Re: internet radio - broadcast without incurring royalty fees

[James A. Donald]

--
James A. Donald:
> > my experience with downloading TV shows suggests that
> > piracy is working better than ever.

Major Variola
> This wasn't piracy, it was time-shifting.

When the ads were deleted, it ceased to be time shifting.

In any case, the point I intended to make was that "Buffy" was
one hundred times bigger than a typical MP3, yet the software
and hardware had no problems.

If the internet can handle one hour tv shows without working up
a sweat, digital convergence is getting real close.

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 XYP6QY+S9r3ndihIQTukA67fRiwrn6l5ZpkvrArT
 4M1UwSPjw71Nqox9g8XKDugMA/eyyeDoNJSWRDhBZ

Office of Hollywood Security, HollSec

[Tim May]

On Friday, October 25, 2002, at 10:53  AM, David Howe wrote:


at Friday, October 25, 2002 6:22 PM, bear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was seen to
say:

The implication is that they have a "hard problem" in their
bioscience application, which they have recast as a cipher.

The temptation is to break it, *tell* them you have broken it (and 
offer
to break any messages they encrypt in it just to demonstrate) but dont'
tell them how you did it.
That would probably be even more fustrating for them than the problem
was :)


(This post applies mainly in the U.S. The U.K. may be different.)

Yes, but check very carefully whether one is in violation of the 
"anti-hacking" laws (viz. DMCA). By some readings of the laws, merely 
trying to break a cipher is ipso fact a violation.

(And by arguments that are admittedly more of a reach, "not telling 
them how" could be interpreted by some lawyers and courts as extortion.)

Such is our legal system now that the Bill of Rights has been 
eviscerated in the name of the Office of Hollywood Security, HollSec.


--Tim May
"They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, 
and it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers 
actually read it, but the bill definitely was not available to members 
before the vote." --Rep. Ron Paul, TX, on how few Congresscritters saw 
the USA-PATRIOT Bill before voting overwhelmingly to impose a police 
state

Re: internet radio - broadcast without incurring royalty fees

[Major Variola (ret)]

At 08:32 PM 10/24/02 -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
>Napster clones, kazaa, gnutella et al. rely on end-users to upload
stuff. These
>end users simply have no bandwidth available for that. Cheapo DSL lines
have
>hundred or few hundreds of kbit/sec unguaranteed upload capacity. No
one is
>going to pay T1 to serve free stuff in breach of copyright laws.

What stops a P2P client from downloading blocks of a file
from multiple users?   Ie, "bandwidth aggregation" or
"channel bonding"?  The download from each is slow (due to
b/w/ asymmetry) but you're downloading from lots of them.

>While there always will be pathological cases that will spend tens of
hours
>online to get few mp3s for free (that is, until local telco decides
that flat
>rate is no more viable), for most napsters are unusable.

You don't know Jack (Valenti).

Usable serving costs
>money, is stationary and therefore taxable. Until all 802.11bs automesh

>networks get connected independently of "internet".

1. Battery life
2. It has a niche, but although more robust technically and socially,
a mesh isn't as efficient for long haul stuff as a buried fiber.
Although we welcome further analysis/bizplans.

Re: internet radio - broadcast without incurring royalty fees

[Steve Schear]

At 11:21 PM 10/24/2002 -0700, "James A. Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

--
On 24 Oct 2002 at 20:32, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> Napster clones, kazaa, gnutella et al. rely on end-users to
> upload stuff. These end users simply have no bandwidth
> available for that. Cheapo DSL lines have hundred or few
> hundreds of kbit/sec unguaranteed upload capacity. No one is
> going to pay T1 to serve free stuff in breach of copyright
> laws.
>
> The net result is - and anyone can try it for themselves -
> that average success rate is less than 40%, the speed is
> miserable - most of the time it takes hour or more for 5-6
> minute mp3, and then you need to be lucky so that content
> matches the title.

I am a really big fan of "Buffy".  A cute chick, lots of
violence and killing, and a bit of sex, what more can one ask
for in a TV show?   Recently due to family crisis, I missed a
couple of shows.  So, using usenet, I downloaded the two one
hour shows that I missed.





I have never downloaded a tv show off the internet before.
Everything just worked, no fuss, unlike some encryption
programs I could mention.


The RAR/PAR file format combo is a simple and effective way to publish 
large files on Usenet.  It overcomes file segment loss problems and is 
relatively easy to use.  If someone were to automate this, so users 
wouldn't need to pay attention to file details at all, it would be a big 
improvement.  Right anyone downloading music or videos from Usnet still has 
to take a bit of time to learn about the file transport technology, obtain 
and learn to several new programs (WinRAR, SmartPAR and a specialized 
newsgroup reader, e.g., NewsBinPro) before they stand a good chance of 
getting the content they desire.

Usenet could potentially solve the bandwidth problem for music 
broadcast.  The standard retention time for Usenet content is 2 days.  If 
stations upload songs in their upcoming playlists it would allow listeners 
to download them ahead of time and synchronize with the playlist time.  I 
think ISPs and content distributors would much prefer replacing real-time, 
expensive, unicast streaming with cheap Usenet store-and-forward.

The same service could be commercially offered for popular broadcast 
content (e.g., weekly news programs), which is not time critical, now 
streamed at high cost to both publisher and ISP.

steve

Some non-DRM uses of TCPA/Palladium

[Ken Hirsch]

I've thought of some non-DRM uses of TCPA/Palladium technology

1. Electronic voting machines (as in Brazil)--that way you can tell that the
vote totals that are communicated to you were indeed generated using the
authorized software.  I still think there should be an auditable paper
trail.

2. Prevent cheating in open-source network games.  In competition, you could
know whether you're competing against the un-modified versions of the
software.  This problem was noted with Quake:

http://slashdot.org/articles/99/12/26/1255258.shtml
http://slashdot.org/articles/99/12/27/1127253.shtml

Kind of ironic that TCPA could actually solve a problem of open source
software.

Re: more snake oil? [WAS: New uncrackable(?) encryption technique]

[David Howe]

at Friday, October 25, 2002 6:22 PM, bear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was seen to
say:
> The implication is that they have a "hard problem" in their
> bioscience application, which they have recast as a cipher.
The temptation is to break it, *tell* them you have broken it (and offer
to break any messages they encrypt in it just to demonstrate) but dont'
tell them how you did it.
That would probably be even more fustrating for them than the problem
was :)

Re: internet radio - broadcast without incurring royalty fees

[Major Variola (ret)]

At 02:37 AM 10/25/02 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>Seems to me this would pass current IP laws because it is like a radio
>station which broadcast the name of a song and the user is expected to
>insert the CD in his player and play along to keep up with the
>commentary, only automated and with open APIs for the "load and play
>this CD track" instructions so people can hook it up to whatever is
>convenient to them.

Such a station resembles an editor who suggests articles by giving a
pointer, e.g., ISBN, Journal cite, or URL.
Some editors (like talk-free radio stations) may not even provide
commentary, but their
subscribers value the information implicit in their choices.

[One listens to radio, follows editors' pointers, etc. because one
desires fresh bits...
and a "good" Editor increases the probability that you will encounter
fresh bits you like.

Even unintentional Editors are valuable: Using KaZaa, one can scan all
of other nodes' shared files;
finding a user with content you like (tastes like yours) via a regular
search often
yields a cache of good content.]

Version 2 of the BackBox should handle video, with DVD/TiVo++ URIs, too.

Re: internet radio - broadcast without incurring royalty fees

[Major Variola (ret)]

t 11:21 PM 10/24/02 -0700, James A. Donald wrote:
>
>I am a really big fan of "Buffy".

Seek professional help.


but my experience with downloading TV shows suggests
>that piracy is working better than ever.

This wasn't piracy, it was time-shifting.  You, as an
American with a TV, could watch the show at X; you as
an American can save it and watch it at Y, too.
The videotape-timeshift-legal-decisions didn't say
anything about VHS vs. BETA vs. DiVX formats.
You could put it on Hollerith cards but the greens
would be pissed.

The fact that part of your video system is distributed in a few
million homes should be irrelevent.

Re: internet radio - broadcast without incurring royalty fees

[James A. Donald]

--
On 24 Oct 2002 at 20:32, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> Napster clones, kazaa, gnutella et al. rely on end-users to 
> upload stuff. These end users simply have no bandwidth 
> available for that. Cheapo DSL lines have hundred or few 
> hundreds of kbit/sec unguaranteed upload capacity. No one is 
> going to pay T1 to serve free stuff in breach of copyright 
> laws.
>
> The net result is - and anyone can try it for themselves - 
> that average success rate is less than 40%, the speed is 
> miserable - most of the time it takes hour or more for 5-6 
> minute mp3, and then you need to be lucky so that content 
> matches the title.

I am a really big fan of "Buffy".  A cute chick, lots of 
violence and killing, and a bit of sex, what more can one ask 
for in a TV show?   Recently due to family crisis, I missed a 
couple of shows.  So, using usenet, I downloaded the two one 
hour shows that I missed.  I had no problem getting them, the 
download ran in the background.  It did not seem to take an 
unreasonably long time, though I did not bother to time it.  I 
started the download, proceeded to do other things, and when I 
remembered to check, the download was done.   So I then watched 
the shows.  The image and sound quality was excellent, the ads 
had been deleted.  The stories were rattling good.  Loved the 
bit where buffy says "I am the law", and picks up a great big 
naked sword and stalks off to apply the instant death penalty, 
while Xander flutters about ineffectually being deeply caring 
and emotional and having deep moral debates about the use of 
violence.

I have never downloaded a tv show off the internet before. 
Everything just worked, no fuss, unlike some encryption 
programs I could mention.

> While there always will be pathological cases that will spend 
> tens of hours online to get few mp3s for free (that is, until 
> local telco decides that flat rate is no more viable), for 
> most napsters are unusable.

My experience is that the mass media are doomed.  This stuff 
works just great for me.   I have stopped downloading music 
until I organize the music I already have.   Napster was just 
great, worked with no fuss.  Maybe the Napster clones are not 
as good, but my experience with downloading TV shows suggests 
that piracy is working better than ever. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 w5c01d6+NpDvLdLI2X6Jg5z8F2yx1pwhncy3yMYK
 4b/esfa1UycmFgStXtluIkq+6g1XHHb8MMWOMZOkk

Re: internet radio - broadcast without incurring royalty fees

[Adam Shostack]

On Fri, Oct 25, 2002 at 02:37:32AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:

| Seems to me this would pass current IP laws because it is like a radio
| station which broadcast the name of a song and the user is expected to
| insert the CD in his player and play along to keep up with the
| commentary, only automated and with open APIs for the "load and play
| this CD track" instructions so people can hook it up to whatever is
| convenient to them.

Sounds like it will sound like contributory infringement and 100k in
legal costs to RIAA.  Happy fun court is not amused.

But I am.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
   -Hume

Re: internet radio - broadcast without incurring royalty fees

[Morlock Elloi]

> - queueing the track for download via kazaa

Napster clones, kazaa, gnutella et al. rely on end-users to upload stuff. These
end users simply have no bandwidth available for that. Cheapo DSL lines have
hundred or few hundreds of kbit/sec unguaranteed upload capacity. No one is
going to pay T1 to serve free stuff in breach of copyright laws.

The net result is - and anyone can try it for themselves - that average success
rate is less than 40%, the speed is miserable - most of the time it takes hour
or more for 5-6 minute mp3, and then you need to be lucky so that content
matches the title.

This makes it impractical for situations where many look for the same content,
in near real time.

shoutcast/icecast systems have 40-60K simultaneous users planetwide, with 2-3K
simultaneous broadcasts. Most stations have 1-5 listeners, popular ones up to a
hundred or even more (I have no idea who pays bandwidth for those ... some 128
kbit/sec jazz ones are really good, and have 200-300 users).

All in all, this is negligible, a don't-care at this point. The broadcast tax
is a preemptive move that is supposed to influence the future.

While there always will be pathological cases that will spend tens of hours
online to get few mp3s for free (that is, until local telco decides that flat
rate is no more viable), for most napsters are unusable. Usable serving costs
money, is stationary and therefore taxable. Until all 802.11bs automesh
networks get connected independently of "internet".


=
end
(of original message)

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[anonymous]

More paranoia to fuel the wagons, prepare to bend over on trains when the 
ticket collector comes round.

"Officials said the warning, based on information obtained from al Qaeda 
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bridges or key sections of tracks.

"The group has considered directly targeting U.S. passenger trains, 
possibly using operatives who have a Western appearance," the FBI said 
Thursday in a statement issued to state and local law enforcers."




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