Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
> TSIGARIDAS PANAGIOTIS wrote: > > I believe, I found part of the following text in WAP Forum's WEB-pages. > However, I think the answer -from business and technology point of view- > is simple; > > Is WAP mobile Internet ? Yes and NO > > WAP is using existing Internet standards. The WAP architecture was > designed to enable standard Internet servers to provide services to > wireless devices. In other words - a gateway? If so, then it is a gateway to non-internet devices. They are not just disconnected devices. Many people have laptops that are connected then disconnected from an ISP. The mobile phones use a different protocol suite to perform their operations. I am not saying that is bad. Just that it seems to me to they are saying that they are providing a gateway to the internet for non-internet devices. Otherwise is all they would need is a bridge or router. > In addition, when communicating with wireless devices, > WAP uses many Internet standards such as XML, UDP and IP. The WAP > wireless protocols are based on Internet standards such as HTTP and TLS > but have been optimised for the unique constraints of the wireless > environment. And much email is still sent in ASCII (IEEE I think), that does mean that all internet email systems are IEEE devices. > Internet standards such as HTML, HTTP, TLS and TCP are inefficient over > mobile networks, requiring: > ... Orthogonal to the issue here - "is it the internet"?
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Keith Moore wrote: > > > Here in Japan we have 8 million non-WAP mobile internet users, > > uh, no. if you don't have IP to the phone, it's not mobile Internet. > calling it Internet is just deceptive advertising. I agree. I have cell phone with an IP address. When it is powered on I can ping it from any internet system. I can browse the internet with the help of a internet <-> WAP gateway. The two seem separate to me. -Doug
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Joe; > SMTP in the Internet is, by definition, over IP. STD1 defined only one > required reliable ordered data stream protocol - TCP. What is your point? Are you saying that, in the Internet, there is some application/transport protocols not over IP but SMTP is exclusively over IP? > > > Multicast _redefines_ IP (or portions of the address space thereof); it > > > could be argued that a service provider sells 'Internet' without selling > > > multicast IP. > > > > See STD1 for a list of "required" protocols. > > Multicasting is RFC1112, one of the 'required' protocols. In RFC 2400, the last STD1 which included information on requirement levels, it is a "recommended", not "required" protocol. I wonder why the information is missing in the recent STD1. Masataka Ohta
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Masataka Ohta wrote: > > Joe; > > > > > would pacbell filtering all multicast at all CPE equipemt fall into your > > > > bucket, where do you draw the line? > > > > At IP, as Bob Braden said. > > > > SMTP is _over_ IP. > > Wrong. RFC821 says: > >SMTP is independent of the particular transmission subsystem and >requires only a reliable ordered data stream channel. Appendices A, >B, C, and D describe the use of SMTP with various transport services. >A Glossary provides the definitions of terms as used in this >document. Appendix A is SMTP over TCP (over IP). (I was implying that it was on TOP of IP, not that it was exclusively on top of IP). SMTP in the Internet is, by definition, over IP. STD1 defined only one required reliable ordered data stream protocol - TCP. > > Multicast _redefines_ IP (or portions of the address space thereof); it > > could be argued that a service provider sells 'Internet' without selling > > multicast IP. > > See STD1 for a list of "required" protocols. Multicasting is RFC1112, one of the 'required' protocols. On page 1 of that RFC: Level 0: no support for IP multicasting There is, at this time, no requirement that all IP implementations support IP multicasting. Level 0 hosts will, in general, be unaffected by multicast activity. The only exception arises on some types of local network, where the presence of level 1 or 2 hosts may cause misdelivery of multicast IP datagrams to level 0 hosts. Such datagrams can easily be identified by the presence of a class D IP address in their destination address field; they should be quietly discarded by hosts that do not support IP multicasting. Interestingly, the RFC indicates 'should be quietly dropped' where not supported. There is no requirement that they not be dropped, or that the dropping be quiet. Joe
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Joe; > > > would pacbell filtering all multicast at all CPE equipemt fall into your > > > bucket, where do you draw the line? > > At IP, as Bob Braden said. > > SMTP is _over_ IP. Wrong. RFC821 says: SMTP is independent of the particular transmission subsystem and requires only a reliable ordered data stream channel. Appendices A, B, C, and D describe the use of SMTP with various transport services. A Glossary provides the definitions of terms as used in this document. > Multicast _redefines_ IP (or portions of the address space thereof); it > could be argued that a service provider sells 'Internet' without selling > multicast IP. See STD1 for a list of "required" protocols. Masataka Ohta
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
> From: Joe Touch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > ... > > > At IP, as Bob Braden said. > > > > > > SMTP is _over_ IP. > > > > > > Multicast _redefines_ IP (or portions of the address space thereof); it > > > could be argued that a service provider sells 'Internet' without selling > > > multicast IP. > > > > That grossly overstates the difference between multicast IP services and > > classic IP services. For one thing, many multicast applications work > ... > 'Internet' is about speaking IP and ICMP. And which multicast application isn't? > There are many variants of routing; none are required to be deployed > _throughout_ the Internet. Static routes are sufficient, and 'who speaks > what routing protocol' and 'what the routes mean' (CIDR included) is a > matter of consensus among parties exchanging a single routing protocol, > not an Internet-wide requirement. What is the relevance of that to the question of when a package labeled "The Internet" is a fraud? BGP4 is a lot newer than multicasting. Would you say that an ISP with broken routing that makes a significant part of the net unreachable is still legitimately selling "The Internet"? > > It's also a of a stretch to call the 1985 change of class D from > > "unused" or "reserved" to the multicast space a redefinition of the > > IP address space. > > Under classic IP, class D was defined as unused/reserved; > under multicast IP, class D is now defined as multicast. > That is the purest form of the change of a definition. > While it affects only a portion of all IP packets, it did redefine > the meaning of that portion. In exactly what way did it redefine any IP header bits? Yes, what routers must do and the link-layer destination of some IP addresses was tweaked, but little more than what RFC 1122 did to broadcast addresses. The multicast changes were no than many other changes since 1085, including new ICMP types. Would you say an ISP selling "Internet email and web hosting" is honest if its hosts don't do slow start, because slow start wasn't there at the beginning? What about the many other new requirements, such as egress filtering and not advertising routes to RFC 1918 networks? Or the deprecation of RFC 822 promiscuous relaying? > (it redefined the meaning of values of the space, not the partitioning > of the space). More than the meanings of other large chunks of the 32-bit IPv4 space listed in RFC 960 as "reserved"? I'll grant the word "reserved" was a little general, but not enough to matter. The question is not "what was NFSNet in 1985." It is, "in 2000, at what point is a vendor claiming to be selling "The Internet" guilty of false and misleading advertising?" Would you really allow a vendor to sell exactly those services that were available in 1985? Why not pick 1970? If you must do it by date, 1990 or 1995 makes a lot more, but still not much sense. "The Internet" is not a static thing. When (and if) IPv6 takes off, would you say an "Internet" package could exclude the IPv6 universe, including hosts reachable with an embedded IPv4 address? If you're consistent, your answer must be "yse." If it were relevant, I'd ask about the cause for your unreasoning prejudice against multicasting. You might be able to support a claim that multicasting in the Internet is a bad idea, can't work in many ve large internets (small 'i'), is useless except for either trivial applications or applications that can do as well or better with broadcasting (e.g. NTP), or similar. Claiming that multicasting is not part of The Internet because it wasn't in TIP's and IMP's in 1970 is something else. Vernon Schryver[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Vernon Schryver wrote: > > > From: Joe Touch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > ... > > > > would pacbell filtering all multicast at all CPE equipemt fall into your > > > > bucket, where do you draw the line? > > > > At IP, as Bob Braden said. > > > > SMTP is _over_ IP. > > > > Multicast _redefines_ IP (or portions of the address space thereof); it > > could be argued that a service provider sells 'Internet' without selling > > multicast IP. > > That grossly overstates the difference between multicast IP services and > classic IP services. For one thing, many multicast applications work > fine, albeit with rather reduced scope, when sent to the local IP broadcast > address instead of a multicast address. For another, since CIDR > "_redefines_ IP (or portions of the address space thereof", are ISP's > that sell non-classful blocks not in the IP business? 'Internet' is about speaking IP and ICMP. There are many variants of routing; none are required to be deployed _throughout_ the Internet. Static routes are sufficient, and 'who speaks what routing protocol' and 'what the routes mean' (CIDR included) is a matter of consensus among parties exchanging a single routing protocol, not an Internet-wide requirement. > It's also a of a stretch to call the 1985 change of class D from > "unused" or "reserved" to the multicast space a redefinition of the > IP address space. Under classic IP, class D was defined as unused/reserved; under multicast IP, class D is now defined as multicast. That is the purest form of the change of a definition. While it affects only a portion of all IP packets, it did redefine the meaning of that portion. (it redefined the meaning of values of the space, not the partitioning of the space). Joe
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Thus spake "Brijesh Kumar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 1. A WAP phone without an IP address is not an Internet device. And, > no one claims so. The telcos who offer WAP service (at least in my town) market it as "Wireless Internet Access". They do not advertise it as "wireless application-proxy-based access to certain web pages", which is what they're really selling. > 2. A WAP device can have both IP and non-IP addresses. So a WAP > device could be an Internet device at one time and non-Internet device > a bit later (at least in theory). If it speaks IP, it's Internet. None of the WAP phones I've used or seen so far speak IP. > 3. An IP address is not very useful on most mobile (cellular) devices. With the current billing model of per-minute connection charges and slow speeds, it's not useful. The economics just aren't there for the consumer. If the business model were different, it could definitely be useful -- if my laptop had fast, always-on wireless IP access at a reasonable price, I'd never go to the office. > A lot of useful services and applications can be provided without IP > on the wireless devices. That includes sending and receiving mails > to/from the Internet, and limited web browsing via proxy gateways. Agreed. Those services are useful, and they can be done without IP -- it's just not Internet. Let's not forget one of the most significant reasons the Internet was created was to eliminate the need for network-based application gateways. In this context, WAP devices are anti-Internet. > 4. Wireless web access using IP is already here, but very few bother > to use it. Networks with the ability to handle IP traffic such as CDPD > have traditionally very low (as per my info, under 15% or so) capacity > utilization and just about every network is under utilized, and in big > loss situation, so much for IP access in wireless devices. At the same > time GSM SMS which needs no IP addressing has a tremendous > demands. So go figure out utility and economics of IP addresses in > wireless devices for now. See above. S | | Stephen Sprunk, K5SSS, CCIE #3723 :|::|:Network Design Consultant, HCOE :|||: :|||: 14875 Landmark Blvd #400; Dallas, TX .:|||:..:|||:.Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Bob Braden writes: > -Original Message- > > Jon Postel would have said: If it speaks IP (UDP/TCP are not > necessary), then it's Internet, else not. I will add a bit to this discussion. 1. A WAP phone without an IP address is not an Internet device. And, no one claims so. 2. A WAP device can have both IP and non-IP addresses. So a WAP device could be an Internet device at one time and non-Internet device a bit later (at least in theory). 3. An IP address is not very useful on most mobile (cellular) devices. A lot of useful services and applications can be provided without IP on the wireless devices. That includes sending and receiving mails to/from the Internet, and limited web browsing via proxy gateways. 4. Wireless web access using IP is already here, but very few bother to use it. Networks with the ability to handle IP traffic such as CDPD have traditionally very low (as per my info, under 15% or so) capacity utilization and just about every network is under utilized, and in big loss situation, so much for IP access in wireless devices. At the same time GSM SMS which needs no IP addressing has a tremendous demands. So go figure out utility and economics of IP addresses in wireless devices for now. Cheers, --brijesh Ennovate Networks Inc.
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
> From: Joe Touch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > ... > > > would pacbell filtering all multicast at all CPE equipemt fall into your > > > bucket, where do you draw the line? > > At IP, as Bob Braden said. > > SMTP is _over_ IP. > > Multicast _redefines_ IP (or portions of the address space thereof); it > could be argued that a service provider sells 'Internet' without selling > multicast IP. That grossly overstates the difference between multicast IP services and classic IP services. For one thing, many multicast applications work fine, albeit with rather reduced scope, when sent to the local IP broadcast address instead of a multicast address. For another, since CIDR "_redefines_ IP (or portions of the address space thereof", are ISP's that sell non-classful blocks not in the IP business? It's also a of a stretch to call the 1985 change of class D from "unused" or "reserved" to the multicast space a redefinition of the IP address space. (RFC 966 mentions the change. RFC 960 still said "Note: No addresses are allowed with the three highest-order bits set to 1-1-1. These addresses (sometimes called "class D") are reserved.") Vernon Schryver[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Vernon Schryver wrote: > > > > > > think we mean having unincumbered availability of the common application > > > > > protocols, email, http, ftp, ssh, ... > > > > > > > > that's not quite enough; in the UK we're seeing cable-modem ISPs > > > > attempt to restrict services to those applications, or to a subset of > > > > those applications (lotsa luck setting up an http server or using > > > > ssh.) > > > > ... > > > > > > and also like AOL's redirecting proxies for out-bound SMTP? > > > and the port-25 filtering of many ISP's including UUNET? > > From: Rick H Wesson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > would pacbell filtering all multicast at all CPE equipemt fall into your > > bucket, where do you draw the line? At IP, as Bob Braden said. SMTP is _over_ IP. Multicast _redefines_ IP (or portions of the address space thereof); it could be argued that a service provider sells 'Internet' without selling multicast IP. Joe
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
> Does it need to be if the Web/Wap app can handle this format? web/wap apps handle a very small number of protocols compared to the protocols that are handled by IP and used in practice. Keith
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
hi arindam try any of the WAP Emulators - from Nokia.com , phone.com etc Using that you can get the feel of the WAP world . cheers Aditya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I have no access to WAP as it is, so far. Can see a glimpse through the > Internet! Anybody who can give any suggestions however will not get a > prize > > "Parkinson, Jonathan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 06-07-2000 03:30:32 PM > > To: 'Jon Crowcroft' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > cc: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > Wellas I see it, and belive me I may be wrong 'Its been known' :-) This been > the IETF talks about well Internet ... > > >>I disagree, WAP, Wireless Application Protocol, Its a way of transmitting > >>data I.E. to and from the Web. How does this not fall under the Internet > >>Umbrella ? > > 1 youcan't get at an arbirtrary web page > 2/ you can't get at an arbitraty application written on TCP/IP or > UDP/IP > > A)youcan't get at an arbirtrary web page (Yes but you can navigate via WAP > I.E BT Genie) and there are places/portals that transform a webpage to WAP > format. > > B/ you can't get at an arbitraty application written on TCP/IP or UDP/IP. > Does it need to be if the Web/Wap app can handle this format? > > -Original Message----- > From: Jon Crowcroft [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 4:19 PM > To: Parkinson, Jonathan > Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > In message > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > "Parkinson, Jonathan" typed: > > >>I disagree, WAP, Wireless Application Protocol, Its a way of transmitting > >>data I.E. to and from the Web. How does this not fall under the Internet > >>Umbrella ? > > 1 youcan't get at an arbirtrary web page > 2/ you can't get at an arbitraty application written on TCP/IP or > UDP/IP > > ergo its not internet, its not Internet, and its not provided by > Internet Service Providers, and this is Very Silly > > WAP is quite a neat idea but its a prototype - as folks have said, SMS > is very cool - generalisations of it are cooler - native IP based ones > cooler stil coz then your application base can benefot from the > breadth and depth of stuff that people develop all around the world > for IP and the disciplines and understanding of markets that ISPs now > have.. > > mobile telephony service providers have a reasonable understanding of > one thing - telephony, based in years of fixed/wireline telephony - > however, this doesnt mean they haev much of a clue when it comes to > software based services that people are exponentiateding in the native > IP world.. > > >>Thanks > >>Jon > >> > >>-Original Message- > >>From: Ashutosh Agarwal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >>Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 2:25 PM > >>To: 'Taylor, Johnny' > >>Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' > >>Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > >> > >> > >>Hi all, > >>I fully agree with Lars. Even I believe WAP does not fall under the > Internet > >>Umbrella > >> > >> > >>Ashutosh Agarwal > >>e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >>Change your thoughts and you change your world. > >>The Buddha > >> > >> > >>> -Original Message- > >>> From: Taylor, Johnny [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 12:15 AM > >>> To: Lars-Erik Jonsson; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > >>> > >>> The Internet allows all protocols to in-operate with her. This is the > >>> uniqueness > >>> of the web. Therefore WAP falls within this area! > >>> > >>> -Original Message- > >>> From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >>> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:54 AM > >>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> Subject: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi Folks!! > >>> > >>> I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that > WAP > >>> is > >>> "mobile Internet". In m
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
I have no access to WAP as it is, so far. Can see a glimpse through the Internet! Anybody who can give any suggestions however will not get a prize "Parkinson, Jonathan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 06-07-2000 03:30:32 PM To: 'Jon Crowcroft' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? Wellas I see it, and belive me I may be wrong 'Its been known' :-) This been the IETF talks about well Internet ... >>I disagree, WAP, Wireless Application Protocol, Its a way of transmitting >>data I.E. to and from the Web. How does this not fall under the Internet >>Umbrella ? 1 youcan't get at an arbirtrary web page 2/ you can't get at an arbitraty application written on TCP/IP or UDP/IP A)youcan't get at an arbirtrary web page (Yes but you can navigate via WAP I.E BT Genie) and there are places/portals that transform a webpage to WAP format. B/ you can't get at an arbitraty application written on TCP/IP or UDP/IP. Does it need to be if the Web/Wap app can handle this format? -Original Message- From: Jon Crowcroft [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 4:19 PM To: Parkinson, Jonathan Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is WAP mobile Internet?? In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Parkinson, Jonathan" typed: >>I disagree, WAP, Wireless Application Protocol, Its a way of transmitting >>data I.E. to and from the Web. How does this not fall under the Internet >>Umbrella ? 1 youcan't get at an arbirtrary web page 2/ you can't get at an arbitraty application written on TCP/IP or UDP/IP ergo its not internet, its not Internet, and its not provided by Internet Service Providers, and this is Very Silly WAP is quite a neat idea but its a prototype - as folks have said, SMS is very cool - generalisations of it are cooler - native IP based ones cooler stil coz then your application base can benefot from the breadth and depth of stuff that people develop all around the world for IP and the disciplines and understanding of markets that ISPs now have.. mobile telephony service providers have a reasonable understanding of one thing - telephony, based in years of fixed/wireline telephony - however, this doesnt mean they haev much of a clue when it comes to software based services that people are exponentiateding in the native IP world.. >>Thanks >>Jon >> >>-----Original Message- >>From: Ashutosh Agarwal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 2:25 PM >>To: 'Taylor, Johnny' >>Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' >>Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? >> >> >>Hi all, >>I fully agree with Lars. Even I believe WAP does not fall under the Internet >>Umbrella >> >> >>Ashutosh Agarwal >>e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>Change your thoughts and you change your world. >> The Buddha >> >> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Taylor, Johnny [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 12:15 AM >>> To: Lars-Erik Jonsson; [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? >>> >>> The Internet allows all protocols to in-operate with her. This is the >>> uniqueness >>> of the web. Therefore WAP falls within this area! >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:54 AM >>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Subject: Is WAP mobile Internet?? >>> >>> >>> Hi Folks!! >>> >>> I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that WAP >>> is >>> "mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile Internet at all. The >>> Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet >>> Protocols, >>> which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should not use WAP (even >>> if I >>> have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is their problem, >>> but >>> when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same sentence I >>> think >>> it >>> is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is there, but be honest >>> about >>> what it is. >>> >>> Cheers! >>> /Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions) >> cheers jon The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Wellas I see it, and belive me I may be wrong 'Its been known' :-) This been the IETF talks about well Internet ... >>I disagree, WAP, Wireless Application Protocol, Its a way of transmitting >>data I.E. to and from the Web. How does this not fall under the Internet >>Umbrella ? 1 youcan't get at an arbirtrary web page 2/ you can't get at an arbitraty application written on TCP/IP or UDP/IP A)youcan't get at an arbirtrary web page (Yes but you can navigate via WAP I.E BT Genie) and there are places/portals that transform a webpage to WAP format. B/ you can't get at an arbitraty application written on TCP/IP or UDP/IP. Does it need to be if the Web/Wap app can handle this format? -Original Message- From: Jon Crowcroft [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 4:19 PM To: Parkinson, Jonathan Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is WAP mobile Internet?? In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Parkinson, Jonathan" typed: >>I disagree, WAP, Wireless Application Protocol, Its a way of transmitting >>data I.E. to and from the Web. How does this not fall under the Internet >>Umbrella ? 1 youcan't get at an arbirtrary web page 2/ you can't get at an arbitraty application written on TCP/IP or UDP/IP ergo its not internet, its not Internet, and its not provided by Internet Service Providers, and this is Very Silly WAP is quite a neat idea but its a prototype - as folks have said, SMS is very cool - generalisations of it are cooler - native IP based ones cooler stil coz then your application base can benefot from the breadth and depth of stuff that people develop all around the world for IP and the disciplines and understanding of markets that ISPs now have.. mobile telephony service providers have a reasonable understanding of one thing - telephony, based in years of fixed/wireline telephony - however, this doesnt mean they haev much of a clue when it comes to software based services that people are exponentiateding in the native IP world.. >>Thanks >>Jon >> >>-Original Message- >>From: Ashutosh Agarwal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 2:25 PM >>To: 'Taylor, Johnny' >>Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' >>Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? >> >> >>Hi all, >>I fully agree with Lars. Even I believe WAP does not fall under the Internet >>Umbrella >> >> >>Ashutosh Agarwal >>e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>Change your thoughts and you change your world. >> The Buddha >>---------------- >> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Taylor, Johnny [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 12:15 AM >>> To:Lars-Erik Jonsson; [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? >>> >>> The Internet allows all protocols to in-operate with her. This is the >>> uniqueness >>> of the web. Therefore WAP falls within this area! >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:54 AM >>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Subject: Is WAP mobile Internet?? >>> >>> >>> Hi Folks!! >>> >>> I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that WAP >>> is >>> "mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile Internet at all. The >>> Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet >>> Protocols, >>> which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should not use WAP (even >>> if I >>> have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is their problem, >>> but >>> when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same sentence I >>> think >>> it >>> is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is there, but be honest >>> about >>> what it is. >>> >>> Cheers! >>> /Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions) >> cheers jon
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Jon Postel would have said: If it speaks IP (UDP/TCP are not necessary), then it's Internet, else not. I thought part of the argument was about capitalization of the I. if its lowercase, then its using IP, if its uppercase then you can expect to use global Internet addresses and achieve a substantive amount of end-to-end connectivity. Of course, that was before NAT. However, during the 1980s the IAB tried to float the concept of an extended Internet defined by email connectivity. Is this different to John Quartermains Matrix definition? Gosh, how prescient to choose that word... -George -- George Michaelson | DSTC Pty Ltd Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]| University of Qld 4072 Phone: +61 7 3365 4310| Australia Fax: +61 7 3365 4311| http://www.dstc.edu.au
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
*> From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Jul 5 08:58:47 2000 *> To: "Parkinson, Jonathan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> *> cc: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] *> Subject: Re: Is WAP mobile Internet?? *> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jul 2000 15:15:13 BST." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> *> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 16:19:23 +0100 *> From: Jon Crowcroft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> *> X-Loop: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *> Content-Length: 3148 *> X-Lines: 95 *> *> *> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, *> "Parkinson, Jonathan" typed: *> *> >>I disagree, WAP, Wireless Application Protocol, Its a way of transmitting *> >>data I.E. to and from the Web. How does this not fall under the Internet *> >>Umbrella ? *> Jon Postel would have said: If it speaks IP (UDP/TCP are not necessary), then it's Internet, else not. However, during the 1980s the IAB tried to float the concept of an extended Internet defined by email connectivity. Bob Braden
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
At 17.25 +0100 00-07-05, Lloyd Wood wrote: > > i may not choose to use/install them > > all, but the commumications technology i use (note this did not say the end > > device) should not prevent me from doing so. > >...without having to ask some telco's permission or pay more to enable >the ability. (This is distinct from charging for extreme capacity >use.) There is nothing wrong by providers selling you one thing (accessing data also available on the Internet) for one sum of money, and the ability to have Internet access for another (higher). What I don't like is that providers sell non-Internet connections and then "charge more" for the abilities you list above (and others). I.e. if they can produce something silly which the market buys, I don't see anything wrong with that -- but it should NOT be called Internet Access. In Sweden we have rules for how much beef there have to be (percentage) for something to be called "meatballs". Other things are called "frying balls", "lean balls" etc. The same market-driven regulation should be true for "Internet Access". Patrik
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
> but that by "on the internet" i >think we mean having unincumbered availability of the common application >protocols, email, http, ftp, ssh, ... I'd go farther than that. Internet access includes only only the ability to use the common protocols, but also the uncommon ones - indeed, any protocol that works over IP. some folks tend to think that as long as the popular protocols (as measured by counts of packets with certain port numbers) are handled this is good enough. there are at least two fallacies here - (1) it assumes that the Internet is static and that no new protocols need be accomodated and (2) it assumes that there is a relationship between the amount of bandwidth used by a protocol and the importance of that protocol. IMHO, one of the most important features of the Internet is its flexibility, and in particular, its ability to handle arbitrary protocols as long as they can run over IP. Keith
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
> > > > think we mean having unincumbered availability of the common application > > > > protocols, email, http, ftp, ssh, ... > > > > > > that's not quite enough; in the UK we're seeing cable-modem ISPs > > > attempt to restrict services to those applications, or to a subset of > > > those applications (lotsa luck setting up an http server or using > > > ssh.) > > > ... > > > > and also like AOL's redirecting proxies for out-bound SMTP? > > and the port-25 filtering of many ISP's including UUNET? > From: Rick H Wesson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > would pacbell filtering all multicast at all CPE equipemt fall into your > bucket, where do you draw the line? I think it depends on motives. Port 25 filtering and SMTP redirecting proxies exist for the same reasons slumlords put bulletproof glass in their windows and chainlink fencing on their balconies instead of evicting or otherwise dealing with criminals. Port 25 filtering and SMTP redirecting is easier but more expensive in the long run than enforcing strong terms of service, such as $500/day clean-up fees. HTTP redirecting proxies sometimes have much worse, completely intolerable motives, from unvarnish government censorship of political speech to inserting ads. Historically multicast was filtered because routers didn't know about it and those operating them no better informed and caring even less. Today, I can still imagine some technical motives for filtering multicast packets. They would be defensible for a while. I know nothing about what PacBell is doing now, but they're filtering class-D addresses for any except real technical reasons that they honestly plan to fix, then they are not selling Internet access. If they are advertising otherwise, then appropriate legal steps should be taken. Instead of silly blathering about getting wireless phones and SuperHypeWay access to the billions of people who currently have neither those modern necessities, reasonable food or shelter, or even per capita incomes of $1000/year, those who care about the Internet should be worrying about the efforts of the old media and communications outfits to transform the Internet into something they know, whether POTS or TV. Vernon Schryver[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Vernon, would pacbell filtering all multicast at all CPE equipemt fall into your bucket, where do you draw the line? -rick On Wed, 5 Jul 2000, Vernon Schryver wrote: > > From: Lloyd Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > ... > > > my point is not to push sms or whatever. but that by "on the internet" i > > > think we mean having unincumbered availability of the common application > > > protocols, email, http, ftp, ssh, ... > > > > that's not quite enough; in the UK we're seeing cable-modem ISPs > > attempt to restrict services to those applications, or to a subset of > > those applications (lotsa luck setting up an http server or using > > ssh.) > > ... > > and also like AOL's redirecting proxies for out-bound SMTP? > and the port-25 filtering of many ISP's including UUNET? > > > Vernon Schryver[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
> From: Lloyd Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > ... > > my point is not to push sms or whatever. but that by "on the internet" i > > think we mean having unincumbered availability of the common application > > protocols, email, http, ftp, ssh, ... > > that's not quite enough; in the UK we're seeing cable-modem ISPs > attempt to restrict services to those applications, or to a subset of > those applications (lotsa luck setting up an http server or using > ssh.) > ... and also like AOL's redirecting proxies for out-bound SMTP? and the port-25 filtering of many ISP's including UUNET? Vernon Schryver[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
>>Jon, I wonder how WAP will fit into Multicast apps - even >>if its single line txt based msg's app ? football scores/(tennis etc) share price (look at stockbroker trading terminal - they have very small amount of realestate for the given instrument) many many things would work v. well - iff you had full ip capability... i guess you'd need an rtp mixer capability in the net for packet ip multiast as mixing at the receiver might stress the limited capacity...although as next generation rolls out, this might change too then ip voice conferencing using multicast (which kind of maps well onto real shared capacity channels anyhow) would be quite cute... a lot of sip stuff would be v. cute too (a lot of fancy call handling scripting things would be dead useful to be able to download onto the phone.)... cheers jon
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
->-Original Message- ->From: Jon Crowcroft [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] ->Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 11:19 AM ->To: Parkinson, Jonathan ->Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->Subject: Re: Is WAP mobile Internet?? -> -> -> ->In message -><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ->"Parkinson, Jonathan" typed: -> -> >>I disagree, WAP, Wireless Application Protocol, Its a way ->of transmitting -> >>data I.E. to and from the Web. How does this not fall ->under the Internet -> >>Umbrella ? -> ->1 youcan't get at an arbirtrary web page ->2/ you can't get at an arbitraty application written on TCP/IP or ->UDP/IP Jon, I wonder how WAP will fit into Multicast apps - even if its single line txt based msg's app ? /pd
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
On Wed, 5 Jul 2000, Stewart Nolan wrote: > The web sits atop the internet, as do the protocols mentioned, as does > WAP. Yes - the Internet in my mind is just a collection of protocols, be they what they may. Over what physical medium data travel is irrelevant, but doesn't the term "on the Internet" mean the object can query and be queryied, over this infrastructure? -- steven
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Parkinson, Jonathan" typed: >>I disagree, WAP, Wireless Application Protocol, Its a way of transmitting >>data I.E. to and from the Web. How does this not fall under the Internet >>Umbrella ? 1 youcan't get at an arbirtrary web page 2/ you can't get at an arbitraty application written on TCP/IP or UDP/IP ergo its not internet, its not Internet, and its not provided by Internet Service Providers, and this is Very Silly WAP is quite a neat idea but its a prototype - as folks have said, SMS is very cool - generalisations of it are cooler - native IP based ones cooler stil coz then your application base can benefot from the breadth and depth of stuff that people develop all around the world for IP and the disciplines and understanding of markets that ISPs now have.. mobile telephony service providers have a reasonable understanding of one thing - telephony, based in years of fixed/wireline telephony - however, this doesnt mean they haev much of a clue when it comes to software based services that people are exponentiateding in the native IP world.. >>Thanks >>Jon >> >>-Original Message- >>From: Ashutosh Agarwal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 2:25 PM >>To: 'Taylor, Johnny' >>Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' >>Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? >> >> >>Hi all, >>I fully agree with Lars. Even I believe WAP does not fall under the Internet >>Umbrella >> >> >>Ashutosh Agarwal >>e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>Change your thoughts and you change your world. >> The Buddha >> >> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Taylor, Johnny [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 12:15 AM >>> To:Lars-Erik Jonsson; [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? >>> >>> The Internet allows all protocols to in-operate with her. This is the >>> uniqueness >>> of the web. Therefore WAP falls within this area! >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:54 AM >>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Subject: Is WAP mobile Internet?? >>> >>> >>> Hi Folks!! >>> >>> I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that WAP >>> is >>> "mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile Internet at all. The >>> Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet >>> Protocols, >>> which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should not use WAP (even >>> if I >>> have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is their problem, >>> but >>> when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same sentence I >>> think >>> it >>> is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is there, but be honest >>> about >>> what it is. >>> >>> Cheers! >>> /Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions) >> cheers jon
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
I think mobile internet is misleading. (A subset of)mobile web perhaps, but not mobile internet. What about services such as SMTP/Telnet/Usenet? These are not protocols that a WAP Browser will deal with, it might emulate the services provided via WAP, but it won't do it natively. The web sits atop the internet, as do the protocols mentioned, as does WAP. bcnu, sn > -Original Message- > From: Parkinson, Jonathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: 05 July 2000 15:15 > To: 'Ashutosh Agarwal'; 'Taylor, Johnny' > Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' > Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > > I disagree, WAP, Wireless Application Protocol, Its a way of > transmitting > data I.E. to and from the Web. How does this not fall under > the Internet > Umbrella ? > > Thanks > Jon > > -Original Message- > From: Ashutosh Agarwal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 2:25 PM > To: 'Taylor, Johnny' > Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' > Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > > Hi all, > I fully agree with Lars. Even I believe WAP does not fall > under the Internet > Umbrella > > > Ashutosh Agarwal > e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- > -- > Change your thoughts and you change your world. > The Buddha > -- > -- > > > -Original Message- > > From: Taylor, Johnny [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 12:15 AM > > To: Lars-Erik Jonsson; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject:RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > > > The Internet allows all protocols to in-operate with her. > This is the > > uniqueness > > of the web. Therefore WAP falls within this area! > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:54 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > > > > > Hi Folks!! > > > > I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people > often say that WAP > > is > > "mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile > Internet at all. The > > Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet > > Protocols, > > which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should > not use WAP (even > > if I > > have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is > their problem, > > but > > when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same > sentence I > > think > > it > > is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is > there, but be honest > > about > > what it is. > > > > Cheers! > > /Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions) >
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
if i have a device which can only send and receive email, am i "on the internet?" if i have a device that lets me send and receive messages to/from internet users, am i "on the internet" note that sms with a gateway satisfies the last one. my point is not to push sms or whatever. but that by "on the internet" i think we mean having unincumbered availability of the common application protocols, email, http, ftp, ssh, ... i may not choose to use/install them all, but the commumications technology i use (note this did not say the end device) should not prevent me from doing so. e.g. that one-chip web server, with no human interface, is indeed "on the internet." a wap phone is not internet, it's waporware ! randy
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
At 15.15 +0100 00-07-05, Parkinson, Jonathan wrote: >I disagree, WAP, Wireless Application Protocol, Its a way of transmitting >data I.E. to and from the Web. How does this not fall under the Internet >Umbrella ? Things connected to the "Internet" is able to exchange IP packets from other things connected to the "Internet". "web" is one application which can run where one have access to the Internet, and in some cases, you can even access the data "on the web" by using other services, like WAP. Patrik Faltstrom Area Director, Applications Area
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Title: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? I believe, I found part of the following text in WAP Forum's WEB-pages. However, I think the answer -from business and technology point of view- is simple; Is WAP mobile Internet ? Yes and NO WAP is using existing Internet standards. The WAP architecture was designed to enable standard Internet servers to provide services to wireless devices. In addition, when communicating with wireless devices, WAP uses many Internet standards such as XML, UDP and IP. The WAP wireless protocols are based on Internet standards such as HTTP and TLS but have been optimised for the unique constraints of the wireless environment. Internet standards such as HTML, HTTP, TLS and TCP are inefficient over mobile networks, requiring: Large amounts of mainly text based data to be sent. Standard HTML web content generally cannot be displayed in an effective way on the small size screens of mobile phones and pagers, and navigation around and between screens is not easy. HTTP and TCP are not optimised for the gaps of coverage (change over etc.), long latencies and limited bandwidth associated with wireless networks. HTTP sends its headers and commands in text format instead of compressed binary. Wireless services using these protocols are often slow, costly and difficult to use. The TLS security standard requires many messages to be exchanged between client and server which, with wireless transmission latencies, results in a very slow response for the user. WAP has been optimised to solve all these problems (??? my oppinion), utilising binary transmission and greater compression of data, and is optimised for long latency and low/medium bandwidth. WAP session protocol stack can cope with limited coverage (gaps of coverage) and can operate over a wide variety of wireless transports using IP where possible and other optimised protocols where IP is impossible (WDP). The WML language used for WAP content makes optimum use of small screens and allows easy navigation with without a full keyboard, and has built-in scaleability from two-line text displays to the full graphic screens of smart phones and communicators. Additionally, WAP goes far beyond the Internet technology not in order to extent the Internet, but to address functional entities like SIM/WIM, GSM-Telephony etc., they are not part of the Internet market technology. They are an important part of the cellular technology and they simply do exist and have to be addressed. --- Is WAP going in a different direction than Internet standards do ? NO. Many of WAP Forum's protocols are Internet standards such as XML, IP and UDP. The Forum has created a protocol suite that is optimised for the mobile environment. WAP Forum is working closely with the W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) and the IETF (Internet Engineering Task Force) to ensure that the future versions of HTML, HTTP and TCP will accommodate the special needs of mobile devices and can be supported in the WAP framework. Panagiotis Tsigaridas Telco Information Systems Manager STET Hellas Telecommunuications S.A. -Original Message- From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 4:18 PM To: Taylor, Johnny; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is WAP mobile Internet?? The Web is NOT the Internet. The Web is one Internet application. /L-E >The Internet allows all protocols to in-operate with her. This is the >uniqueness >of the web. Therefore WAP falls within this area! > >-Original Message- >From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:54 AM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > >Hi Folks!! > >I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that WAP >is >"mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile Internet at all. The >Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet Protocols, >which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should not use WAP (even >if I >have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is their problem, >but >when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same sentence I think >it >is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is there, but be honest >about >what it is. > >Cheers! >/Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions) >
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
I disagree, WAP, Wireless Application Protocol, Its a way of transmitting data I.E. to and from the Web. How does this not fall under the Internet Umbrella ? Thanks Jon -Original Message- From: Ashutosh Agarwal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 2:25 PM To: 'Taylor, Johnny' Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? Hi all, I fully agree with Lars. Even I believe WAP does not fall under the Internet Umbrella Ashutosh Agarwal e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Change your thoughts and you change your world. The Buddha > -Original Message- > From: Taylor, Johnny [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 12:15 AM > To: Lars-Erik Jonsson; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > The Internet allows all protocols to in-operate with her. This is the > uniqueness > of the web. Therefore WAP falls within this area! > > -Original Message- > From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:54 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > > Hi Folks!! > > I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that WAP > is > "mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile Internet at all. The > Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet > Protocols, > which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should not use WAP (even > if I > have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is their problem, > but > when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same sentence I > think > it > is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is there, but be honest > about > what it is. > > Cheers! > /Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions)
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Well the web is indeed the Internet we are talking about The Internet is an internet, but an internet is not an Internet always Ashutosh Agarwal e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Change your thoughts and you change your world. The Buddha > -Original Message- > From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 6:48 PM > To: Taylor, Johnny; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > The Web is NOT the Internet. The Web is one Internet application. > > /L-E > > > > >The Internet allows all protocols to in-operate with her. This is the > >uniqueness > >of the web. Therefore WAP falls within this area! > > > >-Original Message- > >From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:54 AM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > > > > >Hi Folks!! > > > >I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that > WAP > >is > >"mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile Internet at all. The > >Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet > Protocols, > >which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should not use WAP > (even > >if I > >have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is their > problem, > >but > >when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same sentence I > think > >it > >is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is there, but be > honest > >about > >what it is. > > > >Cheers! > >/Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions) > >
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
> The Internet allows all protocols to in-operate with her. With it, you mean.
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
> Here in Japan we have 8 million non-WAP mobile internet users, uh, no. if you don't have IP to the phone, it's not mobile Internet. calling it Internet is just deceptive advertising.
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Hi all, I fully agree with Lars. Even I believe WAP does not fall under the Internet Umbrella Ashutosh Agarwal e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Change your thoughts and you change your world. The Buddha > -Original Message- > From: Taylor, Johnny [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 12:15 AM > To: Lars-Erik Jonsson; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > The Internet allows all protocols to in-operate with her. This is the > uniqueness > of the web. Therefore WAP falls within this area! > > -Original Message- > From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:54 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > > Hi Folks!! > > I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that WAP > is > "mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile Internet at all. The > Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet > Protocols, > which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should not use WAP (even > if I > have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is their problem, > but > when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same sentence I > think > it > is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is there, but be honest > about > what it is. > > Cheers! > /Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions)
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
The Web is NOT the Internet. The Web is one Internet application. /L-E >The Internet allows all protocols to in-operate with her. This is the >uniqueness >of the web. Therefore WAP falls within this area! > >-Original Message- >From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:54 AM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Is WAP mobile Internet?? > > >Hi Folks!! > >I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that WAP >is >"mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile Internet at all. The >Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet Protocols, >which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should not use WAP (even >if I >have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is their problem, >but >when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same sentence I think >it >is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is there, but be honest >about >what it is. > >Cheers! >/Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions) >
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
The Internet allows all protocols to in-operate with her. This is the uniqueness of the web. Therefore WAP falls within this area! -Original Message- From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Is WAP mobile Internet?? Hi Folks!! I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that WAP is "mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile Internet at all. The Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet Protocols, which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should not use WAP (even if I have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is their problem, but when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same sentence I think it is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is there, but be honest about what it is. Cheers! /Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions)
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Good Point & I will tap into Japan Wireless infra-structure! -Original Message- From: Renfield Kuroda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 9:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is WAP mobile Internet?? I don't think WAP Mobile Internet any more than TCP/IP is Internet. The Mobile Internet is data/communication devices you carry around with you. Here in Japan we have 8 million non-WAP mobile internet users, plus another 2 million WAP users, and the numbers are exploding. But, and I know this may be the wrong mailing list for this comment, the point is a non-technical one. Users don't care if it's WAP/WML, or cHTML or MML or text SMS, on a cdmaONE network, PDC-P, or what. Technically, I think many agree that WAP and its various technical standards are ill-conceived and poorly executed, but that doesn't mean the potential of the Mobile Internet isn't there. I personally think if WAP migrated to xHTML and operators looked at the successes here in Japan, than the next generation of WAP phones (or whatever you call them) really can and will be Mobile Internet. Regards, r e n Lars-Erik Jonsson wrote: > Hi Folks!! > > I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that WAP is > "mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile Internet at all. The > Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet Protocols, > which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should not use WAP (even if I > have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is their problem, but > when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same sentence I think it > is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is there, but be honest about > what it is. > > Cheers! > /Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions) -- ascii: r e n f i e l d octal: \162 \145 \156 \146 \151 \145 \154 \144 hex: \x72 \x65 \x6e \x66 \x69 \x65 \x6c \x64 morgan stanley dean witter japan e-business technologies | engineering and strategy
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Great Catch. It doesn't get any more Mobile on the Internet then that! -Original Message- From: Parkinson, Jonathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 8:24 AM To: 'Lars-Erik Jonsson'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Is WAP mobile Internet?? Okay WAP at the moment is only in its baby stage, hence a few mobile phones have it and a few other devices, and yes at the moment its not very good, but that's because of the current technology. I know I keep going on about it, but, I'm sure Bluetooth can and will change the way people use WAP and as the applications become Bluetooth enabled, WAP is a perfect way of transmitting data. Have a look at http://news6.thdo.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid%5F791000/791297.stm Sony has said It is planning to put the Bluetooth short range wireless technology in almost every gadget it produces making it easier to get at data in any device, whether that is messages, music or video. IE Walkmans, laptops, digital cameras and even electronic pets like the Aibo robotic. WAP will be a perfect side technology for this. 'This is just my opinion and not that of Compaq's (Yet :-))' -Original Message- From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 12:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Is WAP mobile Internet?? Hi Folks!! I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that WAP is "mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile Internet at all. The Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet Protocols, which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should not use WAP (even if I have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is their problem, but when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same sentence I think it is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is there, but be honest about what it is. Cheers! /Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions)
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
r e n; > I don't think WAP Mobile Internet any more than TCP/IP is Internet. There is no such thing as WAP Mobile Internet. > The Mobile Internet is data/communication devices you carry around with you. > > Here in Japan we have 8 million non-WAP mobile internet users, plus another 2 > million WAP users, and the numbers are exploding. They are no internet users. Just as the Internet was not e-mail several years ago when e-mail was the most popular application, the Internet is not web. > But, and I know this may be the wrong mailing list for this comment, No. It is merely that your understanding on the Internet is wrong in any mailing list. Masataka Ohta
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
I don't think WAP Mobile Internet any more than TCP/IP is Internet. The Mobile Internet is data/communication devices you carry around with you. Here in Japan we have 8 million non-WAP mobile internet users, plus another 2 million WAP users, and the numbers are exploding. But, and I know this may be the wrong mailing list for this comment, the point is a non-technical one. Users don't care if it's WAP/WML, or cHTML or MML or text SMS, on a cdmaONE network, PDC-P, or what. Technically, I think many agree that WAP and its various technical standards are ill-conceived and poorly executed, but that doesn't mean the potential of the Mobile Internet isn't there. I personally think if WAP migrated to xHTML and operators looked at the successes here in Japan, than the next generation of WAP phones (or whatever you call them) really can and will be Mobile Internet. Regards, r e n Lars-Erik Jonsson wrote: > Hi Folks!! > > I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that WAP is > "mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile Internet at all. The > Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet Protocols, > which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should not use WAP (even if I > have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is their problem, but > when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same sentence I think it > is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is there, but be honest about > what it is. > > Cheers! > /Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions) -- ascii: r e n f i e l d octal: \162 \145 \156 \146 \151 \145 \154 \144 hex: \x72 \x65 \x6e \x66 \x69 \x65 \x6c \x64 morgan stanley dean witter japan e-business technologies | engineering and strategy S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
At 13.54 +0200 00-06-30, Lars-Erik Jonsson wrote: >I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that WAP is >"mobile Internet". Well, Ericsson do in their ads :-) :-) (I say to a person at Ericsson). From my point of view, you can (through a proxy service) access (some) Internet Services via WAP, but not Internet. Exactly because of the reasons you listed in your email. Internet is end2end IP. If you understand swedish, you can find one specification of "what should be part of an Internet connection" on http://www.itkommissionen.se/obs/obs_spec.html It specifies what is needed for calling something "Internet". Nothing connected to WAP will pass those tests. paf
RE: Is WAP mobile Internet??
Okay WAP at the moment is only in its baby stage, hence a few mobile phones have it and a few other devices, and yes at the moment its not very good, but that's because of the current technology. I know I keep going on about it, but, I'm sure Bluetooth can and will change the way people use WAP and as the applications become Bluetooth enabled, WAP is a perfect way of transmitting data. Have a look at http://news6.thdo.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid%5F791000/791297.stm Sony has said It is planning to put the Bluetooth short range wireless technology in almost every gadget it produces making it easier to get at data in any device, whether that is messages, music or video. IE Walkmans, laptops, digital cameras and even electronic pets like the Aibo robotic. WAP will be a perfect side technology for this. 'This is just my opinion and not that of Compaq's (Yet :-))' -Original Message- From: Lars-Erik Jonsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 12:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Is WAP mobile Internet?? Hi Folks!! I would like to hear your opinions about how WAP people often say that WAP is "mobile Internet". In my opinion, WAP is NOT mobile Internet at all. The Internet is built on the e2e principle and based on the Internet Protocols, which WAP is not. I can not tell people that they should not use WAP (even if I have my opinions about WAP). If they believe in WAP that is their problem, but when they try to use the words WAP and Internet in the same sentence I think it is time to clarify a few things. I accept that WAP is there, but be honest about what it is. Cheers! /Lars-Erik (expressing my PERSONAL opinions)
