Re: Possibility of standardized sprintf() in ES4?
On Oct 28, 2007, at 4:39 PM, Dan Scott wrote: > Ah, fabulous - it seems that although the term "sprintf" appears in > the wiki, it's highlighted and therefore doesn't turn up in a > search for the term. And I was too dumb to search for "string > format" -- thanks for letting me know that the issue had been > raised in the past and that there had been some discussion about it. I'm not sure the wiki search indexing is working correctly atm. We'll look into it. > In my view, it's simply a gap in the standard library (and I > apologize if this was not the correct forum to raise concerns about > the standard library vs. the core language spec). No worries, for better or worse, ECMA-262 specifies both core language and standard library. > As I noted at the outset, there are a wide variety of sprintf() > (and probably String.format()) implementations already out in the > wild under various licenses and with varying sophistication. I > believe that adding such a method to the standard library would > help simplify the current situation and increase the ease of > reusing code between projects. But which one? Whose ox gets gored? What about l10n? Etc. You can tell we didn't have the bandwidth to take this on, and with so many JS libs purveying variations on a theme, we chose the virtue of not committing the standard to one particular string formatting library. But no matter the timing, having a concrete proposal would help. Can you link to the Microsoft String.format API doc? /be ___ Es4-discuss mailing list Es4-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es4-discuss
Re: Possibility of standardized sprintf() in ES4?
On 27/10/2007, Brendan Eich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Oct 27, 2007, at 11:06 AM, Dan Scott wrote: > > > Just following up on the discussion - since I've seen an > > announcement that the spec for ES4 is now closed, does this mean > > that a proposal for an addition of a standardized sprintf / format > > addition to the String object is off the table until ES5? Or have > > the Ecma members of the group decided that there is no actual > > requirement for this functionality? > > See http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php? > id=discussion:string_formatting and also http://wiki.ecmascript.org/ > doku.php?id=meetings:minutes_feb_24_2006&s=string+formatting, which > contains: > > # String formatting choices: > * Leave out, defer to the emergent standard library ecology? > Then lose type system tie-in opportunites. > * .NET vs. MSCOM vs. Java vs. others leaves no single obvious > choice of what to imitate. > * OCaml, other precedents? Roll-our-own function-combinatorial > typed formatting? Too inconvenient. > * Ed points out that strings imply localization, more worms. > > These considerations suggested to us that we defer this to the > library ecosystem. But we could have missed an opportunity here. Ah, fabulous - it seems that although the term "sprintf" appears in the wiki, it's highlighted and therefore doesn't turn up in a search for the term. And I was too dumb to search for "string format" -- thanks for letting me know that the issue had been raised in the past and that there had been some discussion about it. > Beyond raising this issue on the mailing list and finding some > > support in principle for the proposal, if not for the actual form > > of the proposal, I'm not sure what the next step is supposed to be. > > It does seem like a major functionality gap in the language, to me, > > but I'm only one small voice. > > In your view, is it a gap in the standard library, a gap to fill by > competing libraries before anything is standardized, or truly a gap > in the core language? For there to be a gap in the core language, it > seems to me the proposal must involve static type checking of actual > arguments against format specifiers. Otherwise, as Lars noted in the > discussion page, even ES3 has enough reflection to build a > dynamically type-safe formatter as library code. Successful Ajax > libraries have built such things. I n my view, it's simply a gap in the standard library (and I apologize if this was not the correct forum to raise concerns about the standard library vs. the core language spec). As I noted at the outset, there are a wide variety of sprintf() (and probably String.format()) implementations already out in the wild under various licenses and with varying sophistication. I believe that adding such a method to the standard library would help simplify the current situation and increase the ease of reusing code between projects. Thanks for taking the time to respond, Brendan - I really appreciate it, as well as the rest of your efforts to bring ES4 to fruition. -- Dan Scott Laurentian University ___ Es4-discuss mailing list Es4-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es4-discuss
Re: Possibility of standardized sprintf() in ES4?
On Oct 27, 2007, at 11:06 AM, Dan Scott wrote: > Just following up on the discussion - since I've seen an > announcement that the spec for ES4 is now closed, does this mean > that a proposal for an addition of a standardized sprintf / format > addition to the String object is off the table until ES5? Or have > the Ecma members of the group decided that there is no actual > requirement for this functionality? See http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php? id=discussion:string_formatting and also http://wiki.ecmascript.org/ doku.php?id=meetings:minutes_feb_24_2006&s=string+formatting, which contains: # String formatting choices: * Leave out, defer to the emergent standard library ecology? Then lose type system tie-in opportunites. * .NET vs. MSCOM vs. Java vs. others leaves no single obvious choice of what to imitate. * OCaml, other precedents? Roll-our-own function-combinatorial typed formatting? Too inconvenient. * Ed points out that strings imply localization, more worms. These considerations suggested to us that we defer this to the library ecosystem. But we could have missed an opportunity here. > Beyond raising this issue on the mailing list and finding some > support in principle for the proposal, if not for the actual form > of the proposal, I'm not sure what the next step is supposed to be. > It does seem like a major functionality gap in the language, to me, > but I'm only one small voice. In your view, is it a gap in the standard library, a gap to fill by competing libraries before anything is standardized, or truly a gap in the core language? For there to be a gap in the core language, it seems to me the proposal must involve static type checking of actual arguments against format specifiers. Otherwise, as Lars noted in the discussion page, even ES3 has enough reflection to build a dynamically type-safe formatter as library code. Successful Ajax libraries have built such things. /be ___ Es4-discuss mailing list Es4-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es4-discuss
Re: Possibility of standardized sprintf() in ES4?
On 16/10/2007, Alex Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > [ snip ] > > > Sure. From what I can see of the Microsoft documentation a > > standardized String.format() function would meet the need for a > > standardized way of formatting a string just as well as a method > > based on C/Perl/PHP/Ruby sprintf() and Python's native string > > formatting, where named parameters are used instead of positional > > parameters. > > Python allows both, and I prefer that style. > > > Assuming there are no intellectual property concerns with adopting > > Microsoft's specification for this method, it would satisfy my use > > case for a string formatting method that accepts explicit positional > > or named parameters in support of internationalized text. I would > > simply be delighted if ES4 saved me and others from having to roll > > our own string formatter classes! > > Eh, just go w/ Python's. It's more flexible, "feels" more like printf > if/when you need it to, and can be used in the .NET-ish way. > Just following up on the discussion - since I've seen an announcement that the spec for ES4 is now closed, does this mean that a proposal for an addition of a standardized sprintf / format addition to the String object is off the table until ES5? Or have the Ecma members of the group decided that there is no actual requirement for this functionality? Beyond raising this issue on the mailing list and finding some support in principle for the proposal, if not for the actual form of the proposal, I'm not sure what the next step is supposed to be. It does seem like a major functionality gap in the language, to me, but I'm only one small voice. -- Dan Scott Laurentian University ___ Es4-discuss mailing list Es4-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es4-discuss
Re: Possibility of standardized sprintf() in ES4?
[ snip ] > Sure. From what I can see of the Microsoft documentation a > standardized String.format() function would meet the need for a > standardized way of formatting a string just as well as a method > based on C/Perl/PHP/Ruby sprintf() and Python's native string > formatting, where named parameters are used instead of positional > parameters. Python allows both, and I prefer that style. > Assuming there are no intellectual property concerns with adopting > Microsoft's specification for this method, it would satisfy my use > case for a string formatting method that accepts explicit positional > or named parameters in support of internationalized text. I would > simply be delighted if ES4 saved me and others from having to roll > our own string formatter classes! Eh, just go w/ Python's. It's more flexible, "feels" more like printf if/when you need it to, and can be used in the .NET-ish way. Regards -- Alex Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] A99F 8785 F491 D5FD 04D7 ACD9 4158 FFDF 2894 6876 [EMAIL PROTECTED] BE03 E88D EABB 2116 CC49 8259 CF78 E242 59C3 9723 pgp3LKURV6n3e.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Es4-discuss mailing list Es4-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es4-discuss
RE: Possibility of standardized sprintf() in ES4?
I would be all for .NET's String.Format() style of formatting. Adobe Flex
provides a similar method in StringUtil.substitute() which provides ordered
substitution using the same {0} and {1} style tokens, but doesn't have any
formatting.
Sam
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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of zwetan
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 5:51 PM
To: Dan Scott
Cc: es4-discuss@mozilla.org
Subject: Re: Possibility of standardized sprintf() in ES4?
Hi,
...
>
> Is there any other interest in adding a native sprintf() (probably as
> String.sprintf()) to the ES4 specs?
>
I'm interested in string formating, but surely not sprintf
I don't find it intuitive at all
I prefer something closer to String.format from .NET
but more dynamic and being able to use sort of tokens
like the ones you can use with E4X ({token})
see here for an implementation
http://maashaack.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ES4a/src/system/Strings.as
( public static function format( format:String, ...args ):String )
cheers,
zwetan
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Re: Possibility of standardized sprintf() in ES4?
On 15/10/2007, ekameleon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello :)
>
> Yes i prefere too the Strings.format implementation :) For me it's an
> important feature and can be insert in the core String methods :)
>
> EKA+ :)
>
> 2007/10/15, zwetan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > ...
> > >
> > > Is there any other interest in adding a native sprintf() (probably as
> > > String.sprintf()) to the ES4 specs?
> > >
> >
> > I'm interested in string formating, but surely not sprintf
> > I don't find it intuitive at all
> >
> > I prefer something closer to String.format from .NET
> > but more dynamic and being able to use sort of tokens
> > like the ones you can use with E4X ({token})
> >
> > see here for an implementation
> > http://maashaack.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ES4a/src/system/Strings.as
> > ( public static function format( format:String, ...args ):String )
> >
> > cheers,
> > zwetan
> > ___
> > Es4-discuss mailing list
> > Es4-discuss@mozilla.org
> > https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es4-discuss
> >
>
>
> ___
> Es4-discuss mailing list
> Es4-discuss@mozilla.org
> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es4-discuss
>
>
Sure. From what I can see of the Microsoft documentation a standardized
String.format() function would meet the need for a standardized way of
formatting a string just as well as a method based on C/Perl/PHP/Ruby
sprintf() and Python's native string formatting, where named parameters are
used instead of positional parameters.
Assuming there are no intellectual property concerns with adopting
Microsoft's specification for this method, it would satisfy my use case for
a string formatting method that accepts explicit positional or named
parameters in support of internationalized text. I would simply be delighted
if ES4 saved me and others from having to roll our own string formatter
classes!
--
Dan Scott
Laurentian University
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Re: Possibility of standardized sprintf() in ES4?
Hello :)
Yes i prefere too the Strings.format implementation :) For me it's an
important feature and can be insert in the core String methods :)
EKA+ :)
2007/10/15, zwetan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Hi,
>
> ...
> >
> > Is there any other interest in adding a native sprintf() (probably as
> > String.sprintf()) to the ES4 specs?
> >
>
> I'm interested in string formating, but surely not sprintf
> I don't find it intuitive at all
>
> I prefer something closer to String.format from .NET
> but more dynamic and being able to use sort of tokens
> like the ones you can use with E4X ({token})
>
> see here for an implementation
> http://maashaack.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ES4a/src/system/Strings.as
> ( public static function format( format:String, ...args ):String )
>
> cheers,
> zwetan
> ___
> Es4-discuss mailing list
> Es4-discuss@mozilla.org
> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es4-discuss
>
___
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Re: Possibility of standardized sprintf() in ES4?
Hi,
...
>
> Is there any other interest in adding a native sprintf() (probably as
> String.sprintf()) to the ES4 specs?
>
I'm interested in string formating, but surely not sprintf
I don't find it intuitive at all
I prefer something closer to String.format from .NET
but more dynamic and being able to use sort of tokens
like the ones you can use with E4X ({token})
see here for an implementation
http://maashaack.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ES4a/src/system/Strings.as
( public static function format( format:String, ...args ):String )
cheers,
zwetan
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Re: Possibility of standardized sprintf() in ES4?
I would be very interested in this. Have a look at our implementation (not called sprintf, but has similar goals). Our implementation has an additional goal of keeping an association between the result string and the objects it represents. Being a dynamic language, I think es4 should aspire to more than just C sprintf. http://svn.openlaszlo.org/openlaszlo/trunk/WEB-INF/lps/lfc/compiler/ LzFormatter.lzs Our source is licensed under CPL. http://svn.openlaszlo.org/openlaszlo/trunk/LICENSE.txt On 2007-10-15, at 08:27 EDT, Dan Scott wrote: > Hello: > > I've been working on a project requiring i18n support in ES > (http://open-ils.org), and it's become clear that a standard sprintf() > implementation in ES would have been very useful. There are currently > some open-source sprintf() implementations written in ES, but all of > the ones I've looked at so far seem to either have unusual licenses or > incomplete implementations (positional specifier support is absolutely > necessary for i18n, for example.) > http://hexmen.com/blog/2007/03/printf-sprintf/ is probably the closest > thing I've found to a solution yet. > > For something as basic as string formatting, it would be great to be > able to count on a core implementation of sprintf() (or something > equivalent) in a future version of ES. Jon Udell made a comment to the > effect that string formatting was a part of the TG1 wiki at > http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roadmap/archives/2006/02/ > js_and_python_news.html, > but I've been unable to find that section in the wiki (unless that is > limited strictly to String.replace()). > > Is there any other interest in adding a native sprintf() (probably as > String.sprintf()) to the ES4 specs? > > -- > Dan Scott > Laurentian University > ___ > Es4-discuss mailing list > Es4-discuss@mozilla.org > https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es4-discuss ___ Es4-discuss mailing list Es4-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es4-discuss
Possibility of standardized sprintf() in ES4?
Hello: I've been working on a project requiring i18n support in ES (http://open-ils.org), and it's become clear that a standard sprintf() implementation in ES would have been very useful. There are currently some open-source sprintf() implementations written in ES, but all of the ones I've looked at so far seem to either have unusual licenses or incomplete implementations (positional specifier support is absolutely necessary for i18n, for example.) http://hexmen.com/blog/2007/03/printf-sprintf/ is probably the closest thing I've found to a solution yet. For something as basic as string formatting, it would be great to be able to count on a core implementation of sprintf() (or something equivalent) in a future version of ES. Jon Udell made a comment to the effect that string formatting was a part of the TG1 wiki at http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roadmap/archives/2006/02/js_and_python_news.html, but I've been unable to find that section in the wiki (unless that is limited strictly to String.replace()). Is there any other interest in adding a native sprintf() (probably as String.sprintf()) to the ES4 specs? -- Dan Scott Laurentian University ___ Es4-discuss mailing list Es4-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es4-discuss
