Dual page numbering

[Art Campbell]

To get back to the original topic

It sounds to me as if the solution would be a FrameScript that would
do the absolute page counting outside the document and insert a text
value based on the script's page count. And it would need a loop to
remove existing numbers when you ran it to update. Any of you
Scripters care to comment on whether that would work or not?

The other tier, Chapter-PG numbering, is easy to set up inside FM.

Art

Art Campbell
   art.campbell at gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358



On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Combs, Richard
 wrote:
> John Sgammato wrote:
>
>> The bottom line: the customer asked for absolute page numbers, not an
>> appraisal of his cognitive development ?;-)
>
> Well, that settles it, doesn't it? :-)
>
> I didn't realize this was your customer. I assumed that this was a
> request from a peer or another dept.
>
> 
>
> Richard
>
>
> Richard G. Combs
> Senior Technical Writer
> Polycom, Inc.
> richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
> 303-223-5111
> --
> rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
> 303-777-0436
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com.
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Dual page numbering

[Combs, Richard]

John Sgammato wrote:

> The bottom line: the customer asked for absolute page numbers, not an
> appraisal of his cognitive development  ;-)

Well, that settles it, doesn't it? :-) 

I didn't realize this was your customer. I assumed that this was a
request from a peer or another dept. 

 

Richard


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

Re: Dual page numbering

[Art Campbell]

To get back to the original topic

It sounds to me as if the solution would be a FrameScript that would
do the absolute page counting outside the document and insert a text
value based on the script's page count. And it would need a loop to
remove existing numbers when you ran it to update. Any of you
Scripters care to comment on whether that would work or not?

The other tier, Chapter-PG numbering, is easy to set up inside FM.

Art

Art Campbell
   art.campb...@gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358



On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Combs, Richard
 wrote:
> John Sgammato wrote:
>
>> The bottom line: the customer asked for absolute page numbers, not an
>> appraisal of his cognitive development  ;-)
>
> Well, that settles it, doesn't it? :-)
>
> I didn't realize this was your customer. I assumed that this was a
> request from a peer or another dept.
>
> 
>
> Richard
>
>
> Richard G. Combs
> Senior Technical Writer
> Polycom, Inc.
> richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
> 303-223-5111
> --
> rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
> 303-777-0436
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campb...@gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
> or visit 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>
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> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
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RE: Dual page numbering

[Combs, Richard]

John Sgammato wrote:

> The bottom line: the customer asked for absolute page numbers, not an
> appraisal of his cognitive development  ;-)

Well, that settles it, doesn't it? :-) 

I didn't realize this was your customer. I assumed that this was a
request from a peer or another dept. 

 

Richard


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--





 

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Dual page numbering

[John Sgammato]

Even those who are not cognitively impaired can get frustrated when a
unit has come out of order and it replaced in the wrong spot. In order
to keep the flexibility of removing or re-ordering units, there is no
ToC in the deliverable. I could give one to each teacher for the purpose
of getting things back in order, but absolute page numbers would be
quicker and easier. 
The bottom line: the customer asked for absolute page numbers, not an
appraisal of his cognitive development  ;-)


-Original Message-
From: Combs, Richard [mailto:richard.co...@polycom.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:04 PM
To: John Sgammato
Cc: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Dual page numbering

John Sgammato wrote:

> I already use the chapter-page numbering. The existing pages list the 
> unit name followed by a hyphen and the page number. So there are not
24
> naked page 3s, there's a Intro-3 and a Something-3 and a Something 
> Else-3.

But if you already have a Something-3 and a Something Else-3, then the
trainers shouldn't _be_ "having trouble getting on the same page with 24
different page 3s..." -- unless they're cognitively impaired. 

You're being asked to kludge up a solution to a problem that doesn't
exist. I'd politely decline. But that's just me... 

Richard 


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

Dual page numbering

[John Sgammato]

I already use the chapter-page numbering. The existing pages list the
unit name followed by a hyphen and the page number. So there are not 24
naked page 3s, there's a Intro-3 and a Something-3 and a Something
Else-3. 
The chapter names (vs numbers) make it possible for trainers to re-order
or abandon units as needed without having chapter numbers end up out of
order. 
The absolute page numbers would naturally end up out of order, but they
are gray and out of the way,intended to be used by me and the trainers
between classes while the more obvious chapter name-page numbers
intended to be used in class are much more visible at the bottom-center
of the page.  

Another solution would be to include the absolute page numbers only on a
"teacher's edition" but I don't want to get into that discussion just
yet.

john

-Original Message-
From: Combs, Richard [mailto:richard.co...@polycom.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:47 PM
To: John Sgammato; Milan Davidovic
Cc: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Dual page numbering

John Sgammato wrote: 

> He did. He uses the chapter numbering within a unit to reassure the
user
> that none of the parts is really big and scary. He feels that if he 
> takes a break on page 62, students may be dismayed and the endless 
> boring class. But if no unit has more than 16 to 20 pages, then he 
> expects a sense of moving right along, making progress with an easy 
> subject. Most classroom references would use the chapter-oriented 
> numbering.
> OTOH the absolute numbering helps us work together and helps him work 
> with other trainers when they need to reference a specific page. They 
> were having trouble getting on the same page with 24 different page 
> 3s...

But there shouldn't be 24 different page 3s. If you're going to restart
numbering for each chapter, you need to use what's called folio (or
chapter-page) numbering: 

1-1, 1-2, 1-3, ..., 2-1, 2-2, ..., 3-1, 3-2, ...

It should be clear even to a trainer (that's a joke) that page 3-17 and
page 6-17 aren't the same page. In Acrobat, you can set the numbering to
match -- or save a lot of time by getting Rick Quatro's PageLabeler
plugin, which transfers FM's page numbering to the PDF. 

Setting up folio numbering in FM is a bit of work. You really should
create a new set of templates (not from scratch, of course, but starting
from your existing templates) for folio-numbered books. 

-- On the master pages, you have to insert the Chapter Number variable
and a dash or hyphen (I use an N dash) in front of the page numbers. 

-- In the generated list specs (ref pages), you have to insert the
<$chapnum> building block and dash/hyphen in front of the page numbers. 

-- All your cross-reference formats that include a page number need to
be modified to include the <$chapnum> and dash/hyphen (non-breaking). 

-- If you want to create xrefs to front-matter pages (like a
preface/intro) that use roman page numbering (i, ii, iii, ...), you'll
need special xref formats without the <$chapnum> just for those. 

-- If you want to index front-matter, you'll need a dedicated marker --
say, IndexFront. In the ref page index spec (IX flow), you'll need an
IndexIX pgf that includes the <$chapnum> and an IndexFrontIX pgf that
has only <$pagenum>.

-- You'll also need front-matter-specific versions of headings you want
included in the TOC. For instance, you might need a Head1Intro pgf
that's identical to your Head1 pgf. But in the ref page TOC spec,
Head1TOC includes the <$chapnum> and Head1IntroTOC doesn't. 

-- If you have table and/or figure captions, you'll have to decide
whether you want to restart their numbering with each chapter, too, and
if so, modify their autonumbering to include <$chapnum> also. And modify
the ref page specs for the LOF and LOT accordingly.  

-- For the numbering properties, set Chapter as follows: 

Front-matter files: Chapter # doesn't matter 1st chapter: Chapter # = 1,
Format = Numeric 1st appendix: Chapter # = 1, Format = ALPHABETIC
Subsequent chapters/appendices: Continue Numbering From Previous File
Index: Chapter # = Index, Format = Text

-- For every file except front-matter, set Page to First Page # = 1,
Format = Numeric 

-- For front-matter files, set Page Format = roman, with Page # = 1 for
the title page file and Continue Numbering for any subsequent
front-matter files.

I may be forgetting something, but that should get you started. Or
dissuade you ... ;-)

Richard


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

Dual page numbering

[John Sgammato]

He did. He uses the chapter numbering within a unit to reassure the user
that none of the parts is really big and scary. He feels that if he
takes a break on page 62, students may be dismayed and the endless
boring class. But if no unit has more than 16 to 20 pages, then he
expects a sense of moving right along, making progress with an easy
subject. Most classroom references would use the chapter-oriented
numbering.
OTOH the absolute numbering helps us work together and helps him work
with other trainers when they need to reference a specific page. They
were having trouble getting on the same page with 24 different page
3s...

Thanks everyone for the input. For now I will run with Fred's Acrobat
trick to get this thing to print tomorrow. I will then look into
tweaking master pages for a more long-term solution. I am still not sure
I understand the solutions I have seen; I will delve into them more
tomorrow.

-Original Message-
From: Milan Davidovic [mailto:milan.li...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:07 PM
To: John Sgammato
Cc: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Dual page numbering

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 2:35 PM, John Sgammato 
wrote:
> Our trainer wants to include both chapter-oriented numbering AND 
> absolute page numbering in training materials derived from my manuals.

A bit OT, but did your trainer say why?

--
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com

Dual page numbering

[Milan Davidovic]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 2:35 PM, John Sgammato  
wrote:
> Our trainer wants to include both chapter-oriented numbering AND
> absolute page numbering in training materials derived from my manuals.

A bit OT, but did your trainer say why?

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com

Dual page numbering

[Combs, Richard]

John Sgammato wrote:

> I already use the chapter-page numbering. The existing pages list the
> unit name followed by a hyphen and the page number. So there are not
24
> naked page 3s, there's a Intro-3 and a Something-3 and a Something
> Else-3.

But if you already have a Something-3 and a Something Else-3, then the
trainers shouldn't _be_ "having trouble getting on the same page with 24
different page 3s..." -- unless they're cognitively impaired. 

You're being asked to kludge up a solution to a problem that doesn't
exist. I'd politely decline. But that's just me... 

Richard 


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

Dual page numbering

[Combs, Richard]

John Sgammato wrote: 

> He did. He uses the chapter numbering within a unit to reassure the
user
> that none of the parts is really big and scary. He feels that if he
> takes a break on page 62, students may be dismayed and the endless
> boring class. But if no unit has more than 16 to 20 pages, then he
> expects a sense of moving right along, making progress with an easy
> subject. Most classroom references would use the chapter-oriented
> numbering.
> OTOH the absolute numbering helps us work together and helps him work
> with other trainers when they need to reference a specific page. They
> were having trouble getting on the same page with 24 different page
> 3s...

But there shouldn't be 24 different page 3s. If you're going to restart
numbering for each chapter, you need to use what's called folio (or
chapter-page) numbering: 

1-1, 1-2, 1-3, ..., 2-1, 2-2, ..., 3-1, 3-2, ...

It should be clear even to a trainer (that's a joke) that page 3-17 and
page 6-17 aren't the same page. In Acrobat, you can set the numbering to
match -- or save a lot of time by getting Rick Quatro's PageLabeler
plugin, which transfers FM's page numbering to the PDF. 

Setting up folio numbering in FM is a bit of work. You really should
create a new set of templates (not from scratch, of course, but starting
from your existing templates) for folio-numbered books. 

-- On the master pages, you have to insert the Chapter Number variable
and a dash or hyphen (I use an N dash) in front of the page numbers. 

-- In the generated list specs (ref pages), you have to insert the
<$chapnum> building block and dash/hyphen in front of the page numbers. 

-- All your cross-reference formats that include a page number need to
be modified to include the <$chapnum> and dash/hyphen (non-breaking). 

-- If you want to create xrefs to front-matter pages (like a
preface/intro) that use roman page numbering (i, ii, iii, ...), you'll
need special xref formats without the <$chapnum> just for those. 

-- If you want to index front-matter, you'll need a dedicated marker --
say, IndexFront. In the ref page index spec (IX flow), you'll need an
IndexIX pgf that includes the <$chapnum> and an IndexFrontIX pgf that
has only <$pagenum>.

-- You'll also need front-matter-specific versions of headings you want
included in the TOC. For instance, you might need a Head1Intro pgf
that's identical to your Head1 pgf. But in the ref page TOC spec,
Head1TOC includes the <$chapnum> and Head1IntroTOC doesn't. 

-- If you have table and/or figure captions, you'll have to decide
whether you want to restart their numbering with each chapter, too, and
if so, modify their autonumbering to include <$chapnum> also. And modify
the ref page specs for the LOF and LOT accordingly.  

-- For the numbering properties, set Chapter as follows: 

Front-matter files: Chapter # doesn't matter
1st chapter: Chapter # = 1, Format = Numeric 
1st appendix: Chapter # = 1, Format = ALPHABETIC 
Subsequent chapters/appendices: Continue Numbering From Previous File 
Index: Chapter # = Index, Format = Text

-- For every file except front-matter, set Page to First Page # = 1,
Format = Numeric 

-- For front-matter files, set Page Format = roman, with Page # = 1 for
the title page file and Continue Numbering for any subsequent
front-matter files.

I may be forgetting something, but that should get you started. Or
dissuade you ... ;-)

Richard


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

RE: Dual page numbering

[Matt Sullivan]

I score it this way:

Richard: 1 point each for 3 consistent and logic observations

John: 3 points for snapping us back into reality 

What's the applicable quote here? Something like: 
"The reasonable man adjusts to reality, the unreasonable man demands that
reality adjust to him. 
All progress depends on the unreasonable man."

-Matt

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of John Sgammato
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 3:11 PM
To: Combs, Richard
Cc: fram...@frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Dual page numbering

Even those who are not cognitively impaired can get frustrated when a unit
has come out of order and it replaced in the wrong spot. In order to keep
the flexibility of removing or re-ordering units, there is no ToC in the
deliverable. I could give one to each teacher for the purpose of getting
things back in order, but absolute page numbers would be quicker and easier.

The bottom line: the customer asked for absolute page numbers, not an
appraisal of his cognitive development  ;-)
  

-Original Message-
From: Combs, Richard [mailto:richard.co...@polycom.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:04 PM
To: John Sgammato
Cc: fram...@frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Dual page numbering

John Sgammato wrote:
 
> I already use the chapter-page numbering. The existing pages list the 
> unit name followed by a hyphen and the page number. So there are not
24
> naked page 3s, there's a Intro-3 and a Something-3 and a Something 
> Else-3.

But if you already have a Something-3 and a Something Else-3, then the
trainers shouldn't _be_ "having trouble getting on the same page with 24
different page 3s..." -- unless they're cognitively impaired. 

You're being asked to kludge up a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
I'd politely decline. But that's just me... 

Richard 


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--






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Dual page numbering

[Matt Sullivan]

I score it this way:

Richard: 1 point each for 3 consistent and logic observations

John: 3 points for snapping us back into reality 

What's the applicable quote here? Something like: 
"The reasonable man adjusts to reality, the unreasonable man demands that
reality adjust to him. 
All progress depends on the unreasonable man."

-Matt

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of John Sgammato
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 3:11 PM
To: Combs, Richard
Cc: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Dual page numbering

Even those who are not cognitively impaired can get frustrated when a unit
has come out of order and it replaced in the wrong spot. In order to keep
the flexibility of removing or re-ordering units, there is no ToC in the
deliverable. I could give one to each teacher for the purpose of getting
things back in order, but absolute page numbers would be quicker and easier.

The bottom line: the customer asked for absolute page numbers, not an
appraisal of his cognitive development  ;-)


-Original Message-
From: Combs, Richard [mailto:richard.co...@polycom.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:04 PM
To: John Sgammato
Cc: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Dual page numbering

John Sgammato wrote:

> I already use the chapter-page numbering. The existing pages list the 
> unit name followed by a hyphen and the page number. So there are not
24
> naked page 3s, there's a Intro-3 and a Something-3 and a Something 
> Else-3.

But if you already have a Something-3 and a Something Else-3, then the
trainers shouldn't _be_ "having trouble getting on the same page with 24
different page 3s..." -- unless they're cognitively impaired. 

You're being asked to kludge up a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
I'd politely decline. But that's just me... 

Richard 


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--






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Dual page numbering

[Fred Ridder]

John Sgammato wrote:

> Our trainer wants to include both chapter-oriented numbering AND
> absolute page numbering in training materials derived from my manuals. 
> It looks like in FM8 (unstructured) I can set page numbering to be one
> or the other. 
> Is there a way to have it both ways? Some sort of user variable that I
> can set to restart with each chapter while the page numbering continues
> from previous? Or is it just a limitation of FrameMaker 8 that I can one
> or the other but not both?


If your deliverable is a PDF, you can use Acrobat to add a header or footer 
that includes a page numbering sequence that is independent from the one 
produced by FrameMaker. I'm not sure what versions/editions of Acrobat include 
this feature, but it's there and working in my installation of 9.0 
Professional. I seem to recall that the feature was introduced in 7.0, but 
don't know if it was limited to only Pro (vs. Standard) as some of the other 
"advanced" features were. 

Acrobat 9.0 Professional also has the capability to add "Bates numbering" 
(commonly used for legal documents) to PDF documents, and that looks like it 
should work as another route to the same goal (maybe you need a *third* 
different page numbering scheme, too???).

-Fred Ridder

RE: Dual page numbering

[John Sgammato]

Even those who are not cognitively impaired can get frustrated when a
unit has come out of order and it replaced in the wrong spot. In order
to keep the flexibility of removing or re-ordering units, there is no
ToC in the deliverable. I could give one to each teacher for the purpose
of getting things back in order, but absolute page numbers would be
quicker and easier. 
The bottom line: the customer asked for absolute page numbers, not an
appraisal of his cognitive development  ;-)
  

-Original Message-
From: Combs, Richard [mailto:richard.co...@polycom.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:04 PM
To: John Sgammato
Cc: fram...@frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Dual page numbering

John Sgammato wrote:
 
> I already use the chapter-page numbering. The existing pages list the 
> unit name followed by a hyphen and the page number. So there are not
24
> naked page 3s, there's a Intro-3 and a Something-3 and a Something 
> Else-3.

But if you already have a Something-3 and a Something Else-3, then the
trainers shouldn't _be_ "having trouble getting on the same page with 24
different page 3s..." -- unless they're cognitively impaired. 

You're being asked to kludge up a solution to a problem that doesn't
exist. I'd politely decline. But that's just me... 

Richard 


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--






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RE: Dual page numbering

[Combs, Richard]

John Sgammato wrote:
 
> I already use the chapter-page numbering. The existing pages list the
> unit name followed by a hyphen and the page number. So there are not
24
> naked page 3s, there's a Intro-3 and a Something-3 and a Something
> Else-3.

But if you already have a Something-3 and a Something Else-3, then the
trainers shouldn't _be_ "having trouble getting on the same page with 24
different page 3s..." -- unless they're cognitively impaired. 

You're being asked to kludge up a solution to a problem that doesn't
exist. I'd politely decline. But that's just me... 

Richard 


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--






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RE: Dual page numbering

[John Sgammato]

I already use the chapter-page numbering. The existing pages list the
unit name followed by a hyphen and the page number. So there are not 24
naked page 3s, there's a Intro-3 and a Something-3 and a Something
Else-3. 
The chapter names (vs numbers) make it possible for trainers to re-order
or abandon units as needed without having chapter numbers end up out of
order. 
The absolute page numbers would naturally end up out of order, but they
are gray and out of the way,intended to be used by me and the trainers
between classes while the more obvious chapter name-page numbers
intended to be used in class are much more visible at the bottom-center
of the page.  

Another solution would be to include the absolute page numbers only on a
"teacher's edition" but I don't want to get into that discussion just
yet.

john

-Original Message-
From: Combs, Richard [mailto:richard.co...@polycom.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:47 PM
To: John Sgammato; Milan Davidovic
Cc: fram...@frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Dual page numbering

John Sgammato wrote: 
 
> He did. He uses the chapter numbering within a unit to reassure the
user
> that none of the parts is really big and scary. He feels that if he 
> takes a break on page 62, students may be dismayed and the endless 
> boring class. But if no unit has more than 16 to 20 pages, then he 
> expects a sense of moving right along, making progress with an easy 
> subject. Most classroom references would use the chapter-oriented 
> numbering.
> OTOH the absolute numbering helps us work together and helps him work 
> with other trainers when they need to reference a specific page. They 
> were having trouble getting on the same page with 24 different page 
> 3s...

But there shouldn't be 24 different page 3s. If you're going to restart
numbering for each chapter, you need to use what's called folio (or
chapter-page) numbering: 

1-1, 1-2, 1-3, ..., 2-1, 2-2, ..., 3-1, 3-2, ...

It should be clear even to a trainer (that's a joke) that page 3-17 and
page 6-17 aren't the same page. In Acrobat, you can set the numbering to
match -- or save a lot of time by getting Rick Quatro's PageLabeler
plugin, which transfers FM's page numbering to the PDF. 

Setting up folio numbering in FM is a bit of work. You really should
create a new set of templates (not from scratch, of course, but starting
from your existing templates) for folio-numbered books. 

-- On the master pages, you have to insert the Chapter Number variable
and a dash or hyphen (I use an N dash) in front of the page numbers. 

-- In the generated list specs (ref pages), you have to insert the
<$chapnum> building block and dash/hyphen in front of the page numbers. 

-- All your cross-reference formats that include a page number need to
be modified to include the <$chapnum> and dash/hyphen (non-breaking). 

-- If you want to create xrefs to front-matter pages (like a
preface/intro) that use roman page numbering (i, ii, iii, ...), you'll
need special xref formats without the <$chapnum> just for those. 

-- If you want to index front-matter, you'll need a dedicated marker --
say, IndexFront. In the ref page index spec (IX flow), you'll need an
IndexIX pgf that includes the <$chapnum> and an IndexFrontIX pgf that
has only <$pagenum>.

-- You'll also need front-matter-specific versions of headings you want
included in the TOC. For instance, you might need a Head1Intro pgf
that's identical to your Head1 pgf. But in the ref page TOC spec,
Head1TOC includes the <$chapnum> and Head1IntroTOC doesn't. 

-- If you have table and/or figure captions, you'll have to decide
whether you want to restart their numbering with each chapter, too, and
if so, modify their autonumbering to include <$chapnum> also. And modify
the ref page specs for the LOF and LOT accordingly.  

-- For the numbering properties, set Chapter as follows: 

Front-matter files: Chapter # doesn't matter 1st chapter: Chapter # = 1,
Format = Numeric 1st appendix: Chapter # = 1, Format = ALPHABETIC
Subsequent chapters/appendices: Continue Numbering From Previous File
Index: Chapter # = Index, Format = Text

-- For every file except front-matter, set Page to First Page # = 1,
Format = Numeric 

-- For front-matter files, set Page Format = roman, with Page # = 1 for
the title page file and Continue Numbering for any subsequent
front-matter files.

I may be forgetting something, but that should get you started. Or
dissuade you ... ;-)

Richard


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--






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RE: Dual page numbering

[Combs, Richard]

John Sgammato wrote: 
 
> He did. He uses the chapter numbering within a unit to reassure the
user
> that none of the parts is really big and scary. He feels that if he
> takes a break on page 62, students may be dismayed and the endless
> boring class. But if no unit has more than 16 to 20 pages, then he
> expects a sense of moving right along, making progress with an easy
> subject. Most classroom references would use the chapter-oriented
> numbering.
> OTOH the absolute numbering helps us work together and helps him work
> with other trainers when they need to reference a specific page. They
> were having trouble getting on the same page with 24 different page
> 3s...

But there shouldn't be 24 different page 3s. If you're going to restart
numbering for each chapter, you need to use what's called folio (or
chapter-page) numbering: 

1-1, 1-2, 1-3, ..., 2-1, 2-2, ..., 3-1, 3-2, ...

It should be clear even to a trainer (that's a joke) that page 3-17 and
page 6-17 aren't the same page. In Acrobat, you can set the numbering to
match -- or save a lot of time by getting Rick Quatro's PageLabeler
plugin, which transfers FM's page numbering to the PDF. 

Setting up folio numbering in FM is a bit of work. You really should
create a new set of templates (not from scratch, of course, but starting
from your existing templates) for folio-numbered books. 

-- On the master pages, you have to insert the Chapter Number variable
and a dash or hyphen (I use an N dash) in front of the page numbers. 

-- In the generated list specs (ref pages), you have to insert the
<$chapnum> building block and dash/hyphen in front of the page numbers. 

-- All your cross-reference formats that include a page number need to
be modified to include the <$chapnum> and dash/hyphen (non-breaking). 

-- If you want to create xrefs to front-matter pages (like a
preface/intro) that use roman page numbering (i, ii, iii, ...), you'll
need special xref formats without the <$chapnum> just for those. 

-- If you want to index front-matter, you'll need a dedicated marker --
say, IndexFront. In the ref page index spec (IX flow), you'll need an
IndexIX pgf that includes the <$chapnum> and an IndexFrontIX pgf that
has only <$pagenum>.

-- You'll also need front-matter-specific versions of headings you want
included in the TOC. For instance, you might need a Head1Intro pgf
that's identical to your Head1 pgf. But in the ref page TOC spec,
Head1TOC includes the <$chapnum> and Head1IntroTOC doesn't. 

-- If you have table and/or figure captions, you'll have to decide
whether you want to restart their numbering with each chapter, too, and
if so, modify their autonumbering to include <$chapnum> also. And modify
the ref page specs for the LOF and LOT accordingly.  

-- For the numbering properties, set Chapter as follows: 

Front-matter files: Chapter # doesn't matter
1st chapter: Chapter # = 1, Format = Numeric 
1st appendix: Chapter # = 1, Format = ALPHABETIC 
Subsequent chapters/appendices: Continue Numbering From Previous File 
Index: Chapter # = Index, Format = Text

-- For every file except front-matter, set Page to First Page # = 1,
Format = Numeric 

-- For front-matter files, set Page Format = roman, with Page # = 1 for
the title page file and Continue Numbering for any subsequent
front-matter files.

I may be forgetting something, but that should get you started. Or
dissuade you ... ;-)

Richard


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--






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Dual page numbering

[Art Campbell]

John,

You have two options, plus a few corner case methods.

The easiest would be:

In the master page, either insert a <$chapnum> variable before the
Current Page # (that contains <$curpagenum>) variable, or you can
modify the Current Page # definition to include both:
<$chapnum>-<$curpagenum>.

Then propagate the modified file changes to your other files with
Import Formats.

In the Book file, set the Chapter numbering property to increase in
all but the first file, which you hard wire to 1. The Page numbering
property for each file in the book should probably stay as you have
it, to continue incrementing, assuming that  you're using sequential
pages.

Art

Art Campbell
   art.campbell at gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358



On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 2:35 PM, John Sgammato  
wrote:
> Our trainer wants to include both chapter-oriented numbering AND
> absolute page numbering in training materials derived from my manuals.
> It looks like in FM8 (unstructured) I can set page numbering to be one
> or the other.
> Is there a way to have it both ways? Some sort of user variable that I
> can set to restart with each chapter while the page numbering continues
> from previous? Or is it just a limitation of FrameMaker 8 that I can one
> or the other but not both?
>
> John Sgammato
> Principal Technical Writer
> Imprivata, Inc.
> [v] (781) 674-2441
>
> www.imprivata.com
> Explore the Imprivata OneSign Solutions Site
>  ?- see product demos and learn how
> OneSign has made organizations successful.
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>

Dual page numbering

[John Sgammato]

Our trainer wants to include both chapter-oriented numbering AND
absolute page numbering in training materials derived from my manuals. 
It looks like in FM8 (unstructured) I can set page numbering to be one
or the other. 
Is there a way to have it both ways? Some sort of user variable that I
can set to restart with each chapter while the page numbering continues
from previous? Or is it just a limitation of FrameMaker 8 that I can one
or the other but not both?

John Sgammato
Principal Technical Writer
Imprivata, Inc.
[v] (781) 674-2441

www.imprivata.com
Explore the Imprivata OneSign Solutions Site
  - see product demos and learn how
OneSign has made organizations successful. 

RE: Dual page numbering

[John Sgammato]

He did. He uses the chapter numbering within a unit to reassure the user
that none of the parts is really big and scary. He feels that if he
takes a break on page 62, students may be dismayed and the endless
boring class. But if no unit has more than 16 to 20 pages, then he
expects a sense of moving right along, making progress with an easy
subject. Most classroom references would use the chapter-oriented
numbering.
OTOH the absolute numbering helps us work together and helps him work
with other trainers when they need to reference a specific page. They
were having trouble getting on the same page with 24 different page
3s...

Thanks everyone for the input. For now I will run with Fred's Acrobat
trick to get this thing to print tomorrow. I will then look into
tweaking master pages for a more long-term solution. I am still not sure
I understand the solutions I have seen; I will delve into them more
tomorrow.

-Original Message-
From: Milan Davidovic [mailto:milan.li...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:07 PM
To: John Sgammato
Cc: fram...@frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Dual page numbering

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 2:35 PM, John Sgammato 
wrote:
> Our trainer wants to include both chapter-oriented numbering AND 
> absolute page numbering in training materials derived from my manuals.

A bit OT, but did your trainer say why?

--
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com
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Re: Dual page numbering

[Milan Davidovic]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 2:35 PM, John Sgammato  wrote:
> Our trainer wants to include both chapter-oriented numbering AND
> absolute page numbering in training materials derived from my manuals.

A bit OT, but did your trainer say why?

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com
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RE: Dual page numbering

[Fred Ridder]

John Sgammato wrote:

> Our trainer wants to include both chapter-oriented numbering AND
> absolute page numbering in training materials derived from my manuals. 
> It looks like in FM8 (unstructured) I can set page numbering to be one
> or the other. 
> Is there a way to have it both ways? Some sort of user variable that I
> can set to restart with each chapter while the page numbering continues
> from previous? Or is it just a limitation of FrameMaker 8 that I can one
> or the other but not both?


If your deliverable is a PDF, you can use Acrobat to add a header or footer 
that includes a page numbering sequence that is independent from the one 
produced by FrameMaker. I'm not sure what versions/editions of Acrobat include 
this feature, but it's there and working in my installation of 9.0 
Professional. I seem to recall that the feature was introduced in 7.0, but 
don't know if it was limited to only Pro (vs. Standard) as some of the other 
"advanced" features were. 

Acrobat 9.0 Professional also has the capability to add "Bates numbering" 
(commonly used for legal documents) to PDF documents, and that looks like it 
should work as another route to the same goal (maybe you need a *third* 
different page numbering scheme, too???).

-Fred Ridder

 
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Re: Dual page numbering

[Art Campbell]

John,

You have two options, plus a few corner case methods.

The easiest would be:

In the master page, either insert a <$chapnum> variable before the
Current Page # (that contains <$curpagenum>) variable, or you can
modify the Current Page # definition to include both:
<$chapnum>-<$curpagenum>.

Then propagate the modified file changes to your other files with
Import Formats.

In the Book file, set the Chapter numbering property to increase in
all but the first file, which you hard wire to 1. The Page numbering
property for each file in the book should probably stay as you have
it, to continue incrementing, assuming that  you're using sequential
pages.

Art

Art Campbell
   art.campb...@gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358



On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 2:35 PM, John Sgammato  wrote:
> Our trainer wants to include both chapter-oriented numbering AND
> absolute page numbering in training materials derived from my manuals.
> It looks like in FM8 (unstructured) I can set page numbering to be one
> or the other.
> Is there a way to have it both ways? Some sort of user variable that I
> can set to restart with each chapter while the page numbering continues
> from previous? Or is it just a limitation of FrameMaker 8 that I can one
> or the other but not both?
>
> John Sgammato
> Principal Technical Writer
> Imprivata, Inc.
> [v] (781) 674-2441
>
> www.imprivata.com
> Explore the Imprivata OneSign Solutions Site
>   - see product demos and learn how
> OneSign has made organizations successful.
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campb...@gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
> or visit 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>
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Dual page numbering

[John Sgammato]

Our trainer wants to include both chapter-oriented numbering AND
absolute page numbering in training materials derived from my manuals. 
It looks like in FM8 (unstructured) I can set page numbering to be one
or the other. 
Is there a way to have it both ways? Some sort of user variable that I
can set to restart with each chapter while the page numbering continues
from previous? Or is it just a limitation of FrameMaker 8 that I can one
or the other but not both?

John Sgammato
Principal Technical Writer
Imprivata, Inc.
[v] (781) 674-2441

www.imprivata.com
Explore the Imprivata OneSign Solutions Site
  - see product demos and learn how
OneSign has made organizations successful. 
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