Re: Web page management. Was: Re: Debian release criteria.

[Max Nikulin]

On 30/01/2023 10:32, Celejar wrote:

For those who may not be aware, the developer of uBlock Origin and
uMatrix, Raymond Hill, has ceased work on uMatrix:

https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uMatrix-issues/issues/291#issuecomment-694988696


It is really sour. On a lot of sites, including github, high CPU usage 
in the case of disabled JavaScript caused by loading animations: CSS or 
gifs.

Re: Web page management. Was: Re: Debian release criteria.

[Celejar]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 14:14:22 -0500
Dan Ritter  wrote:

> pe...@easthope.ca wrote: 
> > Unwieldly References list truncated.
> > 
> > From: Stefan Monnier 
> > Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 12:45:52 -0500
> > > I use uMatrix, which I find strikes a fairly good balance between
> > > keeping sites working and letting me control how much crap is loaded.
> > 
> > Another helpful add-on.  Thanks!
> > 
> > A feature (gingerbread) I'd rather not have in Wikipedia is the popup 
> > article preview from hovering the pointer on a link.  Can uMatrix 
> > block that?  How?
> 
> Yes, because uBlock Origin is the less capable sibling and uBO
> can do that. Just block JavaScript on the wikipedia.org domain.
> The site remains largely functional but does not do previews.

For those who may not be aware, the developer of uBlock Origin and
uMatrix, Raymond Hill, has ceased work on uMatrix:

https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uMatrix-issues/issues/291#issuecomment-694988696
https://github.com/gorhill/uMatrix
https://www.ghacks.net/2020/09/20/umatrix-development-has-ended/

-- 
Celejar

Re: Software usage. Was Re: Debian release criteria.

[David Wright]

On Sat 21 Jan 2023 at 08:20:00 (-0800), pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> From: 
> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2023 20:09:20 +0100
> > Know what? Those "resources" to be "allocated" are you and me. 
> 
> Documentation?  The Web?  Most of the front page, 
> https://www.debian.org , is occupied with graphics. =8~/  A link 
> directly to https://wiki.debian.org would make sense.  "User support" 
> is OK but a link directly to wiki.debian.org can easily fit.

Yes, perhaps suggest this change to the editors:

  "Alternatively, you can send an email to one of the following addresses:

  "Web pages editors
  package: www.debian.org
  debian-...@lists.debian.org"

(quoting from https://www.debian.org/contact)

Cheers,
David.

Software usage. Was Re: Debian release criteria.

[peter]

From: 
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2023 20:09:20 +0100
> Know what? Those "resources" to be "allocated" are you and me. 

Documentation?  The Web?  Most of the front page, 
https://www.debian.org , is occupied with graphics. =8~/  A link 
directly to https://wiki.debian.org would make sense.  "User support" 
is OK but a link directly to wiki.debian.org can easily fit.

TTFN,  ... P.



- 
mobile: +1 778 951 5147
  VoIP: +1 604 670 0140
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:PeterEasthope

Re: Web page management. Was: Re: Debian release criteria.

[Dan Ritter]

pe...@easthope.ca wrote: 
> Unwieldly References list truncated.
> 
> From: Stefan Monnier 
> Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 12:45:52 -0500
> > I use uMatrix, which I find strikes a fairly good balance between
> > keeping sites working and letting me control how much crap is loaded.
> 
> Another helpful add-on.  Thanks!
> 
> A feature (gingerbread) I'd rather not have in Wikipedia is the popup 
> article preview from hovering the pointer on a link.  Can uMatrix 
> block that?  How?

Yes, because uBlock Origin is the less capable sibling and uBO
can do that. Just block JavaScript on the wikipedia.org domain.
The site remains largely functional but does not do previews.

-dsr-

Web page management. Was: Re: Debian release criteria.

[peter]

Unwieldly References list truncated.

From: Stefan Monnier 
Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 12:45:52 -0500
> I use uMatrix, which I find strikes a fairly good balance between
> keeping sites working and letting me control how much crap is loaded.

Another helpful add-on.  Thanks!

A feature (gingerbread) I'd rather not have in Wikipedia is the popup 
article preview from hovering the pointer on a link.  Can uMatrix 
block that?  How?

 Thx,  ... P.
  
- 
mobile: +1 778 951 5147
  VoIP: +1 604 670 0140
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:PeterEasthope

Re: [OT] coo, was Re: Debian release criteria.

[Curt]

On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs  wrote:
>
> To heck with it, let's just fall back on Allan Sherman's
> description of a dejected man from Mars searching for his
> girlfriend, who's...
>
>  Eight foot two, solid blue
>  Five transistors in each shoe
>  Has anybody seen my gal?
>
>  Lucite nose, rustproof toes
>  And when her antenna glows
>  She's the cutest Martian gal
>
>You know she promised me, recently
>She wouldn't stray
>But came the dawn, she was gone
>Eighteen billion miles away
>
>  Her steering wheel has sex appeal
>  Her evening gown is stainless steel
>  Has anybody seen my gal?
>
>
>  How I miss all the bliss
>  Of her sweet hydraulic kiss
>  Has anybody seen my gal?
>
>  Lovely shape, custom built
>  Squeeze her wrong and she says TILT
>  Has anybody seen my gal?
>
>She does the cutest tricks with her six
>Stereo ears
>When she walks by, spacemen cry
>'Specially when she shifts her gears
>
>  If she's found, run like mad
>  Put her on a launching pad
>  Down at Cape Can-av-er-al
>  And shoot me back my cutie
>  My supersonic beauty
>  Send me back my Martian gal

I don't remember that one. But I do remember:

 Hello Muddah, hello Faddah
 Here I am at Camp Grenada
 Camp is very entertaining
 And they say we'll have some fun if it stops raining...

I don't why, but I get a kick out of that. I personally went to Wally
Moon's Baseball Camp in Covina when I was a kid. Didn't get much rain
there.  In fact, I recall it being quite hot and dusty.

Re: Web functionality; was Re: Debian release criteria.

[tomas]

On Sun, Jan 08, 2023 at 07:53:11AM -0800, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> David & all,
> 
> Earlier from peter,
> > > Bulk of the software and frequent updates are evident but what changes 
> > > in functionality?  The Web site of my credit union works as it did 
> > > five years ago.
> 
> From: David Wright 
> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 21:46:39 -0600
> > What's that got to do with Firefox? OK, it's good that the CU hasn't
> > run with every fad that some web developers seem to want, so that
> > they get what I call a high "coo-rating". (Coo, look at that.)
> 
> Yes, good that the CU Web site is relatively stable.  That was a 
> secondary point.
> 
> My primary interest: if many Web sites appear and perform as five 
> years ago, what is the need for the frequent updates?  A bug needs 
> repair a.s.a.p.  A bug compromising security needs repair sooner.  
> Are most Firefox updates security critical?

Don't forget that HTML5 is a "living standard" -- the WHATWG euphemism
for "we change the standard from under your bottom whenever one of
our more powerful members feels like it".

If Firefox wants to call itself standards compliant, it has to follow
suit. If it isn't standadts compliant, we are left with one choice:
Chrome (I don't count Apple, that's even worse).

I do disagree with much of what the Mozilla foundation does, and at
the end, they see the world through ad-industry coloured goggles, but
they are the last credible ditch we have. Google has succeeded in
cornering the Internet -- and the worst: many people seem to enjoy
it.

You thought the situation with Microsoft and computing in the 1980s
and 1990s was grotesque? It's much, much worse these days. The
difference is that the monopoly watchdogs are fast asleep at the
wheel these days.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: [OT] coo, was Re: Debian release criteria.

[David Wright]

On Sat 07 Jan 2023 at 17:52:43 (-), Curt wrote:
> On 2023-01-07, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> >
> > To an American audience, the meaning is quite different.  We only use
> > "coo" to describe the noise made by a dove, or as an (urban) slang
> > term which is a shortened form of "cool".
> >
> 
> I haven't been following,

… which might mean you missed the ² in
coo² (slang) interjection

> but coo to me is the sound a pigeon makes,

… which, of course, is coo¹, the first headword.

Cheers,
David.

Re: [OT] coo, was Re: Debian release criteria.

[David Wright]

On Fri 06 Jan 2023 at 23:41:25 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jan 06, 2023 at 01:26:54PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > > > Rather,
> > > > 
> > > >   coo² (slang) interjection, expressive of surprise. (Chambers)
> > > > 
> > > > and this has been around far longer than my lifetime.
> 
> > > When using slang, the current meaning is the one that will be understood
> > > by your audience.  Not some archaic meaning.
> > 
> > Err, where did you get the idea that coo is archaic?
> 
> The part where you said this particular usage is older than yourself.

Yes, it joins the 99.9% of the words we use, whose current usage
predates our own generation, and yet are not archaic.

> > We Brits use the word "Coo"; I guess the equivalent here is "Gee",
> > which sounds very American to British ears of my generation.
> 
> Ahhh, it's a regional usage, then.  My mistake.
> 
> To an American audience, the meaning is quite different.  We only use
> "coo" to describe the noise made by a dove, or as an (urban) slang
> term which is a shortened form of "cool".
> 
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coo

So I'm expected to check my use of slang against a dictionary that's
receiving over 2000 entries per day at times, and where most of the
definitions are not expected to appear in standard dictionaries.
This ultra-contemporary slang, much of which I neither hear nor read,
is supposed to be more familiar to people here for whom English is a
second language. OTOH, reputable, edited dictionaries, printed and
online, are unlikely to be consulted by such people, yes?

>   A slightly shortened version of "cool"
>   used by only the cooest people, coo is the best way to describe
↑↑
>   something that is completely awesome.
> 
> And so on.

Ah, awesome, another word that has had all meaning drained from it
by overuse.

  Receptionist: Do you have your insurance card with you?
Me: Let's see … ah, yes, here it is.
  Receptionist: Awesome!
  (uttered 2022-12-28 ~16:00)

Cheers,
David.

Re: Web functionality; was Re: Debian release criteria.

[David Wright]

On Sun 08 Jan 2023 at 07:53:11 (-0800), pe...@easthope.ca wrote:

> My primary interest: if many Web sites appear and perform as five 
> years ago, what is the need for the frequent updates?  A bug needs 
> repair a.s.a.p.  A bug compromising security needs repair sooner.  
> Are most Firefox updates security critical?

Judge for yourself:

$ zcat /usr/share/doc/firefox-esr/changelog.Debian.gz | head -n 240 | grep -e 
CVE -e '^ --'
CVE-2022-46880, CVE-2022-46872, CVE-2022-46881, CVE-2022-46874,
CVE-2022-46882, CVE-2022-46878.
 -- Mike Hommey   Wed, 14 Dec 2022 07:48:39 +0900
CVE-2022-45403, CVE-2022-45404, CVE-2022-45405, CVE-2022-45406,
CVE-2022-45408, CVE-2022-45409, CVE-2022-45410, CVE-2022-45411,
CVE-2022-45412, CVE-2022-45416, CVE-2022-45418, CVE-2022-45420,
CVE-2022-45421.
 -- Mike Hommey   Wed, 16 Nov 2022 06:20:30 +0900
CVE-2022-42927, CVE-2022-42928, CVE-2022-42929, CVE-2022-42932.
 -- Mike Hommey   Wed, 19 Oct 2022 05:04:39 +0900
CVE-2022-40959, CVE-2022-40960, CVE-2022-40958, CVE-2022-40956,
CVE-2022-40957, CVE-2022-40962.
 -- Mike Hommey   Wed, 21 Sep 2022 06:58:15 +0900
CVE-2022-38472, CVE-2022-38473, CVE-2022-38477, CVE-2022-38478.
 -- Mike Hommey   Wed, 24 Aug 2022 06:35:58 +0900
 -- Mike Hommey   Mon, 15 Aug 2022 15:46:49 +0900
CVE-2022-36319, CVE-2022-36318, CVE-2022-36315, CVE-2022-36316,
CVE-2022-36320, CVE-2022-2505.
 -- Mike Hommey   Sun, 14 Aug 2022 16:59:19 +0900
CVE-2022-34479, CVE-2022-34470, CVE-2022-34468, CVE-2022-34482,
CVE-2022-34483, CVE-2022-34476, CVE-2022-34481, CVE-2022-34474,
CVE-2022-34471, CVE-2022-34472, CVE-2022-2200, CVE-2022-34480,
CVE-2022-34477, CVE-2022-34475, CVE-2022-34473, CVE-2022-34484,
CVE-2022-34485.
 -- Mike Hommey   Wed, 29 Jun 2022 07:41:32 +0900
 -- Mike Hommey   Fri, 10 Jun 2022 06:24:01 +0900
CVE-2022-31736, CVE-2022-31737, CVE-2022-31738, CVE-2022-31740,
CVE-2022-31741, CVE-2022-31742, CVE-2022-31743, CVE-2022-31744,
CVE-2022-31745, CVE-2022-1919, CVE-2022-31747, CVE-2022-31748.
 -- Mike Hommey   Wed, 01 Jun 2022 06:07:37 +0900
  * Fixes for mfsa2022-19, also known as CVE-2022-1802 and CVE-2022-1529.
 -- Mike Hommey   Sat, 21 May 2022 07:32:04 +0900
CVE-2022-29914, CVE-2022-29909, CVE-2022-29916, CVE-2022-29911,
CVE-2022-29912, CVE-2022-29915, CVE-2022-29917, CVE-2022-29918.
 -- Mike Hommey   Wed, 04 May 2022 08:48:41 +0900
CVE-2022-1097, CVE-2022-28281, CVE-2022-28282, CVE-2022-28283,
CVE-2022-28284, CVE-2022-28285, CVE-2022-28286, CVE-2022-28287,
CVE-2022-24713, CVE-2022-28289, CVE-2022-28288.
 -- Mike Hommey   Wed, 06 Apr 2022 09:04:22 +0900
 -- Mike Hommey   Thu, 10 Mar 2022 09:09:43 +0900
CVE-2022-26383, CVE-2022-26384, CVE-2022-26387, CVE-2022-26381,
CVE-2022-26382, CVE-2022-26385, CVE-2022-0843.
  * Fixes for mfsa2022-09, also known as: CVE-2022-26485, CVE-2022-26486.
 -- Mike Hommey   Wed, 09 Mar 2022 07:09:27 +0900
CVE-2022-22754, CVE-2022-22755, CVE-2022-22756, CVE-2022-22759,
CVE-2022-22760, CVE-2022-22761, CVE-2022-22764, CVE-2022-0511.
 -- Mike Hommey   Wed, 09 Feb 2022 07:53:42 +0900
 -- Mike Hommey   Mon, 31 Jan 2022 06:21:31 +0900
 -- Mike Hommey   Sat, 15 Jan 2022 07:41:14 +0900
CVE-2022-22743, CVE-2022-22742, CVE-2022-22741, CVE-2022-22740,
CVE-2022-22738, CVE-2022-22737, CVE-2021-4140, CVE-2022-22748,
CVE-2022-22745, CVE-2022-22747, CVE-2022-22739, CVE-2022-22751,
CVE-2022-22752.
 -- Mike Hommey   Wed, 12 Jan 2022 08:03:30 +0900
$ 

Cheers,
David.

Web functionality; was Re: Debian release criteria.

[peter]

David & all,

Earlier from peter,
> > Bulk of the software and frequent updates are evident but what changes 
> > in functionality?  The Web site of my credit union works as it did 
> > five years ago.

From: David Wright 
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 21:46:39 -0600
> What's that got to do with Firefox? OK, it's good that the CU hasn't
> run with every fad that some web developers seem to want, so that
> they get what I call a high "coo-rating". (Coo, look at that.)

Yes, good that the CU Web site is relatively stable.  That was a 
secondary point.

My primary interest: if many Web sites appear and perform as five 
years ago, what is the need for the frequent updates?  A bug needs 
repair a.s.a.p.  A bug compromising security needs repair sooner.  
Are most Firefox updates security critical?

Bigger software has more opportunities for security compromise.  A 
genuine interest in security should motivate a lean browser for 
security critical purposes.  I'd prefer to access the CU with Dillo.   
Unfortunately it gets ... no response.  =8~/

> Sure, [Wikipedia pages] tend to be no more complex than required for 
> what's being displayed. I assume that's their policy, very sensible.

Wikimedia and Debian get gold stars for keeping their Web sites "in 
house". They don't invoke background access to 3rd party pages far and 
wide.  The policy deserves acknowledgement.

Thx, ... P.

- 
mobile: +1 778 951 5147
  VoIP: +1 604 670 0140
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:PeterEasthope

Re: [OT] coo, was Re: Debian release criteria.

[Charlie Gibbs]

Re: [OT] coo, was Re: Debian release criteria.

On Sat Jan  7 13:37:31 2023 cu...@free.fr wrote:

> On 2023-01-07, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
>
>> To an American audience, the meaning is quite different.
>> We only use "coo" to describe the noise made by a dove,
>> or as an (urban) slang term which is a shortened form of "cool".
>
> I haven't been following, but coo to me is the sound a pigeon
> makes, or the soft, endearing sound some amorous person might
> emit in the presence (or the ear) of the loved one, as in the
> lyrics of "Five Foot Two, Eyes of Blue":
>
> But could she love, could she woo?
> Could she, could she, could she coo?

I always thought it was "Coochie, coochie, coochie coo",
although a web search suggests that your version is the
correct one.  "Coochie-coo" is often said when tickling
an infant, although I've heard it used in a more adult
context, usually when tickling more delicate parts.

To heck with it, let's just fall back on Allan Sherman's
description of a dejected man from Mars searching for his
girlfriend, who's...

Eight foot two, solid blue
Five transistors in each shoe
Has anybody seen my gal?

Lucite nose, rustproof toes
And when her antenna glows
She's the cutest Martian gal

  You know she promised me, recently
  She wouldn't stray
  But came the dawn, she was gone
  Eighteen billion miles away

Her steering wheel has sex appeal
Her evening gown is stainless steel
Has anybody seen my gal?


How I miss all the bliss
Of her sweet hydraulic kiss
Has anybody seen my gal?

Lovely shape, custom built
Squeeze her wrong and she says TILT
Has anybody seen my gal?

  She does the cutest tricks with her six
  Stereo ears
  When she walks by, spacemen cry
  'Specially when she shifts her gears

If she's found, run like mad
Put her on a launching pad
Down at Cape Can-av-er-al
And shoot me back my cutie
My supersonic beauty
Send me back my Martian gal
--
/~\  Charlie Gibbs  |  Life is perverse.
\ /|  It can be beautiful -
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus |  but it won't.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |-- Lily Tomlin

Re: Debian release criteria.

[tomas]

On Sat, Jan 07, 2023 at 12:45:52PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > That said, my way to cope with it: my main browsing profile
> > is one where I have excised javascript capabilities by "tuning"
> > (read: fat-fingering) about:config. Some pages won't work, but
> > for those I get to think twice whether I'm interested or not.
> > Most of the time I am not.
> 
> I use uMatrix, which I find strikes a fairly good balance between
> keeping sites working and letting me control how much crap is loaded.

Understood. My approach is a radical one: no crap loaded at all. If
I add all the processes making FF up, they top around 20M. Bliss :)

Sometimes I take a morbid satisfaction from knowing: this web page
would like to tell me something, but it can't, because there ain't
no javascript...

My resources, my rules ;-P

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: [OT] coo, was Re: Debian release criteria.

[Curt]

On 2023-01-07, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
>
> To an American audience, the meaning is quite different.  We only use
> "coo" to describe the noise made by a dove, or as an (urban) slang
> term which is a shortened form of "cool".
>

I haven't been following, but coo to me is the sound a pigeon makes, or
the soft, endearing sound some amorous person might emit in the
presence (or the ear) of the loved one, as in the lyrics of "Five Foot
Two, Eyes of Blue":

But could she love, could she woo?
Could she, could she, could she coo?
Has anybody seen my girl?

Anyway, ChatGPT wrote a little Bash script for me; I'd run it past
you for errors, but it's too trivial, I think.

Happy New Year to all.

Re: Debian release criteria.

[Stefan Monnier]

> That said, my way to cope with it: my main browsing profile
> is one where I have excised javascript capabilities by "tuning"
> (read: fat-fingering) about:config. Some pages won't work, but
> for those I get to think twice whether I'm interested or not.
> Most of the time I am not.

I use uMatrix, which I find strikes a fairly good balance between
keeping sites working and letting me control how much crap is loaded.


Stefan

Re: Debian release criteria.

[tomas]

On Sat, Jan 07, 2023 at 12:50:37PM +, Joe wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Jan 2023 07:39:41 +0100
>  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Jan 06, 2023 at 07:41:16PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > [...] hope that Firefox gets a bit more memory-efficient,  
> > 
> > Stefan, I *love* your dry humour :-)
> > 
> > That said, my way to cope with it: my main browsing profile
> > is one where I have excised javascript [...]

> I use No-Script in Firefox. I find that very few commercial sites work
> without at least the site itself being permitted to use JS.
> 
> There are a few sites that just show a blank screen without JS. That's
> rude, and I generally move to one of their competitors' sites.

Exactly: and this is why I go to the extra length of "forced opt
in": I only see them if I can be bothered to create an extra
profile for that. I usually decline :-)

(The one that miffs me is actually NASA, a javascript black hole.
But I live with that).

[...]

> Client-side scripting is the work of the Devil.

I'm old enough to have witnessed Word under... Windows 3.1 and when
I saw it comes with a scripting language and you could embed scripts
in "text" documents, I thought "hmmm... I wonder whether this is
a good idea". Back then, boot sector viruses in floppies roamed the
Earth.

Plus ça change...

cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian release criteria.

[tomas]

On Fri, Jan 06, 2023 at 07:41:16PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:

[...]

> [...] hope that Firefox gets a bit more memory-efficient,

Stefan, I *love* your dry humour :-)

That said, my way to cope with it: my main browsing profile
is one where I have excised javascript capabilities by "tuning"
(read: fat-fingering) about:config. Some pages won't work, but
for those I get to think twice whether I'm interested or not.
Most of the time I am not.

It's a fascinating experiment in the interface between tech
and psych :-)

For those pages I have to (mostly for testing customer stuff)
I have special profiles, which I keep separate (yeah, sandboxing
and that, but I like to have an identifiable subdir on disk which
I can remove when necessary).

I know, it's a bit extreme. But the browser feels nimble and
responsive. No popups, no javascript churning around in hidden
tabs. Bliss.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: [OT] coo, was Re: Debian release criteria.

[Greg Wooledge]

> > On Fri, Jan 06, 2023 at 01:26:54PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > > Rather,
> > > 
> > >   coo² (slang) interjection, expressive of surprise. (Chambers)
> > > 
> > > and this has been around far longer than my lifetime.

> > When using slang, the current meaning is the one that will be understood
> > by your audience.  Not some archaic meaning.
> 
> Err, where did you get the idea that coo is archaic?

The part where you said this particular usage is older than yourself.

> We Brits use the word "Coo"; I guess the equivalent here is "Gee",
> which sounds very American to British ears of my generation.

Ahhh, it's a regional usage, then.  My mistake.

To an American audience, the meaning is quite different.  We only use
"coo" to describe the noise made by a dove, or as an (urban) slang
term which is a shortened form of "cool".

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coo

  A slightly shortened version of "cool"
  used by only the cooest people, coo is the best way to describe
  something that is completely awesome.

And so on.

[OT] coo, was Re: Debian release criteria.

[David Wright]

I'm only replying because I've got nothing better to do.
(Recuperating.)

On Fri 06 Jan 2023 at 15:18:44 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 06, 2023 at 01:26:54PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > And cool in this modern sense (and words like awesome, wicked, and so
> > on) is quite recent.
> > 
> > Rather,
> > 
> >   coo² (slang) interjection, expressive of surprise. (Chambers)
> > 
> > and this has been around far longer than my lifetime.
> > In the context I used it in, it expresses glitz for its own
> > sake, rather than adding any needed functionality. The gimmicks
> > attract the unsophisticated eye, but that's all there is, with
> > no underlying substance.
> > 
> > In particular, it's a derogatory term, unlike cool, which is
> > generally a term of approval.
> 
> When using slang, the current meaning is the one that will be understood
> by your audience.  Not some archaic meaning.

Err, where did you get the idea that coo is archaic?

> I know that's going to be an obstacle for many of the people here,
> since we're generally a mature bunch, but that's the nature of a living
> language.
> 
> If you want to use a slang term that you know is pretty old, and you
> aren't sure whether its meaning is still the same, you can look it up
> on Urban Dictionary, or just Google it and see what contexts you get
> for it.

It's not new (like cool), it's old, which doesn't mean it's archaic,
nor that it's not current. (Compare with your using the F word, which
is at least 500 years old, but still current and just as vulgar.)

It's in the new-fangled online dictionary:

  https://www.dictionary.com/browse/coo
  interjection
  British slang an exclamation of surprise, awe, etc

and it's in Webster's College from the 1950s to the present day,
and Chambers from my schooldays to at least 2003 (when I stopped
buying a copy every five years or so).

We Brits use the word "Coo"; I guess the equivalent here is "Gee",
which sounds very American to British ears of my generation.

> Or, when in doubt, just don't use the slang term at all.  There
> are people here for whom English is a second language, and slang terms
> and idioms tend to confuse them immensely.

I wasn't in doubt at all. The sentence said: "[ … ] it's good that the
CU hasn't run with every fad¹ that some web developers seem to want".
No ambiguity there, surely.

I then added some colour with a clause describing how /I/ would
personally describe those sorts of fad, "so that they get what
I call a high 'coo-rating'."

I then went beyond giving just an ordinary dictionary definition of
coo by instead adding an example sentence: "(Coo, look at that.)"
I would say that that example is as clear as any of the four
given under Etymology 3 on https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coo .

Oh, and if we're talking about immense confusion, then just read
the post I was replying to, and tell me exactly what is the complaint.
Just the subject line and the last two paragraphs will do. Pretend
you're back at school and have been asked to write a précis.

BTW, I've yet to hear anyone around here (Midwest) say "coo" rather
than "cool". Perhaps it's the company I keep, or maybe so-called
"clipping" is a regional habit, or rural, or Canadian, or something.
Dunno. And be honest, have you ever heard anyone actually say that
something is "most coo"? They can go to the trouble of sticking
"most" in front, but can't be bothered to utter the "l"? Really?

When I looked up clipping, most of the references concerned vowels
rather than final consonants. But eventually I turned up apocope.
In its broader sense, apocope can apparently refer to the loss of
any final sound (including consonants) from a word. However, even
here I couldn't find examples of a terminal "l" being clipped.
(The obvious British example of apocope is any word like car,
where the "r" is completely silent unless followed by a vowel.)

¹ an intense and widely shared enthusiasm for something, especially
one that is short-lived and without basis in the object's qualities;
a craze. (One of the online dictionaries. Google it if it concerns
you which one.)

Cheers,
David.

Re: Debian release criteria.

[Stefan Monnier]

>> What, you expect someone to obtain an i386 machine just to replicate
>> that it's slow? And make it crash in some unspecified manner?
> Definitely not for the problems with Firefox.

BTW, regarding the problem with Firefox, a cause of crashes of Firefox
for me is running out of memory.  So there may be very little Debian can
do about that other than hope that Firefox gets a bit more
memory-efficient, which often depends more on web sites than on Firefox
itself (after all, nowadays web browsers are just VMs running Javascript
applications downloaded from hundreds of servers around the world).


Stefan

Re: Debian release criteria.

[gene heskett]

On 1/6/23 15:19, Greg Wooledge wrote:
[...]

I know that's going to be an obstacle for many of the people here,
since we're generally a mature bunch, but that's the nature of a living
language.

If you want to use a slang term that you know is pretty old, and you
aren't sure whether its meaning is still the same, you can look it up
on Urban Dictionary, or just Google it and see what contexts you get
for it.  Or, when in doubt, just don't use the slang term at all.  There
are people here for whom English is a second language, and slang terms
and idioms tend to confuse them immensely.


As a native English only speaker, in an 88 year old rut, I agree, the 
use of the "slanguage" we all understand is totally confusing to the 
Chinese or Eastern Europeans that man an info or support links at a 3d 
printers site. Our 3 letter acronyms are totally confusing to them. I 
don't imagine its any better on the net in general.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Debian release criteria.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Jan 06, 2023 at 01:26:54PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> And cool in this modern sense (and words like awesome, wicked, and so
> on) is quite recent.
> 
> Rather,
> 
>   coo² (slang) interjection, expressive of surprise. (Chambers)
> 
> and this has been around far longer than my lifetime.
> In the context I used it in, it expresses glitz for its own
> sake, rather than adding any needed functionality. The gimmicks
> attract the unsophisticated eye, but that's all there is, with
> no underlying substance.
> 
> In particular, it's a derogatory term, unlike cool, which is
> generally a term of approval.

When using slang, the current meaning is the one that will be understood
by your audience.  Not some archaic meaning.

I know that's going to be an obstacle for many of the people here,
since we're generally a mature bunch, but that's the nature of a living
language.

If you want to use a slang term that you know is pretty old, and you
aren't sure whether its meaning is still the same, you can look it up
on Urban Dictionary, or just Google it and see what contexts you get
for it.  Or, when in doubt, just don't use the slang term at all.  There
are people here for whom English is a second language, and slang terms
and idioms tend to confuse them immensely.

Re: Debian release criteria.

[David Wright]

On Thu 05 Jan 2023 at 23:34:12 (-0500), Timothy M Butterworth wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 1:57 PM  wrote:
> > David Wright wrote on Wed, 4 Jan 2023 21:46:39 -0600

For clarification …

> > > I ran FF on a 500MB i386 laptop to the end of buster, ...
> >
> 
> Debian dropped support for i386, i486 and Pentium I a while ago. Pentium II
> and newer are currently still supported.

The architecture of the laptop is i386 in Debian terminology,
but the class is 686: Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1.50GHz.

> > > I now run my i386 laptop just for its portability. I have eight
> > > xterms open in fvwm, and use it to set things going on the four
> > > or five other machines scattered through the house (all 64-bit).

All run bullseye, but I no longer attempt to run FF on the i386.
By the time I installed bullseye on the i386, I think FF 78 had
already moved on to 91, and it was just too slow in 500MB.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Debian release criteria.

[David Wright]

On Thu 05 Jan 2023 at 10:40:59 (-0800), pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> From: David Wright 
> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 21:46:39 -0600
> > What, you expect someone to obtain an i386 machine just to replicate
> > that it's slow? And make it crash in some unspecified manner?
> 
> Definitely not for the problems with Firefox.
> 
> Yes, I'd hope that at least one person maintaining network software
> would have a 32 bit machine and perform some tests there.  After all, 
> communication is fundamental and the title is "Debian; The Universal 
> operating system". https://www.debian.org/

Well, my impression is that running i386 software exposed to the
internet is gradually getting less secure as it's becoming harder
for the kernel developers to make the necessary patches.

> > > ... what changes in functionality?  The Web site of my credit 
> > > union works as it did five years ago.
> 
> > What's that got to do with Firefox? OK, it's good that the CU hasn't
> > run with every fad that some web developers seem to want, ...
> 
> The subject I intended was Web functionality.  The reference to the 
> Web site of my credit union was illustrative; not the primary subject.
> I shouldn't have assumed that was obvious.

> > Where's your evidence that Firefox 102.6 is not ready? You haven't
> > posted anything specific, and your criticism seems more like a whine, ...
> 
> Yes, a whine against the Web.  Not a whine about readiness of Firefox.  
> The Web has become a resource abyss.  Debian can't fix it.  No single 
> entity can fix it. At least Debian can acknowledge the problem and 
> allocate some attention and resources to mitigation. Debian has 
> influence.  It can advocate to help developers and users avoid the 
> abyss.  Might also be ways for software to help.

"Debian helps fix the Web." Not a headline I expect ever to see,
I'm afraid. Nor do I see how this fits in with your:

 > Not long ago the release criterion was "release when ready".
 > What's become of that?

When the Web is ready??

> > Coo, look at that.
> 
> This meaning?
> 
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coo
> Etymology 2
> Adjective
> coo (comparative more coo, superlative most coo)
> (slang) Cool.

Certainly not: I don't know what "Clipping of cool" means.
Sure, some people don't finish their words, but that's their problem.
It's not going to affect what I write.

And cool in this modern sense (and words like awesome, wicked, and so
on) is quite recent.

Rather,

  coo² (slang) interjection, expressive of surprise. (Chambers)

and this has been around far longer than my lifetime.
In the context I used it in, it expresses glitz for its own
sake, rather than adding any needed functionality. The gimmicks
attract the unsophisticated eye, but that's all there is, with
no underlying substance.

In particular, it's a derogatory term, unlike cool, which is
generally a term of approval.

> > I ran FF on a 500MB i386 laptop to the end of buster, ...
> 
> > I now run my i386 laptop just for its portability. I have eight
> > xterms open in fvwm, and use it to set things going on the four
> > or five other machines scattered through the house (all 64-bit).
> 
> Good.  One machine not in ewaste.
> 
> > I'm not sure why you run Firefox on 32-bits: any particular reason,
> > or just for old times sake?
> 
> Aside from a tablet, haven't purchased a new computer.  Around 
> 1990 purchased a new system board which went into a discarded chassis.
> Purchased three used machines since.  Recently given two 64 bit machines 
> and haven't them commissioned yet.

Well, there's your answer then. Get them commissioned, and use the
i386 for a more appropriate use.

Rather like you, I've never bought a computer at all. I kept two
desktops from work when I retired (both cast-offs already, and now
deceased), acquired two cast-offs when I moved here (one since
deceased), a tower and an all-in-one at the start of the pandemic
(both cast-offs), and meanwhile a sporadic stream of work laptops
cast off by my wife.

Ironically, disposing of machines here is extremely bureaucratic
when they're on the inventory: they don't seem to understand the
concept of amortising the cost of computers.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Debian release criteria.

[Timothy M Butterworth]

On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 1:57 PM  wrote:

> David,
>
> Thanks for replying.
>
> From: David Wright 
> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 21:46:39 -0600
> > What, you expect someone to obtain an i386 machine just to replicate
> > that it's slow? And make it crash in some unspecified manner?
>
> Definitely not for the problems with Firefox.
>
> Yes, I'd hope that at least one person maintaining network software
> would have a 32 bit machine and perform some tests there.  After all,
> communication is fundamental and the title is "Debian; The Universal
> operating system". https://www.debian.org/
>
> > > ... what changes in functionality?  The Web site of my credit
> > > union works as it did five years ago.
>
> > What's that got to do with Firefox? OK, it's good that the CU hasn't
> > run with every fad that some web developers seem to want, ...
>
> The subject I intended was Web functionality.  The reference to the
> Web site of my credit union was illustrative; not the primary subject.
> I shouldn't have assumed that was obvious.
>
> > Coo, look at that.
>
> This meaning?
>
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coo
> Etymology 2
> Adjective
> coo (comparative more coo, superlative most coo)
> (slang) Cool.
>
> Yes, "coo rating" is a problem for the Web.  In North America "cool
> rating" is the more likely expression.
>
> > Where's your evidence that Firefox 102.6 is not ready? You haven't
> > posted anything specific, and your criticism seems more like a whine, ...
>
> Yes, a whine against the Web.  Not a whine about readiness of Firefox.
> The Web has become a resource abyss.  Debian can't fix it.  No single
> entity can fix it. At least Debian can acknowledge the problem and
> allocate some attention and resources to mitigation. Debian has
> influence.  It can advocate to help developers and users avoid the
> abyss.  Might also be ways for software to help.
>
> > I ran FF on a 500MB i386 laptop to the end of buster, ...
>

Debian dropped support for i386, i486 and Pentium I a while ago. Pentium II
and newer are currently still supported.


> > I now run my i386 laptop just for its portability. I have eight
> > xterms open in fvwm, and use it to set things going on the four
> > or five other machines scattered through the house (all 64-bit).
>
> Good.  One machine not in ewaste.
>
> > I'm not sure why you run Firefox on 32-bits: any particular reason,
> > or just for old times sake?
>
> Aside from a tablet, haven't purchased a new computer.  Around
> 1990 purchased a new system board which went into a discarded chassis.
> Purchased three used machines since.  Recently given two 64 bit machines
> and haven't them commissioned yet.
>
> > You don't appear to have posted what the spec of /your/ i386 machine
> > is: in particular, how much memory and how much swap?
>
> me@joule:/home/root# hwinfo --cpu
> 01: None 00.0: 10103 CPU
>   [Created at cpu.465]
>   Unique ID: rdCR.j8NaKXDZtZ6
>   Hardware Class: cpu
>   Arch: Intel
>   Vendor: "GenuineIntel"
>   Model: 15.2.7 "Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.40GHz"
>   Features:
> fpu,vme,de,pse,tsc,msr,pae,mce,cx8,apic,sep,mtrr,pge,mca,cmov,pat,ps
>
> e36,clflush,dts,acpi,mmx,fxsr,sse,sse2,ss,ht,tm,pbe,pebs,bts,cpuid,cid,xtpr,pti
>   Clock: 2393 MHz
>   BogoMips: 4787.65
>   Cache: 512 kb
>   Units/Processor: 1
>   Config Status: cfg=new, avail=yes, need=no, active=unknown
>
> me@joule:/home/root# hwinfo --memory
> 01: None 00.0: 10102 Main Memory
>   [Created at memory.74]
>   Unique ID: rdCR.CxwsZFjVASF
>   Hardware Class: memory
>   Model: "Main Memory"
>   Memory Range: 0x-0xe4c60fff (rw)
>   Memory Size: 3 GB + 512 MB
>   Config Status: cfg=new, avail=yes, need=no, active=unknown
>
> me@joule:/home/root# lsblk | grep sda3
> sda3   8:30 1G  0 part [SWAP]
>
> Swap should be larger.  Might do that after a 64 bit machine is
> running.
>
> Thx,   ... P.
>
> -
> mobile: +1 778 951 5147
> 
>   VoIP: +1 604 670 0140
> https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:PeterEasthope
>
>

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀

Re: Debian release criteria.

[tomas]

On Thu, Jan 05, 2023 at 10:40:59AM -0800, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:

[...]

> [...]  Debian can't fix it.  No single 
> entity can fix it. At least Debian can acknowledge the problem and 
> allocate some attention and resources to mitigation.

You sound a bit like Napoléon on his horse. Know what? Those
"resources" to be "allocated" are you and me. And since you
can't tell me what to do...

I have an old '386 Thinkpad around which I'd gladly donate to
you for testing :-)

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian release criteria.

[peter]

David,

Thanks for replying.

From: David Wright 
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 21:46:39 -0600
> What, you expect someone to obtain an i386 machine just to replicate
> that it's slow? And make it crash in some unspecified manner?

Definitely not for the problems with Firefox.

Yes, I'd hope that at least one person maintaining network software
would have a 32 bit machine and perform some tests there.  After all, 
communication is fundamental and the title is "Debian; The Universal 
operating system". https://www.debian.org/

> > ... what changes in functionality?  The Web site of my credit 
> > union works as it did five years ago.

> What's that got to do with Firefox? OK, it's good that the CU hasn't
> run with every fad that some web developers seem to want, ...

The subject I intended was Web functionality.  The reference to the 
Web site of my credit union was illustrative; not the primary subject.
I shouldn't have assumed that was obvious.

> Coo, look at that.

This meaning?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coo
Etymology 2
Adjective
coo (comparative more coo, superlative most coo)
(slang) Cool.

Yes, "coo rating" is a problem for the Web.  In North America "cool 
rating" is the more likely expression.  

> Where's your evidence that Firefox 102.6 is not ready? You haven't
> posted anything specific, and your criticism seems more like a whine, ...

Yes, a whine against the Web.  Not a whine about readiness of Firefox.  
The Web has become a resource abyss.  Debian can't fix it.  No single 
entity can fix it. At least Debian can acknowledge the problem and 
allocate some attention and resources to mitigation. Debian has 
influence.  It can advocate to help developers and users avoid the 
abyss.  Might also be ways for software to help.

> I ran FF on a 500MB i386 laptop to the end of buster, ...

> I now run my i386 laptop just for its portability. I have eight
> xterms open in fvwm, and use it to set things going on the four
> or five other machines scattered through the house (all 64-bit).

Good.  One machine not in ewaste.

> I'm not sure why you run Firefox on 32-bits: any particular reason,
> or just for old times sake?

Aside from a tablet, haven't purchased a new computer.  Around 
1990 purchased a new system board which went into a discarded chassis.
Purchased three used machines since.  Recently given two 64 bit machines 
and haven't them commissioned yet.

> You don't appear to have posted what the spec of /your/ i386 machine
> is: in particular, how much memory and how much swap?

me@joule:/home/root# hwinfo --cpu
01: None 00.0: 10103 CPU
  [Created at cpu.465]
  Unique ID: rdCR.j8NaKXDZtZ6
  Hardware Class: cpu
  Arch: Intel
  Vendor: "GenuineIntel"
  Model: 15.2.7 "Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.40GHz"
  Features: fpu,vme,de,pse,tsc,msr,pae,mce,cx8,apic,sep,mtrr,pge,mca,cmov,pat,ps
e36,clflush,dts,acpi,mmx,fxsr,sse,sse2,ss,ht,tm,pbe,pebs,bts,cpuid,cid,xtpr,pti
  Clock: 2393 MHz
  BogoMips: 4787.65
  Cache: 512 kb
  Units/Processor: 1
  Config Status: cfg=new, avail=yes, need=no, active=unknown

me@joule:/home/root# hwinfo --memory
01: None 00.0: 10102 Main Memory
  [Created at memory.74]
  Unique ID: rdCR.CxwsZFjVASF
  Hardware Class: memory
  Model: "Main Memory"
  Memory Range: 0x-0xe4c60fff (rw)
  Memory Size: 3 GB + 512 MB
  Config Status: cfg=new, avail=yes, need=no, active=unknown

me@joule:/home/root# lsblk | grep sda3
sda3   8:30 1G  0 part [SWAP]

Swap should be larger.  Might do that after a 64 bit machine is 
running.

Thx,   ... P.

- 
mobile: +1 778 951 5147
  VoIP: +1 604 670 0140
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:PeterEasthope

Re: Debian release criteria.

[Stefan Monnier]

>> From: "Andrew M.A. Cater" 
>> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 16:32:37 +
>> > All software is buggy: it is a matter of luck whether bugs hit you.  
>> =8~/  A hacker might be satisfied with luck.  An engineer should not 
>> be.  If I claim to be a package maintainer, I test as broadly as 
>> feasible. A 32 bit machine is easily found.

> Sorry, I respectfully disagree.  A 32 bit AMD/Intel machine has barely
> been manufactured for >10 years now.  If you happen to have a pure 32
> bit machine sitting around, you're probably living on borrowed time.

Indeed.  I'm still happily using Debian on my trusty Thinkpad X30, which
is my last 32bit-only i386 machine.  But regarding the larger meaning of
"32bit", such machines are still manufactured (in the armhf family, for
example).

> If you mean running 32 bit on a 64 bit capable machine - why is that
> better than running 64 bit code anyway?

I upgraded my Thinkpad T60 with a Core 2 Duo (i.e. 64bit capable), but
with 3GB of RAM, I prefer to stay with a 32bit userland.
It's definitely older than 10 years, admittedly.

> Debian is possibly the last major Linux distribution to support 32 bit
> on x86 - the others have all given up now.

Yes, I'm preparing psychologically for the time when my X30 will not be
able to run Debian testing any more.  This said, it'll turn 20 this
summer, which I think is quite remarkable: I never imagined back then
that the end of Dennard's scaling would keep this machine (marginally)
usable for 20 years.


Stefan

Re: Debian release criteria.

[David Wright]

On Wed 04 Jan 2023 at 14:26:47 (-0800), pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

> dpkg -l | grep fire
> ii  firefox-esr 102.6.0esr-1~deb11u1
> i386 Mozilla Firefox web browser - Extended Support Release (ESR)
> 
> > All software is buggy: it is a matter of luck whether bugs hit you.  
> 
> =8~/  A hacker might be satisfied with luck.  An engineer should not 
> be.  If I claim to be a package maintainer, I test as broadly as 
> feasible.

But you wrote "Firefox has become slow and crashes frequently."
Well, yes, FF 102.x is quite likely to be bigger, and hence slower
than 91.x, and 78.x, and so on.

> A 32 bit machine is easily found.

What, you expect someone to obtain an i386 machine just to replicate
that it's slow? And make it crash in some unspecified manner?

I ran FF on a 500MB i386 laptop to the end of buster, and it was
exceedingly slow, but didn't actually crash. You just had to stick to
no more than a couple of tabs, and avoid the temptation of waving
the cursor around (which would mean waiting for all those movements to
be processed so that you regained control of its position).

You don't appear to have posted what the spec of /your/ i386 machine
is: in particular, how much memory and how much swap?

> > the pace of Firefox change is such that releases age very quickly
> 
> Bulk of the software and frequent updates are evident but what changes 
> in functionality?  The Web site of my credit union works as it did 
> five years ago.

What's that got to do with Firefox? OK, it's good that the CU hasn't
run with every fad that some web developers seem to want, so that
they get what I call a high "coo-rating". (Coo, look at that.)

> Wikipedia pages are still text with pictures and 
> occasional video.

Sure, they tend to be no more complex than required for what's
being displayed. I assume that's their policy, very sensible.

> Flakey Web sites still have annoying animations and 
> distracting slide shows.  What's improved?

Countless other websites that aren't flaky. But many websites that
I remember having real difficulties displaying (like many newspapers),
are rendered much more smoothly by today's Firefox. And the quality of
printing from web pages has improved quite a lot recently; even
those like the interactive ones that the NY Times often uses.

> Not long ago the release criterion was "release when ready".
> What's become of that?

Where's your evidence that Firefox 102.6 is not ready? You haven't
posted anything specific, and your criticism seems more like a whine,
with a provocative subject line that appears to suggest that Debian's
quality standards have slipped.

I now run my i386 laptop just for its portability. I have eight
xterms open in fvwm, and use it to set things going on the four
or five other machines scattered through the house (all 64-bit).
I'm not sure why you run Firefox on 32-bits: any particular reason,
or just for old times sake?

Cheers,
David.

Re: Debian release criteria.

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Wed, Jan 04, 2023 at 02:26:47PM -0800, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> From: "Andrew M.A. Cater" 
> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 16:32:37 +
> 
> > All software is buggy: it is a matter of luck whether bugs hit you.  
> 
> =8~/  A hacker might be satisfied with luck.  An engineer should not 
> be.  If I claim to be a package maintainer, I test as broadly as 
> feasible. A 32 bit machine is easily found.
> 

Sorry, I respectfully disagree. A 32 bit AMD/Intel machine
 has barely been manufactured
for >10 years now. If you happen to have a pure 32 bit machine sitting
around, you're probably living on borrowed time.

If you mean running 32 bit on a 64 bit capable machine - why is that
better than running 64 bit code anyway?

Debian is possibly the last major Linux distribution to support 32 bit
on x86 - the others have all given up now.

All best, as ever,

Andy Cater

> > Hope this helps,
> 
> Thx,... P.
> 
> 
> mobile: +1 778 951 5147
>   VoIP: +1 604 670 0140
> https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:PeterEasthope
> 

Re: Debian release criteria.

[peter]

From: "Andrew M.A. Cater" 
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 16:32:37 +
> Is this a bug that you are experiencing?

Yes.  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=562765#55

> This is only the case for IPv6 - is this something that affects you?

I don't need IPv6 but need 4. This is the pertinent stanza in 
/etc/network/interfaces.

# bridge to connect QEMU guest.
auto br0
iface br0 inet static
 address   10.0.2.1/24
 
Reboot.

ip addr show br0
4: br0:  mtu 1500 qdisc noop state DOWN group default qlen 
1000
   link/ether 92:e0:54:07:2a:e2 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff

Assignment of 10.0.2.1 failed.  Correct?  It worked in 2021 or early 2022.

Ideas aside from this? 
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=993716

> For Firefox, we take what upstream releases as firefox-esr ...

dpkg -l | grep fire
ii  firefox-esr 102.6.0esr-1~deb11u1
i386 Mozilla Firefox web browser - Extended Support Release (ESR)

> All software is buggy: it is a matter of luck whether bugs hit you.  

=8~/  A hacker might be satisfied with luck.  An engineer should not 
be.  If I claim to be a package maintainer, I test as broadly as 
feasible. A 32 bit machine is easily found.

> the pace of Firefox change is such that releases age very quickly

Bulk of the software and frequent updates are evident but what changes 
in functionality?  The Web site of my credit union works as it did 
five years ago.  Wikipedia pages are still text with pictures and 
occasional video.  Flakey Web sites still have annoying animations and 
distracting slide shows.  What's improved?

I use Dillo whenever possible.  Any other ideas to avoid wasted 
communications?   Can Firefox imitate a mobile device app?  Does any 
search engine prioritizes inversely to volume of HTML and JavaScript?

> Hope this helps,

Thx,... P.


mobile: +1 778 951 5147
  VoIP: +1 604 670 0140
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:PeterEasthope

Re: Debian release criteria.

[peter]

From: Eric S Fraga 
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2023 09:25:02 +
> According to that bug report, the problem is on sid.  

Was on sid.  The report originated in 2009 when sid = squeeze = Debian 6.

sid is a floating codename.  Helps to confuse us.  =8~)
https://www.debian.org/releases/ 
'The "unstable" distribution is always called sid.'

I neglected mentioning Debian 11 on an old 32 bit machine here but 
see https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=562765#55 .

In https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=562765#45 
Petter Reinholdtsen also mentioned a 32 bit machine.
Seems to be a pattern involving "32".  =8~)

> cheese works perfectly for me and has done so for a very long time.

Great.  This is a Logitech M/N: V-U0006, P/N: 860-000177, PID: LZ944BN. 
Spherical, about 54 mm diameter.   If you happen to find one, 
please add to the bug report.

Thx,... P.






mobile: +1 778 951 5147
  VoIP: +1 604 670 0140
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:PeterEasthope

Re: Debian release criteria.

[piorunz]

On 03/01/2023 21:36, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:

Can't comment on Cheese camera software or Qemu bridge, I don't use that.


Firefox has become slow and crashes frequently.


Firefox works perfectly well for me, on both Debian Stable and Debian 
Testing systems. I don't restart Firefox for days and weeks sometimes.
I am glad they have ESR version, which is much more mature than 
break-neck normal release cycle. I install ESR on every OS I use, and 
for all my friends.




Not long ago the release criterion was "release when ready".
What's become of that?


I am absolutely glad that Debian Stable is stable as much as it can be, 
I don't experience any major breakdowns or issues, apart from chronic 
instabilities unrelated to Debian itself, for example bugs in Radeon GPU 
drivers and in KDE.
If you experience issues with particular package, like Cheese, Qemu or 
Firefox, you should concentrate on those three areas, Debian maintainers 
package software to best of their ability, but bugs upstream from Debian 
will always exist.


--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Debian release criteria.

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Tue, Jan 03, 2023 at 01:36:31PM -0800, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> A few years ago a USB camera worked with Cheese, a bridge interface 
> worked as documented and Firefox was fairly stable.
> 
> Now Cheese cashes immediately upon startup.
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=562765
> 

Is this a bug that you are experiencing?

> QEMU documents a bridge for connecting the guest, 
> https://wiki.qemu.org/Documentation/Networking But creation of a 
> but creation of a bridge interface fails in Debian 11.
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=993716
> 

This is only the case for IPv6 - is this something that affects you?

> Firefox has become slow and crashes frequently.
> 

The steady state of disks is full - the steady state of software is to
increase in size and complexity. Firefox changes regularly - which version 
of Firefox is particularly buggy for you and are you allowing software to
update?

> Not long ago the release criterion was "release when ready".  
> What's become of that?
> 

This is certainly the case for a major release: so, for example, Debian 12
freeze process starts on 12th January and will take as long as it takes.

For Firefox, we take what upstream releases as firefox-esr by and large:
the pace of Firefox change is such that releases age very quickly - there
isn't a "stop everything for a few months" - upstream doesn't work like
that.

All software is buggy: it is a matter of luck whether bugs hit you. It's 
also entirely possible that system requirements increase and running newer
versions on very old hardware becomes more and more infeasible.

With every good wish, as ever,

Andy Cater
Hope this helps,
> Thanks,  ... P.
> 
> 
> mobile: +1 778 951 5147
>   VoIP: +1 604 670 0140
> https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:PeterEasthope
> 

Re: Debian release criteria.

[Eric S Fraga]

On Tuesday,  3 Jan 2023 at 13:36, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> A few years ago a USB camera worked with Cheese, a bridge interface 
> worked as documented and Firefox was fairly stable.
>
> Now Cheese cashes immediately upon startup.
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=562765

According to that bug report, the problem is on sid.  This is not
surprising?  If you want stability, stick to stable releases?

cheese works perfectly for me and has done so for a very long time.

I cannot comment on qemu.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via gnus (Emacs 30.0.50 2023-01-02) on Debian 11.5

Debian release criteria.

[peter]

Hi,

A few years ago a USB camera worked with Cheese, a bridge interface 
worked as documented and Firefox was fairly stable.

Now Cheese cashes immediately upon startup.
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=562765

QEMU documents a bridge for connecting the guest, 
https://wiki.qemu.org/Documentation/Networking But creation of a 
but creation of a bridge interface fails in Debian 11.
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=993716

Firefox has become slow and crashes frequently.

Not long ago the release criterion was "release when ready".  
What's become of that?

Thanks,  ... P.


mobile: +1 778 951 5147
  VoIP: +1 604 670 0140
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:PeterEasthope