Re: [expert] future distro ideas
:~I am not sure what you are referring to here. :~We had a power outage and I was all worried because :~everyone talks about what happens when you don't :~cleanly boot out of Linux, but it came back up fine. :~It forces a 'scan' of the Linux partitions, but they come :~back 'passed'. Once in a while it can happen that you have to run fsck manually and answer "yes" to all its question. It can happen that you loose a file or two in a proces - parts of the files end-up in /lost-and-found dir. The reason for this is always the same: no journaling system, therefore if system crashes in the middle of writing a file, we have a problem. Same problem exists on vfat, I do not know about NTFS. This could lead to problems, If you have been editing /etc/fstab at the moment of crash, but usually it is just a minor nuisance. During last 6 years, I have managed a small cluster of linux machines at university of Vienna. These machines were never shut down unless we got power problems. In this time, our building was hit by a lightning twice, which caused total electricity loss, and burn-up of some network cards. During last 2 years, there were intensive renovation works in the building, and workers have repeteately cut of power cables (network cables too, including the backbone once). All-in-all, a rather hard working enviroment, and in all this time I actually saw that few files were lost only once - did rpm -Va, and reinstalled the package. :~We sometimes lose power here with electrical storms. :~ :~What situation does it have to be for it not to come back? Good question. Maybe he thought "does not automatically come back again, which is something you will see every time fsck finds a problem which COULD lead to loss of some data, and refuses to work non-interactively. Btw: with onset of new yournaling filesystems (ReiserFS, ext3), this will soon be a non-issue anyway. :~ As much as I dislike Windows, I can always count on Windows :~ coming back from this kind of situation. It will complain, run :~ scandisk, and come back up. You might have some application :~ files corrupted, but at least the OS will run. -- - Dr. Denis Havlikhttp://www.ap.univie.ac.at/users/havlik Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quality Assurance (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ---oOO--(_)--OOo-
Re: [expert] future distro ideas
On Mon, May 29, 2000 at 02:11:13PM +0200, Denis HAVLIK wrote: - :~I am not sure what you are referring to here. - :~We had a power outage and I was all worried because - :~everyone talks about what happens when you don't - :~cleanly boot out of Linux, but it came back up fine. - :~It forces a 'scan' of the Linux partitions, but they come - :~back 'passed'. - - Once in a while it can happen that you have to run fsck manually and - answer "yes" to all its question. It can happen that you loose a file or - two in a proces - parts of the files end-up in /lost-and-found dir. - - The reason for this is always the same: no journaling system, therefore if - system crashes in the middle of writing a file, we have a problem. Same - problem exists on vfat, I do not know about NTFS. For the record, NTFS is a journaling file system, and has been since day one. W2K has W32 level access to portions of it. - - This could lead to problems, If you have been editing /etc/fstab at the - moment of crash, but usually it is just a minor nuisance. During last 6 - years, I have managed a small cluster of linux machines at university - of Vienna. These machines were never shut down unless we got power - problems. In this time, our building was hit by a lightning twice, which - caused total electricity loss, and burn-up of some network cards. During - last 2 years, there were intensive renovation works in the building, and - workers have repeteately cut of power cables (network cables too, - including the backbone once). All-in-all, a rather hard working - enviroment, and in all this time I actually saw that few files were lost - only once - did rpm -Va, and reinstalled the package. - - - :~We sometimes lose power here with electrical storms. - :~ - :~What situation does it have to be for it not to come back? - - Good question. Maybe he thought "does not automatically come back again, - which is something you will see every time fsck finds a problem which - COULD lead to loss of some data, and refuses to work non-interactively. - - Btw: with onset of new yournaling filesystems (ReiserFS, ext3), this - will soon be a non-issue anyway. SGI and IBM have also released journaling file systems, and they are being adapted to Linux. Hmmm, NT comes with two file systems, one of which is journaling. Linux comes with how many, of which four are or will be journaling? "No worries." -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley
Re: [expert] future distro ideas
Thanks Denis I appreciate you writing back. Talking about what has happened to your network definitely answers some questions. (Also some others have written and seen the same thing) I guess it is not as widespread as the sampling from the list indicated. Bambi Denis HAVLIK wrote: :~I am not sure what you are referring to here. :~We had a power outage and I was all worried because :~everyone talks about what happens when you don't :~cleanly boot out of Linux, but it came back up fine. :~It forces a 'scan' of the Linux partitions, but they come :~back 'passed'. Once in a while it can happen that you have to run fsck manually and answer "yes" to all its question. It can happen that you loose a file or two in a proces - parts of the files end-up in /lost-and-found dir. The reason for this is always the same: no journaling system, therefore if system crashes in the middle of writing a file, we have a problem. Same problem exists on vfat, I do not know about NTFS. This could lead to problems, If you have been editing /etc/fstab at the moment of crash, but usually it is just a minor nuisance. During last 6 years, I have managed a small cluster of linux machines at university of Vienna. These machines were never shut down unless we got power problems. In this time, our building was hit by a lightning twice, which caused total electricity loss, and burn-up of some network cards. During last 2 years, there were intensive renovation works in the building, and workers have repeteately cut of power cables (network cables too, including the backbone once). All-in-all, a rather hard working enviroment, and in all this time I actually saw that few files were lost only once - did rpm -Va, and reinstalled the package. :~We sometimes lose power here with electrical storms. :~ :~What situation does it have to be for it not to come back? Good question. Maybe he thought "does not automatically come back again, which is something you will see every time fsck finds a problem which COULD lead to loss of some data, and refuses to work non-interactively. Btw: with onset of new yournaling filesystems (ReiserFS, ext3), this will soon be a non-issue anyway. :~ As much as I dislike Windows, I can always count on Windows :~ coming back from this kind of situation. It will complain, run :~ scandisk, and come back up. You might have some application :~ files corrupted, but at least the OS will run. -- - Dr. Denis Havlikhttp://www.ap.univie.ac.at/users/havlik Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quality Assurance (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ---oOO--(_)--OOo-
Re: [expert] future distro ideas
Hi Charles, Thanks for your input between everyone who graciously responded to my question...I am gaining a much better understanding of why it can happen that you will lose stuff in a power outage, but it doesn't necessarily mean you will. Guess we have been the lucky ones, as well as many others who have seen the same thing. I enjoy learning more and more about Linux everyday. This list is a great learning tool and I try to check the "multitudinous" daily messages every day most days anyway :) Thanks again, Bambi Charles Curley wrote: On Mon, May 29, 2000 at 02:11:13PM +0200, Denis HAVLIK wrote: - :~I am not sure what you are referring to here. - :~We had a power outage and I was all worried because - :~everyone talks about what happens when you don't - :~cleanly boot out of Linux, but it came back up fine. - :~It forces a 'scan' of the Linux partitions, but they come - :~back 'passed'. - - Once in a while it can happen that you have to run fsck manually and - answer "yes" to all its question. It can happen that you loose a file or - two in a proces - parts of the files end-up in /lost-and-found dir. - - The reason for this is always the same: no journaling system, therefore if - system crashes in the middle of writing a file, we have a problem. Same - problem exists on vfat, I do not know about NTFS. For the record, NTFS is a journaling file system, and has been since day one. W2K has W32 level access to portions of it. - - This could lead to problems, If you have been editing /etc/fstab at the - moment of crash, but usually it is just a minor nuisance. During last 6 - years, I have managed a small cluster of linux machines at university - of Vienna. These machines were never shut down unless we got power - problems. In this time, our building was hit by a lightning twice, which - caused total electricity loss, and burn-up of some network cards. During - last 2 years, there were intensive renovation works in the building, and - workers have repeteately cut of power cables (network cables too, - including the backbone once). All-in-all, a rather hard working - enviroment, and in all this time I actually saw that few files were lost - only once - did rpm -Va, and reinstalled the package. - - - :~We sometimes lose power here with electrical storms. - :~ - :~What situation does it have to be for it not to come back? - - Good question. Maybe he thought "does not automatically come back again, - which is something you will see every time fsck finds a problem which - COULD lead to loss of some data, and refuses to work non-interactively. - - Btw: with onset of new yournaling filesystems (ReiserFS, ext3), this - will soon be a non-issue anyway. SGI and IBM have also released journaling file systems, and they are being adapted to Linux. Hmmm, NT comes with two file systems, one of which is journaling. Linux comes with how many, of which four are or will be journaling? "No worries." -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley
Re: [expert] future distro ideas
On Sat, 27 May 2000 - Anton Graham, you wrote: | Submitted 27-May-00 by Bruce Endries: | | I have on too many occasions seen Linux machines shut off | | improperly and never run again until the OS is re-installed. | | This is like using explosives to solve a rodent problem. You destroy | the old house and build a new one. You lose everything of value that | was in the original. | | I have indeed had problems with an ext2 file system that prevented a | proper boot, but if you are patient you can recover the existing | system without catastrophic data loss. The tools are there, but you | need to know how to use them *before* you need them. | | | I admit, sometimes, it will do it. But sometimes isn't good enough. | | The vast majority of time it will recover just fine. On occasion, | user intervention is required, typically if the disk was being written | to when the power was interrupted. | | | As much as I dislike Windows, I can always count on Windows | | coming back from this kind of situation. It will complain, run | | scandisk, and come back up. You might have some application | | files corrupted, but at least the OS will run. | | Sure-fire way to make Windows unuseable: Try removing the primary | video adapter in a dual head system. Mandrake (via Kudzu) detects | this situation and has you reconfigure X. That is a real show stopper. The only problem I have with kudzu, is that it decides my mouse (actually a track ball) has been removed once in a while. I tell it to keep the configuration, and no problems - just a little irritating, but I expect less than perfect behavior from the newer applications. I am confident that it will be better in future incarnations. | | Also, I *have* seen Windows die completely after an improper shutdown. | Rare to be certain, but it does happen. | | -- | _ | _|_|_ |( ) *Anton Graham |/v\ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] | /( )X | (m_m) GPG ID: 18F78541 | Penguin Powered! -- ___ Ernie ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
RE: [expert] future distro ideas
-Original Message- From: Bruce Endries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 7:45 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [expert] future distro ideas Here's my "two cents worth": As much as I dislike Windows, I can always count on Windows coming back from this kind of situation. It will complain, run scandisk, and come back up. You might have some application files corrupted, but at least the OS will run. Bruce Endries Bruce Endries Consulting (607) 433-2677 I'll throw in my $.01 worth... You've merely been lucky. Windows System files are more readily rendered corrupt, since often they are held open. (I won't go into the details concerning erroneous IDE/SCSI write ops during abnormal outages..) For a true point of comparison though, don't compare Linux to Windows, rather to NT. Try killing power on NT a few times... -JMS
Re: [expert] future distro ideas
| As much as I dislike Windows, I can always count on Windows | coming back from this kind of situation. It will complain, run | scandisk, and come back up. You might have some application | files corrupted, but at least the OS will run. Sure-fire way to make Windows unuseable: Try removing the primary video adapter in a dual head system. Mandrake (via Kudzu) detects this situation and has you reconfigure X. That is a real show stopper. Also, I *have* seen Windows die completely after an improper shutdown. Rare to be certain, but it does happen. hi, here is my 2 Cents- experience : I'm working now for about 15 years with UnixSystems, inluding Linux since 1994. Sometimes I have to do some jobs on Windos-boxes. Especially I have to connect customer-winboxes to an Intranet/Internet. You can believe it or not - in the most cases the winboxes wasn't able to reboot after a really hardware-crash. Maybe, it was a powerfail, any hardware-problem or whatever you want - I NEVER , I repeat here NEVER have seen a situation, that a unix-system/linux-system was unusable after such a so called hardwarecrash. But I have seen a lot of windows boxes, which was not able to read anything after a real hardwarecrash. Another, very important aspect is the following : if you have the situation, that you have to do a reinstall, because somthing was getting wrong, do that with linux and do that with windows. You will get the following situation : after rebooting with the install-CD linux will be able to see an existent linux-filesystem, and you can use that. Trying the same with windows, windows says, there was a old version of windows, but have a lot of troubles to use that. In many cases, we lost some files completely. Not so within linux. If I have a fileserver, and that server crashes as a minimum of 5 times a week, I cannot have a confidence in such a fileserver. In some cases the filesystem does NOT recover completely. In the most cases any hardwareregistration is damaged, and you can install it again. Not so in linux. As Anton says it in the right way - kudzu will detect it and recovers the failure, but in windows you only have a Registration-system, which will be praised as a "PlugnPray-System" but - the detection is ONE job, the ability to recover is another job. And that behavior you can not find in a sufficient extent in a windows-system. For shure, it is possible to blow up windows with a lot of programs, which can do that, but if you have finished all the necessary jobs to reach such a matured system, you have a halve linux. But only a halve. Because windows was not conceived as such an OS. It was blowed up from a single-user-system to multi-tasking-system. Not a multi-user-system. To try such a thing, you get the same as if you try to repair your old car to get a new one-you will never get a new car on this way. Make a soap-bubble and blows in a breath. The soap-bubble will burst some time. That's like windows. What I mean here, is - the concept of windows was not designed for such jobs. Windows have had a totally other structure and was only blowed up. Unix have a long development-history. And linux wents into these steps. There are a lot of developers and ideas around the world. And linux has an open architecture. That's it, why linux is the solution of the future. My personally thought is, windows will get the status of Novell within the next 2 or 3 years. To achieve the status of linux, windows would have to go to an open source-project. Is anybody there, who can believe, that windows will open the doors for all the world ? For shure, it's very important, that the development within and around of linux have to go on. New applications have to brought up to linux. The installation-procedure of some applications have to become much more easier. Especially standard-applications like mysql-apache-php-"connections-to-office-packages". For example the cennection to Staroffice or applix. So the "normal-user" can install such environments in an easy way without running into troubles. To achieving this point of maturity, there is a lot of development necessary. But then we have the acceptance of the most computerusers. Another very important point for developing things to make the life easier, is to install an ISDN or ADSL-connection MUCH MORE easier. In the moment, that is a very horrible job for a standard user, coming from windblows or mac or whatelse. Perhaps it would be a useful idea, if programmers,which are developing such applications, would think of about a simple way with a simple GUI for a simpel-linux-user or a real linux-newbie. Hmmm maybe, that is somthing for mandrake-developers ? Hans Schneidhofer
Re: [expert] future distro ideas
I am not sure what you are referring to here. We had a power outage and I was all worried because everyone talks about what happens when you don't cleanly boot out of Linux, but it came back up fine. It forces a 'scan' of the Linux partitions, but they come back 'passed'. My Jim has had the same experiences. Granted we both have been in Linux for probably a lot shorter time than most of you have been...me a month or two and Jim for almost a yearbut we have not seen this on either Jim's RedHat 6.0 or my Mandrake 7.0 We sometimes lose power here with electrical storms. What situation does it have to be for it not to come back? Bambi "Jose M. Sanchez" wrote: -Original Message- From: Bruce Endries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 7:45 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [expert] future distro ideas Here's my "two cents worth": As much as I dislike Windows, I can always count on Windows coming back from this kind of situation. It will complain, run scandisk, and come back up. You might have some application files corrupted, but at least the OS will run. Bruce Endries Bruce Endries Consulting (607) 433-2677 I'll throw in my $.01 worth... You've merely been lucky. Windows System files are more readily rendered corrupt, since often they are held open. (I won't go into the details concerning erroneous IDE/SCSI write ops during abnormal outages..) For a true point of comparison though, don't compare Linux to Windows, rather to NT. Try killing power on NT a few times... -JMS
RE: [expert] future distro ideas
You're preaching to the converted. Bruce was critical of Linux vis-a-vis scandisk. HIS message was quoted at the top, my response was at the bottom... -JMS -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Fran Parker Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 10:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] future distro ideas I am not sure what you are referring to here. We had a power outage and I was all worried because everyone talks about what happens when you don't cleanly boot out of Linux, but it came back up fine. It forces a 'scan' of the Linux partitions, but they come back 'passed'. My Jim has had the same experiences. Granted we both have been in Linux for probably a lot shorter time than most of you have been...me a month or two and Jim for almost a yearbut we have not seen this on either Jim's RedHat 6.0 or my Mandrake 7.0 We sometimes lose power here with electrical storms. What situation does it have to be for it not to come back? Bambi "Jose M. Sanchez" wrote: -Original Message- From: Bruce Endries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 7:45 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [expert] future distro ideas Here's my "two cents worth": As much as I dislike Windows, I can always count on Windows coming back from this kind of situation. It will complain, run scandisk, and come back up. You might have some application files corrupted, but at least the OS will run. Bruce Endries Bruce Endries Consulting (607) 433-2677 I'll throw in my $.01 worth... You've merely been lucky. Windows System files are more readily rendered corrupt, since often they are held open. (I won't go into the details concerning erroneous IDE/SCSI write ops during abnormal outages..) For a true point of comparison though, don't compare Linux to Windows, rather to NT. Try killing power on NT a few times... -JMS
[expert] future distro ideas
Here's my "two cents worth": One of the main reasons I can't really recommend Linux to my customers as a solution is because of Linux's inability to gracefully recover from not being shut down properly. I would like to see someone set up a distribution that, when shut off without the "shutdown" command (as in a power failure, or user stupidity), will recover reasonably. I have on too many occasions seen Linux machines shut off improperly and never run again until the OS is re-installed. I admit, sometimes, it will do it. But sometimes isn't good enough. As much as I dislike Windows, I can always count on Windows coming back from this kind of situation. It will complain, run scandisk, and come back up. You might have some application files corrupted, but at least the OS will run. You can put a zillion features into it, with the greatest installers, but, in my opinion, you won't be viable until this hurdle is jumped. I really don't know enough about the inner workings of the OS to know why it's like this, but there must be some way to fix it. Perhaps a journaling file system? I really don't know the answer, but somebody must. Bruce Endries Bruce Endries Consulting (607) 433-2677
Re: [expert] future distro ideas
A good journaling filesystem, like ReiserFS or some of the others that are being ported to Linux (IBM's JFS, SGI XFS, etc) will solve most of these problems. ReiserFS looks like it is ready for production use, but the others aren't quit there yet. I've used JFS on IBM's RS-6000 systems and it works quite well. When it is used in conjunction with virtual filesystems, you can actually move an entire filesystem from one machine to another and it is transparent to the user. There are similar VFS projects for Linux that look like they will be ready for serious use sometime within the next year. Many of these kinds of tools have been available on commercial versions of Unix for quite a while. Once they are available under Linux, many more businesses will consider using Linux for mission-critical applications. Jeff p.s. I'm trying to install ReiserFS on a new Mandrake 7.0 system this weekend. After I'm done, I'll let you know if I still hold the same "ready for production use" opinion. At 07:45 AM 5/27/00 -0400, you wrote: Here's my "two cents worth": One of the main reasons I can't really recommend Linux to my customers as a solution is because of Linux's inability to gracefully recover from not being shut down properly. I would like to see someone set up a distribution that, when shut off without the "shutdown" command (as in a power failure, or user stupidity), will recover reasonably. I have on too many occasions seen Linux machines shut off improperly and never run again until the OS is re-installed. I admit, sometimes, it will do it. But sometimes isn't good enough. As much as I dislike Windows, I can always count on Windows coming back from this kind of situation. It will complain, run scandisk, and come back up. You might have some application files corrupted, but at least the OS will run. You can put a zillion features into it, with the greatest installers, but, in my opinion, you won't be viable until this hurdle is jumped. I really don't know enough about the inner workings of the OS to know why it's like this, but there must be some way to fix it. Perhaps a journaling file system? I really don't know the answer, but somebody must. Bruce Endries Bruce Endries Consulting (607) 433-2677
Re: [expert] future distro ideas
ReiserFS is fully supported in 7.1, though we still default to ext2. If you need/want reiserFS, just change the filesystem type during install, that is all. ReiserFS is supposedly performing very well, although it is still tagged as "beta". Usual disclaimers: if ReiserFS sets your house on fire or runs away with your wife - well, it is GPL licence so you can only hate us. .-) cu Denis :~A good journaling filesystem, like ReiserFS or some of the others that are :~being ported to Linux (IBM's JFS, SGI XFS, etc) will solve most of these :~problems. -- - Dr. Denis Havlikhttp://www.ap.univie.ac.at/users/havlik Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quality Assurance (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ---oOO--(_)--OOo-
Re: [expert] future distro ideas
Submitted 27-May-00 by Jeff Groves: | p.s. I'm trying to install ReiserFS on a new Mandrake 7.0 system this | weekend. After I'm done, I'll let you know if I still hold the same "ready | for production use" opinion. I've been running ReiserFS on my 7.1b box for almost a month and have been unable to trash it, including with deliberate hard resets in the middle of multiple ``make'' commands. -- _ _|_|_ ( ) *Anton Graham /v\ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] /( )X (m_m) GPG ID: 18F78541 Penguin Powered!
Re: [expert] future distro ideas
Submitted 27-May-00 by Bruce Endries: | I have on too many occasions seen Linux machines shut off | improperly and never run again until the OS is re-installed. This is like using explosives to solve a rodent problem. You destroy the old house and build a new one. You lose everything of value that was in the original. I have indeed had problems with an ext2 file system that prevented a proper boot, but if you are patient you can recover the existing system without catastrophic data loss. The tools are there, but you need to know how to use them *before* you need them. | I admit, sometimes, it will do it. But sometimes isn't good enough. The vast majority of time it will recover just fine. On occasion, user intervention is required, typically if the disk was being written to when the power was interrupted. | As much as I dislike Windows, I can always count on Windows | coming back from this kind of situation. It will complain, run | scandisk, and come back up. You might have some application | files corrupted, but at least the OS will run. Sure-fire way to make Windows unuseable: Try removing the primary video adapter in a dual head system. Mandrake (via Kudzu) detects this situation and has you reconfigure X. That is a real show stopper. Also, I *have* seen Windows die completely after an improper shutdown. Rare to be certain, but it does happen. -- _ _|_|_ ( ) *Anton Graham /v\ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] /( )X (m_m) GPG ID: 18F78541 Penguin Powered!
