RE: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. IEC 62102 (Table B.1) declares that for safety purposes Ethernet 10base5 is considered a TNV-1 circuit. Other Ethernet circuits are considered SELV. The internal circuits they connect to in your case are likely to be SELV (although not necessarily, for example they could be TNV3, ELV, or even hazardous). The isolation needed is described in IEC 60950 (3rd or 4th ed) Figure 2F and Table 2G. The isolation needed for functional reasons is derived from the IEEE specs which have been discussed in other responses. Bob Johnson ITE Safety From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Alex McNeil Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:56 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance Hi Forum, Are there any ethernet and PCB safety requirements, ie are there rules like those for the modem side of things (isolation in particular) or is the transformer sufficient? Kind Regards Alex McNeil Principal Engineer Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375 Fax:+44 (0)131 479 8321 email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Title: RE: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance IEC 62102 (Table B.1) declares that for safety purposes Ethernet 10base5 is considered a TNV-1 circuit. Other Ethernet circuits are considered SELV. The internal circuits they connect to in your case are likely to be SELV (although not necessarily, for example they could be TNV3, ELV, or even hazardous). The isolation needed is described in IEC 60950 (3rd or 4th ed) Figure 2F and Table 2G. The isolation needed for functional reasons is derived from the IEEE specs which have been discussed in other responses. Bob Johnson ITE Safety -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Alex McNeil Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:56 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance Hi Forum, Are there any ethernet and PCB safety requirements, ie are there rules like those for the modem side of things (isolation in particular) or is the transformer sufficient? Kind Regards Alex McNeil Principal Engineer Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375 Fax:+44 (0)131 479 8321 email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc <>
Re: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance
I read in !emc-pstc that neve...@attbi.com wrote (in <200302061923.h16JN 5k29...@orion2.ieee.org>) about 'Ethernet Creepage and Clearance' on Thu, 6 Feb 2003: >There shall be no insulation breakdown, as defined in Section 5.3.2 of IEC >60950, 1991, That's OLD! -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance
The isolation is handled by: a) transformer AND b) clearance/dielectric between "ground" and the nets that connect between the connector and the transformer. On the practical side, 5 mil of FR4 is enough to provide isolation in inner layers, and min of about 50-75 mil on the ouoter layers. The moat under transformer has nothing to do with it. Neven > > > Not for safety, sorry the 802 reference was from the IEEE 802.3 > Ethernet > standards. I forget which section but there is a section on the electrical > characteristics for the port and the wiring. Unless its been changed there is > 1500 v isolation requirement between signals and chassis. Quite often that was > handled by separate ground plains between system and the Ethernet drivers. If > you look at a system that has external magnetic you cans see the split between > the input and output of the magnetics. It was there for noise control as well. > If the SELV is earthed (logic and chassis kinda-sorta the same point) > its functional between that and unearthed SELV, or earthed or unearthed TNV-1, > basic for the rest. Table 2G or figure 2F. > The follow your mains voltage, pollution degrees, and whether or not you going > to see transients and it'll give you the figures your looking for. > Gary > -Original Message- > From: Peter L. Tarver [mailto:peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 7:30 AM > To: Alex McNeil; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org > Subject: RE: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance > > > > Ethernet is an SELV signal circuit. Fully IEEE 802.3 > compliant products will not require any special treatment. > Just the usual materials requirements regarding > flammability. > > If this is a powered VOIP product, there may be some > additional things to consider. > > Please be certain to purchase a copy of and read the > standard. > > Regards, > > Peter L. Tarver, PE > Product Safety Manager > Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services > San Jose, CA > peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Alex McNeil > > Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:56 PM > > > > Hi Forum, > > Are there any ethernet and PCB safety > > requirements, ie are there rules like > > those for the modem side of things (isolation in > > particular) or is the > > transformer sufficient? > > > > Kind Regards > > Alex McNeil > > Principal Engineer > > Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375 > > Fax:+44 (0)131 479 8321 > > email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com > > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance
Per high-voltage isolation requirement of IEEE 802.3, 2000, Ethernet front-end (media-side) must meet at least (any) one of the following three tests: a) 1500 V rms at 50 Hz to 60 Hz for 60 s, applied as specified in Section 5.3.2 of IEC 60950, 1991 b) 2250 Vdc for 60 s, applied as specified in Section 5.3.2of IEC 60950, 1991 c) a sequence of ten 2400 V impulses of alternating polarity, applied at intervals not less than 1 s. The shape of the impulses shall be 1.2/50 us (1.2 us virtual front time, 50 us virtual time of half value), as defined in IEC 60060. There shall be no insulation breakdown, as defined in Section 5.3.2 of IEC 60950, 1991, during the test. The resistance after the test shall be at least 2 MOhm, measured at 500 Vdc. Neven > > Hi Forum, > Are there any ethernet and PCB safety requirements, ie are there rules like > those for the modem side of things (isolation in particular) or is the > transformer sufficient? > > Kind Regards > Alex McNeil > Principal Engineer > Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375 > Fax:+44 (0)131 479 8321 > email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com > > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance
Not for safety, sorry the 802 reference was from the IEEE 802.3 Ethernet standards. I forget which section but there is a section on the electrical characteristics for the port and the wiring. Unless its been changed there is 1500 v isolation requirement between signals and chassis. Quite often that was handled by separate ground plains between system and the Ethernet drivers. If you look at a system that has external magnetic you cans see the split between the input and output of the magnetics. It was there for noise control as well. If the SELV is earthed (logic and chassis kinda-sorta the same point) its functional between that and unearthed SELV, or earthed or unearthed TNV-1, basic for the rest. Table 2G or figure 2F. The follow your mains voltage, pollution degrees, and whether or not you going to see transients and it'll give you the figures your looking for. Gary From: Peter L. Tarver [mailto:peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 7:30 AM To: Alex McNeil; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance Ethernet is an SELV signal circuit. Fully IEEE 802.3 compliant products will not require any special treatment. Just the usual materials requirements regarding flammability. If this is a powered VOIP product, there may be some additional things to consider. Please be certain to purchase a copy of and read the standard. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services San Jose, CA peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com > -Original Message- > From: Alex McNeil > Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:56 PM > > Hi Forum, > Are there any ethernet and PCB safety > requirements, ie are there rules like > those for the modem side of things (isolation in > particular) or is the > transformer sufficient? > > Kind Regards > Alex McNeil > Principal Engineer > Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375 > Fax:+44 (0)131 479 8321 > email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance
I read in !emc-pstc that Alex McNeil wrote (in <5685ADDE2285D511925200508BB9F5031EC33B@FORT2>) about 'Ethernet Creepage and Clearance' on Thu, 6 Feb 2003: >Are there any ethernet and PCB safety requirements, ie are there rules like >those for the modem side of things (isolation in particular) or is the >transformer sufficient? Look in IEC/EN 60950 or UL 950. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance
Unless of course it self limits the current etc when max power is measured, or not provided. Gary From: david_ster...@ademco.com [mailto:david_ster...@ademco.com] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 5:43 AM To: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance The only safty reg I know of pertains to the 15-pin DB-mini connector for the 'AUI' interface: Safety agencies require a fuse (or current-limiting) on AUI Pin 13 which sources 12 volts. Otherwise they consider the AUI 'hazardous', requiring all sorts of stickers and warnings. ANSI/IEEE 802.3 specifies 300mA source capability for the AUI but not all AUI interfaces are 802.3 compliant; they may source less than 300mA. Review all power supply outputs (PC card, custom adapters) to verify they are limited-current per EN 60950. David From: Alex McNeil [mailto:alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:56 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance Hi Forum, Are there any ethernet and PCB safety requirements, ie are there rules like those for the modem side of things (isolation in particular) or is the transformer sufficient? Kind Regards Alex McNeil Principal Engineer Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375 Fax:+44 (0)131 479 8321 email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance
Ethernet is an SELV signal circuit. Fully IEEE 802.3 compliant products will not require any special treatment. Just the usual materials requirements regarding flammability. If this is a powered VOIP product, there may be some additional things to consider. Please be certain to purchase a copy of and read the standard. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services San Jose, CA peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com > -Original Message- > From: Alex McNeil > Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:56 PM > > Hi Forum, > Are there any ethernet and PCB safety > requirements, ie are there rules like > those for the modem side of things (isolation in > particular) or is the > transformer sufficient? > > Kind Regards > Alex McNeil > Principal Engineer > Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375 > Fax:+44 (0)131 479 8321 > email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance
The only safty reg I know of pertains to the 15-pin DB-mini connector for the 'AUI' interface: Safety agencies require a fuse (or current-limiting) on AUI Pin 13 which sources 12 volts. Otherwise they consider the AUI 'hazardous', requiring all sorts of stickers and warnings. ANSI/IEEE 802.3 specifies 300mA source capability for the AUI but not all AUI interfaces are 802.3 compliant; they may source less than 300mA. Review all power supply outputs (PC card, custom adapters) to verify they are limited-current per EN 60950. David From: Alex McNeil [mailto:alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:56 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Ethernet Creepage and Clearance Hi Forum, Are there any ethernet and PCB safety requirements, ie are there rules like those for the modem side of things (isolation in particular) or is the transformer sufficient? Kind Regards Alex McNeil Principal Engineer Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375 Fax:+44 (0)131 479 8321 email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Ethernet Creepage and Clearance
Hi Forum, Are there any ethernet and PCB safety requirements, ie are there rules like those for the modem side of things (isolation in particular) or is the transformer sufficient? Kind Regards Alex McNeil Principal Engineer Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375 Fax:+44 (0)131 479 8321 email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
