Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
Suggests pretty much throw in the kitchen sink, and most of the time I don't see how they relate to the parent package, so off seems like the best default. Most of the time recommends are useless but not every time. Like with firefox having ca-certificates as a 'recommended' package. Maybe a debconf menu during apt installation? Cheers, chillfan > On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 00:36:22 +0200 > Franco Lanza wrote: > >> Personally on debian i was using from date >> >> APT:Install-Recommends "0"; >> APT:Install-Suggests "0"; >> >> in all my install apt.conf. >> >> I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required >> but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded >> envs, but also on my desktop. >> >> What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? -- Take back your privacy. Switch to www.StartMail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 23:04:25 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 11:36:23AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > A case in point is asciidoc. It's used to generate HTML pages and > > books. To do books it recommends other sofftware that takes about > > a gigabyte on disk. Now the Docbook stuff and the LaTeX stuff are > > necessary for producing books (i.e., printable pdf's) but if you're > > planning on using it to generate web pages it's a real surprise > > when all that stuff gets hauled in. > > TeX does far, far more than just "books". These days printing uses > mostly Windowsish patterns, but, especially last millenium, you > couldn't get a non-toy printer without postscript. And in my time at > the university, any paper you read came in .ps or some TeX-related > form. > > On the other hand, I see the TeX world isn't anywhere as popular as > it was back in the day, so perhaps this Recommends could be > downgraded. Here's my opinion, based on 15 years authoring books for sale, using LyX, which purports itself to be a front end for LaTeX... TeX is a language made for layout on paper. LaTeX is a superset of TeX enabling a use of a wider variety of fonts, and making easier many things you'd want to do with paper. Neither is especially good for describing a styled document not associated with a particular output format. They're too wedded to paper. You can't write TeX or LaTeX and easily transpose it to HTML or ePub. If you anticipate your creation being viewed in anything but PDF (which produces paper), TeX and LaTeX are the wrong authoring environment: They're at best an intermediate stage. HTML and ePub are more popular than PDF today. Xhtml is an excellent native format for styled documents targetted at HTML and ePub, and it's also a pretty good native format to convert to PDF via LaTeX. There's no reason for asciidoc to recommend any TeX of any kind. It can write to HTML just fine (within its limits). TeX is **HUGE**, and you don't want it unless you need it. And any author using asciidoc with the idea of outputting to PDF knows he needs either TeX (LaTeX probably) or some ugly XSLT transform, and can install the necessary stuff. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 11:36:23AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > A case in point is asciidoc. It's used to generate HTML pages and > books. To do books it recommends other sofftware that takes about a > gigabyte on disk. Now the Docbook stuff and the LaTeX stuff are > necessary for producing books (i.e., printable pdf's) but if you're > planning on using it to generate web pages it's a real surprise > when all that stuff gets hauled in. TeX does far, far more than just "books". These days printing uses mostly Windowsish patterns, but, especially last millenium, you couldn't get a non-toy printer without postscript. And in my time at the university, any paper you read came in .ps or some TeX-related form. On the other hand, I see the TeX world isn't anywhere as popular as it was back in the day, so perhaps this Recommends could be downgraded. Thus, if you believe this should be changed, the command you want is "reportbug asciidoc", where you can try to persuade the maintainer that TeX has became a fringe use of asciidoc. Package maintainers (at least when LETS-NOT-UTTER-THAT-NAMEd is not involved) tend to be reasonable people. Alternatively, you can override this in Devuan only, but I believe trimmed Recommends is something better done in the place packaging originates. Meow! -- An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Mon, 01 Aug 2016 14:48:30 +0100 Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Daniel Reurich writes: > > Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago?? > > > > I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable > > for the common case, and that should stay the default except where > > the user wants to maintain a really minimal system, > > The usually 'recommended' software is the zeroconf/ 'LAN party' > networking daemon (avahi) which is almost always useless. > > More generally spoken, neither Recommends: nor Suggests: declarations > should exist to begin with: They both represent a perfectly arbitrary > opinion of the package maintainer and it's not easily possible to > determine what they'll end up installing or for which reasons. Let's say Rainer is accurate in the preceding two paragraphs. In that case, why not, instead of installing recommends or suggests, just list them in a text documentation file suitable for conversion to shellscript, housed in a Devuan-unique directory like /usr/share/deps or something else. That way, a person can look at the document, see what each recommends brings to the table as far as enhancements for the package that was installed, and decide. I spoze it's extra work for the packagers, but it would really help Devuan people keep their machines clean and crisp. And it would be unique to Devuan. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 07:38:07AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 01:55:57PM +1200, Daniel Reurich wrote: > > Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago?? > > > > I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable for the > > common case, and that should stay the default except where the user > > wants to maintain a really minimal system, and is prepared to have to > > install everything not an explicit hard dependency. > > A thousand times this. "Recommends" are meant for _most_ users, not for a > minority who feels an urge to micromanage their systems. And let's say what > the policy says: > > # `Recommends' > # This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency. > # > # The `Recommends' field should list packages that would be found > # together with this one in all but unusual installations. > > With this definition at hand, we can see why you're unhappy. > > It might be that: > * you're unusual (like, a compulsive desire to remove all perceived bloat) > * your needs are unusual (deeply embedded, etc) > * the Recommends is in error > > If it's the last, please file a bug. Either in Devuan, or, preferably in > cases not related to systemd, in Debian. A case in point is asciidoc. It's used to generate HTML pages and books. To do books it recommends other sofftware that takes about a gigabyte on disk. Now the Docbook stuff and the LaTeX stuff are necessary for producing books (i.e., printable pdf's) but if you're planning on using it to generate web pages it's a real surprise when all that stuff gets hauled in. Ideally aptitude should report why a particular package is recommended. If that were merely part of therrecommending package's multiline blurb (which aptitude does display onrrquest), that would be enough for the intelligent user to make a decision. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 04:25:35PM +0200, Jaromil wrote: [cut] > > What is feasible to do and comes out of this thread is to nurture the > documentation about this setting and perhaps aim to add an option in > Ascii about deactivating recommends: and suggests: . OTOH, inside > derivatives like Devuan Minimal Live may want to implement this by > default, but then this would mostly be Katolaz decision. > Well, to be honest that's already done by default for the large majority of the packages included in the Minimal Live images, for obvious reasons :) HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Mon, 01 Aug 2016, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Daniel Reurich writes: > > Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago?? > > > > I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable > > for the common case, and that should stay the default except where > > the user wants to maintain a really minimal system, > > The usually 'recommended' software is the zeroconf/ 'LAN party' > networking daemon (avahi) which is almost always useless. > > More generally spoken, neither Recommends: nor Suggests: declarations > should exist to begin with: They both represent a perfectly arbitrary > opinion of the package maintainer and it's not easily possible to > determine what they'll end up installing or for which reasons. > > People who are convinced that their opinions about 'sensible software > collections' are generally valuable should create meta-packages other > people who want to use them can then install. I wholeheartedly agree with Reiner's interpretation and also with the solution proposed, nevertheless we did have already this conversation and the decision has been taken even before that, by declaring what Devuan needs to be for its 1.0: it needs to be a Debian without systemd, with no other surprises attached. Everyone supporting and donating to Devuan is doing that because they know we are doing what we declared to be doing and with great attention to details. We are not going to change that, because it would betray all promises and expectations on which this project is building upon. What is feasible to do and comes out of this thread is to nurture the documentation about this setting and perhaps aim to add an option in Ascii about deactivating recommends: and suggests: . OTOH, inside derivatives like Devuan Minimal Live may want to implement this by default, but then this would mostly be Katolaz decision. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 02:48:30PM +0100, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Daniel Reurich writes: > > Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago?? > > > > I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable for the > > common case, and that should stay the default except where the user > > wants to maintain a really minimal system, > > The usually 'recommended' software is the zeroconf/ 'LAN party' networking > daemon > (avahi) which is almost always useless. > > More generally spoken, neither Recommends: nor Suggests: declarations > should exist to begin with: They both represent a perfectly arbitrary > opinion of the package maintainer and it's not easily possible to > determine what they'll end up installing or for which reasons. > > People who are convinced that their opinions about 'sensible software > collections' are generally valuable should create meta-packages other > people who want to use them can then install. I would probably agree with the meta-package strategy, the only potential problem being the proliferation of meta-packages for the same "task". I think that the suggestion to let the user decide at install-time whether they want Suggests: and Recommends: is a good one. After all, we will never be able to cover all the possible use cases anyway... My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
Daniel Reurich writes: > Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago?? > > I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable for the > common case, and that should stay the default except where the user > wants to maintain a really minimal system, The usually 'recommended' software is the zeroconf/ 'LAN party' networking daemon (avahi) which is almost always useless. More generally spoken, neither Recommends: nor Suggests: declarations should exist to begin with: They both represent a perfectly arbitrary opinion of the package maintainer and it's not easily possible to determine what they'll end up installing or for which reasons. People who are convinced that their opinions about 'sensible software collections' are generally valuable should create meta-packages other people who want to use them can then install. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On 08/01/2016 01:55 AM, Daniel Reurich wrote: > > I think it may be useful to add a question into the installer about this > (probably only in expert mode) rather than blindly change the current > setting. Where we are rebuilding packages we could certainly review and > potentially reclassify recommends as suggests where it seems appropriate. > Completely agreed. Offering the option to turn off automated installation of recommended packages in expert mode would remind the setting exists to people who would actually care for this kind of details. It makes sense to keep a system minimal, but doesn't for people who just wants things to work out of the box. I suggest adding a paragraph in dev1fanboy's installer guide that clarifies what Suggests and Recommends mean, and the consequence of turning these off or on (the guide goes as far as to suggest setting `APT::AutoRemove::RecommendsImportant "false";`, and although it mentions the case of `ca-certificates` it fails to provide an extensive review of the context.) Pointing at existing documentation in Debian or quoting from it may be sufficient. In general, any default changes from Debian should be well discussed and well documented in advance. Such changes won't happen for JESSIE anyway since we're aiming at *continuity* with Debian Wheezy: we may go faster (e.g., using Slim by default instead of a more expensive GDM) but not in a different direction, IMO. Devuan ASCII is where we can go wild, but we won't go sneaky. :) == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 01:55:57PM +1200, Daniel Reurich wrote: > Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago?? > > I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable for the > common case, and that should stay the default except where the user > wants to maintain a really minimal system, and is prepared to have to > install everything not an explicit hard dependency. A thousand times this. "Recommends" are meant for _most_ users, not for a minority who feels an urge to micromanage their systems. And let's say what the policy says: # `Recommends' # This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency. # # The `Recommends' field should list packages that would be found # together with this one in all but unusual installations. With this definition at hand, we can see why you're unhappy. It might be that: * you're unusual (like, a compulsive desire to remove all perceived bloat) * your needs are unusual (deeply embedded, etc) * the Recommends is in error If it's the last, please file a bug. Either in Devuan, or, preferably in cases not related to systemd, in Debian. Usually such bogus Recommends are an obvious fix, but there _is_ a technical issue that can make this complex: Recommends from libraries. The root of that problem is, in many languages including C, having a library optional is non-trivial. The difficulty in doing so can range from a few lines of code to being impossible within a reasonable amount of effort. Thus, almost no one bothers to, as a superfluous library is just a negligible amount of wasted disk space. Unless that library pulls something else, that is. It's discussed in depth in a previous discussion: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2016/04/msg00162.html An example: (many metapackages)-> [R]: xfce4-power-manager (GUI for power management) [D]: upower (daemon that does the work) [D]: libimobiledevice6 (a library for a minor side feature) [R]: usbmuxd (daemon only for iPod owners) Most of us do want xfce4-power-manager, so [R] is right. It's just a GUI for the daemon, [D] is right. Optional library dependency is lots of work, [D] for technical reasons. The library is useless without its daemon, so... [D] or [R]? My proposed fix for such cases is to forbid Recommends from libraries and moving them to their users, so it'd be upower who decides how much it needs usbmuxd (in this case, not at all). So, when some Recommends offends you, please point it out. I've attached a script (in some heathen language) that shows what unsatisfied Recommends you have on your system. I forgot who's the author of the script, sorry. Meow! -- An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy. #!/usr/bin/python import apt c = apt.Cache() for pkg in c: if pkg.installed is not None: for rd in pkg.candidate.get_dependencies("Recommends"): if not rd.installed_target_versions: print pkg, rd ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
Hi Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago?? I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable for the common case, and that should stay the default except where the user wants to maintain a really minimal system, and is prepared to have to install everything not an explicit hard dependency. I think it may be useful to add a question into the installer about this (probably only in expert mode) rather then blindly change the current setting. Where we are rebuilding packages we could certainly review and potentially reclassifying recommends as suggests where it seems appropriate. The risk is that by blindly changing the current settings in regards, is that those familiar with Debian would get a significantly different result from what they'd expect during an install. So I'd agree on providing the option during installation, but I stand strongly opposed to changing the default blindly just to suit a few power users preferences. Regards, Daniel. On 31/07/16 23:47, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 00:36:22 +0200 > Franco Lanza wrote: > >> Personally on debian i was using from date >> >> APT:Install-Recommends "0"; >> APT:Install-Suggests "0"; >> >> in all my install apt.conf. >> >> I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required >> but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded >> envs, but also on my desktop. >> >> What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? > > I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years > > # cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends > Apt::Install-Suggests false; > Apt::Install-Recommends false; > -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and, "Recommends" dependency?
Hi Nextime, On 07/31/2016 02:00 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: Franco Lanza wrote: >Personally on debian i was using from date > >APT:Install-Recommends "0"; >APT:Install-Suggests "0"; > >in all my install apt.conf. > >I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required >but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded >envs, but also on my desktop. > >What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years # cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends Apt::Install-Suggests false; Apt::Install-Recommends false; Cheers, Ron. This is the configuration recommended by dev1fanboy in his guide about how to upgrade from debian to devuan: https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/Upgrade-to-Devuan-and-minimalism Cheers, Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On 07/31/2016 02:20 PM, Paweł Cholewiński wrote: > > First law of software quality picture from nixcraft .. > Oh, they even provided a line of examples :) BTW, I thought this suggests/recommends set to false were already agreed upon, so +1 here. (Sorry I didn't take the time to read the whole thread.) == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
W dniu 31.07.2016 o 13:47, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI pisze: On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 00:36:22 +0200 Franco Lanza wrote: Personally on debian i was using from date APT:Install-Recommends "0"; APT:Install-Suggests "0"; in all my install apt.conf. I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded envs, but also on my desktop. What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years # cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends Apt::Install-Suggests false; Apt::Install-Recommends false; Cheers, Ron. First law of software quality picture from nixcraft .. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 00:36:22 +0200 Franco Lanza wrote: > Personally on debian i was using from date > > APT:Install-Recommends "0"; > APT:Install-Suggests "0"; > > in all my install apt.conf. > > I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required > but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded > envs, but also on my desktop. > > What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years # cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends Apt::Install-Suggests false; Apt::Install-Recommends false; Cheers, Ron. -- They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 07:43:26PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote: > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Franco Lanza [mailto:next...@nexlab.it] > > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 5:36 PM > > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > > Subject: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" > > dependency? > > > > Personally on debian i was using from date > > > > APT:Install-Recommends "0"; > > APT:Install-Suggests "0"; > > > > in all my install apt.conf. > > > > I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required > but > > just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded envs, but > > also on my desktop. > > > > What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? > > > [T.J. ] Personally, I love the idea. However, in certain instances, like > "-dev" packages or "build environments", where the recommended should really > be followed. I'd follow it wherever Perl or Python is involved as well, > even if you aren't working on code, just to make sure everything works > smoothly. No, this is fundamentally incorrect. Building should always be deterministic. This means never ever using Suggests or Recommends. sbuild, for example, always sets APT::Install-Recommends=false. In addition, it will also drop conditional dependencies so that only the first will be used, again for determinism. Less strict behaviour is fine when installing packages for a developer to use on their development machine, but for automated/final builds for deployment elsewhere, such as Debian package building, it's essential that the necessary packages are completely and unambiguously specified with plain Depends. Regards, Roger -- .''`. Roger Leigh : :' : Debian GNU/Linuxhttp://people.debian.org/~rleigh/ `. `' schroot and sbuild http://alioth.debian.org/projects/buildd-tools `-GPG Public Key F33D 281D 470A B443 6756 147C 07B3 C8BC 4083 E800 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On 04/03/2015 01:28 PM, Anto wrote: > > The login form seems to support the synchronisation with Gitlab account, > which I also already registered a few months back. But I got nginx 404 > error when I clicked on "with Gitlab". > *** The single-sign-on with Gitlab requires a Gitlab setting which I don't control. It was supposed to come with last upgrade (March 20?) but I didn't get notified about anything, so I'm calling whoever is root on git.devuan.org to coordinate with me so we can have this running soon. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 09:40:41PM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: [cut] > > Note that for a minimal dependencies default, the options to > apt-get are not ideal. We have these two options related to > the dependency graph. > >--no-install-recommends >Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for > installing. >Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends. > >--install-suggests >Consider suggested packages as a dependency for installing. >Configuration Item: APT::Install-Suggests. > > Looks like we need to add this: > >--install-recommends >Consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing. >Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends. > AFAIR the default policy in Debian (up to wheezy) was to have Recommends installed, but not Suggests. This seems a sensible strategy in many cases, since usually Recommends are packages which are actually *necessary* to some functionality of a package (and many users would be disappointed in discovering that most of the things that "are just there" automagically when you apt-get install something, won't be there if you don't bring in Recomennds). But that has not been the policy of Ubuntu (at least in the very few early releases), which had --install-suggests on by default (I don't know what happend to Ubuntu after Hoary, to be honest ;)) Anyway, I second the addition of an explicit --install-recommends, which would be more clear that --no-install-recommends=no My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On 04/04/15 09:40, Joel Roth wrote: Note that for a minimal dependencies default, the options to apt-get are not ideal. We have these two options related to the dependency graph. --no-install-recommends Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends. --install-suggests Consider suggested packages as a dependency for installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Suggests. Looks like we need to add this: --install-recommends Consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends. cheers, Joel Hello Joel, As others, I prefer to have control over the packages that I am installing, so apt-get only pulls the necessary packages related to the one I am installing instead of pulling everything else which I don't need. For desktops, as I mentioned previously, I have to be more careful in installing packages without the "Recommended" and "Suggested" packages (my default setting). I usually take a note on the list of "Recommended" and "Suggested" packages. If something didn't work properly, I install the "Recommended" packages first from the list. If that still didn't work, I install "Suggested" packages. If that also didn't work, I purge all of those packages and search for other alternatives :) Cheers, Anto ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Fri 03 April 2015 21:40:41 Joel Roth wrote: > On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 08:18:29AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 12:36:22AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: > > > Personally on debian i was using from date > > > > > > APT:Install-Recommends "0"; > > > APT:Install-Suggests "0"; > > > > > > in all my install apt.conf. > > > > > > I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required > > > but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded > > > envs, but also on my desktop. > > > > > > What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? > > > > Hi, > > > > please go on. Always hated to have too much garbage installed. > > Note that for a minimal dependencies default, the options to > apt-get are not ideal. We have these two options related to > the dependency graph. > >--no-install-recommends >Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for > installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends. > >--install-suggests >Consider suggested packages as a dependency for installing. >Configuration Item: APT::Install-Suggests. > > Looks like we need to add this: > >--install-recommends >Consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing. >Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends. > [quote man apt-get] OPTIONS All command line options may be set using the configuration file, the descriptions indicate the configuration option to set. For boolean options you can override the config file by using something **like -f-,--no-f, -f=no or several other variations.** --no-install-recommends Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends. [/quote] So maybe --no-install-recommends=no or --install-recommends or --no-no-install-recommends actually I tested apt-get --install-recommends ( -s install) ...` and it seems to work just fine. So probablyI misunderstood the "we need to add" which was meant as "add this parameter to the command issued" rather than "add this option to apt-get option parser / valid syntax" /j (sorry Joel for previous direct mail) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 08:18:29AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 12:36:22AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: > > Personally on debian i was using from date > > > > APT:Install-Recommends "0"; > > APT:Install-Suggests "0"; > > > > in all my install apt.conf. > > > > I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required > > but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded > > envs, but also on my desktop. > > > > What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? > > > > Hi, > > please go on. Always hated to have too much garbage installed. Note that for a minimal dependencies default, the options to apt-get are not ideal. We have these two options related to the dependency graph. --no-install-recommends Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends. --install-suggests Consider suggested packages as a dependency for installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Suggests. Looks like we need to add this: --install-recommends Consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends. cheers, Joel > HND > > KatolaZ > > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 12:36:22AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: > Personally on debian i was using from date > > APT:Install-Recommends "0"; > APT:Install-Suggests "0"; > > in all my install apt.conf. > > I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required > but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded > envs, but also on my desktop. > > What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? > Hi, please go on. Always hated to have too much garbage installed. HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Fri, 4/3/15, Anto wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency? To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:28 AM On 03/04/15 01:53, hellekin wrote: > Oh, did I just announce the Devuan forum? You did! And I just registered myself there. The login form seems to support the synchronisation with Gitlab account, which I also already registered a few months back. But I got nginx 404 error when I clicked on "with Gitlab". Yes, hellekin put in a monumental effort to get the forum up and running. Kudos to him for his contribution! Unfortunately, the icon rendering is locked in to the font. I posted about this over at Mozillazine - http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2925899 patrickjdempsey's statement sums up the problem nicely: "At this time there is no way to force websites to use a specific font and also have these kinds of icons appear. I've personally been attempting to find a way to make a CSS hack for that and it appears that the way that web fonts have been implemented is so incredibly stupid and shortsighted that it's not possible to work around. I'm not even sure who to blame for the stupidity of the implementation... it's just bad all around." Ironic that a distribution which is based on the user's freedom to choose, would utilize a font that denies a user the option to chose their preferred font on the web. I'm not happy about this and It will probably keep me from participating in the forum . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On 03/04/15 01:53, hellekin wrote: Oh, did I just announce the Devuan forum? You did! And I just registered myself there. The login form seems to support the synchronisation with Gitlab account, which I also already registered a few months back. But I got nginx 404 error when I clicked on "with Gitlab". ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On 03/04/15 00:36, Franco Lanza wrote: Personally on debian i was using from date APT:Install-Recommends "0"; APT:Install-Suggests "0"; in all my install apt.conf. I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded envs, but also on my desktop. What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? Hello Franco, I have been using this exact same setting for years in apt.conf.d folder of my servers and desktops. So I really support this idea. It is very safe and good setting especially for servers, in my opinion. However, on my desktops sometime I have to be more careful to check the "Suggested" and "Recommended" packages when installing something as I had some issues because of that setting. I don't remember exactly which packages experience the issues, but the most recent issue that I had was on parole or possibly on xfce4-mixer where I could not hear mp3 music on my USB headset, only on my PC speaker. It was fixed after I installed audacious with all its "Suggested" and "Recommended" packages. I didn't try further to find out which packages are actually required by parole as I only wanted to hear music that night :) Cheers, Anto ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Franco Lanza wrote: > Personally on debian i was using from date > > APT:Install-Recommends "0"; > APT:Install-Suggests "0"; +1 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
> -Original Message- > From: Franco Lanza [mailto:next...@nexlab.it] > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 5:36 PM > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Subject: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" > dependency? > > Personally on debian i was using from date > > APT:Install-Recommends "0"; > APT:Install-Suggests "0"; > > in all my install apt.conf. > > I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required but > just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded envs, but > also on my desktop. > > What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? [T.J. ] Personally, I love the idea. However, in certain instances, like "-dev" packages or "build environments", where the recommended should really be followed. I'd follow it wherever Perl or Python is involved as well, even if you aren't working on code, just to make sure everything works smoothly. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On 04/02/2015 07:36 PM, Franco Lanza wrote: > Personally on debian i was using from date > > APT:Install-Recommends "0"; > APT:Install-Suggests "0"; > > What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? > *** +1. I'm all for minimalism in Devuan, and encouraging people to use Blends for extended setups. Maybe there should be a meta-package that people who expect the system to suck in everything can install to get back the greedy experience. In any case, this should be documented. In the upcoming https://talk.devuan.org/ there's a topic to document and discuss the differences between Jessie the cowgirl and Jessie the minor planet. Oh, did I just announce the Devuan forum? == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
I'm all for it. If there are a set of packages that usually get installed together, we can create a metapackage for them. -Jude On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 6:36 PM, Franco Lanza wrote: > Personally on debian i was using from date > > APT:Install-Recommends "0"; > APT:Install-Suggests "0"; > > in all my install apt.conf. > > I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required > but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded > envs, but also on my desktop. > > What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? > > > > -- > > Franco (nextime) Lanza > Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy > SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it > web: http://www.nexlab.net > > NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org > you can download my public key at: > http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers > Key ID = D6132D50 > Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 > --- > echo > 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq > | dc > --- > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
Personally on debian i was using from date APT:Install-Recommends "0"; APT:Install-Suggests "0"; in all my install apt.conf. I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded envs, but also on my desktop. What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng