Re: Re:Jon

2004-12-29 Thread Jon Murphy
Carlos,

I agree entirely - I misspoke. Music is defined within one's self. My intent
was merely to describe the transmission process from an external source, and
it was triggered by R's "tongue in cheek" speculation on conical strings. I
should have said that the ear defines what we physically hear, not what we
sense. A well educated "ear" may hear a two note "open chord" and feel the
full sense of the chord. I fell into the trap of confusing the music with
the sound, mea culpa, but understandable as I've been working on the
technical aspects of the sounds of strings.

As to Vibratory Force - Intent. That is above my pay grade. I am of a
generation that hasn't given much attention to self examination, be it "new
Age" or "old Age". The 1956 book "The Silent Generation" was written by a
Princeton professor based on interviews with my friends and classmates. They
were all anonymous, but I could name them by the interviews - and they
weren't really representative, as they talked about themselves. I think you
characterized the "new Agers" quite well - and in the 70s they did claim to
sharpen razor blades with mini pyramids (but to the best of my knowledge
none of them tried to shave with them).

I haven't the vaguest idea who John Keely is, nor what his Solar System is.
The music of the spheres is a concept that I think dates back to the ancient
Greeks, but if not then to the Middle Ages. A semi religious sense of the
organization of the universe. But it has been too many years for me to
remember the source of the phrase.

I'm afraid I'm an inveterate materialist (in the sense of the physical
universe, not in the sense of personal possessions). I see no invisible
forces influencing us (excepting the confirmed statistical effect of the
full moon on police reports, and the physical effect on the tides). I am
interested in vibrating String Theory (both that of musical strings and the
13 dimensional galactic sized "strings" that are being proposed as a basis
of modern astrophysics). But I'm only investigating the musical strings.

Oh what a boring man I must be, I am not in contact with any Force. Nor do I
introspect as to my Intent. I just like to play and hear music (much of it
internal), watch a bird fly and wish I could do it, shape a piece of wood
into something beautiful and read books (history, mystery, thrillers and
chillers). (That was incomplete, but I liked the rhymes). Being in my 70th
year it is probably that I'll find the eternal answers (if they are there)
sooner than most of you. I'd just as soon wait as long as possible.

Best, Jon


.i feel differently about Music, I can hear music without
any physical vibrations in the air, can hear it, grasp it
and put it on paper. Then it can appear as a alternate
sequence of variating air densities, but it was
already Music even before that.
The solely concern
of "creating alternate compressions in the air"-you can't be
that 'Technical' to the core can you? There is
more than the physical part to music-it's Feeling. Feeling is
Intent. We are Humans--much more than
machines. Machines can detect "vocabulary" and syntax commands,
mesure frequencies, classify in neat
taxonomy categories, detect faults and missmatches etc,  but
cannot be aware of Feeling.

I (or millions others) can write a musical piece and Intend
you to feel a particular feeling, mood or even image
from it. Without any "syntax", no "vocabulary".  And if
my Intending has been impeccable, if I had enough personal
power, energy and selflesness, then such a music can
move you to feel inexplicable joy, longing..: whatever
the feeling at hand is-even from a sh-i-tt-y LoFi recording
that doesn't challenge even half of the humanly audable range
of sound frequencies.

The Vibratory Force-Intent, is ancient and mysterious, that's
why it's 'Old Age'. It's everywhere and we can be friends
with it or command it. It starts by starting to examine your
true Intent for everything you do or say. Then you'll
discover that most of it is hooked on the "Me", it's a
'self-service' (mastur...). The 'Cult of ME' today-we
can't even give a gift nowadays without contaminating
the whole thing with some issue of the "Me" and its
endless worries for selfpresentation-lol.
In 'New Age' there is no need to examine Intent: you
can just dress up in something, chant, and dance with
some "godesses" in the forest (haha). A self presentation
circus where in the end you stay the same   a s s
that you are (or even worse).

So they sharpen razor blades in pyramids? I haven't
heard of that but may-be they are simply pragmatic
people that use a phenomenon, not "new-agers".
Did it ever occure to you that this phenomenon may
happen as a result of 'reversing time' effect in the pyramid (new age
asside-lol)?

The music of the spheres--John Keely's Solar System?

One thing is for sure---this world is more mysterious
and wonderous than we can ever dream of. To open
its wonders one need to explore honestly without
preconcieved judgements. There 

Re: List of surviving instruments

2004-12-29 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Gernot:

Hier ist es:

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/index.html#Lautenweltadressbuch

I expect to be updating the database shortly.

Regards,

Daniel Heiman

-- Gernot Hilger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello,
I remember a web database of surviving lutes and their museums, but I 
cannot find it anymore.

Could somebody please give me directions? Thank you
g



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Re:Jon

2004-12-29 Thread carlos flores
>Whatever I can show on the "sillyscope" or prove as to the effects of
>"spinning bodies" or conical strings on the actual tone production there is
>only one instrument that can define music. The human ear,

in my case it’s more the Heart that defines music, but it
doesn’t matter : big world, different ways

>Music is sound, a complex
>sound, yes. But still the alternate compressions and rarefactions of the
>sound (air) wave can only be heard as music by that ancient receiver.

..i feel differently about Music, I can hear music without
any physical vibrations in the air, can hear it, grasp it
and put it on paper. Then it can appear as a alternate
sequence of variating air densities, but it was
already Music even before that.
The solely concern
of “creating alternate compressions in the air”—you can’t be
that ‘Technical’ to the core can you? There is
more than the physical part to music—it’s Feeling. Feeling is
Intent. We are Humans--much more than
machines. Machines can detect "vocabulary" and syntax commands,
mesure frequencies, classify in neat
taxonomy categories, detect faults and missmatches etc,  but
cannot be aware of Feeling.

I (or millions others) can write a musical piece and Intend
you to feel a particular feeling, mood or even image
from it. Without any “syntax”, no “vocabulary”.  And if
my Intending has been impeccable, if I had enough personal
power, energy and selflesness, then such a music can
move you to feel inexplicable joy, longing..: whatever
the feeling at hand is—even from a sh-i-tt-y LoFi recording
that doesn't challenge even half of the humanly audable range
of sound frequencies.

The Vibratory Force-Intent, is ancient and mysterious, that’s
why it’s ‘Old Age’. It’s everywhere and we can be friends
with it or command it. It starts by starting to examine your
true Intent for everything you do or say. Then you’ll
discover that most of it is hooked on the “Me”, it’s a
‘self-service’ (mastur...). The ‘Cult of ME’ today—we
can’t even give a gift nowadays without contaminating
the whole thing with some issue of the “Me” and its
endless worries for selfpresentation-lol.
In ‘New Age’ there is no need to examine Intent: you
can just dress up in something, chant, and dance with
some “godesses” in the forest (haha). A self presentation
circus where in the end you stay the same   a s s
that you are (or even worse).

So they sharpen razor blades in pyramids? I haven't
heard of that but may-be they are simply pragmatic
people that use a phenomenon, not "new-agers".
Did it ever occure to you that this phenomenon may
happen as a result of 'reversing time' effect in the pyramid (new age 
asside-lol)?

The music of the spheres--John Keely's Solar System?

One thing is for sure---this world is more mysterious
and wonderous than we can ever dream of. To open
its wonders one need to explore honestly without
preconcieved judgements. There is one branch in
philosophy called phenomenology. There one is to
attempt to look at the world without priory. Epoche.

>have a few problems with your "like wow" vocabulary, but I think I'm
>working my way through it (and enjoying it).

Joy makes perfect:)
"like wow"...haha--makes one think of the way
'Valley Girl's talk-they've got
this lingo and one can be amazed at the number
of concepts they can "communicate"
with 2-3 words. Unfortunately, they're not really
carried by genres that deal with abstractions
or subtleties...like, yeah, whatever (lololol)

_
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Re: Re:Jon

2004-12-29 Thread rosinfiorini
hi Jon, i tried several times to post this Re. to your
message but it came up messed with "things" and numbers.
a try one last time-for whatever it is worth-haha:)
>Whatever I can show on the "sillyscope" or prove as to the effects of
>"spinning bodies" or conical strings on the actual tone production there i=
s
>only one instrument that can define music. The human ear,
in my case it=92s more the Heart that defines music, but it=20
doesn=92t matter : big world, different ways
>Music is sound, a complex
>sound, yes. But still the alternate compressions and rarefactions of the
>sound (air) wave can only be heard as music by that ancient receiver.
..i feel differently about Music, I can hear music without=20
any physical vibrations in the air, can hear it, grasp it
and put it on paper. Then it can appear as a alternate=20
sequence of variating air densities, but it was=20
already Music even before that.=20
The solely concern
of =93creating alternate compressions in the air=94=97you can=92t be
 that =91Technical=92 to the core can you? There is
more than the physical part to music=97it=92s Feeling. Feeling is=20
Intent. We are Humans--much more than
machines. Machines can detect "vocabulary" and syntax commands,=20
mesure frequencies, classify in neat
taxonomy categories, detect faults and missmatches etc,  but=20
cannot be aware of Feeling.
I (or millions others) can write a musical piece and Intend=20
you to feel a particular feeling, mood or even image
from it. Without any =93syntax=94, no =93vocabulary=94.  And if=20
my Intending has been impeccable, if I had enough personal
power, energy and selflesness, then such a music can=20
move you to feel inexplicable joy, longing..: whatever=20
the feeling at hand is=97even from a sh-i-tt-y LoFi recording=20
that doesn't challenge even half of the humanly audable range=20
of sound frequencies.=20
The Vibratory Force-Intent, is ancient and mysterious, that=92s=20
why it=92s =91Old Age=92. It=92s everywhere and we can be friends=20
with it or command it. It starts by starting to examine your=20
true Intent for everything you do or say. Then you=92ll=20
discover that most of it is hooked on the =93Me=94, it=92s a=20
=91self-service=92 (mastur...). The =91Cult of ME=92 today=97we=20
can=92t even give a gift nowadays without contaminating=20
the whole thing with some issue of the =93Me=94 and its=20
endless worries for selfpresentation-lol.
In =91New Age=92 there is no need to examine Intent: you=20
can just dress up in something, chant, and dance with=20
some =93godesses=94 in the forest (haha). A self presentation=20
circus where in the end you stay the same   a s s  =20
that you are (or even worse).=20
So they sharpen razor blades in pyramids? I haven't=20
heard of that but may-be they are simply pragmatic=20
people that use a phenomenon, not "new-agers".=20
Did it ever occure to you that this phenomenon may=20
happen as a result of 'reversing time' effect in the pyramid (new age assid=
e-lol)?
The music of the spheres--John Keely's Solar System?=20
One thing is for sure---this world is more mysterious=20
and wonderous than we can ever dream of. To open=20
its wonders one need to explore honestly without=20
preconcieved judgements. There is one branch in=20
philosophy called phenomenology. There one is to=20
attempt to look at the world without priory. Epoche.=20
>have a few problems with your "like wow" vocabulary, but I think I'm
>working my way through it (and enjoying it).
Joy makes perfect:)
"like wow"...haha--makes one think of the way =20
'Valley Girl's talk-they've got
this lingo and one can be amazed at the number=20
of concepts they can "communicate"
with 2-3 words. Unfortunately, they're not really=20
carried by genres that deal with abstractions
or subtleties...like, yeah, whatever (lololol)
--

Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr=20


--

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Re:Thomas Re: Elias

2004-12-29 Thread rosinfiorini

Hi Thomas, in the site i gave link there are a few german pieces (probably =
you saw some).
In the book however i've got only works by what they call 'trobadors' (trou=
badours)--they=20
are from here--Occitania. Probably they have a german equivalent but its no=
t covered in=20
this collection.
However, about name you search, Ulrich von Liechtenstein, i found this site=
 (if you don't know it already)
, it has no music but  it has loads of his writings--in old German:
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/germanica/Chronologie/13Jh/Liechtenstein/=
lie_intr.html
also, huge list of others(with years) from the same site:
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/germanica/Autoren/d_alpha.html
Hi Elias, here i send you a list of the composers that have more than ten s=
ongs in the book:
Raimon de Miraval
Rimbaut de Vacair=E0s(7)
Peirol
P=E8ire Vidal
Marcabrun(7)
Giraud Riqui=E8r
Gauselm Faudit
Folquet de Marselha
Bernard de Ventadorn
Berenguer de Palou
laters!
R




Hi,
>=20
> Looks like an interesting book. I'm searching for such things, especially
> ArsNova/early renaissance-composers like Ciconia, Dufay, Dunstable, Landi=
ni,
> Jacopo da Bologna, (they are all polyphonic though, mostly 3part) Cou=
ld
> you give me an index of the authors? Which authors are having 10 or more
> songs in it?
>=20
> Best,
>=20
> Elias
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-
> Von: rosinfiorini [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Dezember 2004 00:35
> An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: Thomas-medievale s.
>=20
>=20
> Hello Thomas,=3D20
> Here i have a huge book with virtually almost all known trobadors' works.
> It has more than fourty authors with their songs, and some have more=3D20
> than twenty songs.
> The songs are presented in the notation of the time (13-14 hundreds) , pa=
ra=3D
> llel
> with modern notation and text in the original ancient Occitan, German, En=
gl=3D
> ish
> and Spanish.
> For each song there is also a system of letters that defines the Form.
> This is a system of greek letters, latin letters and numbers.
> Covered Forms in this collection are:
>=20
> Laisse
> "Laissenstrophe"
> Retroencha
> Rondeau
> Virelai
> Balada
> Oda continua
> Can=3DE7on
> Can=3DE7on redonda
> Lai
> Estampida
> etc...
> If ever you think of some author or a song i can easilly scan it for you.
> Some of the songs are polyphonic, but not too often..
> take care
> R
> --
>=20
> Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr=3D20
>=20
>=20
> --
>=20
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>=20
>=20
>=20
--

Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr=20


--


Re: Instrument Sounding

2004-12-29 Thread Vance Wood
Correct--O'--Mundo, Oakland University it was.  You sound like someone who
was there.

Vance Wood.
- Original Message - 
From: "C Etter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: Instrument Sounding


> on 12/28/04 1:39 PM, Vance Wood at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Yes!! In the 70's there was a very active early music program headed by
> > Dr.Lyle Nordstrom.  There were probably a dozen Lute students.  Many
> > concerts (part of the curriculum), Crum horns, Recorders, Sackbuts,
Viola
> > DaGambas, Citterns and even an Orpharion.  Voice, Trios, Duets, Consort
> > groups.  It was a musical banquet for those into early music.
>
> Good heavens, sounds like Oakland U., N of Detroit?!?
>
> C. Etter
>
>




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List of surviving instruments

2004-12-29 Thread Gernot Hilger
Hello,
I remember a web database of surviving lutes and their museums, but I 
cannot find it anymore.

Could somebody please give me directions? Thank you
g



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


Re: Vio-print

2004-12-29 Thread Jon Murphy
Matt, thanks - you have just made my point.

To coin a phrase: One man's "dora' may be another man's "lino". My
introduction to the mandora came from the Ronn McFarlane Scot's Lute book.
Most of his pieces are from the Straloch Lute Book (1627-29) and the
Rowallen Lute Book (c. 1620). But there are others from the Skene Mandora
Book (c. 1615). (And that latter he got as microfilm from LSA, who seems to
call it Skine - I've looked it up as I want to get the original - but I'm
not sure what I'd do with microfilm, so I await the librarian's answer). It
gets more complicated, some of the "mandora" pieces he transcribes are in
lute tuning, but most are in a tuning from the Skene Book, and the
instrument is described as 5 courses.

So perhaps I'm right, the name of the instrument is not necessarily the
nature of the instrument. Names change over time and space (and as one moves
from one language to another). The ukelele is a vihuela da mano, except that
it isn't. The "My Dog Has Fleas" tuning is a guitar tuning with the 4th
course up an octave. It is generally played as a strummed/chorded
instrument.
> May I add that your obvious notion of what a mandora should be does not
> congrue with what it was in 18th century, namely 6c mandora (tuning:
> F-G-c-f-a-d', also G-A-d-g-b-e', with its 6th course retuning as
> required), aka calichone (bass tuning: C-D-G-c-e-a). Cf. Pietro

OK, there is only one absolute for stringed instruments and that is the
intervals between the open strings. The pitch may vary by the length (and
within limits one's choice).

All starting at the "bass", the intervals. Using the pitches above your
first 18th c. mandora (6 course); 1-4-4-3-4. Your second; 1-4-4-3-4. The
calichone is 1-4-4-3-4.
The 7 course lute is 1-4-4-3-4-4, and the guitar is 4-4-4-3-4. Do these
numbers look similar?

The mandora in the Skene Mandora Book (admittedly as interpreted by
McFarlane, I haven't seen the original facsimile yet) has a tuning of
4-5-4-5. (Choosing d" as the treble, as I have since that seems to be a
comfortable level for the VL of 36cm., that gives me d, g, d', g', d",

What can I say, nothing is absolute when it comes to naming. The Scot's
mandora of the Skene Mandora Book may have been a borrowed name from the
active cultural centers of Italy, a name lost in the wilderness of the
north.

I spent many years in NYC, I was born there and grew up in the culture. I'm
probably the only one on this list who has ridden the subway for a nickel. I
also spent many years living in the village (the green one, Greenwich
Village is a redundancy as the "wich" means village in the early language).
The point, never let the words define the substance. The music of
intabulation can be played on any instrument that is tuned to the same
intervals, but if one mandora has a different tuning than another the
intabulation is useless - and the Skene Book apparently uses two different
tunings. I rather like that 4-5-4-5 , it doesn't work well for three finger
chords, but it is great for melody with an easy open chord. Which makes one
wonder if the Skene Book was taking early instruments of the lute family and
backtracking into the music. The fuller chordings of the guitar (and I'm
convinced, but haven't tested, that the shift from the lute 4-4-3-4-4 to the
guitar 4-4-4-3-4 is a matter of the chord fingering - moving from the
historical melody instrument into the dual voice polyphony, and then to the
vertical harmony). No one could have been more enamored of an easy fingering
for the particular music than the real players.

Best, Jon





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Re: sarmaticae novae

2004-12-29 Thread Jon Murphy
Roman,

Thanks,

> Assuming the tuning in G: 7th should be an F, and I think the midi is in
> error there, will have to check.

With your indulgence I'll ask a bit more. ( I haven't played the midi yet,
don't want to be confused with the real sound while I work out my own
playing). I've converted the piece (Cantio Sarmantica XVI) into modern
score, partly as I wanted to try it on the harp and partly in order to
intabulate it for my "chandora" (yes, I could go directly, but by going to
score I can set the pitch (key) for the best fingering by using the interim
step. Turns out it is, as written, in G minor with a G tuning.

I think the tab may be "wrong/ misleading" in the 17th measure. If I assume
the "/a" to be one whole tone below the 7th course (which on the G tuning is
F), then the "a" below the tabulation is an F and the "/a" an Eb. That
doesn't fit the sense of the music. (Remember that the treatment of the 7th
course depends on its tuning). The result of that for that measure is a low
Eb combined with a C, and the next pair of notes is a low F and a D, then a
low C and an E. I think that what is probably intended is the open fifth of
F/C (which would match the "a" for the 7th course), then G/D (which would be
the "a" on the sixth course, rather than "below the line", then the open
third (as it is entabulated).

I think there is an error in the intabulation in that 17th measure. I think
it should be the "d" on the 3rd course (as it is) combined with the open 7th
course (as in "a" below the line), then an "a" (open) second course with an
"a" (open) on the bottom line. That would fit the piece, making an open
(extended, if you prefer - I hate to speak of 12ths, etc, as harmonically
they all come back to the intervals within the octave).

I don't really mean error, just that the tuning may be different. That
closing measure seems to want the parallel open fifths, then the open third,
then the "tickle" into the final G octave open chord, and that finial low G
bump.

Should anyone like this piece in staff notation I'll scan my crossover
transliteration (not well laid out, had to fit it on three unit paper ( two
staves and one tab staff, as downloaded from LSA). I'm going to fit the
piece to my chandora.

Best, Jon



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