Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-13 Thread Stan Brown


On 2022-04-12 19:57, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
> There might be very good reasons why someone would pause an SX and want
> it to fill-in past instances after un-pausing. Testing, troubleshooting,
> verifying something, trial scenarios, et cetera come to mind off the top
> of my head.

Agreed, and also someone might want to create a new SX with a start date
in the past. When I was changing my 2011-2017 accounting data from dBASE
to GnuCash, I used SX for a number of monthly accruals to reduce the
amount of typing I had to do.

I could also see creating a stream of transactions in the past if I got
an annual bill for some service and realized I'd forgotten to enter the
monthly amortization accruals.

> I agree, the behavior should not be changed, but perhaps the UI could
> be improved if people aren't realizing what is going on.

I concur very strongly on the fist point, and somewhat more mildly on
the second. :-)

-- 
Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-13 Thread John Layman
Note that ticking a box on the 'Scheduled Transactions Since Last Run' panel
will create a tab showing any transactions that fire.  From there, it's a
simple matter to delete any that are extraneous.

-Original Message-
From: gnucash-user 
On Behalf Of Glenn Fowler
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2022 12:53 PM
To: Dale Alspach 
Cc: GnuCash-User 
Subject: Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

I'm glad I saw this post as I have a disabled scheduled transaction that I
was getting ready to renable myself. I guess the solution would be to delete
the recurring and enter a new one.

I would have also expected that enabling would start that day time otherwise
what would a disable button really be used for if it goes back and enters
transactions as if it was never disabled?

On Tue, Apr 12, 2022, 10:55 AM Dale Alspach  wrote:

> I had a scheduled transfer to savings that I disabled for a few months.
> When I re-enabled the scheduled transfer I did not change the start 
> date. I was very surprised to find that when it ran that it entered 
> transactions for all of the months when it was disabled.
> Automatically altering the past seems extremely dangerous. It  seems 
> to me a warning should be given or scheduled transactions should only 
> insert future transactions.
> Dale
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Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-12 Thread Adrien Monteleone
I agree, the behavior should not be changed, but perhaps the UI could be 
improved if people aren't realizing what is going on.


Of course, there is a responsibility for the user to learn the software, 
how it works, and pay attention to things. (such as noticing last run 
and next occurrence dates)


It is also a good idea to be familiar with preference settings. There's 
no reason you *have* to let GnuCash auto-create SXs without telling you. 
You can request a notification, and you can require that each one gets 
approved first. (and of course, you can still edit or delete them at any 
time)


I'd say the feature is working as intended. If you want it to 'resume' 
but not 'catch up' then change the start date.


There might be very good reasons why someone would pause an SX and want 
it to fill-in past instances after un-pausing. Testing, troubleshooting, 
verifying something, trial scenarios, et cetera come to mind off the top 
of my head.


Regards,
Adrien

On 4/12/22 4:06 PM, David Carlson wrote:

When you open the scheduled transaction in the transaction editor, you get
hit in the face with the listing of the last occurred date under the
Occurrences section.  I think that pretty obviously suggests that the next
occurrence will follow the defined sequence from that date unless it is
edited.  Further, in the Scheduled Transactions list there is a column
titled Next Occurrence.  I wonder what date is listed there?

The most one could ask for is minor updates to the UI to make that even
more obvious.


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Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-12 Thread David Carlson
When you open the scheduled transaction in the transaction editor, you get
hit in the face with the listing of the last occurred date under the
Occurrences section.  I think that pretty obviously suggests that the next
occurrence will follow the defined sequence from that date unless it is
edited.  Further, in the Scheduled Transactions list there is a column
titled Next Occurrence.  I wonder what date is listed there?

The most one could ask for is minor updates to the UI to make that even
more obvious.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 3:45 PM Stan Brown 
wrote:

> On 2022-04-12 11:59, Glenn Fowler wrote:
> > However, I do agree with the OP in that you would think the expected
> > behavior would be to pause when disabled, and then when reenabled to not
> go
> > back to prior to that point.
>
> I wouldn't think that. If I re-enable a scheduled transaction, keeping
> the original start date, I would _expect_ it to make up the missed
> transactions.
>
> Just another data point.
>
> --
> Stan Brown
> Tehachapi, CA, USA
> https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-12 Thread Stan Brown
On 2022-04-12 11:59, Glenn Fowler wrote:
> However, I do agree with the OP in that you would think the expected
> behavior would be to pause when disabled, and then when reenabled to not go
> back to prior to that point.

I wouldn't think that. If I re-enable a scheduled transaction, keeping
the original start date, I would _expect_ it to make up the missed
transactions.

Just another data point.

-- 
Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-12 Thread Glenn Fowler
I'm sure most users, accountants, and bookkeepers would agree scheduled
transactions are *future* transactions.

I think that's the issue... developers think as developers instead of
thinking as users or accountants. I remember doing beta for an app years
ago and my wife found a major bug that engineers completely missed because
she saw it from a user point of view.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 4:17 PM Stephen M. Butler <
stephen.m.butle...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 4/12/22 11:59, Glenn Fowler wrote:
> > Thanks Gyle, that saves some steps.
> > However, I do agree with the OP in that you would think the expected
> > behavior would be to pause when disabled, and then when reenabled to not
> go
> > back to prior to that point.
>
> How far back?  How far in the future?  That's why there are dates
> there.  If you want it to start this month, then change the start date.
> If next month then enter that date.  If last month or two months ago
> (because you are late restarting) then that date.
>
> If all you do is remove the disable flag and you leave the dates as they
> were then the application is doing as instructed.
>
> Many times as a developer I've wished for the DWIM hardware instruction
> to be active -- Do What I Mean (and not as I said).
>
> --Steve
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 1:34 PM Gyle McCollam 
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> You don't have to delete and create a new one,  just change the start
> date
> >> in the one you have.
> >>
> >> Sent from Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---- Original message 
> >> From: Glenn Fowler 
> >> Date: 4/12/22 1:03 PM (GMT-05:00)
> >> To: Dale Alspach 
> >> Cc: GnuCash-User 
> >> Subject: Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?
> >>
> >> I'm glad I saw this post as I have a disabled scheduled transaction
> that I
> >> was getting ready to renable myself. I guess the solution would be to
> >> delete the recurring and enter a new one.
> >>
> >> I would have also expected that enabling would start that day time
> >> otherwise what would a disable button really be used for if it goes back
> >> and enters transactions as if it was never disabled?
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 12, 2022, 10:55 AM Dale Alspach 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I had a scheduled transfer to savings that I disabled for a few months.
> >>> When I re-enabled the scheduled transfer I did not change the start
> >> date. I
> >>> was very surprised to find that when it ran that it entered
> transactions
> >>> for all of the months when it was disabled.
> >>> Automatically altering the past seems extremely dangerous. It  seems to
> >> me
> >>> a warning should be given or scheduled transactions should only insert
> >>> future transactions.
> >>> Dale
> >>> ___
> >>> gnucash-user mailing list
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> stephen.m.

Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-12 Thread Stephen M. Butler

On 4/12/22 11:59, Glenn Fowler wrote:

Thanks Gyle, that saves some steps.
However, I do agree with the OP in that you would think the expected
behavior would be to pause when disabled, and then when reenabled to not go
back to prior to that point.


How far back?  How far in the future?  That's why there are dates 
there.  If you want it to start this month, then change the start date.  
If next month then enter that date.  If last month or two months ago 
(because you are late restarting) then that date.


If all you do is remove the disable flag and you leave the dates as they 
were then the application is doing as instructed.


Many times as a developer I've wished for the DWIM hardware instruction 
to be active -- Do What I Mean (and not as I said).


--Steve



On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 1:34 PM Gyle McCollam  wrote:



You don't have to delete and create a new one,  just change the start date
in the one you have.

Sent from Samsung Galaxy smartphone.



 Original message 
From: Glenn Fowler 
Date: 4/12/22 1:03 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Dale Alspach 
Cc: GnuCash-User 
Subject: Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

I'm glad I saw this post as I have a disabled scheduled transaction that I
was getting ready to renable myself. I guess the solution would be to
delete the recurring and enter a new one.

I would have also expected that enabling would start that day time
otherwise what would a disable button really be used for if it goes back
and enters transactions as if it was never disabled?

On Tue, Apr 12, 2022, 10:55 AM Dale Alspach  wrote:


I had a scheduled transfer to savings that I disabled for a few months.
When I re-enabled the scheduled transfer I did not change the start

date. I

was very surprised to find that when it ran that it entered transactions
for all of the months when it was disabled.
Automatically altering the past seems extremely dangerous. It  seems to

me

a warning should be given or scheduled transactions should only insert
future transactions.
Dale
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--
Stephen M Butler, PMP, PSM
stephen.m.butle...@gmail.com
kg...@arrl.net
253-350-0166
---
GnuPG Fingerprint:  8A25 9726 D439 758D D846 E5D4 282A 5477 0385 81D8

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Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-12 Thread Michael or Penny Novack

On 4/12/2022 3:07 PM, Dale Alspach wrote:
Unless one lives in a science fiction world with time travel available 
one does not normally *schedule* something to occur in the past.

:)
If this is kept as a feature then perhaps the name should be changed 
to "automatic transaction creation tool".

Dale


The entry of transactions into a journal/ledger is not "real time:

Some of the organizations for which I kept books would have very few 
transactions for most of the year. Just one or two a month (record  bank 
interest, for example). I didn't enter these as they came in but saved 
up till at least a half dozen or so or perhaps just once before the 
quarterly board meeting so I could do a Treasurer's report. So ALWAYS in 
the past.


You have confused "when you arranged between some party and your bank to 
make an automatic periodic payment" (when these real transactions began 
taking place) and "when you entered this in your books" (by setting up a 
scheduled transaction in gnucash). To use my "low volume org" for 
example, might be one date when arranging with national to draw monthly 
"chapter dues" from the chapter account and these deductions from the 
bank account occur and some later time when set up in the books. ONE of 
the organizations I kept books for only met annually and for maybe 10-11 
months of the year would have close to zero transaction volume. So books 
"done" just once a year.


Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-12 Thread Dale Alspach
Unless one lives in a science fiction world with time travel available one
does not normally *schedule* something to occur in the past.
:)
If this is kept as a feature then perhaps the name should be changed to
"automatic transaction creation tool".
Dale

On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 11:32 AM Michael or Penny Novack <
stepbystepf...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On 4/12/2022 10:55 AM, Dale Alspach wrote:
> > I had a scheduled transfer to savings that I disabled for a few months.
> > When I re-enabled the scheduled transfer I did not change the start
> date. I
> > was very surprised to find that when it ran that it entered transactions
> > for all of the months when it was disabled.
> > Automatically altering the past seems extremely dangerous. It  seems to
> me
> > a warning should be given or scheduled transactions should only insert
> > future transactions.
> > Dale
>
> Computers are like that. They obediently do what you tell them to, not
> what you meant to tell them to do.
>
> I suspect you expected some different behavior. That you expected it to
> "remember" that you had disabled the scheduled transfers AT SOME POINT
> IN TIME and you expected that to be "remembered" when you re-enabled the
> transfers. In other words, you expected the disable to have dates
> associated with it << disable from date X to date Y >>
>
> Look at your options when scheduling transactions to see what you should
> have done to get the behavior "scheduled between date X and date Y and
> then from date Z into the future -- hint: that is TWO "schedules"
>
> About "changing the past" -- aren't MOST of the transactions you enter
> after the fact (at a point in time after the transaction has taken place)
>
> Michael D Novack
>
>
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Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-12 Thread Glenn Fowler
Thanks Gyle, that saves some steps.
However, I do agree with the OP in that you would think the expected
behavior would be to pause when disabled, and then when reenabled to not go
back to prior to that point.


On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 1:34 PM Gyle McCollam  wrote:

>
>
> You don't have to delete and create a new one,  just change the start date
> in the one you have.
>
> Sent from Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
>
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Glenn Fowler 
> Date: 4/12/22 1:03 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: Dale Alspach 
> Cc: GnuCash-User 
> Subject: Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?
>
> I'm glad I saw this post as I have a disabled scheduled transaction that I
> was getting ready to renable myself. I guess the solution would be to
> delete the recurring and enter a new one.
>
> I would have also expected that enabling would start that day time
> otherwise what would a disable button really be used for if it goes back
> and enters transactions as if it was never disabled?
>
> On Tue, Apr 12, 2022, 10:55 AM Dale Alspach  wrote:
>
> > I had a scheduled transfer to savings that I disabled for a few months.
> > When I re-enabled the scheduled transfer I did not change the start
> date. I
> > was very surprised to find that when it ran that it entered transactions
> > for all of the months when it was disabled.
> > Automatically altering the past seems extremely dangerous. It  seems to
> me
> > a warning should be given or scheduled transactions should only insert
> > future transactions.
> > Dale
> > ___
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Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-12 Thread Gyle McCollam



You don't have to delete and create a new one,  just change the start date in 
the one you have.

Sent from Samsung Galaxy smartphone.



 Original message 
From: Glenn Fowler 
Date: 4/12/22 1:03 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Dale Alspach 
Cc: GnuCash-User 
Subject: Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

I'm glad I saw this post as I have a disabled scheduled transaction that I
was getting ready to renable myself. I guess the solution would be to
delete the recurring and enter a new one.

I would have also expected that enabling would start that day time
otherwise what would a disable button really be used for if it goes back
and enters transactions as if it was never disabled?

On Tue, Apr 12, 2022, 10:55 AM Dale Alspach  wrote:

> I had a scheduled transfer to savings that I disabled for a few months.
> When I re-enabled the scheduled transfer I did not change the start date. I
> was very surprised to find that when it ran that it entered transactions
> for all of the months when it was disabled.
> Automatically altering the past seems extremely dangerous. It  seems to me
> a warning should be given or scheduled transactions should only insert
> future transactions.
> Dale
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Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-12 Thread Glenn Fowler
I'm glad I saw this post as I have a disabled scheduled transaction that I
was getting ready to renable myself. I guess the solution would be to
delete the recurring and enter a new one.

I would have also expected that enabling would start that day time
otherwise what would a disable button really be used for if it goes back
and enters transactions as if it was never disabled?

On Tue, Apr 12, 2022, 10:55 AM Dale Alspach  wrote:

> I had a scheduled transfer to savings that I disabled for a few months.
> When I re-enabled the scheduled transfer I did not change the start date. I
> was very surprised to find that when it ran that it entered transactions
> for all of the months when it was disabled.
> Automatically altering the past seems extremely dangerous. It  seems to me
> a warning should be given or scheduled transactions should only insert
> future transactions.
> Dale
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Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-12 Thread Adrien Monteleone
This sounds like a good case of not auto-creating them, but rather 
approving them each time. There are options for this.


Regards,
Adrien

On 4/12/22 9:55 AM, Dale Alspach wrote:

I had a scheduled transfer to savings that I disabled for a few months.
When I re-enabled the scheduled transfer I did not change the start date. I
was very surprised to find that when it ran that it entered transactions
for all of the months when it was disabled.
Automatically altering the past seems extremely dangerous. It  seems to me
a warning should be given or scheduled transactions should only insert
future transactions.


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Re: [GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-12 Thread Michael or Penny Novack

On 4/12/2022 10:55 AM, Dale Alspach wrote:

I had a scheduled transfer to savings that I disabled for a few months.
When I re-enabled the scheduled transfer I did not change the start date. I
was very surprised to find that when it ran that it entered transactions
for all of the months when it was disabled.
Automatically altering the past seems extremely dangerous. It  seems to me
a warning should be given or scheduled transactions should only insert
future transactions.
Dale


Computers are like that. They obediently do what you tell them to, not 
what you meant to tell them to do.


I suspect you expected some different behavior. That you expected it to 
"remember" that you had disabled the scheduled transfers AT SOME POINT 
IN TIME and you expected that to be "remembered" when you re-enabled the 
transfers. In other words, you expected the disable to have dates 
associated with it << disable from date X to date Y >>


Look at your options when scheduling transactions to see what you should 
have done to get the behavior "scheduled between date X and date Y and 
then from date Z into the future -- hint: that is TWO "schedules"


About "changing the past" -- aren't MOST of the transactions you enter 
after the fact (at a point in time after the transaction has taken place)


Michael D Novack


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[GNC] Scheduled transactions feature or bug?

2022-04-12 Thread Dale Alspach
I had a scheduled transfer to savings that I disabled for a few months.
When I re-enabled the scheduled transfer I did not change the start date. I
was very surprised to find that when it ran that it entered transactions
for all of the months when it was disabled.
Automatically altering the past seems extremely dangerous. It  seems to me
a warning should be given or scheduled transactions should only insert
future transactions.
Dale
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