Bug#509242: ITP: lensfun -- LensCorrection editor plugin

[Mark Purcell]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Mark Purcell 

* Package name: lensfun
  Version : 0.2.3
  Upstream Author : Andrew Zabolotny 
* URL : http://lensfun.berlios.de
* License : GPL, MIT/X
  Programming Lang: C++ & C
  Description : LensCorrection editor plugin

Database of photographic lenses and their characteristics.

The lensfun library not only provides a way to read the database
and search for specific things in it, but also provides a set of
algorithms for correcting images based on detailed knowledge of
lens properties. Right now lensfun is designed to correct
distortion, transversal (also known as lateral) chromatic aberrations,
vignetting and colour contribution of the lens (e.g. when sometimes
people says one lens gives "yellowish" images and another, say, "bluish").

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 5.0
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (500, 'testing'), (1, 'experimental')
Architecture: i386 (i686)


debian/copyright:
=
This package was debianized by Mark Purcell  on
Sat, 05 Jul 2008 11:33:25 +1000.

It was downloaded from http://lensfun.berlios.de

Upstream Authors:

CODE:
Andrew Zabolotny 

LENS DATA:
Tom Niemann: original open-source ptlens database.

Copyright:

[Copyright: 2005-2007 Andrew Zabolotny]

License:

The libraries which are part of this package are licensed under the terms
of the GNU Lesser General Public License, version 3. Libraries are located
under the subdirectory libs/ of the source package. A copy of the license
is available in the file lgpl-3.0.txt which can be found in the source
archive. You can read it here: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/lgpl-3.0.html

Applications which are part of this package are licensed under the terms
of the GNU General Public License, version 3. Applications are located
under the apps/ subdirectory of the source package. A copy of the license
can be found in the file gpl-3.0.txt which can be found in the source
achive. You can read it here: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.html

Also the build system (the contents of the build/ subdirectory plus the
ac.py file) is licensed under GPL v3.

Test programs and tools are put into public domain, unless explicitly
specified otherwise in the header of the source files. Test programs
are located under the tests/ subdirectory, and tools are located in tools/.

The lens database is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share
Alike 3.0 license. The database is located under the data/ subdirectory
of the source package. You can read it here:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/


The Debian packaging is (C) 2008, Mark Purcell  and
is licensed under the GPL, see `/usr/share/common-licenses/GPL'.

# Please also look if there are files or directories which have a
# different copyright/license attached and list them here.

tools/makedep/pr.cpp: MIT/X11 (BSD like) 
  [Copyright: 1993, 1994 X Consortium]

tools/makedep/cppsetup.cpp: MIT/X11 (BSD like) 
  [Copyright: 1993, 1994 X Consortium]

tools/makedep/include.cpp: MIT/X11 (BSD like) 
  [Copyright: 1993, 1994 X Consortium]

tools/makedep/parse.cpp: MIT/X11 (BSD like) 
  [Copyright: 1993, 1994 X Consortium]

tools/makedep/ifparser.cpp: UNKNOWN
  [Copyright: 1992 Network Computing Devices, Inc]

tools/makedep/main.cpp: MIT/X11 (BSD like) 
  [Copyright: 1993, 1994 X Consortium]



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Re: Gtk1.2/Imlib/gnome-lib packages (Long)

[Paul Wise]

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 3:20 AM, Barry deFreese  wrote:

> OK, I have created a new page at:
> http://wiki.debian.org/Gtk1.2ImlibGnome1Removals and linked it to the
> OngoingTransitions page.

Would it be a good idea to file bugs against all packages depending on
the gnome1/gtk1/imlib1 stack? With user debian...@l.d.o (or
debian-rele...@l.d.o) and usertag gtk1-removal. This would be a good
way to get an overview of the current status of the removal I think.

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 10:11:25AM +0100, Thomas Weber wrote:
> > No, the problem is that certain of our French developers *think* that the
> > rest of the world just doesn't understand their French humor and that
> > something has been lost in translation.

> > When the reality is that we understand it just fine, and think they're
> > assholes for it.

> > It's only a cultural difference if you're counting Kindergarten as a
> > "culture".

> I find this strange, given that not too long ago you categorized the
> participants of debian-legal as "wankers".

> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/12/msg00174.html

> Joss' messages can be understood as pretty bad humor. Was your message
> above also meant as a joke?

No.  What part of that message would lead you to think I was joking?

> Or do you need to let of some steam here, because such behaviour is
> unacceptable on Ubuntu lists?

There's no ubuntu-legal list infested with leeches who think it's their
business to tell Ubuntu how to interpret its own license requirements
without ever having contributed a line of code to Ubuntu, so I don't think
the analogy holds.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Steve McIntyre]

Eduard wrote:
>#include 
>* Russell Coker [Thu, Dec 18 2008, 11:04:24PM]:
>> http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7991
>> 
>> From the above news article:
>> # Debian Project Leader Steve McIntyre told iTWire that after Mouette's 
>> "abuse
>
>I would like to know what exactly Steve told them. The major tone WRT
>OSS on that page seems to be pretty harsh, close to FUD and trolling.
>
>So how did Steve feed them, did he at all?

Hi Eduard,

Apologies for the delay in responding here. Crisis at work on top of
-vote stuff... :-(

Here's the full body of the message I sent to Sam. He contacted me
asking for my thoughts and I wrote the following:

===

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:53:24AM +1100, Sam Varghese wrote:
>Hi Steve
>
>Trusts this find you in good health and spirits.
>
>I am shortly running a story about the sexist post by Josselin Mouette
>and the fallout of the same.
>
>I would be grateful to know your reaction to the issue asap.

Hi Sam,

Things aren't too bad for me, thanks. Well, beyond the usual over-work
and lack of time anyway... :-) How are things with you?

I assume you're talking about Josselin's post to debian-devel-announce
on the 23rd of November [1]. Joss is, unfortunately, rather fond of
posting his own brand of "humour" when he wants to make a point, and
in this case his post was both ridiculously off-topic and juvenile.

Quite a number of people took exception to the content of his message,
as you've probably seen from the following discussions. I don't
believe he was actually trying to be *directly* offensive in what he
wrote, but his judgement is clearly not the best.

After his abuse of the ability to post to the d-d-a mailing list, I
asked our mailing list administrators to remove that privilege for in
future.

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2008/11/msg5.html

===

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
"I suspect most samba developers are already technically insane... Of
 course, since many of them are Australians, you can't tell." -- Linus Torvalds


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Re: Bug#509225: ITP: tevent -- talloc-based event loop library

[Jelmer Vernooij]

Am Samstag, den 20.12.2008, 11:10 +1100 schrieb Robert Collins:
> On Fri, 2008-12-19 at 23:49 +0100, Jelmer Vernooij wrote:
> 
> > An alternative would be to implement tevent as a wrapper around libev or
> > libevents that added talloc support to the API but that's hardly worth
> > the trouble as that would add another dependency and the library is
> > pretty small itself as is.
> 
> It would however prevent further fragmentation in this space ;)
> 
> libevent + libtevent-which-wraps-libevent is better than
> libtevent-which-duplicates-much-of-libevent. :)
In theory, I agree. However, in this case libevents is about a factor 10
larger in terms of source code than libtevent, and that's even without
the wrapper that would add talloc support and the support for AIO.

But more importantly (with my upstream hat on): we have to support a lot
of folks that are not running fancy systems like Debian (apt FTW), and
who have to still install everything manually. This means another
dependency for them to install. 

Cheers,

Jelmer
-- 
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Jabber: jel...@jabber.fsfe.org


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Ron Johnson]

On 12/19/08 17:47, Eduard Bloch wrote:

#include 
* Michael Banck [Fri, Dec 19 2008, 06:13:57PM]:

Dear Norbert,

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote:

So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political
correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere
else.

Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience.


Please just heed his advice.


Or realize that English's third-person neutral is "it", which is 
certainly a rude way to refer to a person, whereas "he" is only 
considered rude by people who, well... I'd better stop right there.


--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

How does being physically handicapped make me Differently-Abled?
What different abilities do I have?


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Ron Johnson]

On 12/19/08 17:18, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Russ Allbery wrote:


Agustin Martin  writes:


For the record, a similar expression also exists in Spanish, either with
a broomstick or with an umbrella. Both ends are used in the
expression. No sexual connotation implied at all.

World is not that different,

For the record, the same is true in American English (the colloquial
phrase being "a stick up your ass" and regularly used without any sexual
connotation whatsoever).  I don't know if Russell's objections are unique
to Australia or unique to Russell.

The phrase isn't considered *polite* by any stretch of the imagination,
and can be taken as quite insulting, but it isn't a sexual insult.


Does the fact that the insult was not sexual somehow make it
 acceptable behaviour?


His phrase "isn't considered *polite*" should indicate what he 
thinks of JM's comment.


--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

How does being physically handicapped make me Differently-Abled?
What different abilities do I have?


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Hyper-sensitive PC freaks

[gregor herrmann]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:37:35 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:

> But then I also thought the parody sent to
> d-d-a was inappropriately sexist and offensive, so I'm apparently some
> sort of censorious Nazi or hyper-sensitive PC freak or whatever the
> current in-vogue terminology for people who prefer basic politeness and
> respect over that form of humor is.

JFTR: I see myself as belonging to the same group as you.
(We just need a better name :))

And I'd prefer a more civil behaviour than what we have again seen in
some public places in Debian in the last weeks. 

Cheers,
gregor, changing the subject for consistency's sake
-- 
 .''`.   Home: http://info.comodo.priv.at/{,blog/} / GPG Key ID: 0x00F3CFE4
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
* Cyril Brulebois [Fri, Dec 19 2008, 09:35:24AM]:
> Eduard Bloch  (18/12/2008):
> > * Russell Coker [Thu, Dec 18 2008, 11:04:24PM]:
> > > http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7991
> > 
> > I would like to know what exactly Steve told them. The major tone WRT
> > OSS on that page seems to be pretty harsh, close to FUD and trolling.
> > 
> > So how did Steve feed them, did he at all?
> 
> You click on the above link, you then click on “Article Link”, and you
> get the article, which includes quotes:
> 
> http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22371/1090/

And? I cannot discover any quote from Steve there, can you?

> A related article, since we're talking about iTWire:
> 
> http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22320/1090/

Yes, and? Similar pile of crap: boring summary of what we have read on
the mailing list, using quotes (cut in a bad way, IMHO) to
demonstrate... what actually?

Regards,
Eduard.

-- 
Nichts zeigt die Menschen falscher und schöner als d(ie) Leiden; im
Glück werfen sie die Schleier weg.
-- Jean Paul


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Re: Bug#509225: ITP: tevent -- talloc-based event loop library

[Robert Collins]

On Fri, 2008-12-19 at 23:49 +0100, Jelmer Vernooij wrote:

> An alternative would be to implement tevent as a wrapper around libev or
> libevents that added talloc support to the API but that's hardly worth
> the trouble as that would add another dependency and the library is
> pretty small itself as is.

It would however prevent further fragmentation in this space ;)

libevent + libtevent-which-wraps-libevent is better than
libtevent-which-duplicates-much-of-libevent. :)

-Rob
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
* Michael Banck [Fri, Dec 19 2008, 06:13:57PM]:
> Dear Norbert,
> 
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote:
> > So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political
> > correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere
> > else.
> 
> Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience.

Please just heed his advice.

Regards,
Eduard.

-- 
Windows zu benutzen ist wie Bungy-Jumping ohne Seil.
-- Jörg Gerbracht


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Russ Allbery]

Manoj Srivastava  writes:
> On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Russ Allbery wrote:

>> For the record, the same is true in American English (the colloquial
>> phrase being "a stick up your ass" and regularly used without any sexual
>> connotation whatsoever).  I don't know if Russell's objections are unique
>> to Australia or unique to Russell.

>> The phrase isn't considered *polite* by any stretch of the imagination,
>> and can be taken as quite insulting, but it isn't a sexual insult.

> Does the fact that the insult was not sexual somehow make it
>  acceptable behaviour?

Not as far as I'm concerned.  But then I also thought the parody sent to
d-d-a was inappropriately sexist and offensive, so I'm apparently some
sort of censorious Nazi or hyper-sensitive PC freak or whatever the
current in-vogue terminology for people who prefer basic politeness and
respect over that form of humor is.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Raphael Hertzog wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Josselin Mouette wrote:
>> Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 11:39 -0200, Martin Langhoff a écrit :
>> > The mission of Debian is not "spot the bigot". Debian embraces people
>> > of many beliefs, customs and ways of life under one shared belief --
>> > about an OS.
>> 
>> Precisely. And in such a project, you need to work together with people
>> having opinions you can despise or strongly disagree with. But I fail to
>> see why you’d need to shut up on those topics when they show up.
>
> It's called “Don't feed the beast/trolls”. I'd rather have less such
> discussions on debian lists and more of the productive ones (and I know
> that you didn't start this discussion).

Then perhaps a good start would be to start deprecating messages
 that insult, shock, and try to humiliate other people, which even you
 can't possibly characterize as positicve and constructuve, no?

manoj
-- 
"When in doubt, use brute force." Ken Thompson
Manoj Srivastava    
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Russ Allbery wrote:

> Agustin Martin  writes:
>
>> For the record, a similar expression also exists in Spanish, either with
>> a broomstick or with an umbrella. Both ends are used in the
>> expression. No sexual connotation implied at all.
>>
>> World is not that different,
>
> For the record, the same is true in American English (the colloquial
> phrase being "a stick up your ass" and regularly used without any sexual
> connotation whatsoever).  I don't know if Russell's objections are unique
> to Australia or unique to Russell.
>
> The phrase isn't considered *polite* by any stretch of the imagination,
> and can be taken as quite insulting, but it isn't a sexual insult.

Does the fact that the insult was not sexual somehow make it
 acceptable behaviour?

manoj
-- 
An idealist is one who helps the other fellow to make a profit. Henry
Ford
Manoj Srivastava    
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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Re: Freedom and pragmatism (was: I hereby resign as secretary)

[Noah Meyerhans]

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 09:02:04AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > OTOH, it seems to me that there are people with varying degrees of
> > pragmatism.
> 
> That implies a (lamentably common) false dichotomy. Free software
> goals *are* pragmatic goals. They directly affect how we interact with
> the digital information that infuses our lives; essential freedom in
> that sphere is a highly pragmatic goal.
> 
> There may be reasons that compel us to reduce our freedom, and they
> may also be described as ???pragmatic???. But it's wrong to imply that
> those who strive for freedom don't do so for very pragmatic reasons.

Of course there are pragmatic reasons for developing and evangelizing
free software.  If there weren't, we really would be just a bunch of
fanatics.  At the moment, I am most concerned with releasing lenny, and
I believe that our users are not well served by continued delays.

Looking back at the GR from 2006 regarding sourceless firmware in the
kernel, it's clear that most of us want the issue to be resolved.
However, it's also clear from the state of things today that there
aren't enough people with the required skills and the motivation to
resolve it.  This appears to be the case both in Debian and upstream.
If this was not true, then people would have worked to resolve the
firmware issue in the kernel long before it became a release blocker.
We can't force the people with the required skills to spend time on
something for which they otherwise have no motivation.

I suppose, then, that what I'm advocating is yet another compromise.
It's difficult to compromise on our ideals, but I believe that
continuing to delay releases over this issue is frustrating our
developers and users alike.

noah



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Re: Bug#509225: ITP: tevent -- talloc-based event loop library

[Jelmer Vernooij]

Hoi Guus,

Am Freitag, den 19.12.2008, 23:14 +0100 schrieb Guus Sliepen:
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 10:53:47PM +0100, Jelmer Vernooij wrote:
> 
> >Package name: tevent
> > Description: talloc-based event  loop library
> > 
> > tevent is a simple library that can handle the main event loop for an
> > application. It supports three kinds of events: timed events, file
> > descriptors becoming readable or writable and signals.
> > 
> > Talloc is used for memory management, both internally and for private
> > data provided by users of the library.
> 
> It seems very similar to libevent and libev, both already in Debian. Is there
> anything special about tevent using talloc? Is upstream aware of these other
> projects? If possible, try to get them to work with each other to merge their
> features and reduce the number of event loop libraries.
We're certainly aware of these other two projects - the name tevent was
picked to avoid naming conflicts or confusion with them.

The talloc integration is one of the main advantages for us, since LDB
(and Samba 4, which also uses this library heavily but includes a copy
of it at the moment) use talloc pretty heavily. 

Also, as far as I can tell neither libevent nor libev provide AIO
support at the moment.

An alternative would be to implement tevent as a wrapper around libev or
libevents that added talloc support to the API but that's hardly worth
the trouble as that would add another dependency and the library is
pretty small itself as is.

Cheers,

Jelmer

-- 
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Jabber: jel...@jabber.fsfe.org


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Bug#509227: ITP: lua-bitop -- fast lua bit manipulation library

[Enrico Tassi]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

--- Please fill out the fields below. ---

   Package name: lua-bitop
Version: 1.0.0
Upstream Author: Mike Pall
URL: http://bitop.luajit.org
License: MIT/X
Description: fast lua bit manipulation library

This library will also be luajit2 friendly, allowing compilation
of bitwise operation to native bit operations for better performances
-- 
Enrico Tassi



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Re: Bug#509225: ITP: tevent -- talloc-based event loop library

[Guus Sliepen]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 10:53:47PM +0100, Jelmer Vernooij wrote:

>Package name: tevent
> Description: talloc-based event  loop library
> 
> tevent is a simple library that can handle the main event loop for an
> application. It supports three kinds of events: timed events, file
> descriptors becoming readable or writable and signals.
> 
> Talloc is used for memory management, both internally and for private
> data provided by users of the library.

It seems very similar to libevent and libev, both already in Debian. Is there
anything special about tevent using talloc? Is upstream aware of these other
projects? If possible, try to get them to work with each other to merge their
features and reduce the number of event loop libraries.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet / with kind regards,
  Guus Sliepen 


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Freedom and pragmatism (was: I hereby resign as secretary)

[Ben Finney]

Noah Meyerhans  writes:

> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 05:04:55PM +, Ian Lynagh wrote:
> > I believe that part of the problem is that we are not all here to
> > create "a free operating system". I have the impression that some
> > developers merely wish to create "an operating system", or perhaps
> > a "'free-enough-for-me' operating system".
> 
> OTOH, it seems to me that there are people with varying degrees of
> pragmatism.

That implies a (lamentably common) false dichotomy. Free software
goals *are* pragmatic goals. They directly affect how we interact with
the digital information that infuses our lives; essential freedom in
that sphere is a highly pragmatic goal.

There may be reasons that compel us to reduce our freedom, and they
may also be described as “pragmatic”. But it's wrong to imply that
those who strive for freedom don't do so for very pragmatic reasons.

-- 
 \“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used |
  `\   when we created them.” —Albert Einstein |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Bug#509225: ITP: tevent -- talloc-based event loop library

[Jelmer Vernooij]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

--- Please fill out the fields below. ---

   Package name: tevent
Version: 1.0.0
Upstream Author: Samba Team
URL: http://www.samba.org/
License: LGPLv3
Description: talloc-based event  loop library

tevent is a simple library that can handle the main event loop for an
application. It supports three kinds of events: timed events, file
descriptors becoming readable or writable and signals.

Talloc is used for memory management, both internally and for private
data provided by users of the library.

This library is used by newer versions of libldb, which is already in
Debian.
-- 
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Jabber: jel...@jabber.fsfe.org


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Norbert Preining]

On Fr, 19 Dez 2008, Michael Banck wrote:
> Dear Norbert,
> 
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote:
> > So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political
> > correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere
> > else.
> 
> Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience.

Bummer, you are right, I forgot that, of course,
if *anyone* here thinks she or he is ...
(the worst invention in feminism is this stupid language thingy, anyone
having studied a bit of languages, a whatever ...)

Thanks for reminding me.

Best wishes

Norbert

---
Dr. Norbert Preining Vienna University of Technology
Debian Developer  Debian TeX Group
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---
SCREMBY (n.)
The dehydrated felt-tip pen attached by a string to the 'Don't Forget'
board in the kitchen which has never worked in living memory but which
no one can be bothered to throw away.
--- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Russ Allbery]

Agustin Martin  writes:

> For the record, a similar expression also exists in Spanish, either with
> a broomstick or with an umbrella. Both ends are used in the
> expression. No sexual connotation implied at all.
>
> World is not that different,

For the record, the same is true in American English (the colloquial
phrase being "a stick up your ass" and regularly used without any sexual
connotation whatsoever).  I don't know if Russell's objections are unique
to Australia or unique to Russell.

The phrase isn't considered *polite* by any stretch of the imagination,
and can be taken as quite insulting, but it isn't a sexual insult.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Debian -- the best

[Kumar Appaiah]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:47 PM, Kumar Appaiah wrote:
> The best part is that, knowing how quality assurance and the BTS
> works, I hardly ever run into problems. If I do run into problems (in
> the spirit of DFSG 3), I know I can bring it up and someone will hear

I meant Debian Social Contract, Point 3. Apologies.

Kumar
-- 
Kumar Appaiah


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Re: Debian -- the best

[Kumar Appaiah]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Neil Williams wrote:
>> Debian can be considered the optimal environment for brain imaging
>> research (compared to all other possible operating systems).
>
> That is good news - good enough to be made very, very public.

(Just keeping the thread up for adding positiveness)

Most of what I say applies to other fields as well, but anyway: I
would opine, more generally, that Debian is fantastic from science and
engineering students and researchers in general, since there are teams
which devote as much effort to keeping up-to-date and high quality
packages for science and mathematics as, say, teams which take care of
core packages such as the kernel. I can safely grab a copy of the
Debian DVDs, with the comfort that wherever I install it, I am going
to get an environment with all the simulation tools I need, as well as
tools to generate reports, visualize data and finally, format
documents about it (I am not naming the software for these tasks,
since there are too many and varied). The best part is that it is not
a _dedicated_ scientists', artists' or publishers' or games
distribution, but satisfies all these. This means that on days when I
want to goof off, I can try to see if I can complete supertux or
choose a nice solo game of cards. Total freedom to to what I want to.
Without going anywhere else.

The best part is that, knowing how quality assurance and the BTS
works, I hardly ever run into problems. If I do run into problems (in
the spirit of DFSG 3), I know I can bring it up and someone will hear
it. And I can also help in fixing it, if I can, which I often try to
do. So, thanks to all those users and developers who participate in
Debian. I (I can safely say We) appreciate it a lot!

Kumar
-- 
Kumar Appaiah


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Re: Debian -- the best

[Tobi]

> Let me express my appreciation and gratitude for Debian.

Reading debian-devel during the last weeks, I had the same feeling that
some positive counterpart to the recent discussions is needed to somehow
keep the "balance". I intended to post the top 5 reasons, why I love
Debian, but you were faster than me, so let me just add this to your thread:

1. From a users perspective, Debian just works! I recently installed and
upgraded a lot of systems to Lenny without the slightest problem. My
oldest system has been dist-upgraded from Woody to Etch to Sarge to Lenny
- and it still works!

2. apt-get install 

3. Debian is around for quite some time now, so we must be doing something
right, mustn't we?

4. Debian has a pretty large community. And for a non-profit,
volunteer-driven project, this works really well and it's fun to be part
of it!

5. Debian values software freedom. It's nice to get tons of software for
free and it's even nicer to have the freedom to take the ideas and knowhow
expressed in this software to create something new. That's how it has
always been in art and science. The world needs free software and it needs
Debian :-)

And as a bonus:

6. We have a world wide financial crisis and it's not Debian's fault :-)

Tobias


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Re: Debian -- the best

[Neil Williams]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:43:32 +0100
Michael Hanke  wrote:

> for some reason I am subscribed to debian-devel and even try to read
> most of the posts. I guess I do that to stay in touch with the most
> recent developments, but it is also I fairly good indicator of the
> projects climate ... which seems to be getting colder ...

debian-devel exists to sort out problems, identify fixes and generally
raise issues amongst a variety of Debian developers. Big issues,
controversial issues (like removal of gtk1.2) and technical
disagreements between developers need to be aired somewhere and -devel
is that place. (Personal disagreements are something else entirely -
some say those should be on -private). A list that concentrates on
problems, disagreements and controversy is always going to have a
certain amount of negativity.
 
> But I cannot understand _why_ this is happening. Posts in the thread
> started by the resignation of our secretary (but, in fact, also
> countless times before) have speculated that it might be due to an
> unfortunate (self-)selection of people generating most traffic on the
> major mailing lists, preferably about supposed-to-be-negative aspects
> of this project. What can be done?

Ignore such threads. It sounds simple, but the idea that an argument is
"won" just because you were the last person to feed the troll is
complete bunkum. Continuing a pointless (or kindergarten) thread only
diminishes the sender. When a thread departs from technical issues
and drowns in personal abuse, don't contaminate yourself with the
hassle of replying. More people will respect you if you ignore personal
abuse and limit replies to technical concerns.

One way is to separate *reading* email from *replying* to email. I
try to mark messages in my email client as potentially warranting a
reply, then continue reading all the rest of my email and only coming
back to the marked messages some (considerable) time later. At all
costs, avoid any knee-jerk reaction because it merely makes you into
the next jerk.

It doesn't always work, but it is worth trying.
 
> I believe that the Debian project (not just the OS it produces) is an
> outstanding and unique example of what can be jointly achieved by
> people from a huge range of cultural backgrounds, access to monetary
> ressources and types (or sources) of motivation. Given the reality on
> this planet, the sheer existance of the project after so many years
> is so unlikely that Hollywood should think about a movie. I am really
> proud to be able to contribute my bits to Debian.

Pride can be a trap - be careful lest your pride-and-joy gets a
side-swipe from someone. Those are the times when the knee-jerk jerks
will be hardest to silence.

Thanks for the positivity, nonetheless.
 
> Debian can be considered the optimal environment for brain imaging
> research (compared to all other possible operating systems).

That is good news - good enough to be made very, very public.

> You cannot make people try the universal OS if it doesn't run on their
> hardware. 

:-) See www.emdebian.org 

> I'd love if the feeling while reading -devel would become a bit more
> similar to the one I get when using the OS.

Not sure about that - I think -devel will continue to host a series of
"full and frank discussions". My hope is that we can collectively
ignore the kindergarten threads and avoid knee-jerk jerks. People who
start or contribute to such threads deserve to be ignored. Those who
seek to "make a name for themselves" by sounding off with previously
discarded and unoriginal ideas, baseless or personal accusations,
deliberate misunderstandings of cultural differences and personal abuse
ought to realise that the name they are making for themselves is "jerk".

The way to make a name for yourself is by doing something of technical
merit (like fixing bugs).

-- 


Neil Williams
=
http://www.data-freedom.org/
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
http://e-mail.is-not-s.ms/



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Re: Gtk1.2/Imlib/gnome-lib packages (Long)

[Barry deFreese]

Daniel Leidert wrote:

It does *not* build-depend on gnome-bin and I already told you this (you
simply did not answer). Where do you see this build-dependency?

Regards, Daniel
  

Daniel,

Sorry about that, I keep going through so many of these, I keep mixing 
up build-deps/deps in my syntax.  But I did have "Just a suggests, can 
probably be removed." in there.


Thanks,

Barry deFreese


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Re: Gtk1.2/Imlib/gnome-lib packages (Long)

[George Danchev]

On Friday 19 December 2008 21:07:09 Daniel Leidert wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, den 17.12.2008, 12:03 -0500 schrieb Barry deFreese:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > Just in case anyone cares/is interested, here is some work I have been
> > doing on packages using Gtk1.2, Imlib, gnome-libs, or any combination
> > thereof.
> >
> >
> > Obviously some packages fall within more than one rdepend/rbdepend.
> > gnome-libs:
> >
> >   bluefish
> > Actually built with gtk2 but still build-deps on gnome-bin?? (pinged
> > maintainer). Just a suggests, can probably be removed.
>
> It does *not* build-depend on gnome-bin and I already told you this (you
> simply did not answer). Where do you see this build-dependency?

Ok, genuine mistakes happen, gnome-bin is found in Suggests, hence could be 
easily removed from there => no harm done ;-) 

I think he did a pretty good job compiling such a list, and I wonder if 
Alternatives: field would also be helpful for hopeless packages or it would 
just clutter the data ?

-- 
pub 4096R/0E4BD0AB 2003-03-18 


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Re: Gtk1.2/Imlib/gnome-lib packages (Long)

[Cyril Brulebois]

Daniel Leidert  (19/12/2008):
> >   bluefish
> > Actually built with gtk2 but still build-deps on gnome-bin?? (pinged 
> > maintainer). Just a suggests, can probably be removed.
> 
> It does *not* build-depend on gnome-bin and I already told you this
> (you simply did not answer). Where do you see this build-dependency?

He probably meant “depends”. Which would be consistent with the “just a
suggests:” bits. And for those following at home:
| cy...@talisker:~$ apt-cache show bluefish|grep bin
| Suggests: galeon | iceape | iceweasel | www-browser, gnome-bin, weblint-perl 
| weblint, libxml2-utils, php5-cli, tidy

Mraw,
KiBi.


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Re: Gtk1.2/Imlib/gnome-lib packages (Long)

[Daniel Leidert]

Am Mittwoch, den 17.12.2008, 12:03 -0500 schrieb Barry deFreese:
> Hi folks,
> 
> Just in case anyone cares/is interested, here is some work I have been 
> doing on packages using Gtk1.2, Imlib, gnome-libs, or any combination 
> thereof.
> 
> 
> Obviously some packages fall within more than one rdepend/rbdepend.
> gnome-libs:
> 
>   bluefish
> Actually built with gtk2 but still build-deps on gnome-bin?? (pinged 
> maintainer). Just a suggests, can probably be removed.

It does *not* build-depend on gnome-bin and I already told you this (you
simply did not answer). Where do you see this build-dependency?

Regards, Daniel


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Bug#509213: ITP: qtcreator -- IDE specifically designed for Qt

[Adam Majer]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Adam Majer 

* Package name: qtcreator
  Version : 0.9.1-beta
  Upstream Author : Nokia
* URL : http://trolltech.com/developer/qt-creator
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: C++
  Description : IDE specifically designed for Qt

Qt Creator is a lightweight development environment (IDE) designed to
make development with the Qt application framework faster and easier.
  * Tailored specifically to the needs of Qt developers creating
cross-platform applications
  * Focuses on features that boost developer productivity without
getting in their way
  * Helps new Qt developers get up and running faster
  * Open and extendable; integrates familiar tools and file formats



-- System Information:
Debian Release: 5.0
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)



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Re: Gtk1.2/Imlib/gnome-lib packages (Long)

[Barry deFreese]

Paul Wise wrote:

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Barry deFreese  wrote:

  

Shoot, I didn't add that, Moritz did.



Ah, woops.

  

Which one should we actually use?



OngoingTransitions IMO (perhaps it could be renamed too).

BTW, found this page too:

http://wiki.debian.org/GTK%2B_1.2_leftovers

  
OK, I have created a new page at: 
http://wiki.debian.org/Gtk1.2ImlibGnome1Removals and linked it to the 
OngoingTransitions page.


Please feel free to update/fix, etc (especially the layout, I'm not 
happy with).


Thanks!

Barry deFreese


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Re: problems with the concept of unstable -> testing

[Robert Lemmen]

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 11:22:29PM +0100, Julien BLACHE wrote:
> Also new users have a tendency to go with testing and don't use
> unstable much these days.
> 
> The net effect is that there aren't enough people left using unstable
> to uncover enough problems. Hence bugs silently make it to testing.

for the record: i have a script running that monitors that, and bugs are
found 50/50 in unstable and testing. no real trend over the last 1.5
years. considering how many people use testing, and how few use
unstable, i think unstable is quite effective!

cu  robert

-- 
Robert Lemmen   http://www.semistable.com 


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Re: Re: I hereby resign as secretary

[Noah Meyerhans]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 05:04:55PM +, Ian Lynagh wrote:
> > project atmosphere.  The only way we can "get things back on track"
> > and re-focus our energy on the real reason we are all here... to
> > create a free operating system...
> 
> I believe that part of the problem is that we are not all here to create
> "a free operating system". I have the impression that some developers
> merely wish to create "an operating system", or perhaps a
> "'free-enough-for-me' operating system".

OTOH, it seems to me that there are people with varying degrees of
pragmatism.  I believe that we are all here to create a free operating
system.  However, there are those for whom an imperfect release is
better than no release at all, while there are others who believe that
if the release can't be made 100% free then it is not ready.
Personally, I'm quite happy to stand in the former group.  While I
believe that shipping non-free blobs is distasteful and unfortunate, I
believe that our users are better served by timely and functional
releases.

But then again, I also believe it to be insane that we don't allow
ourselves to include, for example, RFCs as a part of our OS.  Clearly
I'm not a true supporter of free software. 

noah



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Re: I hereby resign as secretary

[Robert Millan]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:44:11AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> 
> As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a
>  petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you
>  too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the
>  project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an
>  expulsion process.

Hi Manoj,

I'm not going to argue on your decision to resign as secretary, because I
understand how hard it must have been to go through all this pressure just
to do what is, in your judgement, your obligation in this position [1].

OTOH, triing to have you removed from the project looks a lot like a purely
emotional response, which IMO cannot be justified even if we take as granted
that you acted irresponsibly as secretary (which, btw, I don't).

Because this response is completely unjustified, I'd like to ask that you
don't vindicate them as you suggest you would.  Please force them to go
through it themselves.  Force them to provide non-sense arguments to the
DAM, and to make up silly excuses for everyone to read.  In the end, they'll
make fools of themselves no matter if they succeed or not, and I believe
it's what they deserve.  Let them make their own karma.

[1] For those who believe that I'm an uncompromising zealot (you guys know who
you are ;-) ), notice that I vocally disagreed with Manoj's decision not to
split the votes in separate ballots.  This doesn't change anything I said
in this mail, nor make me feel that his decisions as secretary are somehow
illegitimate.

-- 
Robert Millan

  The DRM opt-in fallacy: "Your data belongs to us. We will decide when (and
  how) you may access your data; but nobody's threatening your freedom: we
  still allow you to remove your data and not access it at all."


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Noah Slater]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 06:13:57PM +0100, Michael Banck wrote:
> Dear Norbert,
>
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote:
> > So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political
> > correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere
> > else.
>
> Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience.

Oh come on, this thread has been going on enough as it is. I'm tired of having
to delete all the emails! We hardly need people trying to correct other people's
usage of a language that doesn't properly provide for gender neutral
constructions in the first place.

-- 
Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Michael Banck]

Dear Norbert,

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote:
> So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political
> correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere
> else.

Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience.


thanks,

Michael


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Re: Re: I hereby resign as secretary

[Ian Lynagh]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 07:47:50AM -0700, Bdale Garbee wrote:
> 
> project atmosphere.  The only way we can "get things back on track"
> and re-focus our energy on the real reason we are all here... to
> create a free operating system...

I believe that part of the problem is that we are not all here to create
"a free operating system". I have the impression that some developers
merely wish to create "an operating system", or perhaps a
"'free-enough-for-me' operating system".


Thanks
Ian


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Re: I hereby resign as secretary

[Michael Banck]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:00:26PM +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:44:11AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > > As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a
> > >  petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you
> > >  too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the
> > >  project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an
> > >  expulsion process.
 
> Huh, who talked about expelling Manoj !?

Doesn't the above paragraph imply that?


Michael, skipping the expel vs. expulse joke


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Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 11:39 -0200, Martin Langhoff a écrit :
> > The mission of Debian is not "spot the bigot". Debian embraces people
> > of many beliefs, customs and ways of life under one shared belief --
> > about an OS.
> 
> Precisely. And in such a project, you need to work together with people
> having opinions you can despise or strongly disagree with. But I fail to
> see why you’d need to shut up on those topics when they show up.

It's called “Don't feed the beast/trolls”. I'd rather have less such
discussions on debian lists and more of the productive ones (and I know
that you didn't start this discussion).

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Le best-seller français mis à jour pour Debian Etch :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/


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Re: Re: I hereby resign as secretary

[Bdale Garbee]

> Now if only we could say positive things about people BEFORE they
> resign, wouldn't this be a better place?

+1E6

John, thank you for taking the time to write and post that note.  I couldn't 
agree more.

When Manoj and I joined the Debian project, there were only a couple dozen of 
us, and 
we indeed had a very different and more positive atmosphere.  That was a 
different time,
and in some senses a very different place.  It might therefore be easy to 
accept the idea 
that "things have changed" and that as a result we just have to live with the 
current 
situation.

I don't believe that.  Those of you who know me know that I've never believed 
that.  
There is a quote from Margaret Mead that I often include in the presentation 
materials
when I've giving public talks that I think deserves repeating here:

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can 
change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.

I've often used this quote to help explain why Free Software has been as 
successful
as it has been to date.  I think it also applies here.  Each of us, 
individually, must 
accept personal responsibility for the contribution we make to the overall 
Debian 
project atmosphere.  The only way we can "get things back on track" and 
re-focus our
energy on the real reason we are all here... to create a free operating 
system... is
to assume that each of us has the power to change things and make them better!

In hockey, there is a statistic kept about each player.  If they are on the ice 
when 
a goal is scored by their team, they get a plus one.  If they are on the ice 
when a 
goal is scored against their team, they get a minus one.  In this way, there is 
a 
rough measure of whether having that player on the ice was an overall benefit or
detriment to the team.  Players with a big positive number are highly valued, 
players
with a big negative number are likely to get traded or not have their contracts
renewed for another season.

We don't really have metrics as crisp as goals scored by and against us in the 
Debian
project.  But I believe that each of us has the responsibility to keep a 
personal
"plus/minus" tally in our heads about our own participation in the project.  If 
we
all do that, and all work hard to make sure our personal participation is a net 
benefit to the project, then I honestly believe we can and will achieve better 
results.

Bdale


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Re: Debian -- the best

[Luca Niccoli]

2008/12/19 Michael Hanke :
>
> Dear Debian developers,

As a debian user, I subscribe all of the above post.
Thanks
Luca


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Re: problems with the concept of unstable -> testing

[Dionysios Kalofonos]

Neil McGovern wrote:

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 02:09:03PM +0100, Dionysios Kalofonos wrote:
during soft freeze any changes can be made as long as no new RC bugs get  
introduced, and during hard freeze is what happens today.




Erm, doesn't this happen already?


sorry, something i did not clarify, announce a hard freeze after the RC 
bugs have been resolved. Only for the last touches.


--
-- Dionysios Kalofonos


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Re: poisoned atmosphere (Re: I hereby resign as secretary)

[Andreas Tille]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Holger Levsen wrote:


I have now decided to unsubscribe from -vote and -devel, the gain/pain ratio
has become totally unacceptable for me. I guess -project will follow soon.


I wished such flamewars could be fighted at -project and -devel would
be free for what it was intended for.  I would also love if somebody
would know a trick to move every posting which follows the 10th posting
of a single thread to /dev/null.  A thread with more then 10 mails does
most probably not contain any additional information accoding to my
observation.

Kind regards

  Andreas.

--
http://fam-tille.de


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Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 11:39 -0200, Martin Langhoff a écrit :
> The mission of Debian is not "spot the bigot". Debian embraces people
> of many beliefs, customs and ways of life under one shared belief --
> about an OS.

Precisely. And in such a project, you need to work together with people
having opinions you can despise or strongly disagree with. But I fail to
see why you’d need to shut up on those topics when they show up.

-- 
 .''`.
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Re: problems with the concept of unstable -> testing

[Neil McGovern]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 02:09:03PM +0100, Dionysios Kalofonos wrote:
> during soft freeze any changes can be made as long as no new RC bugs get  
> introduced, and during hard freeze is what happens today.
>

Erm, doesn't this happen already?

Neil
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Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Martin Langhoff]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Josselin Mouette  wrote:
> Our country is very far from exempt of human rights violations. Those
> trying to frame the current discussion in terms of cultures or countries
> are forgetting that every culture and country has its share of
> intolerant people. I don't think all Aussies are homophobic bigots; it's
> just that we have one in the project.

Hmmm, Josselin, I share with you an open mind over many things (and
yet, you'd be surprised at the prejudices you have, that only someone
from another culture can point out). Even in the odd days when I feel
all superior, I realise that it's not for everyone, and that different
cultures have their own pace, and their own direction. And I respect
them, if I am in a multicultural forum, I watch my mouth.

The mission of Debian is not "spot the bigot". Debian embraces people
of many beliefs, customs and ways of life under one shared belief --
about an OS.

cheers,


m
-- 
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 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff


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poisoned atmosphere (Re: I hereby resign as secretary)

[Holger Levsen]

Hi John,

very well said, thanks. I suggest everyone to go back and read his mail.

http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1483 is also a nice read about what working 
together nicely can achieve. I miss that in Debian. 

I have now decided to unsubscribe from -vote and -devel, the gain/pain ratio 
has become totally unacceptable for me. I guess -project will follow soon.


cheers,
Holger


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Loïc Minier]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
> I am sorry. I meant 'some French'. It was not my intention to give the
> impression that this applies to all the French. Please accept my apologies.

 We're almost all humans, thanks for retracting.  :-)

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Re: problems with the concept of unstable -> testing

[Dionysios Kalofonos]

Hi,

Bastian Venthur wrote:

What I see *now* is that the freezes during the last two and the current
release are getting longer and longer (~1,5 months, ~4 months and for
Lenny at least 5 months). For me this seems to be a serious problem we
should not ignore. Important software is outdated in unstable and
current hardware doesn't work anymore without resorting to grab packages
from experimental or unofficial sources.


how about splitting the frozen phase into soft and hard with soft 
preceding hard?


during soft freeze any changes can be made as long as no new RC bugs get 
introduced, and during hard freeze is what happens today.


Kind regards
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Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 13:30 +0100, Olivier Berger a écrit :
> For instance see our Secretaire d'Etat's declaration at :
> http://gayswithoutborders.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/france-rama-yade-will-appeal-at-the-united-nations-for-the-universal-decriminalisation-of-homosexuality/
> 
> OK, OK, maybe some kind of french arrogance here again ;)

Especially when the very day of the 60th anniversary, our beloved
foreign minister said:
“There is a permanent contradiction between human rights and a
State’s foreign policy, even in France.”

Our country is very far from exempt of human rights violations. Those
trying to frame the current discussion in terms of cultures or countries
are forgetting that every culture and country has its share of
intolerant people. I don’t think all Aussies are homophobic bigots; it’s
just that we have one in the project.

-- 
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Vincent Danjean]

Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
> Romain Beauxis wrote:
>> I start a discussion trying to explain how misunderstanding can happen and 
>> it 
>> ends up claiming that french are arogant.
> 
> I am sorry, if I misunderstood your point as defending Joss's
> announcement, while you were just trying to explain it [1].

Whether Romain was trying to defend or to explain Joss's announcement is really 
not
the point in his previous message (the one quoted at the start of this one).
  I'm very unpleased that you are claiming I'm arogant.
  I know (I see your other post) that this was not your intention and I see your
apologies. The fact is that you post this offensive message. So, do not forget
that what someone writes is not always what he thinks nor what he wants to say.

  That said, I did not read at all Joss blog, so I have no opinion (for now) on
the main issue of this thread.

  Regards,
Vincent (French people)


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OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Olivier Berger]

Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 10:01 -0200, Martin Langhoff a écrit :
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Josselin Mouette  wrote:
> > Homosexuality can be an *accusation* ‽
> 
> It still is in some countries. That's why mature people don't play
> with that openly in international projects.
> 
> Perhaps you didn't know.
> 

Still, shame on those countries.

Btw, just as we are clearly off-topic of any Debian developper related
discussion, there has just been some celebration of 60th anniversary of
the universal human rights declaration at UN yesterday, with a
specicically targeted event about sexual orientation, criminalisation of
homosexuality, etc.

For instance see our Secretaire d'Etat's declaration at :
http://gayswithoutborders.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/france-rama-yade-will-appeal-at-the-united-nations-for-the-universal-decriminalisation-of-homosexuality/

OK, OK, maybe some kind of french arrogance here again ;)

Best regards,
-- 
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Institut TELECOM, SudParis (http://www.it-sudparis.eu/), Evry (France)


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Martin Langhoff]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Josselin Mouette  wrote:
> Homosexuality can be an *accusation* ‽

It still is in some countries. That's why mature people don't play
with that openly in international projects.

Perhaps you didn't know.

cheers,


martin
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Agustin Martin]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 05:00:47AM +0100, Harald Braumann wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:04:05 +0100
> > I am really speechless The French seem to have a completely
> > different understanding of the English language used in all these
> > matters than almost every one else in the world. 
> Well, the same expression exists in German, the stick just goes
> in the other end. Do you see any "fellatial" connotation there?

For the records, a similar expression also exists in Spanish, either
with a broomstick or with an umbrella. Both ends are used in the
expression. No sexual connotation implied at all. 

World is not that different,

-- 
Agustin


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Re: Debian -- the best

[Ondrej Certik]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Michael Hanke  wrote:
>
> Dear Debian developers,
>
>
> for some reason I am subscribed to debian-devel and even try to read
> most of the posts. I guess I do that to stay in touch with the most recent
> developments, but it is also I fairly good indicator of the projects
> climate ... which seems to be getting colder ...
>
> But I cannot understand _why_ this is happening. Posts in the thread
> started by the resignation of our secretary (but, in fact, also
> countless times before) have speculated that it might be due to an
> unfortunate (self-)selection of people generating most traffic on the
> major mailing lists, preferably about supposed-to-be-negative aspects of
> this project. What can be done?
>
> Let me express my appreciation and gratitude for Debian.
>
> I believe that the Debian project (not just the OS it produces) is an
> outstanding and unique example of what can be jointly achieved by people
> from a huge range of cultural backgrounds, access to monetary ressources
> and types (or sources) of motivation. Given the reality on this planet,
> the sheer existance of the project after so many years is so unlikely
> that Hollywood should think about a movie. I am really proud to be able
> to contribute my bits to Debian.
>
> Debian is about freedom and Debian is setting the standards. The project
> is percieved as the mothership of free-software. Software that is not in
> Debian is hardly distributed somewhere else. If you want to have
> something in Debian, you have to do it _right_. Not just on the
> software-enginering side, but also wrt the legal situation.  A lot of
> people only start thinking about what a license really is about when
> forced to obey it by some Debian packager. IMHO this is very important
> as it propagates the idea in an effective and productive way -- much
> more than a disfunctional wireless device due to a missing firmware.
>
> Sorry, for the long intro -- here is my 'success story'.
>
> I work in the neurosciences. Fortunately, over the last few years the
> idea of open-source (sadly not necessarily of free _and_ open source)
> got established in this science community. More and more great pieces of
> software become available.
>
> But even better: more and more software also becomes part of Debian (see
> http://debian-med.alioth.debian.org/tasks/imaging.html for the ones
> relevant for my research).
>
> Debian can be considered the optimal environment for brain imaging
> research (compared to all other possible operating systems). It allows
> neuroscientists to setup a functional analysis environment within a few
> hours ... and keep it that way for years with minimal effort.
>
> This is only possible due to the _joint_ effort of the whole Debian
> project. I can only fail to list and thank all the subprojects and
> developers who contribute to that success, therefore I will only pick a
> few examples:
>
> You cannot make people try the universal OS if it doesn't run on their
> hardware. Thanks to the amazing Debian installer it runs on almost
> anything. In a number of neuroscience labs I know it is often the case
> that people are forced to work in some predefined environment, set up to
> fulfil the needs of the sysadmin, not the researcher. Quickly installing
> Debian in a VM is actually helping a lot of people to be more
> productive. But for sure it serves as a proper desktop, the powerful
> workstation and the computing cluster equally well. Thanks for that.
>
> I am also part of the upstream developer team of a machine-learning
> framework geared towards neurocientific datasets (http://www.pymvpa.org and
> of course http://packages.debian.org/unstable/python/python-mvpa).
> This framework is intended to glue together lots of generic packages and
> make them available for neuroscience research through a uniform
> interface. Again, Debian is the optimal environment to do that, as it
> provides almost any software package that is useful for our purpose.
>
> I went through the process of providing binary packages for this tool
> and its major dependencies on other operating systems. For some it is
> almost impossible (win), for some painful (mac). The OpenSuse build
> service is a great tool to compile stuff for a wide range of RPM-based
> distros, but still you have to do it yourself, as there is not a strong
> neuroscience-related community. In Debian however, you have a great
> Python team and the Debian-med blend, that make it a nice and pleasant
> job. Thanks for that as well.
>
> But the best is that people get used to things being to easy and just
> work that they start to demand more. With a (admittedly still low), but
> increasing frequency you hear people: 'I have this Debian setup, will
> your new tool work in it?' ... setting standards.
>
> I hope Debian will continue to provide this rich environment (even for
> the very-special-interest software) and propagate the idea of freedom.
> I could go on for a while listing

Debian -- the best

[Michael Hanke]

Dear Debian developers,


for some reason I am subscribed to debian-devel and even try to read
most of the posts. I guess I do that to stay in touch with the most recent
developments, but it is also I fairly good indicator of the projects
climate ... which seems to be getting colder ...

But I cannot understand _why_ this is happening. Posts in the thread
started by the resignation of our secretary (but, in fact, also
countless times before) have speculated that it might be due to an
unfortunate (self-)selection of people generating most traffic on the
major mailing lists, preferably about supposed-to-be-negative aspects of
this project. What can be done?

Let me express my appreciation and gratitude for Debian.

I believe that the Debian project (not just the OS it produces) is an
outstanding and unique example of what can be jointly achieved by people
from a huge range of cultural backgrounds, access to monetary ressources
and types (or sources) of motivation. Given the reality on this planet,
the sheer existance of the project after so many years is so unlikely
that Hollywood should think about a movie. I am really proud to be able
to contribute my bits to Debian.

Debian is about freedom and Debian is setting the standards. The project
is percieved as the mothership of free-software. Software that is not in
Debian is hardly distributed somewhere else. If you want to have
something in Debian, you have to do it _right_. Not just on the
software-enginering side, but also wrt the legal situation.  A lot of
people only start thinking about what a license really is about when
forced to obey it by some Debian packager. IMHO this is very important
as it propagates the idea in an effective and productive way -- much
more than a disfunctional wireless device due to a missing firmware.

Sorry, for the long intro -- here is my 'success story'.

I work in the neurosciences. Fortunately, over the last few years the
idea of open-source (sadly not necessarily of free _and_ open source)
got established in this science community. More and more great pieces of
software become available.

But even better: more and more software also becomes part of Debian (see
http://debian-med.alioth.debian.org/tasks/imaging.html for the ones
relevant for my research).

Debian can be considered the optimal environment for brain imaging
research (compared to all other possible operating systems). It allows
neuroscientists to setup a functional analysis environment within a few
hours ... and keep it that way for years with minimal effort.

This is only possible due to the _joint_ effort of the whole Debian
project. I can only fail to list and thank all the subprojects and
developers who contribute to that success, therefore I will only pick a
few examples:

You cannot make people try the universal OS if it doesn't run on their
hardware. Thanks to the amazing Debian installer it runs on almost
anything. In a number of neuroscience labs I know it is often the case
that people are forced to work in some predefined environment, set up to
fulfil the needs of the sysadmin, not the researcher. Quickly installing
Debian in a VM is actually helping a lot of people to be more
productive. But for sure it serves as a proper desktop, the powerful
workstation and the computing cluster equally well. Thanks for that.

I am also part of the upstream developer team of a machine-learning
framework geared towards neurocientific datasets (http://www.pymvpa.org and
of course http://packages.debian.org/unstable/python/python-mvpa).
This framework is intended to glue together lots of generic packages and
make them available for neuroscience research through a uniform
interface. Again, Debian is the optimal environment to do that, as it
provides almost any software package that is useful for our purpose.

I went through the process of providing binary packages for this tool
and its major dependencies on other operating systems. For some it is
almost impossible (win), for some painful (mac). The OpenSuse build
service is a great tool to compile stuff for a wide range of RPM-based
distros, but still you have to do it yourself, as there is not a strong
neuroscience-related community. In Debian however, you have a great
Python team and the Debian-med blend, that make it a nice and pleasant
job. Thanks for that as well.

But the best is that people get used to things being to easy and just
work that they start to demand more. With a (admittedly still low), but
increasing frequency you hear people: 'I have this Debian setup, will
your new tool work in it?' ... setting standards.

I hope Debian will continue to provide this rich environment (even for
the very-special-interest software) and propagate the idea of freedom.
I could go on for a while listing examples of what makes me happy about
Debian, but I guess this message is already long enough.

I'd love if the feeling while reading -devel would become a bit more
similar to the one I get when using the OS.


Michael

Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Romain Beauxis wrote:
> I start a discussion trying to explain how misunderstanding can happen and it 
> ends up claiming that french are arogant.

I am sorry, if I misunderstood your point as defending Joss's
announcement, while you were just trying to explain it [1].

Johannes

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/12/msg00785.html
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Re: Bug#509063: ITP: libproxy -- automatic proxy configuration management library

[Florian Weimer]

* Michael Banck:

>> WPAD is a broken protocol with security issues inherent to the DNS
>> devolution mechanism (which is also performed by libproxy).  Please
>> don't add implementations to the Debian archive.
>
> As I understand it, this library is made so that application writers
> don't duplicate the code all over the place.

Which is generally fine.

> If you have a better method for proxy configuration (which doesn't
> include changing the network all over the world in order to use it),
> maybe the GNOME project can use that instead.

I doubt that WPAD is necessary in lots of places to get to the WWW.
Unfortunately, due to the brokenness of the DNS version of the
protocol, clients are potentially exposed on any network which doesn't
implement the expected variant.  This is a very unfortunate situation.


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Re: Bug#509063: ITP: libproxy -- automatic proxy configuration management library

[Florian Weimer]

* Michael Banck:

> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:51:34PM +0100, Bastien ROUCARIES wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Bjørn Mork  wrote:
>> > Florian Weimer  writes:
>> 
>> > I would very much like this library to become the *only* WPAD
>> > implementation anywhere.  Hopefully eventually with some ability to
>> > define local policies, where the default Debian policy could be very
>> > strict.  E.g. "Never trust DNS for WPAD", or "Never use WPAD at all".
>> 
>> I tend to agree, we have not forbidden root to do rm -arf .
>> It is the same, it is a policy problem. With current libproxy, could root
>>  forbid the use of WPAD, even if user ask it?
>
> Dan Winship, one of the libproxy authors, replied:
>
> |- The fact that it's broken doesn't change the fact that lots of
> |  sites use it

I think the question is if there are many sites where you cannot reach
the WWW without performing full WPAD (including DNS devolution).

> |- It's already implemented by other programs in the distro anyway
> |  (notably Firefox)

This is incorrect.  Firefox does not implement WPAD, according to this
comment in the source code:

} else if (mProxyConfig == eProxyConfig_WPAD) {
// We diverge from the WPAD spec here in that we don't walk the
// hosts's FQDN, stripping components until we hit a TLD.  Doing so
// is dangerous in the face of an incomplete list of TLDs, and TLDs
// get added over time.  We could consider doing only a single
// substitution of the first component, if that proves to help
// compatibility.

Indeed, the critical part of WPAD is DNS devolution.  (The last
sentence is overly optimistic, though.)

The DNS root operators probably wouldn't want us to roll out Mozilla's
http://wpad/wpad.dat-style partial WPAD, either, because it creates
useless traffic at the root.  Traffic which can't even be offloaded
similarly to the reverse lookups for RFC 1918 by the AS 112 project
because it's well within the security perimeter of the global
Internet.  (Iceweasel doesn't this partial WPAD approach by default,
so we have that covered.)

> |
> |- Its use in libproxy can be disabled system-wide by the
> |  administrator
> |
> |I think in current libproxy WPAD is enabled by default though. We should
> |make sure that's changed.

The TLD/SLD blacklist in libproxy for DNS devolution is incomplete.
It should use the public suffix list from Mozilla.  Maybe it should
even be split into a separate package, so that it can be updated
separately.

The main risk is that someone has got a computer name like
pc251.example.co.nz, which devolves to wpad.example.co.nz and
wpad.co.nz, the latter being the problem.  There's also a concern
among large organizations that DNS devolution breaks separation of
administrative domains along DNS domains (that is,
deparment1.example.com is affected by a delegation of wpad.example.com
by a second department).

Not enabling WPAD with DNS devolution goes a long way towards dealing
with this mess.


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Loïc Minier wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
>> What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather
>> that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world
>> wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine.
> 
>  "the French" => FAIL; thanks.

I am sorry. I meant 'some French'. It was not my intention to give the
impression that this applies to all the French. Please accept my apologies.

Johannes

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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Romain Beauxis]

Le Friday 19 December 2008 09:56:21 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit :
> What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather
> that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world
> wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine.

I you ever believed one of Joss' joke was bad, this is far worse to me.

I start a discussion trying to explain how misunderstanding can happen and it 
ends up claiming that french are arogant.


I don't think I have anymore to add if it comes to that point.


Romain


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Loïc Minier]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
> What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather
> that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world
> wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine.

 "the French" => FAIL; thanks.

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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Thomas Weber]

Am Donnerstag, den 18.12.2008, 22:51 -0800 schrieb Steve Langasek:
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:04:05AM +0100, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
> > I am really speechless The French seem to have a completely
> > different understanding of the English language used in all these
> > matters than almost every one else in the world. I guess it is really
> > time that Joss realizes that what might have been OK to be written in
> > French is considered an insult when written in English to thousands of
> > readers from different cultural backgrounds.
> 
> No, the problem is that certain of our French developers *think* that the
> rest of the world just doesn't understand their French humor and that
> something has been lost in translation.
> 
> When the reality is that we understand it just fine, and think they're
> assholes for it.
> 
> It's only a cultural difference if you're counting Kindergarten as a
> "culture".

I find this strange, given that not too long ago you categorized the
participants of debian-legal as "wankers".

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/12/msg00174.html

Joss' messages can be understood as pretty bad humor. Was your message
above also meant as a joke?

Or do you need to let of some steam here, because such behaviour is
unacceptable on Ubuntu lists?

Thomas


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Romain Beauxis wrote:
> Le Friday 19 December 2008 01:04:05 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit :
>> Joss, it is disappointing that after all that time since your faux pas
>> [1], you still seem to fail to understand that what might be acceptable
>> within one culture (I don't speak or understand 'French') will not
>> necessarily be acceptable for all the other thousands of recipients of
>> your posts.
> 
> I why couldn't you just accept other cultural expressions ? If people have a 
> different understanding than yours, why should yours be the reference ?

I do accept other cultural expressions. I do like other cultural
expressions. But that does not mean that everyone is allowed to follow
his/her cultural expression always and everywhere without respecting
others.

What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather
that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world
wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine.

Debian is not a French-only project.

Just my 2ct,

Johannes
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Cyril Brulebois]

Eduard Bloch  (18/12/2008):
> * Russell Coker [Thu, Dec 18 2008, 11:04:24PM]:
> > http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7991
> 
> I would like to know what exactly Steve told them. The major tone WRT
> OSS on that page seems to be pretty harsh, close to FUD and trolling.
> 
> So how did Steve feed them, did he at all?

You click on the above link, you then click on “Article Link”, and you
get the article, which includes quotes:

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22371/1090/

A related article, since we're talking about iTWire:

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22320/1090/

Mraw,
KiBi.


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Re: I hereby resign as secretary

[Michael Casadevall]

The problem is you can't wave a magic wand, and fix the community.
It's a self-feeding cycle which goes on and on and on. Even if we had
a Code of Conduct for Debian, unless it was strongly enforced, its the
same problem.

Whether the ballot was valid or not was immaterial, the response to it
was clearly inappropriate. If we flamed people to hell and called for
their removal for every mistake, we won't have a single developer or
user left. Maybe its worth considering adopting a CoC for Debian, and
actually enforcing it, but that's someone for the community to decide,
should we ever get past flaming each other to get something done.
Michael

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 3:18 AM, Lionel Elie Mamane  wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:57:06PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
>
>> Well, I haven't left, but I do far less with Debian now than I used
>> to.
>
>> It is still my preferred OS for a variety of reasons. (...)
>
>> I get no joy whatsoever out of the current mailing list
>> discussions. (...) We're here to make a Free operating system, dammit.
>> People that are not here to make a Free operating system shouldn't be
>> here.
>
>> I have considered leaving the project several times this year.  The
>> fun of being a Debian developer went away long ago.  I maintain
>> packages for my own utility now, at home and at work, and that's it.
>
> I do recognise in me the same symptoms as those you describe. I
> haven't really analysed much to have an opinion on whether I ascribe
> them to the same causes as you or not.
>
> Several of my DD friends have solved the problem by unsubscribing from
> d-de...@l.d.o, d-v...@l.d.o, etc.
>
> --
> Lionel
>
>
> --
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>
>


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Re: I hereby resign as secretary

[Lionel Elie Mamane]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:57:06PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:

> Well, I haven't left, but I do far less with Debian now than I used
> to.

> It is still my preferred OS for a variety of reasons. (...)

> I get no joy whatsoever out of the current mailing list
> discussions. (...) We're here to make a Free operating system, dammit.
> People that are not here to make a Free operating system shouldn't be
> here.

> I have considered leaving the project several times this year.  The
> fun of being a Debian developer went away long ago.  I maintain
> packages for my own utility now, at home and at work, and that's it.

I do recognise in me the same symptoms as those you describe. I
haven't really analysed much to have an opinion on whether I ascribe
them to the same causes as you or not.

Several of my DD friends have solved the problem by unsubscribing from
d-de...@l.d.o, d-v...@l.d.o, etc.

-- 
Lionel


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