Re: New XO-1.5 10.2.0 build 114
--- On Mon, 3/22/10, James Cameron qu...@laptop.org wrote: From: James Cameron qu...@laptop.org Subject: Re: New XO-1.5 10.2.0 build 114 To: Yioryos Asprobounitis mavrot...@yahoo.com Cc: Fedora OLPC fedora-olpc-l...@redhat.com, Chris Ball c...@laptop.org, Devel devel@lists.laptop.org Date: Monday, March 22, 2010, 7:29 PM On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 04:09:44PM -0700, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: Didn't work. Apparently the switch in this case is implemented later (xrandr?) Thanks. I'm amazed that GNOME is able to change the resolution on the server without resolution change being available. Did you restart the X server? :- .config/monitors.xml was the offending file Not how you get to console (...) How do you switch to sugar from console? (I'm stack in Gnome). What is the command? /home/olpc/Desktop/olpc-switch-to-sugar.desktop runs /usr/bin/olpc-switch-to-sugar which is a Python script that creates a file .olpc-active-desktop with the word sugar in it. So try: su - olpc echo sugar .olpc-active-desktop OK. The Sugar desktop was unaffected by all these. So if you manage to switch you are safe. However, is still a breaker for me, given that is generated by a gnome panel option. Then Ctrl/Alt/F3 Then Ctrl/Alt/Erase -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: New XO-1.5 10.2.0 build 114
yioryos wrote: Not how you get to console (...) How do you switch to sugar from console? (I'm stack in Gnome). What is the command? /home/olpc/Desktop/olpc-switch-to-sugar.desktop runs /usr/bin/olpc-switch-to-sugar which is a Python script that creates a file .olpc-active-desktop with the word sugar in it. So try: su - olpc echo sugar .olpc-active-desktop OK. The Sugar desktop was unaffected by all these. So if you manage to switch you are safe. However, is still a breaker for me, given that is generated by a gnome panel option. hi yioryos -- perhaps you could file a trac ticket? there is a growing collection of gnome-related bugs against 1.5, this one should be included as well. paul =- paul fox, p...@laptop.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
To Gnome or not to Gnome
On Mon, 2010-03-22 at 23:13 -0700, Yioryos Asprobounitis wrote: OK. The Sugar desktop was unaffected by all these. So if you manage to switch you are safe. However, is still a breaker for me, given that is generated by a gnome panel option. Children discovered some very creative ways to break their systems through Gnome. One completely wiped all the activities with Nautilus. They often mess up the panel, to the point that you can't find nm-applet. Solution: rm -r .config .gconf .gnome2 A few days ago, we've seen could no longer see any access points in the network view of Sugar. The Radio switch in the control panel was enabled, but NetworkManager would refuse to work. It took me half an hour to realize that this devilish kid had turned off the Enable Networking switch from nm-applet, then switched back to Sugar, where this setting is unavailable in the control panel. I wouldn't propose disabling Gnome or locking it down. Far from it. Children shouldn't be denied valuable opportunities to hack around. All we need is a fast way to recover from disasters. A panic button which would reset all settings. It could be implemented in olpc-configure with 3 lines of code. In the absence of a recovery option, technicians resort to flashing laptops that have been tampered with beyond some point. Another common problem is kids removing activities, from Gnome or from Sugar. Perhaps we should block a few of them, or use a customization stick to restore them all. Maybe all we need to do is put all the activities on a stick and show teachers how to drag them back to the journal. -- // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/ \X/ Sugar Labs - http://sugarlabs.org/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
Hi guys. I know most people here prefer free as in Libre as opposed to free as in beer, but what do you think of coordinating with Adobe to get Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO? Adobe already supports a lot of open-source initiatives and have already open-sourced the Flex SDK which you can use to compile SWFs using text files and a command line a la JDK (or in Windows, using an open-source IDE like Flashdevelop (needs .NET runtime)). http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/flexsdk Flash's spec is open, but they cannot opensource the Flash Player or AIR because they contain technologies which Adobe does not own but pays licensing fees for. With stuff like Youtube (using the camera to record a video, something you cannot do with HTML5), UStream and games (which kids dig a lot), the internet experience really isn't complete without Flash. Moreover, the big difference is that with the Actionscript Virtual Machine 2 which uses Actionscript 3, the speed difference from the AVM1 (Actionscript 1/2 like GNASH) is 10x or more, which is very important since we're talking about low-speed/power devices here. Also, Flash Player 10.1 has been engineered for mobile devices so it should run very efficiently on the XO 1.5 (you can only do so much with the XO-1, but Flash 10 beats GNASH's performance on it nonetheless). Also (sorry John, Rob), Actionscript 2 is a dead technology which needs to be put to rest (and there are few practical open source tools to generate AS2/AVM1 SWFs). GNASH simply cannot catch up with the features that are being implemented with each new release of Flash.. Also, Adobe is actively pushing Flash on as many devices as possible via the Open Screen Project http://www.openscreenproject.org and I'm sure they'd be more than happy to have Flash get bundled on the XO. Also, Flash is the most commonly used toolset for building educational apps. Not everyone has the skill or patience to programmatically animate objects in e-learning applications. What I mean is that it's very efficient. What do you guys think? -- carlos nazareno http://twitter.com/object404 http://www.object404.com -- interactive media specialist zen graffiti studios http://www.zengraffiti.com -- if you don't like the way the world is running, then change it instead of just complaining. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: To Gnome or not to Gnome
On Tuesday 23 March 2010 07:28:05 pm Bernie Innocenti wrote: All we need is a fast way to recover from disasters. A panic button which would reset all settings. It could be implemented in olpc-configure with 3 lines of code. In the absence of a recovery option, technicians resort to flashing laptops that have been tampered with beyond some point. One simple way would to be save home directory into /var/lib/home-save.tgz on issue and then restore it while booting: test -f $HOMEDIR/.dontrestore || tar xjvf /var/lib/home-save.tbz -C $HOMEDIR ./ To restore, remove $HOMEDIR/.dontrestore and reboot. This is not a robust solution but it should take care of most 'experiments' by kids ;-). HTH .. Subbu ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: To Gnome or not to Gnome
On Tue, 2010-03-23 at 20:31 +0530, K. K. Subramaniam wrote: On Tuesday 23 March 2010 07:28:05 pm Bernie Innocenti wrote: All we need is a fast way to recover from disasters. A panic button which would reset all settings. It could be implemented in olpc-configure with 3 lines of code. In the absence of a recovery option, technicians resort to flashing laptops that have been tampered with beyond some point. One simple way would to be save home directory into /var/lib/home-save.tgz on issue and then restore it while booting: test -f $HOMEDIR/.dontrestore || tar xjvf /var/lib/home-save.tbz -C $HOMEDIR ./ Users tend to fill up their home very quickly and we don't have 400-500MB of free space for an extra copy. We do, however, perform automatic journal backups on the xs. Only, we have problems with the restore procedure ;-) -- // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/ \X/ Sugar Labs - http://sugarlabs.org/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
RFC: change to XO sleep behavior
recent releases of XO-1.5 (and also of F11-on-XO1, if we can ever get suspend/resume working properly again) have a new default behavior with regard to idle suspend. i'm soliciting opinions on how to fine-tune this new behavior. before: in the past on XO-1, the screen would dim, and after a certain duration of inactivity, the laptop would suspend (with the screen dimmed). a keystroke or touchpad gesture would waken the laptop from this state. in contrast, pushing the power button would cause the screen to blank and the laptop to go to sleep. one could leave this state only by pushing the power button again (or by closing/opening the lid). note that there was no ambiguity as to whether keyboard input would cause the laptop to wake up: if the screen was on, it would, otherwise, it wouldn't. now: in the new scheme, the idle sequence has changed: after a fairly brief period of inactivity, the system will suspend, leaving the screen on. (the user may not even know this has happened.) assuming there is still no keyboard activity, a little later the screen will dim, and sometime after that, the screen will blank. (if you care about these timings, please comment on #10034, rather than here.) now we finally come to the fine-tuning: a) currently, once the screen blanks, a keystroke will _not_ wake the laptop. as a design, it seemed to make sense that if the screen was off, and the power LED was flashing slowly, then however we got there (i.e., via power button or idleness), the laptop should behave the same. b) but having been using the laptop this way for a while, several people have requested that if the screen blanks due to idleness, that it should remain wakeable with user activity. this makes it feel a lot more like a traditional screen saver (but note that your waking keystroke will be used, not dropped). everyone seems to be agreed that the power button, like a lid closure, should result in a state where the keyboard won't wake the laptop. so, what do you think? 'a' or 'b'? (note that 'a' and 'b' are identical with respect to power consumption.) further, if you choose 'a': are you comfortable having two laptop states: - dark screen wakeable from keyboard - dark screen _not_ wakeable from keyboard that are visually indistinguishable? is it worth adding yet another LED blink behavior to differentiate these states? paul =- paul fox, p...@laptop.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior
Hi, further, if you choose 'a': are you comfortable having two I think this is if you choose 'b'. laptop states: - dark screen wakeable from keyboard - dark screen _not_ wakeable from keyboard that are visually indistinguishable? is it worth adding yet another LED blink behavior to differentiate these states? I'd be comfortable with it, and it doesn't seem worth adding another blink state. We could also consider just having the touchpad be available for wake-from-idle-sleep, and not the keyboard, since that way you wouldn't have any side effects from the wakeup key. But I think having the side effects isn't a big deal, so I'd go with your proposed (b). Thanks, - Chris. -- Chris Ball c...@laptop.org One Laptop Per Child ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior
We could also consider just having the touchpad be available for wake-from-idle-sleep, and not the keyboard, since that way you wouldn't have any side effects from the wakeup key. But I think having the side effects isn't a big deal, so I'd go with your proposed (b). I've gotten into the habit of poking the shift key when I want to wake things up. If I poke a real key, that probably means that I know what I'm typing at and expect it to get used as input rather than wakeup. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: New XO-1.5 10.2.0 build 114
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 08:07:41AM -0400, Paul Fox wrote: yioryos wrote: OK. The Sugar desktop was unaffected by all these. So if you manage to switch you are safe. However, is still a breaker for me, given that is generated by a gnome panel option. hi yioryos -- perhaps you could file a trac ticket? there is a growing collection of gnome-related bugs against 1.5, this one should be included as well. http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/10084 (changing screen resolution in XO-1.5 trashes the XO) -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Carlos Nazareno object...@gmail.com wrote: I know most people here prefer free as in Libre as opposed to free as in beer, but what do you think of coordinating with Adobe to get Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO? Flash 10 AFAIK is available as an rpm, so a local deployment hoping to add it in their local image can do so easily. The current AIR stable is not available as rpm apparently, and that's causing some people a lot of pain. The preview binaries of their next major release are available as rpms. Adobe already supports a lot of open-source initiatives and have already open-sourced the Flex SDK which you can use to compile SWFs Unlikely that it's open source in the OSI sense, so let's not fall into that trap -- they opened up some of their code. Also, Adobe blabla bla Look, I have worked for many years on the Shockwave and Flash platforms. Unless your clients are paying you real money to develop with it, it's honestly a PoS and there is no reason to celebrate it. There is just a ton of content in that damn format. Most of is bad quality, a vanishingly small % is passably good... but whoever owns it loves it, good or bad, because they paid good $ for it ;-) Also, Flash is the most commonly used toolset for building educational apps. Again, I have worked for many years in exactly that industry. That content... is of very low educational quality. Extremely low. Ridiculously low. What do you guys think? That you've applied for a job at Adobe, or will do it soon ;-) Honestly, there is no point to what you propose: the only thing needed for integration work is for Adobe to make a good rpm of their current stable AIR. Maybe they can test it, and tune it for the XO-1.5. cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior
b. -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
What do you guys think? That you've applied for a job at Adobe, or will do it soon ;-) No, I'm a flash game developer and there are *A LOT* of flash game developers out there, and it's now the easiest platform to develop games for. I'm 100% sure that a number of Flash game developers (professional or amateur) would love to contribute game edugame content for the XO. Gnash just doesn't cut it. AVM1 is just too slow, especially for the XO-1. Look, I have worked for many years on the Shockwave and Flash platforms. Unless your clients are paying you real money to develop with it, it's honestly a PoS and there is no reason to celebrate it. I don't think you've developed for it in the past 3 years then. Flash is an absolute joy to make games in. As a kid too, I got a big headstart on my classmates because I had educational Math Word games on our home computer. Games in general proven to be one of the best ways to engage students - make learning fun, and they will learn. I have a Bookworm-like (Boggle-like) word game that's good to go on the XO with a few graphical tweaks, but it's in Flash 9 AS3 AVM2 and will not work with Gnash. -Naz -- carlos nazareno http://twitter.com/object404 http://www.object404.com -- interactive media specialist zen graffiti studios http://www.zengraffiti.com -- if you don't like the way the world is running, then change it instead of just complaining. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
Hi, What do you guys think? For what it's worth, I wrote up my personal opinion about this on the sugar-devel@ list last year: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2009-January/003516.html (This isn't an official OLPC policy; I didn't talk with anyone at OLPC before writing it.) - Chris. -- Chris Ball c...@laptop.org One Laptop Per Child ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
On 24.03.2010, at 00:36, Chris Ball wrote: Hi, What do you guys think? For what it's worth, I wrote up my personal opinion about this on the sugar-devel@ list last year: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2009-January/003516.html (This isn't an official OLPC policy; I didn't talk with anyone at OLPC before writing it.) - Chris. Very nicely put. This *should be* official policy in any case :) The real problem with Flash isn't even the non-free player. It's the non-free authoring tool chain every content creator is locked into, plus that even with the tools the resulting flash file is not fully editable. The result is an impenetrable magic gimmick, it's not supposed to be examined, deconstructed, rebuilt, improved. It's teaching kids to be consumers, not to be creators. - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
I don't get it. 1) Flash is no more evil as Java was years ago when it was closed source and it was being taught at universities. There is now an open-source SDK (Flex SDK (there's 2 versions, the closed source and the open source one)) with which you can produce AVM2 SWFs, and you can give away your AS3 sourcecode all you want. In fact, if Firefox Chrome did not exist and let's say the only web browsers that existed were closed-source ones like IE, Netscape, Opera, Safari, would you say that HTML + Javascript is an inappropriate tool for creating learning materials? Because that is exactly the same situation. Martin's previous arguments about the quality of educational content is not a problem with a platform like flash, it is a problem about the the content that is being deployed. 2) You have hundreds of Flash multimedia/game developers that outnumber Python game/multimedia developers. Why add an extra layer of hassle for them to create content for the XO? (I still am not able to get sound running on Gnash on the XO.) There are thousands of Java developers in the world today, and for all intents and purposes, AS3 has more or less the same syntax as Java. JRE is a resource hog compared to Flash, Moreover, Flash has authoring tools which make it very easy to create integrated multimedia content (vector/raster graphics, sound, keyboard/mouse inputs, etc). There's a new flame war going on, HTML5 vs Flash and it's the new Macs vs PC, but you won't see Flash dying anytime soon. You want to know why? The web is ruled by designers and not developers. You don't have to be a real programmer to create interactive rich media content for Flash. 3) Honestly, I find the reasoning that everything has to be open source in order for it to be good for kids. I mean do you have to be a mechanic to be able to drive a car? Do you have to be an electrical engineer to watch Sesame Street on TV? Does a child really need to tinker with the source code of an educational game to be able to gain benefits from it? Moreover, I think that's asking too much given the fact that even high school students have problems grasping BASIC. I think this is a case of open source fundamentalism trumping educational goals. There are hundreds of multimedia authors out there who can create content for the XO, but IMHO sugarization python + python only is a gateway that is hampering the availability of content for the XO. In a sense, this makes the XO an environment that is just about as locked-in as the iPhone. Why is allowing additional tools a new pool of content creators bad for OLPC? -Naz http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2009-January/003516.html (This isn't an official OLPC policy; I didn't talk with anyone at OLPC before writing it.) - Chris. -- Chris Ball c...@laptop.org One Laptop Per Child -- carlos nazareno http://twitter.com/object404 http://www.object404.com -- interactive media specialist zen graffiti studios http://www.zengraffiti.com -- if you don't like the way the world is running, then change it instead of just complaining. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
crap. hit the send key before proof-reading. Edits: - There are thousands of Java developers in the world today, and for all intents and purposes, AS3 has more or less the same syntax as Java so you now have an additonal large pool of developers who can create content. Also, an aside, JRE is a resource hog compared to Flash that's why Flash is commonly accepted way to deploy multimedia content (especially for a low-resource environment like the XO). - Honestly, I find the reasoning that everything has to be open source in order for it to be good for kids a non sequitur. On 3/24/10, Carlos Nazareno object...@gmail.com wrote: I don't get it. 1) Flash is no more evil as Java was years ago when it was closed source and it was being taught at universities. There is now an open-source SDK (Flex SDK (there's 2 versions, the closed source and the open source one)) with which you can produce AVM2 SWFs, and you can give away your AS3 sourcecode all you want. In fact, if Firefox Chrome did not exist and let's say the only web browsers that existed were closed-source ones like IE, Netscape, Opera, Safari, would you say that HTML + Javascript is an inappropriate tool for creating learning materials? Because that is exactly the same situation. Martin's previous arguments about the quality of educational content is not a problem with a platform like flash, it is a problem about the the content that is being deployed. 2) You have hundreds of Flash multimedia/game developers that outnumber Python game/multimedia developers. Why add an extra layer of hassle for them to create content for the XO? (I still am not able to get sound running on Gnash on the XO.) There are thousands of Java developers in the world today, and for all intents and purposes, AS3 has more or less the same syntax as Java. JRE is a resource hog compared to Flash, Moreover, Flash has authoring tools which make it very easy to create integrated multimedia content (vector/raster graphics, sound, keyboard/mouse inputs, etc). There's a new flame war going on, HTML5 vs Flash and it's the new Macs vs PC, but you won't see Flash dying anytime soon. You want to know why? The web is ruled by designers and not developers. You don't have to be a real programmer to create interactive rich media content for Flash. 3) Honestly, I find the reasoning that everything has to be open source in order for it to be good for kids. I mean do you have to be a mechanic to be able to drive a car? Do you have to be an electrical engineer to watch Sesame Street on TV? Does a child really need to tinker with the source code of an educational game to be able to gain benefits from it? Moreover, I think that's asking too much given the fact that even high school students have problems grasping BASIC. I think this is a case of open source fundamentalism trumping educational goals. There are hundreds of multimedia authors out there who can create content for the XO, but IMHO sugarization python + python only is a gateway that is hampering the availability of content for the XO. In a sense, this makes the XO an environment that is just about as locked-in as the iPhone. Why is allowing additional tools a new pool of content creators bad for OLPC? -Naz http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2009-January/003516.html (This isn't an official OLPC policy; I didn't talk with anyone at OLPC before writing it.) - Chris. -- Chris Ball c...@laptop.org One Laptop Per Child -- carlos nazareno http://twitter.com/object404 http://www.object404.com -- interactive media specialist zen graffiti studios http://www.zengraffiti.com -- if you don't like the way the world is running, then change it instead of just complaining. -- carlos nazareno http://twitter.com/object404 http://www.object404.com -- interactive media specialist zen graffiti studios http://www.zengraffiti.com -- if you don't like the way the world is running, then change it instead of just complaining. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
On 24.03.2010, at 01:42, Carlos Nazareno wrote: I don't get it. [...] Why is allowing additional tools a new pool of content creators bad for OLPC? We're not preventing anything. You're free to package the Adobe player and anything else needed to run your game into a Sugar activity. In fact there are proprietary game activities for the XO already. We're just not actively *supporting* that consumeristic attitude because ... -- carlos nazareno if you don't like the way the world is running, then change it instead of just complaining. ... that's precisely what we try to do. - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Devel Digest, Vol 49, Issue 43
The real problem with Flash isn't even the non-free player. It's the non-free authoring tool chain every content creator is locked into, plus that even with the tools the resulting flash file is not fully editable. The result is an impenetrable magic gimmick, it's not supposed to be examined, deconstructed, rebuilt, improved. It's teaching kids to be consumers, not to be creators. What? Have you guys not been reading what I've been saying? THERE ARE NOW FREE AND OPEN SOURCE TOOLS FOR CREATING FLASH CONTENT. You have Flashdevelop (opn source Actionscript Editor for Windows), Flex SDK (all you need is a text editor to make AS3 .as files and a command line to compile the SWF a la JDK), also, HaXe. -Naz On 3/24/10, devel-requ...@lists.laptop.org devel-requ...@lists.laptop.org wrote: Send Devel mailing list submissions to devel@lists.laptop.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to devel-requ...@lists.laptop.org You can reach the person managing the list at devel-ow...@lists.laptop.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Devel digest... Today's Topics: 1. RFC: change to XO sleep behavior (Paul Fox) 2. Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior (Chris Ball) 3. Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior (Hal Murray) 4. Re: New XO-1.5 10.2.0 build 114 (James Cameron) 5. Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO (Martin Langhoff) 6. Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior (James Cameron) 7. Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO (Carlos Nazareno) 8. Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO (Chris Ball) 9. Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO (Bert Freudenberg) 10. Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO (Carlos Nazareno) 11. Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO (Carlos Nazareno) -- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:16:51 -0400 From: Paul Fox p...@laptop.org Subject: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior To: devel@lists.laptop.org, sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org Message-ID: 22980.1269371...@foxharp.boston.ma.us Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii recent releases of XO-1.5 (and also of F11-on-XO1, if we can ever get suspend/resume working properly again) have a new default behavior with regard to idle suspend. i'm soliciting opinions on how to fine-tune this new behavior. before: in the past on XO-1, the screen would dim, and after a certain duration of inactivity, the laptop would suspend (with the screen dimmed). a keystroke or touchpad gesture would waken the laptop from this state. in contrast, pushing the power button would cause the screen to blank and the laptop to go to sleep. one could leave this state only by pushing the power button again (or by closing/opening the lid). note that there was no ambiguity as to whether keyboard input would cause the laptop to wake up: if the screen was on, it would, otherwise, it wouldn't. now: in the new scheme, the idle sequence has changed: after a fairly brief period of inactivity, the system will suspend, leaving the screen on. (the user may not even know this has happened.) assuming there is still no keyboard activity, a little later the screen will dim, and sometime after that, the screen will blank. (if you care about these timings, please comment on #10034, rather than here.) now we finally come to the fine-tuning: a) currently, once the screen blanks, a keystroke will _not_ wake the laptop. as a design, it seemed to make sense that if the screen was off, and the power LED was flashing slowly, then however we got there (i.e., via power button or idleness), the laptop should behave the same. b) but having been using the laptop this way for a while, several people have requested that if the screen blanks due to idleness, that it should remain wakeable with user activity. this makes it feel a lot more like a traditional screen saver (but note that your waking keystroke will be used, not dropped). everyone seems to be agreed that the power button, like a lid closure, should result in a state where the keyboard won't wake the laptop. so, what do you think? 'a' or 'b'? (note that 'a' and 'b' are identical with respect to power consumption.) further, if you choose 'a': are you comfortable having two laptop states: - dark screen wakeable from keyboard - dark screen _not_ wakeable from keyboard that are visually indistinguishable? is it worth adding yet another LED blink behavior to differentiate these states? paul =- paul fox, p...@laptop.org --
Re: my trimming of reply texts
Hi guys. I apologize for forgetting to trim the quoted text from my replies. Google's quick reply function is evil and quotes the entire previous messages (which is very bad in my case since I set devel to digest mode). Sorry. I won't do it again. :-/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
Hi, (Don't have time to reply to everything you said, sorry.) I think this is a case of open source fundamentalism trumping educational goals. No. My IAEP post listed only educational goals; there was nothing about open source being a virtue for its own sake. You can disagree with how important those educational goals are (the rest of the educational software industry clearly does, so the disagreement would be unsurprising) but you can't claim that they aren't about education. Flashdevelop (opn source Actionscript Editor for Windows), [..] Maybe the reason we're miscommunicating is that you don't understand that we aren't willing to expect that our users have access to another computer running Windows (because they don't), or for them to use a text editor to edit content that was created in a GUI (since that's *much* harder, and is treating them as a second-class citizen). The XO is all we have to work with. - Chris. -- Chris Ball c...@laptop.org One Laptop Per Child ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Carlos Nazareno object...@gmail.com wrote: There is now an open-source SDK (Flex SDK (there's 2 versions, the You don't say open source in the OSI sense right? Martin's previous arguments about the quality of educational content is not a problem with a platform like flash, it is a problem about the the content that is being deployed. It _is_ a problem. A *cultural* problem with developers. The quality is shockingly bad, even of my own software done with those tools. I've never seen a localizable Flash or Shockwave project (except for a few where _I_ did led the technical work). Never seen any project caring really about accesibility. 2) You have hundreds of Flash multimedia/game developers that outnumber Python game/multimedia developers. Why add an extra layer of hassle for them to create content for the XO? Let Adobe do it, or let Flash developers do it (there are so many of them, and they have a financial incentive!). As I've said, the work to do is not that hard! There's a new flame war going on, HTML5 vs Flash and it's the new Macs vs PC, but you won't see Flash dying anytime soon. ... and link that to... 3) Honestly, I find the reasoning that everything has to be open source in order for it to be good for kids. I mean do you have to be a mechanic to be able to drive a car? I got started hacking at 9 (Basic and ASM64 soon after) and we have a few kernel devs volunteering for OLPC that started _with the linux kernel_ at around the same age. But feel free to put that aside for a moment. It needs to be hackable _so that other deployers can hack on it too, to localize it_. The *engine* has to be hackable so that there is a chance to fix bugs. I think this is a case of open source fundamentalism trumping educational goals. You'll never meet me and fundamentalism. I am a deeply pragmatic guy. There are hundreds of multimedia authors out there who can create content for the XO, but IMHO sugarization python + python only is a gateway that is hampering the availability of content for the XO. There is no only here. The technical problem you are imagining does not exist, there a few easy things to solve. Why is allowing additional tools a new pool of content creators bad for OLPC? We _allow_! You are drowning in a teardrop. We won't do Adobe's work for them, we won't do what is _your job_. if you don't like the way the world is running, then change it instead of just complaining. Bert nailed it on your sig ;-) cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
Maybe the reason we're miscommunicating is that you don't understand that we aren't willing to expect that our users have access to another computer running Windows (because they don't), or for them to use a text editor to edit content that was created in a GUI (since that's *much* harder, and is treating them as a second-class citizen). The XO is all we have to work with. Thanks, Chris. I understand that. Well, the XO 1.5 is powerful enough to run Java compile SWF content with the Flex SDK (Java is needed to publish w/ the Flex SDK) so I don't really see that as a problem. Anyway the main point I'm proposing is opening up an additional channel for providing content for the XO from amateur professional developers. IMHO, the weakest point of the XO ( OLPC) is the lack of compelling content and the difficulty of creating quality content. What's wrong with other people who have content creation tools providing free content for the people who'll only have access to XOs? It's like saying we can't give books written by other authors to these people because we want them to write their own books or fanfic. Also, what's wrong with free as in Beer? (aside from making sure the beer works well, plays nice and doesn't mess with other stuff or have backdoors and the like) Regards, -Naz -- carlos nazareno http://twitter.com/object404 http://www.object404.com -- interactive media specialist zen graffiti studios http://www.zengraffiti.com -- if you don't like the way the world is running, then change it instead of just complaining. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:10:06AM +0800, Carlos Nazareno wrote: What's wrong with other people who have content creation tools providing free content for the people who'll only have access to XOs? I don't see anyone disallowing that, and I'm sure our users would love that, so please ... make it happen. Check with the users for their requirements with respect to language, culture, content, performance, compatibility, and price. -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] RFC: change to XO sleep behavior
isaac wrote: On 03/23/10 15:16, Paul Fox wrote: are you comfortable having two laptop states: - dark screen wakeable from keyboard - dark screen _not_ wakeable from keyboard that are visually indistinguishable? by the way, if you have entered dark screen wakeable from keyboard mode, and then you close the lid, does it change to be no longer wakeable from keyboard? (or some equivalent effect, like going right good question. yes, it does. paul back to not-wakeable-from-keyboard sleep if it wakes up with the lid closed?) ___ Sugar-devel mailing list sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel =- paul fox, p...@laptop.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] RFC: change to XO sleep behavior
Paul Fox wrote: now: in the new scheme, the idle sequence has changed: after a fairly brief period of inactivity, the system will suspend, leaving the screen on. (the user may not even know this has happened.) assuming there is still no keyboard activity, a little later the screen will dim, and sometime after that, the screen will blank. Why will the screen blank? Why not just deactivate the backlight? Is the DCON's power draw sufficiently high that blanking the screen represents real savings? --Ben signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] RFC: change to XO sleep behavior
On 03/23/10 15:16, Paul Fox wrote: are you comfortable having two laptop states: - dark screen wakeable from keyboard - dark screen _not_ wakeable from keyboard that are visually indistinguishable? by the way, if you have entered dark screen wakeable from keyboard mode, and then you close the lid, does it change to be no longer wakeable from keyboard? (or some equivalent effect, like going right back to not-wakeable-from-keyboard sleep if it wakes up with the lid closed?) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior
Hi, Why will the screen blank? Why not just deactivate the backlight? Is the DCON's power draw sufficiently high that blanking the screen represents real savings? Yes, it's 100mw, AFAIK. - Chris. -- Chris Ball c...@laptop.org One Laptop Per Child ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
Okay, here's the thing: AFAIK, the Adobe peeps don't have access to XO machines, that's why before when I was reporting to Mike Melanson (http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/ Linux Flash guy at Adobe) the camera bug with Flash on the XO-1, he couldn't help much. I'm relatively sure the Adobe peeps would love to help OLPC, and there should be no problem getting Flash freely distributed for bundling given the Open Screen Project. (manufacturers used to need to pay a licensing fee to bundle the Flash player in devices like mobile phones back in the early Flash Lite). I'm in touch with some folks at Adobe, and if you guys want, I can start asking around. There's a very large international Flash game developer community and I'm sure a number of Flash game developers would love to help out OLPC. Here's another thing to consider: If there was an easy way to have the equivalent of a shortcut that launches the browser and runs an SWF file, that should be good enough for a lot of Flash games. Given that you can have an entire app/game running in a single SWF file, that makes it friendlier to the XO given Sugar+Fedora's weird file management system (as compared to a multi-page HTML educational content package with JPG, PNG GIF graphics). What do you guys think? Despite the fantastic work Rob Savoye co are doing with Gnash, a lot of quality content is inaccessible. Is it really so bad to have a free as in beer closed-source runtime get bundled by OLPC if it will open so many doors? -Naz -- carlos nazareno http://twitter.com/object404 http://www.object404.com -- interactive media specialist zen graffiti studios http://www.zengraffiti.com -- if you don't like the way the world is running, then change it instead of just complaining. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
In reaction to all the posts, I installed AIR on my XO-1.5. - The AIR install took multiple steps, and used mainstream procedures rather than OLPC procedures - Install of an AIR application -- ditto. [The AIR application would not install under user olpc - only under user root.] - The application install wanted to put a shortcut on the desktop -- I'm not using a 'desktop', I'm using the Sugar interface - The application install left cruft in HOME and in /tmp. Some was in a directory named '.kde' -- I don't WANT kde on my XO. - I ended up doing 'kill -9' to get rid of the application's session. I fail to see why an OLPC user would want to run AIR -- go get a netbook (with 'desktop', '.kde', etc.) and stop bastardizing the OLPC. mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
This is an odd argument considering it is quite difficult for a user to create a simple reflash USB stick while using Sugar. Instead we recommend using another computer that uses a regular Desktop.(1) (1)http://wiki.laptop.org/go/No-fail_update On Mar 23, 2010, at 9:46 PM, devel-requ...@lists.laptop.org wrote: Maybe the reason we're miscommunicating is that you don't understand that we aren't willing to expect that our users have access to another computer running Windows (because they don't), or for them to use a text editor to edit content that was created in a GUI (since that's *much* harder, and is treating them as a second-class citizen). The XO is all we have to work with. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
Carlos, +1 Thank you for bringing this up. FYI: One of our largest deployments and two other smaller deployments have received approval to ship Adobe Flash in their builds. IMHO, OLPC would be able to provide deployments with the option of including Adobe Flash, while continuing to include Gnash as default, if they wish to do so without having to jump through the hurdles of applying and waiting for individual approval. Regards, Reuben On Mar 23, 2010, at 12:00 PM, devel-requ...@lists.laptop.org wrote: Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 22:51:42 +0800 From: Carlos Nazareno object...@gmail.com Subject: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO To: devel@lists.laptop.org Message-ID: c58c2c4a1003230751k1391afb4m84e5fe832bff3...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi guys. I know most people here prefer free as in Libre as opposed to free as in beer, but what do you think of coordinating with Adobe to get Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO? Adobe already supports a lot of open-source initiatives and have already open-sourced the Flex SDK which you can use to compile SWFs using text files and a command line a la JDK (or in Windows, using an open-source IDE like Flashdevelop (needs .NET runtime)). http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/flexsdk Flash's spec is open, but they cannot opensource the Flash Player or AIR because they contain technologies which Adobe does not own but pays licensing fees for. With stuff like Youtube (using the camera to record a video, something you cannot do with HTML5), UStream and games (which kids dig a lot), the internet experience really isn't complete without Flash. Moreover, the big difference is that with the Actionscript Virtual Machine 2 which uses Actionscript 3, the speed difference from the AVM1 (Actionscript 1/2 like GNASH) is 10x or more, which is very important since we're talking about low-speed/power devices here. Also, Flash Player 10.1 has been engineered for mobile devices so it should run very efficiently on the XO 1.5 (you can only do so much with the XO-1, but Flash 10 beats GNASH's performance on it nonetheless). Also (sorry John, Rob), Actionscript 2 is a dead technology which needs to be put to rest (and there are few practical open source tools to generate AS2/AVM1 SWFs). GNASH simply cannot catch up with the features that are being implemented with each new release of Flash.. Also, Adobe is actively pushing Flash on as many devices as possible via the Open Screen Project http://www.openscreenproject.org and I'm sure they'd be more than happy to have Flash get bundled on the XO. Also, Flash is the most commonly used toolset for building educational apps. Not everyone has the skill or patience to programmatically animate objects in e-learning applications. What I mean is that it's very efficient. What do you guys think? -- carlos nazareno http://twitter.com/object404 http://www.object404.com -- interactive media specialist zen graffiti studios http://www.zengraffiti.com -- if you don't like the way the world is running, then change it instead of just complaining. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
Hi, Maybe the reason we're miscommunicating is that you don't understand that we aren't willing to expect that our users have access to another computer running Windows (because they don't) [..] This is an odd argument considering it is quite difficult for a user to create a simple reflash USB stick while using Sugar. Instead we recommend using another computer that uses a regular Desktop.(1) This seems to be the fallacy of it's on OLPC's wiki, therefore OLPC wrote it as a guide for its users in deployments. The support-gang wrote this page for the G1G1 community, as the page history shows. In any case, I don't see why it's worthwhile to think of these two problems as remotely comparable: 1) no-one has yet decided to help deployments by spending five minutes writing an activity that downloads a build onto a USB stick plugged into an XO, but anyone could do it at any time, including someone who is a user in a deployment. 2) it is nowhere near possible to properly edit Flash content in a GUI on an XO because the software to do so does not exist, and suffers from a complex and underspecified set of compatibility requirements. - Chris. -- Chris Ball c...@laptop.org One Laptop Per Child ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior
what do you think? 'a' or 'b'? As long as the possibility exists to manually edit a configuration file, I myself will change the sleep behavior to be like 'before'. I do not care whether it takes a keystroke, or pushing the CPU button, to wake from 'sleeping' -- I'll learn through experience. However, I do not favor using the keypad for wake-up. All too often, my wrists stray onto the keypad - and having the system wake up from inadvertent hand placement might be a distraction. Something I can NOT get used to is the current very short time before suspend. I normally use an external keyboard, and lately the XO has even dropped USB power (i.e., stopped accepting keystrokes) before I could finish typing in the __name__ that a new installation asks for. I have to cudgel my brain to remember, at installation time, to get as quickly as possible into My Settings and deactivate suspend -- else the XO is sure to unexpectedly suspend while I am trying to apply my usual customizations (including suspend timing changes) to a new build. Regarding wake-up from a dimmed/blank screen -- likely the normal user behavior is always to press shift. If no screen reaction is seen, say within a second, the user will then probably push on the power button. [If the screen is not dimmed, the user would probably not realize whether the CPU is asleep or not (i.e., he would NOT be paying attention to any LED behaviors) -- and would continue typing, in the expectation that all of his input characters would be used.] I do have to mention one caveat -- at least once, when an XO dropped USB power on me *while* I was trying to enter customization commands, and my finger slipped on the power button -- the XO apparently thought I had double pushed (once to request it to show the suspend choice panel, and immediately again to indicate shutdown) -- and it powered down completely. Please - make sure that it takes a multi-second duration of the power button to perform a *complete* shutdown. mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
