Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 08:15:37PM -0800, Mike Rosing wrote: > On Sat, 7 Dec 2002, Tim May wrote: > > Frankly, millions of these fascists need a simple solution: a tree, a > > horse, and a rope. > There aren't enough horses :-) Unlike bullets, horses and rope are reusable. More expensive up front, but reusable. -- "To be born free is an accident. | Quit smoking: To live free is a responsibility.| 240d, 13h ago To die free is an obligation." | petro@ --Brigadier General Bill Halley | bounty.org
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 10:55:00AM -0800, James A. Donald wrote: > -- > On 9 Dec 2002 at 9:17, Tim May wrote: > > Anyone in the U.S. can be declared an "enemy combatant" and > > vanished away from lawyers, habeas corpus, the 6th Amendment, > > and any semblance of the system of liberty we sort of had at > > one time. > > So far this has only been applied to people who are obviously > hostile muslim terrorist wannabees, How do you know? -- A vote is like a rifle: It's usefulness depends upon the | Quit smoking: character of the user. | 240d, 13h ago --Theodore Roosevelt | petro@ | bounty.org
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
On Sat, Dec 14, 2002 at 05:21:43PM -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > I was just wondering the same thing myself. Since when is EPIC not > cypherpunk-friendly? See my reasonably long post in this thread and Tim's nicely-reasoned response... -Declan
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
On 15 Dec 2002, David Wagner wrote: > Declan McCullagh wrote: > >Also epic.org (not a cypherpunk-friendly organization, > >but it does try to limit law enforcement surveillance) [...] > > Is the cypherpunks movement truly so radicalized that it is > not willing to count even EPIC among its friends? I was just wondering the same thing myself. Since when is EPIC not cypherpunk-friendly? -MW-
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
On 15 Dec 2002, David Wagner wrote: > Declan McCullagh wrote: > >Also epic.org (not a cypherpunk-friendly organization, > >but it does try to limit law enforcement surveillance) [...] > > Is the cypherpunks movement truly so radicalized that it is > not willing to count even EPIC among its friends? Only in Declan's head. EPIC is a very pro-privacy for individuals, pro- government accountability and freedom of information, and has been a strong supporter of strong cryptography. EPIC is undeniably an ally.
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
Declan McCullagh wrote: >Also epic.org (not a cypherpunk-friendly organization, >but it does try to limit law enforcement surveillance) [...] Is the cypherpunks movement truly so radicalized that it is not willing to count even EPIC among its friends?
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 11:14:18AM -0800, Tim May wrote: > You really need to get up to speed on this issue if you think either > the nations of Europe or Canada are more tolerant of crypto than the > U.S. is. The archives have much material, findable with Google in most > cases. Tim is right. Also epic.org (not a cypherpunk-friendly organization, but it does try to limit law enforcement surveillance) publishes semi-regular reports about the state of crypto laws around the world. -Declan
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
On Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 01:37 AM, Lucky Green wrote: James A. Donald wrote: In general wars lead to a major temporary reduction in liberty, but a smaller permanent reduction in liberty. Unfortunately the war on terror will probably never end, so there will be no recovery. I heard some governmental official on the radio the other day (I paid attention too late to catch the name) (Sidebar: I often wish for TIVO radio. I use my personal video recorder (PVR) features extensively to rewind through a story, to see what I came in late on, to catch a name. Great invention. Until Jack Valenti and his crowd have it declared a hacker tool, my Ultimate TV PVR is my favorite tool. I often find myself mentally thinking "hit the backup button.") that the War on Terrorism should be won in about 60 years, at which point the American citizens would see their civil liberties returned. Obviously, only traitors, agitators, and other enemy combatants would make the outrageous claim that this war will likely last perpetually. I would never say such a treasonous thing. As a liberal chick here in Santa Cruz once said at a public meeting, "The Constitution says people can have incorrect thoughts, but it doesn't say they can express them out loud if it's hate speech." Besides, I don't have any desire to visit Camp X-Ray. I have always loved Big Brother! --Tim May "To those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists." --John Ashcroft, U.S. Attorney General
RE: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
James A. Donald wrote: > In general wars lead to a major temporary reduction in liberty, > but a smaller permanent reduction in liberty. Unfortunately > the war on terror will probably never end, so there will be no > recovery. I heard some governmental official on the radio the other day (I paid attention too late to catch the name) that the War on Terrorism should be won in about 60 years, at which point the American citizens would see their civil liberties returned. Obviously, only traitors, agitators, and other enemy combatants would make the outrageous claim that this war will likely last perpetually. --Lucky
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Anonymous wrote: > > It already has. And the hell with the horses -- tie the other end of the rope > to a fast car. That would give a new meaning to "drawn and quartered". There's a lot of bureaucrats who need that performed on them. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 10:48 AM, Tyler Durden wrote: In a state where Crypto is not resisted (OK, there probably aren't a lot of these...perhaps in Europe or Canada?), Crypto "defaults" to the above. You really need to get up to speed on this issue if you think either the nations of Europe or Canada are more tolerant of crypto than the U.S. is. The archives have much material, findable with Google in most cases. ... This is essentially the view I had coming in, and its basically the view I have now, except I am thinking I should start finding the time to write some code! That sounds good. --Tim May "They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, and it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers actually read it, but the bill definitely was not available to members before the vote." --Rep. Ron Paul, TX, on how few Congresscritters saw the USA-PATRIOT Bill before voting overwhelmingly to impose a police state
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 10:55 AM, James A. Donald wrote: So far this has only been applied to people who are obviously hostile muslim terrorist wannabees, but the program will be steadily expanded. Indeed, part of the homeland security act already aims at people who make cartridges (reloaders), who will in due course be dealt with by the extrajudicial means provided for in the homeland security act. In general wars lead to a major temporary reduction in liberty, but a smaller permanent reduction in liberty. Unfortunately the war on terror will probably never end, so there will be no recovery. The government is on perfectly good constitutional ground when it claims that the army can do as it pleases on or near the battlefield. Trouble is, with terrorism or guerrilla war, the battlefield is arguably everywhere. We need a declaration of victory that will push the battlefield to somewhere far away. "Permanent war" was the ideal for statists long, long before Orwell correctly described it in "1984." The First Fascist, Lincoln, suspended the Constitution and instituted Emergency Powers which are still in place. (Others have studied this in more detail than I remember here. I think Froomkin was one who did a study. Anyway, the gist is that various Emergency Orders, Emergency Powers, etc. have been more or less in place since the 1860s. They took a sharp turn upward during the Second Fascist's rule, in the 1930s, and then again during the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Fascist periods.) --Tim May "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." --Samuel Adams
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 06:56 AM, Tyler Durden wrote: "Frankly, millions of these fascists need a simple solution: a tree, a horse, and a rope." Damn. If it gets to the point where I'm a terrorist because some local warlord doesn't like me (or thinks I disrespect his authority), then "might makes right" is all that will be left. Anyone in the U.S. can be declared an "enemy combatant" and vanished away from lawyers, habeas corpus, the 6th Amendment, and any semblance of the system of liberty we sort of had at one time. In a way, the potential and impending truth of Tim May's statement is for a me a motivator to continue to promote strong crypto, ubiquitous Wi-Fi, "BlackNet", and so on. Hopefully it won't come down to the above. It's mildly amusing to watch your months-long transition from newcomer to believer that crypto provides the tools for sabotaging the State and protecting real liberty. --Tim May "If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
Tyler Durden said: > In a way, the potential and impending truth of Tim May's statement is for a > me a motivator to continue to promote strong crypto, ubiquitous Wi-Fi, > "BlackNet", and so on. Hopefully it won't come down to the above. It already has. And the hell with the horses -- tie the other end of the rope to a fast car.
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
"It's mildly amusing to watch your months-long transition from newcomer to believer that crypto provides the tools for sabotaging the State and protecting real liberty." Well, this is for me not an easy issue. Amerika has always had a hard-on for fascism (as long as it was in the service of "freedom"), and as a result the pendulum seems to swing pretty wildly at times. Crypto is for me primarily a way to send information to somebody else without worrying if a third party hears it. This may be financial data, it may be personal information. In a state where Crypto is not resisted (OK, there probably aren't a lot of these...perhaps in Europe or Canada?), Crypto "defaults" to the above. In a state where crypto (and hence my right to communicate discretely) is resisted, it then transforms into a means of resistance and possible preservation of residual freedoms. (And I would argue that Crypto is transformed precisely BY the resisting powers, contrary to their belief.) And let's say, for 5 minutes, that I might be willing to sacrifice some of my freedom for more "security". Even if I actually believed this would work, the fact is that the state that "protects us" now from the scary Terrorists out there can (and likely will) transmute into a corrupt shell for the rich and powerful (if it isn't that already). I am actually anti-violence (insofar as violence is defined as harm by humans towards other humans). I am not a passifist, however, which for me means that if actual violence is ever to be used, it should be used only as an absolute last resort, after all other possibilities have been exhausted, and only for reasons that have undeniable need (WW2 is an example, as was the Chinese Communist reaction to the Nationalist's non-response to Japanese Genocide in China). In this sense, then, strong Crypto, Ubiquitous WiFi/Broadband, P2P, Blacknet and so on are for me tools with which to head off scenarios where violence might otherwise be the only reasonable recourse. Are we nearing such a scenario? I really don't know. I haven't yet been in a situation where I felt it was the only reasonable response, and I hope I never am. (I've been close, though.) What I DO hope is that via the proliferation of such (and other) technologies, the very notions of "limiting speech" (whether by "good guys" or "bad guys"), surveillance of on-line activites, and so on, become anachronistic, perhaps even non-concepts. This won't solve all thr problems, of course, but at least it will be difficult (if not impossible) for Governments to operate without their being widespread knowledge of its activities, and I believe this can only be a good thing (like, imagine if their had been video regularly uploaded out of Treblinka). Is this view necessarily anti-State? It depends on the state. This is essentially the view I had coming in, and its basically the view I have now, except I am thinking I should start finding the time to write some code! _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
-- On 9 Dec 2002 at 9:17, Tim May wrote: > Anyone in the U.S. can be declared an "enemy combatant" and > vanished away from lawyers, habeas corpus, the 6th Amendment, > and any semblance of the system of liberty we sort of had at > one time. So far this has only been applied to people who are obviously hostile muslim terrorist wannabees, but the program will be steadily expanded. Indeed, part of the homeland security act already aims at people who make cartridges (reloaders), who will in due course be dealt with by the extrajudicial means provided for in the homeland security act. In general wars lead to a major temporary reduction in liberty, but a smaller permanent reduction in liberty. Unfortunately the war on terror will probably never end, so there will be no recovery. The government is on perfectly good constitutional ground when it claims that the army can do as it pleases on or near the battlefield. Trouble is, with terrorism or guerrilla war, the battlefield is arguably everywhere. We need a declaration of victory that will push the battlefield to somewhere far away. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG FLOmVFJWOQBqPSg63zjCLyzrGNzmKNAwje/jqRal 4BI7xjE+ItnxvhioCvggkQ6IREbp21mrBxAIeCBcg
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
"Frankly, millions of these fascists need a simple solution: a tree, a horse, and a rope." Damn. If it gets to the point where I'm a terrorist because some local warlord doesn't like me (or thinks I disrespect his authority), then "might makes right" is all that will be left. In a way, the potential and impending truth of Tim May's statement is for a me a motivator to continue to promote strong crypto, ubiquitous Wi-Fi, "BlackNet", and so on. Hopefully it won't come down to the above. _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
At 03:07 PM 12/08/2002 -0500, Mark Renouf wrote: jet wrote: At 20:48 -0500 2002/12/07, Myers W. Carpenter wrote: http://www.2600.com/news/display/display.shtml?id=1441 PHOTOGRAPHER ARRESTED FOR TAKING PICTURES OF VICE PRESIDENT'S HOTEL Posted 5 Dec 2002 06:03:48 UTC One major issue is these days, the laws have become so incredibly complicated that the average citizen isn't confident in their knowledge of the law, let alone most that enforce it. There are a couple of laws that are universal. One of them is "Don't Annoy The Cops". While occasionally you can violate this by accident, because there's some thing the cops are doing that you didn't expect, or because their paranoia or grouchiness levels have recently increased, but usually you know when you're going to violate it. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it, just that you shouldn't be surprised.
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
jet wrote: At 20:48 -0500 2002/12/07, Myers W. Carpenter wrote: http://www.2600.com/news/display/display.shtml?id=1441 PHOTOGRAPHER ARRESTED FOR TAKING PICTURES OF VICE PRESIDENT'S HOTEL Posted 5 Dec 2002 06:03:48 UTC One major issue is these days, the laws have become so incredibly complicated that the average citizen isn't confident in their knowledge of the law, let alone most that enforce it. They know that the average citizen is going to want to 'do the right thing' and comply with any requests, whether or not any laws were broken. And let's face it, even if you or I know our rights to the letter it doesn't make a bit of difference until after the fact in a courtoom. Police generally won't sit and debate with you about it on the spot.
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
On Sat, 7 Dec 2002, Tim May wrote: > > Frankly, millions of these fascists need a simple solution: a tree, a > horse, and a rope. There aren't enough horses :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
http://www.2600.com/news/display/display.shtml?id=1441 PHOTOGRAPHER ARRESTED FOR TAKING PICTURES OF VICE PRESIDENT'S HOTEL Posted 5 Dec 2002 06:03:48 UTC An amateur photographer named Mike Maginnis was arrested on Tuesday in his home city of Denver - for simply taking pictures of buildings in an area where Vice President Cheney was residing. Maginnis told his story on Wednesday's edition of Off The Hook. Maginnis's morning commute took him past the Adams Mark Hotel on Court Place. Maginnis, who says he always carried his camera wherever he went, snapped about 30 pictures of the hotel and the surrounding area - which included Denver police, Army rangers, and rooftop snipers. Maginnis, who works in information technology, frequently photographs such subjects as corporate buildings and communications equipment. The following is Maginnis's account of what transpired: As he was putting his camera away, Maginnis found himself confronted by a Denver police officer who demanded that he hand over his film and camera. When he refused to give up his Nikon F2, the officer pushed him to the ground and arrested him. After being brought to the District 1 police station on Decatur Street, Maginnis was made to wait alone in an interrogation room. Two hours later, a Secret Service agent arrived, who identified himself as Special Agent "Willse." The agent told Maginnis that his "suspicious activities" made him a threat to national security, and that he would be charged as a terrorist under the USA-PATRIOT act. The Secret Service agent tried to make Maginnis admit that he was taking the photographs to analyze weaknesses in the Vice President's security entourage and "cause terror and mayhem." When Maginnis refused to admit to being any sort of terrorist, the Secret Service agent called him a "raghead collaborator" and a "dirty pinko faggot." After approximately an hour of interrogation, Maginnis was allowed to make a telephone call. Rather than contacting a lawyer, he called the Denver Post and asked for the news desk. This was immediately overheard by the desk sergeant, who hung up the phone and placed Maginnis in a holding cell. Three hours later, Maginnis was finally released, but with no explanation. He received no copy of an arrest report, and no receipt for his confiscated possessions. He was told that he would probably not get his camera back, as it was being held as evidence. Maginnis's lawyer contacted the Denver Police Department for an explanation of the day's events, but the police denied ever having Maginnis - or anyone matching his description - in custody. At press time, the Denver PD's Press Information Office did not return telephone messages left by 2600. The new police powers introduced by the USA-PATRIOT act, in the name of fighting terrorism, have been frightening in their apparent potential for abuse. Mike Maginnis's experience on Tuesday is a poignant example of how this abuse is beginning to occur. It suggests that a wide range of activities which might be considered "suspicious" could be suddenly labeled a prelude to terrorism, and be grounds for arrest. We will continue to post updates to this story as we learn them.
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
At 20:48 -0500 2002/12/07, Myers W. Carpenter wrote: >http://www.2600.com/news/display/display.shtml?id=1441 > >PHOTOGRAPHER ARRESTED FOR TAKING PICTURES OF VICE PRESIDENT'S HOTEL >Posted 5 Dec 2002 06:03:48 UTC Is there any other coverage of this? -- J. Eric Townsend -- jet spies com buy stuff, damnit: http://www.spies.com/jet/store.html
Re: Photographer Arrested For Taking Pictures Of Vice President'S Hotel
On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 05:48 PM, Myers W. Carpenter wrote: http://www.2600.com/news/display/display.shtml?id=1441 PHOTOGRAPHER ARRESTED FOR TAKING PICTURES OF VICE PRESIDENT'S HOTEL Posted 5 Dec 2002 06:03:48 UTC An amateur photographer named Mike Maginnis was arrested on Tuesday in his home city of Denver - for simply taking pictures of buildings in an area where Vice President Cheney was residing. Maginnis told his story on Wednesday's edition of Off The Hook. Maginnis's morning commute took him past the Adams Mark Hotel on Court Place. Maginnis, who says he always carried his camera wherever he went, snapped about 30 pictures of the hotel and the surrounding area - which included Denver police, Army rangers, and rooftop snipers. Maginnis, who works in information technology, frequently photographs such subjects as corporate buildings and communications equipment. The fact that the U.S. is now adopting Soviet-style restrictions on who and what can be photographed (from public viewing spots, I mean, not sneaking into submarine bases and missile factories) is hardly surprising. There are a lot of such stories. There's the time I was threatened with arrest unless I allowed cops to search a bag without a warrant. Frankly, millions of these fascists need a simple solution: a tree, a horse, and a rope. --Tim May "The great object is that every man be armed and everyone who is able may have a gun." --Patrick Henry "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton