Fwd: [Goanet] Taking a vacation from logic and facts
In my last reply to George below the opening sentence should read, "Again, you are back to an economic philosophy doing all this killing and have reprised the canard about oil." In the original I had inadvertantly said "political phiposophy" instead of "economic philosophy". --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:39:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [Goanet] Taking a vacation from logic and > facts > To: goanet@goanet.org > > --- George Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In theory yes (Marxism-Leninism is an atheistic > > philosophy). However, they were Catholic priests > > who were accused by the Vatican of having > > Marxist philosophies. The Vatican set up this > > oxymoron and it is one of the problems I have with > > their opposition to Liberation Theology. Jose > > repeated the Marxist connection. I think the > burden > > in on the those who accuse the liberation > > theologists of being Marxist to demonstrate how > > Catholic priests can be Marxist at the same time. > I > > > see it is easy to throw around the word Marxist > with > > people one disagrees with - as you have done with > > the Baathists below. > > Mario replies: > George, Marxism-Leninism systematically persecuted > religious people and institutions. So it was > atheist > in more than theory. These Liberation Theology > priests, and I know a couple of them, were not > atheists, but followed all the other aspects of > Marxism, which included extreme socialism and the > support of violent socialist revolutionaries. This > is > what got them into trouble with the Vatican. > > The philosophy of the Catholic Church, even perhaps > Christ himself, is essentially socialist, while > relying on capitalism and free enterprise to provide > the money to help people in need. No one today can > turn water into wine or create loaves and fishes out > of thin air. > > > George writes: > > I did not say Capitalism had a religious > component. > > I wrote about the Church's alignment with > > capitalism. > > Mario replies: > What you said was, "Logically, it could also follow > that a Catholic Capitalist priest is an oxymoron. > After all the Catholic church was around before Adam > Smith and capitalism as we know it. It cannot now > align with capitalism which would mean it was > aligned > with the wrong side prior to then. If it does > align with capitalism now, what about the ills of > capitalism? After all capitalism just killed a > 100,000 people in Iraq. > > Since capitalism is an economic philosophy and does > not address religion, Catholic Capitalist priest, > even > if there were such a thing, would not be an > oxymoron, > simply a priest who believes that capitalism helps > the > most people most of the time. The late Pope > castigated materialism and capitalism, even though > the > economic sweat of people's brow (capitalism if you > like) financially underwrites the grand lifestyle of > the Pope and clergy in Rome. > > Then you got carried away by your own soaring > rhetoric > and said that "capitalism" had killed 100,000 > Iraqis, > which is absurd any way you look at it. > > > George writes: > > Innocent Iraqis are being targeted by Iraqis and > > have been caught in the crossfire of US coalition > > forces too. But Sunni Marxist-Leninist Baathists! > > > Is this comedy? > > Mario writes: > There is a huge difference between innocents being > targeted and killed like fish in a barrel, and > innocents being caught in the crossfire with the > coalition forces often jeopardizing their own lives > in > an attempt to avoid such killing. > > In Iraq the ethnic Sunnis who were Baathists under > Saddam were not religious, but were philosophically > secular Marxists. Saddam only re-discovered > religion > when the coalition was about to topple his regime. > > George writes: > > Saddam Hussein killed about 500,000 of his people, > > perhaps more. Capitalism and its quest for oil > > control has killed 100,000 in this war and about > > 200,000 in the first gulf war, including the > > carpet bombing of retreating Iraqi solders. > > Capitalism is currently losing the death count to > > Saddam. With his imprisonment and impending > > execution, capitalism will catch up. > > Mario replies: > Again, you are back to a political philosophy doing > all this killing and have reprised the canard about > oil. The 200,000 is a bogus figure for Ir
[Goanet] Taking a vacation from logic and facts
--- George Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In theory yes (Marxism-Leninism is an atheistic > philosophy). However, they were Catholic priests > who were accused by the Vatican of having > Marxist philosophies. The Vatican set up this > oxymoron and it is one of the problems I have with > their opposition to Liberation Theology. Jose > repeated the Marxist connection. I think the burden > in on the those who accuse the liberation > theologists of being Marxist to demonstrate how > Catholic priests can be Marxist at the same time. I > see it is easy to throw around the word Marxist with > people one disagrees with - as you have done with > the Baathists below. Mario replies: George, Marxism-Leninism systematically persecuted religious people and institutions. So it was atheist in more than theory. These Liberation Theology priests, and I know a couple of them, were not atheists, but followed all the other aspects of Marxism, which included extreme socialism and the support of violent socialist revolutionaries. This is what got them into trouble with the Vatican. The philosophy of the Catholic Church, even perhaps Christ himself, is essentially socialist, while relying on capitalism and free enterprise to provide the money to help people in need. No one today can turn water into wine or create loaves and fishes out of thin air. > George writes: > I did not say Capitalism had a religious component. > I wrote about the Church's alignment with > capitalism. Mario replies: What you said was, "Logically, it could also follow that a Catholic Capitalist priest is an oxymoron. After all the Catholic church was around before Adam Smith and capitalism as we know it. It cannot now align with capitalism which would mean it was aligned with the wrong side prior to then. If it does align with capitalism now, what about the ills of capitalism? After all capitalism just killed a 100,000 people in Iraq. Since capitalism is an economic philosophy and does not address religion, Catholic Capitalist priest, even if there were such a thing, would not be an oxymoron, simply a priest who believes that capitalism helps the most people most of the time. The late Pope castigated materialism and capitalism, even though the economic sweat of people's brow (capitalism if you like) financially underwrites the grand lifestyle of the Pope and clergy in Rome. Then you got carried away by your own soaring rhetoric and said that "capitalism" had killed 100,000 Iraqis, which is absurd any way you look at it. > George writes: > Innocent Iraqis are being targeted by Iraqis and > have been caught in the crossfire of US coalition > forces too. But Sunni Marxist-Leninist Baathists! > Is this comedy? Mario writes: There is a huge difference between innocents being targeted and killed like fish in a barrel, and innocents being caught in the crossfire with the coalition forces often jeopardizing their own lives in an attempt to avoid such killing. In Iraq the ethnic Sunnis who were Baathists under Saddam were not religious, but were philosophically secular Marxists. Saddam only re-discovered religion when the coalition was about to topple his regime. George writes: > Saddam Hussein killed about 500,000 of his people, > perhaps more. Capitalism and its quest for oil > control has killed 100,000 in this war and about > 200,000 in the first gulf war, including the > carpet bombing of retreating Iraqi solders. > Capitalism is currently losing the death count to > Saddam. With his imprisonment and impending > execution, capitalism will catch up. Mario replies: Again, you are back to a political philosophy doing all this killing and have reprised the canard about oil. The 200,000 is a bogus figure for Iraqis killed in the LIBERATION of Kuwait, as is the 100,000 Iraqis killed by "capitalism" in the LIBERATION of Iraq, most of whom have been killed by those trying to deny them freedom and democracy. I find it ironic that someone sympathetic to Liberation Theorists who were extreme socialists, has a problem with liberations in the middle-east, ostensibly because these were achieved by "capitalism" in a quest for "oil", which is freely available off the coasts of California and Texas and Alaska but for the political opposition from extreme environmentalists. Your "oil conspiracy theory" stands on quicksand because it is forced to deliberately overlook some recent facts, a) that the US, with the Iraqis in full flight in 1991, stopped at the Kuwait border, b) that the US controlled the bulk of middle-east oil in 1991, but left and went home, and c) the US rescued the Muslims in Kosovo from rampant Christians with no oil in sight.
Re: [Goanet]Taking a vacation from logic
--- George Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jose wrote: > > Did it not strike you that A Catholic > Marxist-Leninist Priest would be an epitomy of an > Oxymoron? > George replied illogically: > Logically, it could also follow that a Catholic > Capitalist priest is an oxymoron. After all the > Catholic church was around before Adam Smith and > capitalism as we know it. It cannot now align > with capitalism which would mean it was aligned with > the wrong side prior to then. If it does > align with capitalism now, what about the ills of > capitalism? After all capitalism just killed a > 100,000 people in Iraq. Mario points out: George, you need to cut the crap as well, and not turn both facts and logic on their respective heads. Surely a learned professor like you would know that Marxism-Leninism is an atheistic philosophy, which is why a Catholic Marxist-Leninist Priest would be a genuine oxymoron. The last time I checked, Capitalism was an economic system which does not include a religious component. To blame the LIBERATION by US-led forces of 50 million Afghanis and Iraqis on an economic system is the height of illogic, with all due respect. Furthermore, you seem to not be following the daily news, and so have missed the fact that the innocent Iraqis are being targeted and killed by suicidal Sunni Marxist-Leninist Baathists, in their attempt to deny freedom and democracy to the majority of Iraqis. These are the same Sunni Marxist-Leninist Baathists, led by Saddam Hussein, who had brutalized the majority of Iraqis for over 30 years, news of which also does not seem to have filtered up to your ivory tower.
