Encoding of web page for vote_004

[Osamu Aoki]

On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 11:35:48AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
...
> The details of the general resolution can be found at:
> http://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_004

I am wondering on the encoding of this web page.

It's source seems to use UTF-8 for names such as:

 René van Bevern
 Frank Küster

But the HTML page start with, 

  

This at least confuses my browser.  Is this only me?

I hope my mail setting encodes this page well.

Osamu

Re: Resolutions concerning dunc-tank

[Peter van Rossum]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Ian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> First resolution `We disapprove of dunc-tank':
>  -8<-
>   BACKGROUND
>
>   1. Anthony Towns, the current Debian Project Leader, has suggested
>  funding the Debian Release Managers' living expenses during the
>  forthcoming release.
>
>   2. Following informal opposition during internal discussions, Anthony
>  Towns has started soliciting, in a private capacity, donations for
>  a non-Debian-controlled fund for this purpose.
>
>   OPINIONS OF THE DEBIAN DEVELOPERS
>
>   3. Firstly, we would like to thank the Release Managers and the Leader
>  for their efforts.  We have no disagreement with the Release
>  Managers.
>
>   4. However, we, are of the opinion that (effectively) paying the
>  Release Managers for their core Debian work devalues the work of
>  other volunteers and is harmful to the project.
>
>   DECISIONS AND REQUESTS
>
>   5. Let it be known that Anthony Towns's plan does not have the support
>  of the Debian Project, and that he is not authorised by Debian to
>  take donations for this purpose.
>
>   6. The Project requests that the Release Managers should not accept
>  any funding for their core Debian activities without the consent of
>  the Project.
>
>   7. The Project requests that potential donors do not give to the fund,
>  described in paragraph (2) above, set up by Anthony Towns.
>
>   8. For the avoidance of any doubt, any decisions by the DPL or
>  Delegates in pursuit of the plan described in paragraphs (1) and
>  (2) above are overruled with immediate effect.
>
>   9. Everyone is requested to interpret this resolution, and make any
>  further decisions, as are necessary to give full effect to our
>  wishes.
>  ->8-
>
> Second resolution `We approve of dunc-tank':
>  -8<-
>   BACKGROUND
>
>   1. Anthony Towns, the current Debian Project Leader, has suggested
>  funding the Debian Release Managers' living expenses during the
>  forthcoming release, as an experiment.
>
>   2. Following internal discussions, Anthony Towns has started
>  soliciting, in a private capacity, donations for a
>  non-Debian-controlled fund for this purpose.
>
>   OPINIONS OF THE DEBIAN DEVELOPERS
>
>   3. Firstly, we would like to thank the Release Managers and the Leader
>  for their efforts.
>
>   4. The Project broadly approves of the experimental plan.
>
>   DECISIONS AND REQUESTS
>
>   5. Let it be known that Anthony Towns's experiment has the support of
>  the Debian Project.
>
>   6. The Release Managers and Donors are requested to cooperate with the
>  experiment as seems reasonable and appropriate to them.
>
>   7. The Project requests that after the release, the experiment will be
>  evaluated by project and community, and that the Leader will
>  formally report.  If it is thought broadly successful, processes of
>  this nature should be established fully as an activity of the
>  Debian Project.
> ->8-
>
> Third resolution `We do not want to state an opinion':
> -8<-
>  1. The Developers note the existence and activities
> of the dunc-tanc project.
>
>  2. We do not believe it appropriate for the Project as a whole to
> address dunc-tank in a General Resolution.
> ->8-

Seconded (all three).

Peter
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Re: Proposal: Recall the Project Leader

[Denis Barbier]

On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 10:35:51AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:14:57 -0500, Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> said: 
> 
> > On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:44:36 +0200, Sven Luther
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> >> Denis, if this issue gets voted before the clarification of the
> >> firmware stuff, i would take this extremely bad. Please wait your
> >> turn, and favour issues which are technically important above bass
> >> politcking.
> 
> > This is wrong. Denis, do feel free to call for a vote as
> > soon
> >  as you think there has been enough discussion. There is no need for
> >  any proposal to wait upon any other proposal. If you want, we can
> >  start vote on this and any other pending proposal this weekend.
> 
> Err, I should have stated that "as long as the minimum
>  discussion period is over". Denis's proposal awas seconded around 21
>  Sep 2006, so we are still in minimum discussion for that.

Absolutely, this is why I asked Anthony if he was willing to shorten
the disussion/vote period, as allowed by the Constitution.  Anyway I
will prepare the requested documents just in case.

> Sorry about that. There have been so many of these proposals
>  floating around I am beginning to lose track.

My bad, I should have mentioned this fact in my previous mail.
Thanks for your time.

Denis


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Draft ballot "DFSG #2 applies to all programmatic works"

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,

This is a draft ballot. Voting is not yet open. The
 vote.debian.org pages may ont yet have been updated.

manoj

 Voting period starts  00:00:01 UTC on Sunday,1st October,  2006
 Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC on Saturday, 14th October,  2006.

The following ballot is for voting on a General Resolution to clarify
the scope and applicability of item 2 of the Debian free software
guidelines (http://www.debian.org/social_contract).  The vote is being
conducted in accordance with the policy delineated in Section A,
Standard Resolution Procedure, of the Debian Constitution.

The details of the general resolution can be found at:
http://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_004

You may see the constitution at http://www.debian.org/devel/constitution.
For voting questions contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

HOW TO VOTE

First, read the full text of the GR and amendments, if any. The ballot
does not claim to be complete rendition of the proposal(s), or even
accurately depict the spirit of each proposal.

Do not erase anything between the lines below and do not change the
choice names.

In the brackets next to your preferred choice, place a 1. Place a 2 in
the brackets next to your next choice.  Do not enter a number smaller
than 1 or larger than 2.  You may skip numbers.  You may rank options
equally (as long as all choices X you make fall in the range 1<= X <=
2).

Make sure you have read the proposal in detail.

To vote "no, no matter what" rank "Further discussion" as more
desirable than the unacceptable choices, or You may rank the "Further
discussion" choice, and leave choices you consider unacceptable
blank. Unranked choices are considered equally the least desired
choices, and ranked below all ranked choices. (Note: if the Further
Discussion choice is unranked, then it is equal to all other unranked
choices, if any -- no special consideration is given to the Further
discussion choice by the voting software).

Then mail the ballot to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Don't worry
about spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your
reply inserts. NOTE: The vote must be GPG signed (or PGP signed) (or
encrypted) with your key that is in the Debian keyring.

- - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
22fc4edd-1f6c-454f-b204-6aa0bad0ce1d
[   ] Choice 1: DFSG #2 applies to all programmatic works
[   ] Choice 2: Further discussion
- - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


--

The responses to a valid vote shall be signed by the vote key created
for this vote. The public key for the vote, signed by the Project
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arch-tag: 1c14135a-7b23-45f7-b0d5-78e68b24d4f8

-- 
It's not the fall that kills you, it's the landing.
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: Call for votes (Was: kernel firmwares: GR proposal)

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Thu, Sep 28, 2006 at 05:02:13PM +0200, Frederik Schueler wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2006 at 06:40:41PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> > > 2. We acknowledge that there is a lot of progress in the kernel firmware
> > > issue; however, it is not yet finally sorted out;
> > 
> > So, what progress has been made?
> 
> For example:
> 
> - the firmware_class infrastructure has been added in more than 100 
>   drivers (as of 2.6.17)

So, does that mean that the firmware for those devices isn't part of the
kernel source, but lives in non-free somewhere?  Or what exactly does
this mean?

> - the qla2xxx firmware has been dropped from the kernel sources, and is
>   now shiped on ftp.qlogic.com
> 
> - new drivers for devices requiring a firmware to be uploaded during
>   initialization are included without embedded firmware (for example the
>   ipw3945 driver, or aic94xx which has just been added in 2.6.19-rc)

So those drivers should go to non-free?


Kurt


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Re: Proposal: Recall the Project Leader

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:14:57 -0500, Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:44:36 +0200, Sven Luther
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>> Denis, if this issue gets voted before the clarification of the
>> firmware stuff, i would take this extremely bad. Please wait your
>> turn, and favour issues which are technically important above bass
>> politcking.

> This is wrong. Denis, do feel free to call for a vote as
> soon
>  as you think there has been enough discussion. There is no need for
>  any proposal to wait upon any other proposal. If you want, we can
>  start vote on this and any other pending proposal this weekend.

Err, I should have stated that "as long as the minimum
 discussion period is over". Denis's proposal awas seconded around 21
 Sep 2006, so we are still in minimum discussion for that.

Sorry about that. There have been so many of these proposals
 floating around I am beginning to lose track.

manoj
-- 
Some marriages are made in heaven -- but so are thunder and lightning.
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: [AMENDMENT]: Release Etch now, with source-less but legal and freely licensed firmware

[Markus Laire]

On 9/28/06, Frank Küster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   2) firmware under the GPL, but with missing source. The GPL is free, but
>   the absence of source code for the firmware blobs makes it a violation of
>   the GPL, and thus undistributable.

Here, the upstream license is "GPL", which complies with the DFSG, and
the driver is therefore included if we are "legally allowed to do so".
The GPL *does* grant us the right to distribute binaries without source.
It also requires us to do things we cannot factually do (namely, provide
the source in the same place, or upon request with written offer etc.).
But I understood the phrasing of Manojs proposal that it doesn't matter
whether we can actually fulfill all requirements, as long as we can
distribute.


You are wrong.
GPLv2[1] section 7 says, among other things "If you cannot distribute
so as to satisfy ... your obligations under this License ... then as a
consequence you may not distribute the Program at all."

And without the source (or a written offer mentioned in section 3) you
can't fullfill the section 3 of GPLv2 and so you can't distribute at
all.

[1] http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

--
Markus Laire
Disclaimer: IANAL, IANADD

Re: [AMENDMENT]: Release Etch now, with source-less but legal and freely licensed firmware

[Markus Laire]

On 9/29/06, Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Now, the RMs seem to have some notion, from the hurried discussion we had
> yesterday, that they seem to interpret your post as allowing to distribute
> sourceless GPLed firmware, because the GPL licence is DFSG free.

Er, yes, because that's what the resolution *says*.  It says that for
firmware in etch we're only going to worry about licenses, *not* source.


How can you say so?
It *also* says "as long as we are legally allowed to do so".

When speaking of GPL, if you are worrying about license and what is
legally allowed, then you are automatically also worrying about
source.

There is no way Debian is legally allowed to distribute sourceless
GPLed firmware.
Section 3 of GPLv2 makes it clear that it's just not possible.

I hope you are not yielding to the pressure to release an Etch which
would break copyright law, but unfortunately this seems to be the case
:(

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Disclaimer: IANAL, IANADD


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Re: Proposal: Recall the Project Leader

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:44:36 +0200, Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 


> Denis, if this issue gets voted before the clarification of the
> firmware stuff, i would take this extremely bad. Please wait your
> turn, and favour issues which are technically important above bass
> politcking.

This is wrong. Denis, do feel free to call for a vote as soon
 as you think there has been enough discussion. There is no need for
 any proposal to wait upon any other proposal. If you want, we can
 start vote on this and any other pending proposal this weekend.

manoj
-- 
Love is the salt of life; a higher taste It gives to pleasure, and
then makes it last.  -- Buckingham
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: [AMENDMENT]: Release Etch now, with source-less but legal and freely licensed firmware

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 08:16:04AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > >   2) firmware under the GPL, but with missing source. The GPL is
> > >  free, but the absence of source code for the firmware blobs
> > >  makes it a violation of the GPL, and thus undistributable.

> > I was very careful to state that shipped upstream under a

> I don't understand this. You added a couple of lines to Frederik's proposal,
> and those have manifestedly be miscompreheneded, because people seconded it
> while missing the implication for tg3.

The possible implications for tg3 were missed because of a lack of
information about tg3's status, not because of any misunderstanding of the
amended proposal.  Larry's webpage documenting the status of firmware listed
the tg3 blob as "BSD-ish".  Well, there's obviously nothing BSD-ish about a
license that doesn't grant permission to modify.

But in spite of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, sent on
September 10th, no mention was made of tg3's current non-free license until
after Manoj's amendment (offered in response to my comments) had been
accepted by Frederik.

Yes, now that we're aware of tg3, that needs to be factored into any plan
which hopes to ensure etch ships with support for installing on the maximum
range of hardware.  But I've already outlined a theory under which I think
the tg3 blob would meet the requirements without having to further amend the
proposal.

> >  compliant license -- which this case seems to meet. Arguable (and
> >  highly improbably), the firmware hex dump could be the preferred form

> The mention of : "Derived from proprietary unpublished source code", in the
> later licence, clearly and without doubt says that this is not the prefered
> source for modification.

Doubts about whether it was the preferred form for modification were never
the basis for deciding to permit binary-only GPL firmware for etch; the
decision was based on the assumption that the authors were acting in good
faith and *intended* to grant us a license permitting redistribution,
failing only due to a technicality.

> Now, the RMs seem to have some notion, from the hurried discussion we had
> yesterday, that they seem to interpret your post as allowing to distribute
> sourceless GPLed firmware, because the GPL licence is DFSG free.

Er, yes, because that's what the resolution *says*.  It says that for
firmware in etch we're only going to worry about licenses, *not* source.

> I also strongly dislike the notion that it is acceptable to have a sourceless
> firmware (and yes, if i say sourceless, it means the hexdump itself is *NOT*
> the prefered source), as long as the actual licence is one that is DFSG free,
> even though the sourceless nature of it violates the GPL or the DFSG.

What in the world is your point?  How do arguments that GPL firmware blobs
are a GPL violation do *anything* to advance the goal of shipping etch with
full hardware support?

You keep arguing against this amended proposal by presenting reasons why
sourceless firmware is bad.  These aren't arguments in favor of the original
proposal:  the original proposal would have allowed (or even required!) even
*more* bad stuff in main, like firmware that has no source *and* has a
license prohibiting modification.  So how do you figure that telling us
about everything that's wrong with sourceless firmware is an argument in
favor of the original proposal, when the amended proposal is aimed at
permitting *just* the specific DFSG problems that affect sourceless
firmware?

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: [AMENDMENT]: Release Etch now, with source-less but legal and freely licensed firmware

[Daniel Ruoso]

Qua, 2006-09-27 às 12:38 -0500, Manoj Srivastava escreveu:
> ,
> |  1. We affirm that our Priorities are our users and the free software
> | community (Social Contract #4);
> |  2. We acknowledge that there is a lot of progress in the kernel
> | firmware issue; however, it is not yet finally sorted out;=20
> |  3. We assure the community that there will be no regressions in
> | the progress made for freedom in the kernel distributed by
> | Debian relative to the Sarge  release in Etch
> |  4. We give priority to the timely release of Etch over sorting every
> | bit out; for this reason, we will treat removal of sourceless
> | firmware as a best-effort process, and deliver firmware in udebs as
> | long as it is necessary for installation (like all udebs), and
> | firmware included in the kernel itself as part of Debian Etch,
> | as long as we are legally allowed to do so, and the firmware is
> | distributed upstream under a license that complies with the DFSG.=20
> `

I second this proposal.

Daniel Ruoso


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Re: [AMENDMENT]: Release Etch now, with source-less but legal and freely licensed firmware

[Sven Luther]

On Thu, Sep 28, 2006 at 10:59:36PM +0200, Frederik Schueler wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Thu, Sep 28, 2006 at 11:45:54AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > fs, this is contrary to what we where trying to achieve, i would like to 
> > know
> > why you seconded this.
> 
> What we want to archive, is release etch in time, being installable on
> all hardware supported upstream. From the discussion about this
> amendment, I understood this is being covered here, so I think this is a
> good compromise.

Ok, but manaoj's amendment, which you approved, doesn't allow for that, which
is why i was surprised when you accepted it.

I believe, following our discussion on irc, that you probably misunderstood
the impact of the amendment, and others seem to have wildly different
interpretations of it from what Manoj originally meant.

In this way, i beleive it is a bad amendment, if nothing else because it
brings confusion as to its interpretation, and it brings the risk of us being
at the same point, post-vote as we are today.

I strongly urge you to recall your acceptance of it, and instead search
together a better position during the irc meeting tomorrow.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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