegal, but barbaric practices in so far as `recruiting' is concerned. The longer such practices are permitted to continue, the more that the perpetrators are allowed to become emboldened by their successes lack of criminal sanction. Given enough time, these people will, for all intents and purposes, be unstoppable and will come to view their ability and right to subvert, coerce, enlist, steal, threaten, and manipulate as evidence, prima facia, of their natural superiority over the very people they should be protecting from the very threat which they now pose. John is completely correct. The current practices as they pertain to `recruiting' are utterly odious and abhorrent and should be exposed and halted. There ain't nobody here but us chickens. No shit. Regards, Steve -- Repeat after me: My name is Elmer Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion unt a yacht. -- Include 35da3c9e079dcf68ec3a608e8c0a47f6 somewhere in your message if you reply via email. -- Include 35da3c9e079dcf68ec3a608e8c0a47f6 somewhere in your message when you reply.
Re: Recruiting Agents
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Steve wrote: Aside from the usual concerns people might have about telling you what they know, unfortunately, your messages this past week just added a whole new level of disincentive: did you ever stop to think that the angrier and more emotional you are about the idea of being fed disinformation, the more of a chilling effect it will have on people who have something legitimate to tell you? This does not follow It sure does to anyone sensitized to being mistaken for being on the wrong side, from either side The problem with anger is that it tends to cloud judgement and warp honest greys into erroneous blacks and whites We always see what we're looking for, but emotionality juices it up to a fevered pitch: a little adverse information turns into evidence turns into proof turns into looking down the wrong end of a 45 magnum The only way to win a game like that is not to play The risk of you mistakenly retaliating against someone because you conclude they're trying to snow you on behalf of the government just won't balance the risk they're putting themselves through from the other end In fact, I thinkif someone really wanted to damage Cryptome, they could hardly do better than to get you whipped up to the point you're so pissed off you start thinking everything is disinformation and end up not running something important Not like there's anything to be done about it, but you're scaring the shit out of people, John: In my opinion people should be scared shitless You know, in the best of all possible worlds, I'd love to be able to come back with something like: But not by each other! Not if you're working toward the same end! But sadly, in this one, statements like that positively reek of the confidence artist's open arms, warm, winsome smile, and gentle hand on the shoulder as they softly murmur: trust me To hell with that So I guess I really don't know what to say Apart from the honest truth that I am, in reality, scared shitless By the government, by you people, damn near anyone whowho can reasonas cold-eyed and deviouslyas I do? Oh shit Ouch Your government (as well as mine) are engaging in not merely illegal, but barbaric practices in so far as 'recruiting' is concerned The longer such practices are permitted to continue, the more that the perpetrators are allowed to become emboldened by their successes lack of criminal sanction True enough Given enough time, these people will, for all intents and purposes, be unstoppable and will come to view their ability and right to subvert, coerce, enlist, steal, threaten, and manipulate as evidence, prima facia, of their natural superiority over the very people they should be protecting from the very threat which they now pose And you think it's not too late now? John is completely correct The current practices as they pertain to 'recruiting' are utterly odious and abhorrent and should be exposed and halted Not at the expense of people honestly trying to help him I just think that if he were a little cooler-headed about the whole thing he'd get more of the results he's really after Just my bias, that's all ~Faustine *** He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself - --Thomas Paine -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPsdk version 171 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc and its affiliated companies (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version) iQA/AwUBPH/mAfg5Tuca7bfvEQLP7QCeMjt81qhjPNZ0rt9Sg0Emule0EgsAoJVm 3kRMaV5ienCfySotqpX1/Yjx =WgRF -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Recruiting Agents
At 08:43 AM 2/28/02 -0800, John Young wrote: You know, he said, I'm very troubled by what my company is doing, but I think in times of danger we all have to do what we can to protect the nation, and I think you should get in touch with the authorities to be sure information you get is okay to publish No, I said, that's not for me, All purpose response to recruitment or general national defense arguments: I think that it's important to defend myself, my family, and my community In fact, I think it's so important that I'm not comfortable delegating it to a collective monopoly None of us can be sure exactly what will be needed to defend us from our enemies Public and private authorities thought for years that the crew and passengers of highjacked planes should submit meekly to their highjackers This turned out to be a bad mistake Maybe the Feds know best, maybe someone else knows best, maybe I know best Neither the Feds, nor someone else, nor I can be sure what's the best way to defend our community in a complex strategic and tactical environment It is possible, for example, that the best way to defend our community is for all of us to carry weapons at all times and kill any terrorists we happen to encounter Or maybe not Small-group personal attack, was the method used by the passengers of UA93 to stop its use as a weapon of war In any case, many different approaches are possible I think that it's important that we try all sorts of different tactics to defend our community Time will tell which are best So the government will deploy its strategy and tactics and the rest of us will deploy ours I call it Open Source Community Defense (OSCD) DCF Back in April of '75, my 5th great-grandfather Captain William Frizzell defended his community against an Evil Empire by grabbing his rifle and marching from Woodstock, Massachusetts (now Connecticut) to Cambridge to protect its magazine from British gun and powder grabbers
Recruiting Agents
Dell's admission of vetting customer use of its products on behalf of domestic and national security, raises the issue of who else is doing that About ten days ago I got a telephone message from a person who claims to work for a major ISP as a sysadmin This person had previously disclosed the ISP's cooperation with federal authorities to run a nationwide surveillance system from a central hub of the ISP, claiming that the system was set up under a memorandum of understanding when the ISP was bought by a foreign corporation We've published this allegation on Cryptome We returned the call and talked about twenty minutes with the person, who said that surveillance of the Net is increasing rapidly over what he had said earlier Then came a pitch that I get on board by vetting information sent to Cryptome with federal authorities if I thought there might be a threat to national security The pitch got intenseThe person asked if I had criminal background I said no Did I believe the US had enemies I said yes Did I believe it was my responsibility to protect the nation I said maybe Was it not wise to report threats to the nation to authorities? I said no, it was wise to report them to the public so it could protect itself But, he said, don't you think the threats should be checked with the authorities first? No, I said, it is not for me to decide what is a threat and what is not, that my task is to make information available and let readers decide Wouldn't you like to boost your authority, he said, by having it supported by official authority? I said no, that I did not want authority, that such authority is widely available for those who want it from responsible sources Instead, I said, what is needed is more information not filtered by authorities or responsible sources Don't get me wrong, he said, I admire what you're doing on Cryptome, and I wish I had your courage Thanks, I said Still, he said, I think it would be a good idea for you to establish an ongoing relationship with the authorities so you don't get in trouble No, I said, that is definitely not something I want to do, for if I did that it would be a betrayal of Cryptome readers You know, he said, I'm very troubled by what my company is doing, but I think in times of danger we all have to do what we can to protect the nation, and I think you should get in touch with the authorities to be sure information you get is okay to publish No, I said, that's not for me, what is needed in times of danger is more information about how to protect yourself, and in times of danger authorities are often a threat as great as what they warn about How can you be sure of that, he said, I think you need to talk to the authorities to be sure you know what the threats are and what you are doing is okay No, thanks, I said Someday, he said, I hope I have your courage, but now I have to think about my job Agreed, I said, you should do nothing that will put you in danger, don't jeopardize you job and your family However, he said, I want you to think very carefully about arranging to check with the authorities about information to be published on Cryptome Look, I said, the authorities have more than adequate means to keep track of information going on Crypotme and they don't need my help But you need to protect yourself, don't you see, to be sure that you are not entrapped by information sent to you for that purpose Agreed, I said, but we were told soon after setting up Cryptome to expect entrapment efforts, so we do, and the reason we don't claim authority is to be sure readers know they have to protect themselves in the same way we do But wouldn't you like to be protected by the authorities, to advocate to your readers that they do the same? No, I said, that is the role of authorities and responsible publishers, not Cryptome - I think this conversation is like many going on around the country, and shows how recruitment of agents is being done We'd like to publish such accounts, anonymized or not
Re: Recruiting Agents
Quoth John Young: Did I believe the US had enemies I said yes Did I believe it was my responsibility to protect the nation I said maybe As John has said, many of the enemies of the US claim to legitimately represent it Many are found along the Potomac And what John is doing *is* protecting the nation Esp from those domestic enemies of the constitution
