Re: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

2017-01-13 Thread Ed Jaffe 

On 1/11/2017 9:17 AM, Kirk Wolf wrote:

Curious: Is there something relative to RACF keyrings or TLS 1.2 in Tomcat8
/ SDK8 that can't be done with Tomcat 7 and z/OS SDK 7?


Tomcat 7 does not properly handle the "safkeyring:///" protocol 
specification even when java.protocol.handler.pkgs environment variable 
is set to com.ibm.crypto.provider.  It sees the text string as a file 
name, not a protocol. This was fixed in Tomcat 8. [We verified it worked 
in Tomcat 8.5.5.]


Once we moved to Tomcat 8, there was a bug (that did not exist in Tomcat 
7) that prevented us from using TLSv1.2. This was fixed in Tomcat 8.5.6.


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Re: Who's using Java 8

2017-01-13 Thread David Crayford 

On 13/01/2017 5:21 PM, Timothy Sipples wrote:

David Crayford asked:

Are CICS customers allowed to run WLP outside of CICS?

I'm not sure, but does it matter? If desired, Liberty can be in a
completely separate, standalone CICS region. As it happens, Liberty within
CICS supports CICS transaction and resource security, and that's quite
special.


Unfortunately it does matter. We can ship an install job and have a web 
server up and running in minutes. If we need to rely

on a CICS sysprog to install a system with WLP it's a POC obstacle.


If it does matter, and if your customers don't already have WAS for z/OS
licenses, then "ask your friendly IBM representative" about standalone
Liberty for z/OS OEM licensing. It at least can't hurt. The term of art is
an "IBM Embedded Solution Agreement" (ESA):

https://www-356.ibm.com/partnerworld/wps/servlet/ContentHandler/pw_com_sol-embedded-solution-agreement


Interesting! Thanks for the link. Is there a cost associated with ESA?


By the way, there are many Liberty z/OS affinities besides the simple one
you describe. Examples include z/OS operator commands, SMF logging (such as
writing SMF records for HTTP requests), the z/OS Optimized Local Adapters,
z/OS RRS transaction management, and WLM support.


All good stuff but most of it we don't need. Operator commands and SMF 
logging are trivial to implement in Java using JZOS when you have

the source code for the server.



Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM z Systems, AP/GCG/MEA
E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com

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Re: Who's using Java 8

2017-01-13 Thread Timothy Sipples 
David Crayford asked:
>Are CICS customers allowed to run WLP outside of CICS?

I'm not sure, but does it matter? If desired, Liberty can be in a
completely separate, standalone CICS region. As it happens, Liberty within
CICS supports CICS transaction and resource security, and that's quite
special.

If it does matter, and if your customers don't already have WAS for z/OS
licenses, then "ask your friendly IBM representative" about standalone
Liberty for z/OS OEM licensing. It at least can't hurt. The term of art is
an "IBM Embedded Solution Agreement" (ESA):

https://www-356.ibm.com/partnerworld/wps/servlet/ContentHandler/pw_com_sol-embedded-solution-agreement

By the way, there are many Liberty z/OS affinities besides the simple one
you describe. Examples include z/OS operator commands, SMF logging (such as
writing SMF records for HTTP requests), the z/OS Optimized Local Adapters,
z/OS RRS transaction management, and WLM support.


Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM z Systems, AP/GCG/MEA
E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com

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Re: Who's using Java 8

2017-01-12 Thread David Crayford 

On 12/01/2017 3:17 PM, Timothy Sipples wrote:

Have you looked at Liberty Profile yet?


Yes. It's attractive but there are licensing issues.


Your customers with CICS TS 5+ for
z/OS or WAS 8.5+ for z/OS licensing already have Liberty Profile licensing,
and some of them probably already use Liberty. If you think one or more of
your target customers won't have any of those products then just ask IBM
about OEM licensing if you haven't already. (It can't hurt to ask, at
least.) There's also a blanket Liberty runtime license (<=2GB heap) that
might be appropriate to your needs, but (again) ask IBM.


Are CICS customers allowed to run WLP outside of CICS?


Liberty Profile is obviously going to have the greatest z/OS affinities
(features, supportability, performance, security, etc.) So if it's there,
or easily obtainable, why not? I'd avoid needless complexity if you can.


Well I would agree on supportability because if we ship a web server 
then we have to support it. The good thing
is that it's open source so we've got the source code to do just that if 
the vendor is too slow to fix problems. Feature wise I can
quite easily put together my own stack using open source Java libraries. 
A quick squiz at the WLP lib directory shows it's pretty much
using the same set of open source libraries. And there's a lot of stuff 
in there I don't need that's just bloat. Our server serves a REST API

and a single page application so there's not need for JSPs etc.

Security is interesting. Kirk shared dovetails Tomcat SAF realm code 
which was much appreciated.  Using that as a base it's trivial to write 
a Jetty login module that uses SAF authentication.
It shouldn't be too difficult to implement thread level security using 
the Java SAF packages although I'm not sure if I want to do that.




Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM z Systems, AP/GCG/MEA
E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com

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Re: Who's using Java 8

2017-01-11 Thread Timothy Sipples 
Have you looked at Liberty Profile yet? Your customers with CICS TS 5+ for
z/OS or WAS 8.5+ for z/OS licensing already have Liberty Profile licensing,
and some of them probably already use Liberty. If you think one or more of
your target customers won't have any of those products then just ask IBM
about OEM licensing if you haven't already. (It can't hurt to ask, at
least.) There's also a blanket Liberty runtime license (<=2GB heap) that
might be appropriate to your needs, but (again) ask IBM.

Liberty Profile is obviously going to have the greatest z/OS affinities
(features, supportability, performance, security, etc.) So if it's there,
or easily obtainable, why not? I'd avoid needless complexity if you can.


Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM z Systems, AP/GCG/MEA
E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com

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Re: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

2017-01-11 Thread David Crayford 

On 12/01/2017 1:17 AM, Kirk Wolf wrote:

Jetty has always been nice in terms of how you can customize and embed it.


That's right. Jetty has a pluggable architecture which makes it perfect 
for embedding. You can also strip it back to the bare bones. Don't want
servlet sessions? Strip out the module. Tomcat is pretty lightweight but 
Jetty is super skinny. You can embed Tomcat too but it's nowhere near
as clean as Jetty. The Jetty mantra is that you put the web server into 
your application. That resonates with me.



whereas Tomcat is more recognized as the de-facto reference open source Servlet 
container for web
app developers.


That's because Tomcat was the first servlet container. In recent years 
Jetty has pioneered several technologies that have made it into the
servlet specification. Asynchronous servlets the most important. There's 
nothing wrong with Tomcat, but Jetty seems to me to have
a better architecture. It also has some nice integrations. The maven 
plugin allows to you run a web app without assembling a WAR! Fantastic for

development.


Prior to IBM's acquisition of JZOS, we used to include sample JCL with JZOS
for starting both Tomcat and Jetty using the JZOS batch launcher.
Here's a post in our Community forum from 2005 that mentions support for
this with IBM Java SDK 1.3!
http://community.dovetail.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1=122

Curious: Is there something relative to RACF keyrings or TLS 1.2 in Tomcat8
/ SDK8 that can't be done with Tomcat 7 and z/OS SDK 7?
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/os/zos/tools/java/products/j5security.html

I suppose that some of the JCE/JSSE interfaces are cleaner in Java8 ?
http://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/technotes/guides/security/enhancements-8.html

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http://dovetail.com


On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Ed Jaffe 
wrote:


On 12/21/2016 7:18 AM, David Crayford wrote:


We're currently developing a product with a web UI that uses a Java
application server running on z/OS, either Tomcat or Jetty.


We use Tomcat 8.5.6 on top of Java 8, which gives us RACF keyring and TLS
1.2 support.

Is Jetty a good alternative to Tomcat for ISVs?

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Phoenix Software International, Inc
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/


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Re: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

2017-01-11 Thread Kirk Wolf 
Hi Ed,

Jetty has always been nice in terms of how you can customize and embed it.
  That's its niche (with system integrators), whereas Tomcat is more
recognized as the de-facto reference open source Servlet container for web
app developers.

Prior to IBM's acquisition of JZOS, we used to include sample JCL with JZOS
for starting both Tomcat and Jetty using the JZOS batch launcher.
Here's a post in our Community forum from 2005 that mentions support for
this with IBM Java SDK 1.3!
http://community.dovetail.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1=122

Curious: Is there something relative to RACF keyrings or TLS 1.2 in Tomcat8
/ SDK8 that can't be done with Tomcat 7 and z/OS SDK 7?
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/os/zos/tools/java/products/j5security.html

I suppose that some of the JCE/JSSE interfaces are cleaner in Java8 ?
http://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/technotes/guides/security/enhancements-8.html

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http://dovetail.com


On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Ed Jaffe 
wrote:

> On 12/21/2016 7:18 AM, David Crayford wrote:
>
>> We're currently developing a product with a web UI that uses a Java
>> application server running on z/OS, either Tomcat or Jetty.
>>
>
> We use Tomcat 8.5.6 on top of Java 8, which gives us RACF keyring and TLS
> 1.2 support.
>
> Is Jetty a good alternative to Tomcat for ISVs?
>
> --
> Edward E Jaffe
> Phoenix Software International, Inc
> 831 Parkview Drive North
> El Segundo, CA 90245
> http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>

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Re: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

2017-01-11 Thread Ed Jaffe 

On 12/21/2016 7:18 AM, David Crayford wrote:
We're currently developing a product with a web UI that uses a Java 
application server running on z/OS, either Tomcat or Jetty.


We use Tomcat 8.5.6 on top of Java 8, which gives us RACF keyring and 
TLS 1.2 support.


Is Jetty a good alternative to Tomcat for ISVs?

--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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Re: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

2017-01-10 Thread David Crayford 

Kirk,

We currently use your Tomcat 7 port for dev but we're going to move to 
Jetty for technical reasons.


Java 8 gives us better options WRT libraries. We can ditch Joda for the 
JRE datatime package and use modern techniques like lamdas. Not to 
mention the other reasons

others have posted to my survey.

Of course, we will have to implement our own login module and SAF 
support but Jetty has good support for that.


One of the features I particularly liked about your Tomcat port was the 
zfile URL protocol handler. We will have to write one if we decide to 
use PDS data sets for config files.



David,

FYI, we recently updated our free z/OS port / packaging / enhancements to
Apache Tomcat to include Tomcat 8, which requires Java 7.

https://dovetail.com/products/tomcat.html


Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http://dovetail.com

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:18 AM, David Crayford  wrote:


We're currently developing a product with a web UI that uses a Java
application server running on z/OS, either Tomcat or Jetty.

We decided to use Java 7 because most sites probably have that installed
already and having a dependency on Java 8 might be POC obstacle for some
sites. But Java 8 has a lot of benefits.

I'm wondering how common Java 8 is at your site?

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Re: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

2017-01-09 Thread Kirk Wolf 
David,

FYI, we recently updated our free z/OS port / packaging / enhancements to
Apache Tomcat to include Tomcat 8, which requires Java 7.

https://dovetail.com/products/tomcat.html


Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http://dovetail.com

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:18 AM, David Crayford  wrote:

> We're currently developing a product with a web UI that uses a Java
> application server running on z/OS, either Tomcat or Jetty.
>
> We decided to use Java 7 because most sites probably have that installed
> already and having a dependency on Java 8 might be POC obstacle for some
> sites. But Java 8 has a lot of benefits.
>
> I'm wondering how common Java 8 is at your site?
>
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Re: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

2016-12-21 Thread Pommier, Rex 
Going in next month along with z/OS 2.2.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of David Crayford
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2016 9:18 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

We're currently developing a product with a web UI that uses a Java application 
server running on z/OS, either Tomcat or Jetty.

We decided to use Java 7 because most sites probably have that installed 
already and having a dependency on Java 8 might be POC obstacle for some sites. 
But Java 8 has a lot of benefits.

I'm wondering how common Java 8 is at your site?

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Re: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

2016-12-21 Thread Nims,Alva John (Al) 
I second Kees statement, in my prior job we seem to be constantly installing 
patches or making sure to go to the latest release of JAVA to make our security 
team happy!

Al Nims
Systems Admin/Programmer 3
UFIT
University of Florida
(352) 273-1298

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Vernooij, Kees (ITOPT1) - KLM
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2016 10:31 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

Java 8 (highest version) is more or less pushed here because of security leaks 
in lower versions. I am happy to be able to run the version required by 
Omegamon Tivoli, but not everybody will be that lucky.

You'd better go for the highest version, and be prepared to keep up with coming 
versions, or not use Java at all.

Kees.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of David Crayford
Sent: 21 December, 2016 16:18
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

We're currently developing a product with a web UI that uses a Java application 
server running on z/OS, either Tomcat or Jetty.

We decided to use Java 7 because most sites probably have that installed 
already and having a dependency on Java 8 might be POC obstacle for some sites. 
But Java 8 has a lot of benefits.

I'm wondering how common Java 8 is at your site?

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Re: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

2016-12-21 Thread Vernooij, Kees (ITOPT1) - KLM 
Java 8 (highest version) is more or less pushed here because of security leaks 
in lower versions. I am happy to be able to run the version required by 
Omegamon Tivoli, but not everybody will be that lucky.

You'd better go for the highest version, and be prepared to keep up with coming 
versions, or not use Java at all.

Kees.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of David Crayford
Sent: 21 December, 2016 16:18
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

We're currently developing a product with a web UI that uses a Java 
application server running on z/OS, either Tomcat or Jetty.

We decided to use Java 7 because most sites probably have that installed 
already and having a dependency on Java 8 might be POC obstacle for some 
sites. But Java 8 has a lot of benefits.

I'm wondering how common Java 8 is at your site?

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Re: [SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

2016-12-21 Thread Allan Staller 
Just about to order it


I'm wondering how common Java 8 is at your site?



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[SURVEY] Who's using Java 8

2016-12-21 Thread David Crayford 
We're currently developing a product with a web UI that uses a Java 
application server running on z/OS, either Tomcat or Jetty.


We decided to use Java 7 because most sites probably have that installed 
already and having a dependency on Java 8 might be POC obstacle for some 
sites. But Java 8 has a lot of benefits.


I'm wondering how common Java 8 is at your site?

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