Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[deloptes]

Ihor Antonov wrote:

> As a former Arch user I second that opinion. The wiki is better
> structured, has better contents and is easy to edit anyway. Archlinux wiki
> is the primary, if not the only, source of the documentation, so all the
> effort is concentrated there.
> 

I can second that - for general Linux question I use very often the arch
wiki.

For Debian usually google & co give the right page, but very often as
mentioned structure or content is not that good or contemporary.

Re: Netbeans/Java Tutorial - Hangs

[local10]

Apr 21, 2020, 04:32 by loca...@tutanota.com:

> Netbeans 10 probably requires JDK 10 to run.
>


Actually, I just checked and  Netbeans 10 should run fine on JDK 11. As per 
your original message you have two JDKs installed: JDK 11 and JDK 15. Make sure 
you are using JDK 11 to run Netbeans, if you still get the error while running 
Netbeans on JDK 11 then you may want to raise this issue on the Netbeans user 
list.
Regards,

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[David Wright]

On Mon 20 Apr 2020 at 23:05:54 (-0400), Celejar wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:33:37 -0500
> David Wright  wrote:
> 
> > On Mon 20 Apr 2020 at 13:13:50 (-0400), Celejar wrote:
> > > On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:19:13 +0300
> > > Andrei POPESCU  wrote:
> > > 
> > > ...
> > > 
> > > > about Debian on non-Debian platforms (like StackExchange), the other 
> > > > one 
> > > > being the Arch's wiki (significantly better than Debian's).
> > > 
> > > Everyone loves the Arch wiki - I've long wondered why it's so much
> > > better than ours. Do they just have more community-minded users?
> > 
> > It looks better curated, organised and structured. The latter is hardly
> > surprising when you read Debian's FAQ¹:
> > 
> >   Q) Wouldn't the wiki be more useful if it was better organized?
> >   A) Possibly, but a structured wiki is largely a contradiction in terms.
> >   It's more important to give it good content.
> 
> In my experience, the content of the Arch wiki is ofter far superior to
> ours, not just the organization and structure.

I don't know what the writer of those two sentences meant by
structure, but I specifically mentioned the Discussion page
(≡ Wikipedia's Talk page) which I think is an important
factor in improving content.

Here's how the Debian wiki sometimes works (or, rather, fails to):

A to list> I have a problem with  …
B to A>Doing so-and-so should fix it.
C to A>Try doing this. And I guess you should also do that.
B to C>Why would you do that? That's wrong; see wiki on Foo.
C to B>But surely X suggests to do Y. Your fix is confusing.
B to C>Read the wiki which shows so-and-so is correct.
C to B>I disagree, it doesn't show that.
B to C>OK, I'll explain in great detail just what's happening.
   (Detailed explanation follows.)
C to B>Great, that really explains it well. Perhaps that summary
   should go on the wiki.
B to C>Anyone can edit the wiki. (Implying: Why don't you do it.)

So the person who made a poor suggestion showing that they didn't
understand the problem, but now (one hopes) has a slightly firmer
grasp of what's going on, is left to edit the wiki. (In this case,
five years ago, they declined.)

Now compare with Arch's "Contributing". Do you think the Debian page
for "Foo", above, is on anyone's watchlist?

> > So they have different philosophies. Perhaps Debian puts more effort
> > into the packages themselves, the installer, and documentation like
> > the Reference Manual, Release Notes etc, whereas AIUI Arch relies
> > more on its wiki. And I think Debian has a much broader scope:
> 
> But the Debian documentation you mention doesn't cover a great deal
> of practical, real-world areas of system configuration, maintenance,
> and use, at least not in any useful, up-to-date way.

I was being charitable.

> The Arch wiki, in
> my experience, simply does a much better job at documenting this sort of
> stuff than any Debian documentation.

That's why I wrote "curated". There are some dedicated people working
on their wiki. Look at their News or Statistics pages.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Netbeans/Java Tutorial - Hangs

[local10]

Apr 20, 2020, 16:01 by we...@acu.edu:

>  The fact that neither Eclipse nor NetBeans works "out of the box" on Debian 
> just adds to that sentiment.
>


Eclipse runs fine on Debian, I've been running Eclipse on Buster for quite some 
time without any issues worth mentioning. I suspect Netbeans will run fine on 
Debian too if you install a proper JDK/JRE, Netbeans 10 probably requires JDK 
10 to run.

Neither Eclipse or Netbeans are a part of Debian distribution so some tinkering 
may indeed be required.

Regards,

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Ihor Antonov]

I am not sure why we are discussing this is in a discourse thread, but what 
the heck.
> 
> In my experience, the content of the Arch wiki is ofter far superior to
> ours, not just the organization and structure.
> 
> ...
> 
> > So they have different philosophies. Perhaps Debian puts more effort
> > into the packages themselves, the installer, and documentation like
> > the Reference Manual, Release Notes etc, whereas AIUI Arch relies
> 
> > more on its wiki. And I think Debian has a much broader scope:
> But the Debian documentation you mention doesn't cover a great deal
> of practical, real-world areas of system configuration, maintenance,
> and use, at least not in any useful, up-to-date way. The Arch wiki, in
> my experience, simply does a much better job at documenting this sort of
> stuff than any Debian documentation.

As a former Arch user I second that opinion. The wiki is better structured, 
has better contents and is easy to edit anyway. Archlinux wiki is the primary, 
if not the only, source of the documentation, so all the effort is concentrated 
there.

I would love to get better navigation / search in Debian wiki, some sort of 
side bar would not be amiss. What do you think can be done to make Debian wiki 
more usable and more attractive to users/editors?


---
Ihor Antonov

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Celejar]

On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:33:37 -0500
David Wright  wrote:

> On Mon 20 Apr 2020 at 13:13:50 (-0400), Celejar wrote:
> > On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:19:13 +0300
> > Andrei POPESCU  wrote:
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > > about Debian on non-Debian platforms (like StackExchange), the other one 
> > > being the Arch's wiki (significantly better than Debian's).
> > 
> > Everyone loves the Arch wiki - I've long wondered why it's so much
> > better than ours. Do they just have more community-minded users?
> 
> It looks better curated, organised and structured. The latter is hardly
> surprising when you read Debian's FAQ¹:
> 
>   Q) Wouldn't the wiki be more useful if it was better organized?
>   A) Possibly, but a structured wiki is largely a contradiction in terms.
>   It's more important to give it good content.

In my experience, the content of the Arch wiki is ofter far superior to
ours, not just the organization and structure.

...

> So they have different philosophies. Perhaps Debian puts more effort
> into the packages themselves, the installer, and documentation like
> the Reference Manual, Release Notes etc, whereas AIUI Arch relies
> more on its wiki. And I think Debian has a much broader scope:

But the Debian documentation you mention doesn't cover a great deal
of practical, real-world areas of system configuration, maintenance,
and use, at least not in any useful, up-to-date way. The Arch wiki, in
my experience, simply does a much better job at documenting this sort of
stuff than any Debian documentation.

Celejar

Re: Buster System hangs, requires hard reboot

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 20 April 2020 21:44:10 Ralph Katz wrote:

> Hi -- Please help me diagnose and fix this problem.
>
> My five month old Dell laptop with updated firmware and new up-to-date
> Buster completely hangs and requires a hard reboot after 7-40 days
> uptime.  While reading something onscreen or away from the laptop, the
> system hangs completely: screen freezes, keyboard is unresponsive, lid
> close fails to sleep, can't ssh in, pings fail.  Hard reboot is
> required.
>
> Actions taken:
>
> - re-installed Buster twice over several months
> - ran fsck.ext4 -y /dev/sda2  when fsck failed on boot
> - ran bad blocks
> - run smartmontools long test weekly; no errors reported in logs.
>
> Sometimes there are errors in syslog like this before a crash:
> > Apr  2 06:04:18 spike3 kernel: [539637.882916] EXT4-fs error (device
> > sda2): ext4_lookup:1590: inode #55838123: comm updatedb.mlocat:
> > iget: checksum invalid
>
> Today there were no syslog errors for weeks before the system hung.
>
> After rebooting, errors like these appeared:
> > Apr 20 16:05:57 spike3 kernel: [  887.007328] EXT4-fs error (device
> > sda2): ext4_lookup:1590: inode #55842004: comm GMPThread: iget:
> > checksum invalid Apr 20 16:08:53 spike3 kernel: [ 1062.821504]
> > EXT4-fs error (device sda2): ext4_lookup:1590: inode #55842002: comm
> > DOM Worker: iget: checksum invalid
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks in advance!
> Ralph

How old, and what color are your sata cables?  There is something in the 
dye used for "hot red" cables that converts the copper of the conductors 
into a brown rust like powder which of coarse is a very poor conductor. 
Reboot, put a tail on the syslog, and touch the cable so it is moved a 
bit. If it blows up the syslog with more such messages, replace the 
cable, but replace it with any color but red..

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[David Wright]

On Mon 20 Apr 2020 at 13:13:50 (-0400), Celejar wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:19:13 +0300
> Andrei POPESCU  wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> > about Debian on non-Debian platforms (like StackExchange), the other one 
> > being the Arch's wiki (significantly better than Debian's).
> 
> Everyone loves the Arch wiki - I've long wondered why it's so much
> better than ours. Do they just have more community-minded users?

It looks better curated, organised and structured. The latter is hardly
surprising when you read Debian's FAQ¹:

  Q) Wouldn't the wiki be more useful if it was better organized?
  A) Possibly, but a structured wiki is largely a contradiction in terms.
  It's more important to give it good content.

Another weakness is what lies behind the pages:

  Q) How do I keep track of changes?
  A) By using two features accessible via the sidebar menu:
  the link to the RecentChanges page (limited to a week for visitors,
   90 days for logged-in users);
  the Subscribe option, which requests e-mail notification when the page is 
modified. 

With ~16½ thousand pages², and up to 90 days of time-ordered changes,
I would imagine it's difficult to keep track of what's up-to-date or
being worked on.

The Arch wiki pages have a discussion area where changes can be
debated and the page can be refined, as well as a History area
that I haven't seen (because I'm not registered on their system).

So they have different philosophies. Perhaps Debian puts more effort
into the packages themselves, the installer, and documentation like
the Reference Manual, Release Notes etc, whereas AIUI Arch relies
more on its wiki. And I think Debian has a much broader scope:
how many architectures does Arch support? Not even 32-bit PCs.

For all their faults, I think the two wikis complement each other
rather than trying to compete, and I use both, generally navigating
via search engines.

¹ The one at the bottom of the EditorGuide
  https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/EditorGuide

² There are far fewer content pages really, but the TitleIndex
  listing, which I counted, includes the name of all the people
  who edit the wiki. It would be nice to have them separated.

Cheers,
David.

Buster System hangs, requires hard reboot

[Ralph Katz]

Hi -- Please help me diagnose and fix this problem.

My five month old Dell laptop with updated firmware and new up-to-date
Buster completely hangs and requires a hard reboot after 7-40 days
uptime.  While reading something onscreen or away from the laptop, the
system hangs completely: screen freezes, keyboard is unresponsive, lid
close fails to sleep, can't ssh in, pings fail.  Hard reboot is required.

Actions taken:

- re-installed Buster twice over several months
- ran fsck.ext4 -y /dev/sda2  when fsck failed on boot
- ran bad blocks
- run smartmontools long test weekly; no errors reported in logs.

Sometimes there are errors in syslog like this before a crash:

> Apr  2 06:04:18 spike3 kernel: [539637.882916] EXT4-fs error (device sda2): 
> ext4_lookup:1590: inode #55838123: comm updatedb.mlocat: iget: checksum 
> invalid

Today there were no syslog errors for weeks before the system hung.
After rebooting, errors like these appeared:

> Apr 20 16:05:57 spike3 kernel: [  887.007328] EXT4-fs error (device sda2): 
> ext4_lookup:1590: inode #55842004: comm GMPThread: iget: checksum invalid
> Apr 20 16:08:53 spike3 kernel: [ 1062.821504] EXT4-fs error (device sda2): 
> ext4_lookup:1590: inode #55842002: comm DOM Worker: iget: checksum invalid

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance!
Ralph

Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[Russell L. Harris]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 04:15:00PM -0500, David Wright wrote:

In addition, if the original email contained a malicious gotcha, you
expose the recipient of the bounced email to the same risk that you
presumably have just avoided.


I am no expert on the matter.  However, my approach has been to
telephone the ISP or authority and discuss the matter, or else to send
a separate email detailing the problem.  Thereupon, the ISP or
authority typically requests that the message be bounced to them at a
specified address, and they are watching for it.

RLH

Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[David Wright]

On Mon 20 Apr 2020 at 19:36:40 (+), Russell L. Harris wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:53:47AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
[…]
> > It's always seemed futile to me to bounce an entire message back to
> > the sender: after all, they sent it, they know what was in it, and
> > have probably retained a copy (if it's non-trivial).
> > its usefulness if you work within a group of cooperating colleagues,
> > where each is taking responsibility for different aspects.
> 
> > Otherwise, forwarding seems more appropriate and polite. But there are
> > two forms of fowarding (at least in mutt): as a separate attachment,
> > or as part of your own email (like with top-posting). In the latter
> > case (with mutt), you can see that you're only forwarding whichever
> > parts of the original header that you were displaying at the time.
[…]
> As I understand it, BOUNCING or REDIRECTION relays a message in the
> most pristine form available, preserving the header, whereas
> FORWARDING allows you to make changes to the message.  This is (or
> should be) true, irrespective of the mail user agent.  I cannot speak
> with authority regarding the difference between REPLY and FORWARD.
> 
> If I receive spam and wish to report it to my ISP, I BOUNCE the
> message, so as not to disturb the "evidence" or "scene of the crime".

I remain unconvinced. If you forward an email as an attachment, then
its containment in the attachment protects it from modification.
OTOH if you bounce it, the header that you received can be modified,
and have lines added in the normal course of transit through MTAs.

> Likewise, a message which may be criminial in nature (threat,
> extortion, pornography), should be BOUNCED to law enforcement and to
> the ISP, to facilitate tracing.

In addition, if the original email contained a malicious gotcha, you
expose the recipient of the bounced email to the same risk that you
presumably have just avoided.

> A message may be BOUNCED or FORWARDED to anyone, including the sender
> (unless the sender has used a fictitious address, which typically is
> the case with malicious messages).
> 
> Neo-mutt documentation led me to believe that there is a "b" command
> (or something of the sort) for BOUNCE; but I did not find it, perhaps
> because I use the "Classic Dvorak" keymap.  I then discovered that
> commands not tied to a key can be executed with ":exec ".

or
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/03/msg00924.html

Cheers,
David.

Droidcam: Android phone as Debian webcam

[Rainer Dorsch]

Hi everybody,

droidcam is a small utility which converts an Android phone into a webcam for 
linux (connected by USB or Wifi). Since there is a webcam shortage right now 
and many people have Android phones, I thought I post my notes here for 
everybody who needs a webcam on a Debian 10 system. It worked for me with a 
Moto G4 plus with ArrowOS and a Google Pixel with the latest Android release 
for this device.

Technically droidcam implements a v4l2 kernel module which make the droidcam 
look like a local webcam. In addition, a  newer version of libjpeg62-turbo is 
needed. This I compiled from source to /opt, since I was not sure if I break 
something if I recompile the experimental package for buster and replace the 
buster package.

I built and installed the software in /opt as local install user, except the 
kernel module which needs to go at the regular place. This probalby could be 
done better, since there is a pull request which implements dkms usage.

To run the phone as webcam, the droidcam app needs to be installed on the 
Android phone and the droidcam-cli command needs to run on the Debian machine. 
That is all what is needed.

I hope this is useful for somebody.

Droidcam:
=
# apt-get build-dep libjpeg62-turbo
# apt-get install libswscale-dev gtk+-2.0 libavutil-dev
# mkdir /opt/libjpeg62-turbo-2.0.4/

=> I have a local user just to install software into /opt or /usr/local/ 
# chown install /opt/libjpeg62-turbo-2.0.4/
# cd /opt
# ln -s libjpeg62-turbo-2.0.4 libjpeg-turbo

As install user new libjepg62-turbo:
# su - install


install@gigabyte:~$ wget 
http://deb.debian.org/debian/pool/main/libj/libjpeg-turbo/libjpeg-turbo_2.0.4.orig.tar.gz
install@gigabyte:~$ tar xfz libjpeg-turbo_2.0.4.orig.tar.gz   
install@gigabyte:~$ mkdir build
install@gigabyte:~$ cd build/
install@gigabyte:~/build$ cmake -G"Unix Makefiles" cmake -
DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX=/opt/libjpeg62-turbo-2.0.4/ ../libjpeg-turbo-2.0.4
-- The C compiler identification is GNU 8.3.0
[...]
[...]
-- Build files have been written to: /home/install/build
install@gigabyte:~/build$ make
Scanning dependencies of target simd
[  0%] Building ASM_NASM object simd/CMakeFiles/simd.dir/x86_64/jsimdcpu.asm.o
[  0%] Building ASM_NASM object simd/CMakeFiles/simd.dir/x86_64/jfdctflt-
sse.asm.o
[  1%] Building ASM_NASM object simd/CMakeFiles/simd.dir/x86_64/jccolor-
sse2.asm.o
[...]
[ 97%] Built target djpeg
[ 98%] Built target jpegtran
[ 99%] Built target jcstest
[100%] Built target md5cmp
Install the project...
-- Install configuration: "Release"
[...]
-- Installing: /opt/libjpeg62-turbo-2.0.4/bin/jpegtran
-- Set runtime path of "/opt/libjpeg62-turbo-2.0.4/bin/jpegtran" to "/opt/
libjpeg62-turbo-2.0.4/lib"
install@gigabyte:~/build$ cd /opt/libjpeg62-turbo-2.0.4/
install@gigabyte:/opt/libjpeg62-turbo-2.0.4$ make test
[...]
install@gigabyte:~/build$ make install
[  8%] Built target simd
[...]


Install droidcam cli and v4l2 kernel module:




install@gigabyte:~/git$ git clone https://github.com/aramg/droidcam.git
Cloning into 'droidcam'...
remote: Enumerating objects: 66, done.
remote: Counting objects: 100% (66/66), done.
remote: Compressing objects: 100% (34/34), done.
remote: Total 293 (delta 25), reused 45 (delta 19), pack-reused 227
Receiving objects: 100% (293/293), 1.19 MiB | 2.65 MiB/s, done.
Resolving deltas: 100% (117/117), done.
install@gigabyte:~/git$

Adapt install paths:

install@gigabyte:~$ cd git/droidcam/
install@gigabyte:~/git/droidcam$ git diff
diff --git a/linux/Makefile b/linux/Makefile
index 134f723..541b06a 100644
--- a/linux/Makefile
+++ b/linux/Makefile
@@ -9,7 +9,8 @@
 CC= -no-pie
 GTK   = `pkg-config --libs --cflags gtk+-2.0`
 LIBS  = `pkg-config --libs libswscale libavutil`
-JPEG  = -I/opt/libjpeg-turbo/include /opt/libjpeg-turbo/lib`getconf 
LONG_BIT`/libturbojpeg.a
+#JPEG  = -I/opt/libjpeg-turbo/include /opt/libjpeg-turbo/lib`getconf 
LONG_BIT`/libturbojpeg.a
+JPEG  = -I/opt/libjpeg-turbo/include /opt/libjpeg-turbo/lib/libturbojpeg.a
 SRC  = src/connection.c src/decoder.c
 NO_WARN  = -Wno-pointer-to-int-cast -Wno-int-to-pointer-cast
 
diff --git a/linux/install b/linux/install
index 6189db5..a68db85 100755
--- a/linux/install
+++ b/linux/install
@@ -68,8 +68,8 @@ fi
 
 set -x
 cp "$V4L2_LOOPBACK_DIR/$V4L2_LOOPBACK_KO" $DRIVER_LOCATION
-cp droidcam /usr/bin/
-cp droidcam-cli /usr/bin/
+cp droidcam /usr/local/bin/
+cp droidcam-cli /usr/local/bin/
 set +x
 
 echo "Registering webcam device"
diff --git a/linux/uninstall b/linux/uninstall
index 9acc7b5..39c9344 100755
--- a/linux/uninstall
+++ b/linux/uninstall
@@ -4,7 +4,7 @@
 echo "Un-loading driver module"
 sudo rmmod v4l2loopback_dc
 echo "Removing files"
-sudo rm -f /usr/bin/droidcam*
+sudo rm -f /usr/local/bin/droidcam*
 sudo rm -f /lib/modules/`uname -r`/kernel/drivers/media/video/v4l2loopback-
dc.ko
 
 etc_modules() {
install@gigabyte:~/git/droidcam$




install@gigabyte:~/git/droidcam$ cd linux/
install@gigabyte:~

Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[tomas]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 07:36:40PM +, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:53:47AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> >>Oh, this was explicitly about Thunderbird's ":exec bounce-message"?
> >>I missed that bit, sorry for that. Will re-read.
> 
> >If this is so, then : must be an active character [...]

[...]

> I think I misspoke, saying "Thunderbird" rather than "neo-mutt"; the
> ":exec bounce-message" is the way to BOUNCE in neo-mutt, not in
> Thunderbird.  Forgive me.

Phew! I already pictured myself trying to find an :exec button
in Thunderbird. I'd come back with strange questions ;-D

Thanks for clarification, cheers
-- tomás


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[Russell L. Harris]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:53:47AM -0500, David Wright wrote:

Oh, this was explicitly about Thunderbird's ":exec bounce-message"?
I missed that bit, sorry for that. Will re-read.



If this is so, then : must be an active character in order to
introduce the string "exec". I see no mention of : in that role on
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/keyboard-shortcuts
so we need some clarification.



It's always seemed futile to me to bounce an entire message back to
the sender: after all, they sent it, they know what was in it, and
have probably retained a copy (if it's non-trivial).
its usefulness if you work within a group of cooperating colleagues,
where each is taking responsibility for different aspects.



Otherwise, forwarding seems more appropriate and polite. But there are
two forms of fowarding (at least in mutt): as a separate attachment,
or as part of your own email (like with top-posting). In the latter
case (with mutt), you can see that you're only forwarding whichever
parts of the original header that you were displaying at the time.


I think I misspoke, saying "Thunderbird" rather than "neo-mutt"; the
":exec bounce-message" is the way to BOUNCE in neo-mutt, not in
Thunderbird.  Forgive me.

BOUNCE also is termed REDIRECT.  To REDIRECT in Thunderbird, it
appears necessary to install a plug-in.

As I understand it, BOUNCING or REDIRECTION relays a message in the
most pristine form available, preserving the header, whereas
FORWARDING allows you to make changes to the message.  This is (or
should be) true, irrespective of the mail user agent.  I cannot speak
with authority regarding the difference between REPLY and FORWARD.

If I receive spam and wish to report it to my ISP, I BOUNCE the
message, so as not to disturb the "evidence" or "scene of the crime".
Likewise, a message which may be criminial in nature (threat,
extortion, pornography), should be BOUNCED to law enforcement and to
the ISP, to facilitate tracing.

A message may be BOUNCED or FORWARDED to anyone, including the sender
(unless the sender has used a fictitious address, which typically is
the case with malicious messages).

Neo-mutt documentation led me to believe that there is a "b" command
(or something of the sort) for BOUNCE; but I did not find it, perhaps
because I use the "Classic Dvorak" keymap.  I then discovered that
commands not tied to a key can be executed with ":exec ".

RLH

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Celejar]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:19:13 +0300
Andrei POPESCU  wrote:

...

> about Debian on non-Debian platforms (like StackExchange), the other one 
> being the Arch's wiki (significantly better than Debian's).

Everyone loves the Arch wiki - I've long wondered why it's so much
better than ours. Do they just have more community-minded users?

Celejar

Re: For all specimens of Homo sapiens - about COVID19

[Curt]

On 2020-04-20, Steve McIntyre  wrote:
> n...@n0nb.us wrote:
>>
>>Seems our old friend Bill Gates (remember him?) is behind much of this
>>push for a required vaccination and also, according to some sources,
>>wants everyone to be chipped, as in having a permanent RF ID microchip
>>embedded somewhere on the body.  Will there be the ability to opt out of
>>this chipping nonsense?  Stay tuned.
>
> This is very much off-topic for debian-user, please take it elsewhere?
>

I was going to opine precisely in your direction but then told myself
that Andrei had just published an OP whose assertion was that one
shouldn't respond to spam, because in doing so you screw and skew the
filtering out process vis-à-vis the archives (which OP quickly and
irrevocably and kind of dumbly devolved into a thread about "bounce")
and that the original article here was surely 100% bona fide spam (a
mere glance at the subject line being sufficient to arrive at that
determination).

Isn't it? Of course, you're not Andrei, either. 

Re: Netbeans/Java Tutorial - Hangs

[Kent West]

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:26 PM local10  wrote:

>
> > Tutorial = https://netbeans.org/kb/docs/java/quickstart.html
> >
> > It's like the process to create the new project hangs.>
> > Ideas? Suggestions? (I'm pretty green/new with both IDEs and Java.)
>
>
> You'll have more luck asking this question on the Netbeans user list.
> Possible reason: check what JDK you use to run Netbeans 10 and whether it
> can run properly on JDK 11 or 15.
>
> Regards,
>
>
Thank you for the response.

I didn't have a strong drive to get too familiar with either Java (I can do
"Hello, World" without an IDE) or Netbeans (or Eclipse, which I couldn't
get to work either), and after looking at my problem just a little (at the
log files, etc, and how much *stuff* was in the background), I'm reminded
of how much me and my fellow staff hated trying to keep our university's
enterprise software (Banner) working over the past twenty years because of
Java/version compatibility issues, and just realized, "Why? Why would I
want to support that morass of fragile complexity?" The fact that neither
Eclipse nor NetBeans works "out of the box" on Debian just adds to that
sentiment.

I think I'll stick with tinkering in Python, Bash, C, and Julia, at least
for now.

-- 
Kent West<")))><
Westing Peacefully - http://kentwest.blogspot.com

Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[David Wright]

On Mon 20 Apr 2020 at 12:27:55 (+0200), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 09:57:34AM +, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:43:40AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > >>Thunderbird provides the command ":exec bounce-message".
> > >
> > >Oh, wow. Thanks for the hint. Does anyone know what that command
> > >does?
> > 
> > Someone provided a detailed explaination of bounce a few messages
> > earlier in this thread.  But briefly, bounce sends the message,
> > intact, complete with attachments, if any, just as if you were a relay
> > station.
> 
> Oh, this was explicitly about Thunderbird's ":exec bounce-message"?
> I missed that bit, sorry for that. Will re-read.

If this is so, then : must be an active character in order to
introduce the string "exec". I see no mention of : in that role on
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/keyboard-shortcuts
so we need some clarification.

> > However, if you wish to make additions or modifications to the
> > message, you use forward.  Forward is like a reply, except it is
> > sent to a third party, rather than back to the sender.
> 
> "back to the sender" makes me unsure now: does ":exec bounce-message"
> let you choose the target, or is it just "back to sender"?

It's always seemed futile to me to bounce an entire message back to
the sender: after all, they sent it, they know what was in it, and
have probably retained a copy (if it's non-trivial).

By the time you—the user, using a MUA—receive an email, it's
rather late in the day to say that it's undeliverable because,
by definition, it's been delivered—to you.

> I understand "forward": you get to write a message and send the
> original wrapped in a MIME part, which would be OK (provided the
> receiver can handle that).

With bouncing in the sense of batting it somewhere else, I can see
its usefulness if you work within a group of cooperating colleagues,
where each is taking responsibility for different aspects.

Otherwise, forwarding seems more appropriate and polite. But there are
two forms of fowarding (at least in mutt): as a separate attachment,
or as part of your own email (like with top-posting). In the latter
case (with mutt), you can see that you're only forwarding whichever
parts of the original header that you were displaying at the time.

Whenever I reported spam/infected emails at work, I always used the
attachment mode, in order to make it clear that I had received the
email (which should have been filtered out by the servers already)
and wasn't myself spamming from an infected system.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Accessing security.debian.org through https

[Reco]

Hi.

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 08:11:29AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 09:13:43PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > Technically, you can: https://deb.debian.org/debian-security
> > Not that using it will not be useful in any way as currently it just
> > serves an HTTP redirect to http://security.debian.org
> 
> That doesn't seem to be true.  As I said last week, my workplace's
> firewall has recently started blocking Debian's package mirrors, but
> 
> deb https://deb.debian.org/debian-security buster/updates main contrib 
> non-free

I stand corrected.
It's https://deb.debian.org/debian-security verbatim that does the
redirect.
An attempt to get any file via this apt-proxy-ng instance will result in
a file served by HTTPS.
For instance, this should work without any redirect:

https://deb.debian.org/debian-security/pool/updates/main/c/chromium/chromium_80.0.3987.162-1~deb10u1.dsc

Reco

Please, let this thread die [was: For all specimens of Homo sapiens - about COVID19]

[tomas]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 06:54:57AM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:

[...]

> Ironic...

Whatever. Please, folks. Let this thread die already.

Thanks
-- tomás


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Re: For all specimens of Homo sapiens - about COVID19

[Steve McIntyre]

n...@n0nb.us wrote:
>
>Seems our old friend Bill Gates (remember him?) is behind much of this
>push for a required vaccination and also, according to some sources,
>wants everyone to be chipped, as in having a permanent RF ID microchip
>embedded somewhere on the body.  Will there be the ability to opt out of
>this chipping nonsense?  Stay tuned.

This is very much off-topic for debian-user, please take it elsewhere?

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
  Armed with "Valor": "Centurion" represents quality of Discipline,
  Honor, Integrity and Loyalty. Now you don't have to be a Caesar to
  concord the digital world while feeling safe and proud.

Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[The Wanderer]

On 2020-04-20 at 06:27, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 09:57:34AM +, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:43:40AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

>>> Oh, wow. Thanks for the hint. Does anyone know what that command 
>>> does?
>> 
>> Someone provided a detailed explaination of bounce a few messages 
>> earlier in this thread.  But briefly, bounce sends the message, 
>> intact, complete with attachments, if any, just as if you were a
>> relay station.
> 
> Oh, this was explicitly about Thunderbird's ":exec bounce-message"? I
> missed that bit, sorry for that. Will re-read.

I don't think it was.

>> However, if you wish to make additions or modifications to the 
>> message, you use forward.  Forward is like a reply, except it is 
>> sent to a third party, rather than back to the sender.
> 
> "back to the sender" makes me unsure now: does ":exec
> bounce-message" let you choose the target, or is it just "back to
> sender"?

I think there's a bit of confusion here. I believe the mention of "back
to the sender" is in regard to "reply", not to ":exec bounce-message" or
to any bounce functionality.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[Curt]

On 2020-04-20, to...@tuxteam.de  wrote:
>
> "back to the sender" makes me unsure now: does ":exec bounce-message"
> let you choose the target, or is it just "back to sender"?
>

What did I tell you?

Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[Curt]

On 2020-04-20, elvis  wrote:
>
> On 19/4/20 8:35 pm, Liam O'Toole wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Apr, 2020 at 19:11:55 +1000, elvis wrote:
>>> On 19/4/20 5:03 pm, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>>   
>> [...]
>>
 Note: "bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some mail clients and is
 *not* forwarding (should probably mention this in the wiki).U
>>> In over 25 years of email I have never come across this, so much to learn so
>>> little time.
>> The idea is common enough to mutt users. You simply type 'b' on an email
>
>
> I went straight from Pine to Eudora :-)

You *very* simply press 'b' in alpine, too (by the guy who invented
IMAP, BTW) and the message bounces away quite lightly without a trace
(which kind of bothers me, actually, and I wonder if there's an antidote for
that, though I don't use the feature often, in the beginning because I
didn't know exactly what the hell 'bounce' in the sense 'redirection'
was).

Simple is as simple does, I guess.


>
>> and enter the recipient address when prompted.
>>
>>> Any idea how to do this in Thunderbird?
>> Alas, despite having used thunderbird also for many years I have never
>> come across this feature.
>>


-- 

Re: Accessing security.debian.org through https

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 09:13:43PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> Technically, you can: https://deb.debian.org/debian-security
> Not that using it will not be useful in any way as currently it just
> serves an HTTP redirect to http://security.debian.org

That doesn't seem to be true.  As I said last week, my workplace's
firewall has recently started blocking Debian's package mirrors, but

deb https://deb.debian.org/debian-security buster/updates main contrib 
non-free

works for me.

Re: For all specimens of Homo sapiens - about COVID19

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2020 19 Apr 02:59 -0500, aces and eights wrote:
> The elite types that want to control the society outside of the national
> governments are ridiculing talk of these as they want to vaccinate
> everybody.

Seems our old friend Bill Gates (remember him?) is behind much of this
push for a required vaccination and also, according to some sources,
wants everyone to be chipped, as in having a permanent RF ID microchip
embedded somewhere on the body.  Will there be the ability to opt out of
this chipping nonsense?  Stay tuned.

> Interesting times.

Ironic...

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819



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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[tomas]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 09:57:34AM +, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:43:40AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >>Thunderbird provides the command ":exec bounce-message".
> >
> >Oh, wow. Thanks for the hint. Does anyone know what that command
> >does?
> 
> Someone provided a detailed explaination of bounce a few messages
> earlier in this thread.  But briefly, bounce sends the message,
> intact, complete with attachments, if any, just as if you were a relay
> station.

Oh, this was explicitly about Thunderbird's ":exec bounce-message"?
I missed that bit, sorry for that. Will re-read.

> However, if you wish to make additions or modifications to the
> message, you use forward.  Forward is like a reply, except it is
> sent to a third party, rather than back to the sender.

"back to the sender" makes me unsure now: does ":exec bounce-message"
let you choose the target, or is it just "back to sender"?

I understand "forward": you get to write a message and send the
original wrapped in a MIME part, which would be OK (provided the
receiver can handle that).

Cheers
-- t


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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[The Wanderer]

(Extraneous quoted misattribution removed for clarity, after having
reviewed the thread to determine who actually wrote what.)

On 2020-04-20 at 05:15, Russell L. Harris wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 05:55:07PM +1000, elvis wrote:
> 
 Any idea how to do this in Thunderbird?
> 
> Thunderbird provides the command ":exec bounce-message".

In what version, and where?

I'm running an older version (because of concern about undesirable UI
changes, which I haven't yet gotten around to setting up an environment
to validate without risking my live mail store), and as far as I can
see, there's no dedicated place to type in commands - and typing ':exec'
(sans quotes) into the general UI, with a message selected, seems to
result in the characters being treated as individual keyboard shortcuts.

I've been using Thunderbird for quite possibly decades by now (and
definitely so if you add in its suite-integrated predecessors), and I
think this is the first time I've seen a suggestion of a text-command
interface inside it. If there's one hidden in the version I'm using, I'd
like to know where to find it; if one was added in a newer version, I'd
like to know when they added it, and to some extent why.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[Russell L. Harris]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:43:40AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

Thunderbird provides the command ":exec bounce-message".


Oh, wow. Thanks for the hint. Does anyone know what that command
does?


Someone provided a detailed explaination of bounce a few messages
earlier in this thread.  But briefly, bounce sends the message,
intact, complete with attachments, if any, just as if you were a relay
station.

However, if you wish to make additions or modifications to the
message, you use forward.  Forward is like a reply, except it is
sent to a third party, rather than back to the sender.

RLH

Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[tomas]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 09:15:32AM +, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 05:55:07PM +1000, elvis wrote:
> >>>On 19/4/20 5:03 pm, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >>>Any idea how to do this in Thunderbird?
> 
> Thunderbird provides the command ":exec bounce-message".

Oh, wow. Thanks for the hint. Does anyone know what that command
does?

Thanks
-- tomás


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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[Russell L. Harris]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 05:55:07PM +1000, elvis wrote:

On 19/4/20 5:03 pm, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
Any idea how to do this in Thunderbird?


Thunderbird provides the command ":exec bounce-message".

Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[Curt]

On 2020-04-19,   wrote:
>
>> My half-assed understanding of bouncing is this: When you get a
>> message that wasn't really meant for you, and you know where it ought
>> to go, then you should "bounce" it there [...]
>
> Correct. This was bounce's original purpose. It has the property
> that it passes the original mail's headers on, and thus its
> utility for some secondary purposes:
>

We had a thread a while back with Reco and Jon Dowland about the bounce
feature; alpine has it, Kmail has it, Thunderbird needs an add-on, and
Mutt, the email client of the stars, of course, has had bounce since
Methuselah was in diapers.

At any rate, as bounce means more currently, IMVHO, a notice from an email
system to the sender of an email that said email is undeliverable, using
the term for a redirection seems fraught with the danger of
misconstrual. But I guess these are dangerous times, n'est-ce pas?

Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[elvis]

On 19/4/20 8:35 pm, Liam O'Toole wrote:

On Sun, 19 Apr, 2020 at 19:11:55 +1000, elvis wrote:

On 19/4/20 5:03 pm, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
  
[...]



Note: "bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some mail clients and is
*not* forwarding (should probably mention this in the wiki).U

In over 25 years of email I have never come across this, so much to learn so
little time.

The idea is common enough to mutt users. You simply type 'b' on an email



I went straight from Pine to Eudora :-)



and enter the recipient address when prompted.


Any idea how to do this in Thunderbird?

Alas, despite having used thunderbird also for many years I have never
come across this feature.


--
The stage is level when the drummer drools out both sides of his mouth

Re: Reporting bugs in Stable

[Ihor Antonov]

On Sunday, 19 April 2020 23:30:43 PDT Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Du, 19 apr 20, 13:28:57, Ihor Antonov wrote:
> > Reporting from Debian Sid, everything is quite stable. I do run ZFS on
> > root
> > and make snapshots prior to big upgrades as a pre-caution, but so far
> > I did not have a reason to revert anything.
> 
> It's just a matter of time. Even if Debian does much more automated
> testing now than in the past some serious issues could still slip
> through.

I know, for me this is exactly the point: unstable becomes stable only if 
someone uses it and finds out issues, reports/fixes them. 

> > I was using Archlinux for a long time, and I can say that Sid feels
> > more stable than Archlinux, although software is less fresh. But
> > overall quite usable as a daily driver on my Lenovo X1 Extreme
> 
> As far as I know Archlinux is also not a beginners distro (like Mint or
> Ubuntu), so issues that may appear trivial to you can be major
> showstoppers for others.

Absolutely, no disputing that. 
I was trying to make a point that "unstable", despite scary name is quite 
usable. Also as someone mentioned - backports should be the first option to try 
if you run stable. I run a few servers stable + backports and everything is 
rock-solid.


But I am afraid that we have deviated from the original topic.  If I 
understood Carl correctly - he was expressing his pain because of  
bureaucratic scrutiny of filing bugs to stable that brings absolutely no 
results. I can't help much here as I am just a mere user, but IMHO if software 
in stable does not work - it is a severe bug. It has to be either fixed or 
software should be removed from stable.


Thanks

Ihor Antonov

Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

[tomas]

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 08:09:28PM -0600, Charles Curley wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 21:07:42 -0400
> Doug McGarrett  wrote:
> 
> > This may be a little off-topic, but it seems to me that any email
> > from a .nl address is spam. Am I wrong? (I just erase from the top!)
> 
> Yes, you are wrong. There are plenty of legitimate users in the
> Netherlands.

Seconded. I don't even know how Doug arrived at that conclusion.

Cheers
-- t


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