[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
God question, Anthony. In absence of any evidence anywhere of making thumb picks for lutes,, I would highly doubt that this was done. ed At 08:46 AM 2/8/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? MH Edward Martin wrote: Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. ed .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on the old lute he found in the attic.. MH Edward Martin wrote: Dear ones, I have an interesting story. Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Dalla Casa, mid 18thC seems to use something like this MH Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jaroslaw Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings. Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is mention (or a painting) of a thumb or finger attachment for playing theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear. Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the theorbo tuning mentioned by Baron? Are Vidar Boye Hansen Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, JarosÅaw Lipski a écrit : Anthony, Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low tension and rather low string action in the place where the right hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-) Best wishes Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ sharktoothpickproducts.html They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg www.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Jaroslaw Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings. Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is mention (or a painting) of a thumb or finger attachment for playing theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear. Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the theorbo tuning mentioned by Baron? Are Vidar Boye Hansen Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Anthony, Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low tension and rather low string action in the place where the right hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-) Best wishes Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ sharktoothpickproducts.html They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:57:24 + (GMT) From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought To: Rob Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu I agree, but would the strumming be so hard as to leave such marks? This is why I suggest some sort of ham -fisted guitarist! In 1890, say, not so much respect would have been had for such an instrument except in specialist and antiquarian circles. OI really don't know the reason for such extreme marks as Ed Martin describes and am only trying to suggest possibilities. What I find hard to accept is that an 18th century player, knowing the renown fragility of lutes, would have been so brutal. Of course, it may just have been kids having fun in the castle attic Martyn Martyn Rob Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We musn't forget that strumming is not unknown on the lute, 11c lutes at least. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? MH Edward Martin wrote: Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. ed .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on the old lute he found in the attic.. MH Edward Martin wrote: Dear ones, I have an interesting story. Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in 1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew. What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented that these lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It appeared to me that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy usage, so it was more than likely played at a professional level. One player played near the bridge, due to smudge dirt marks from the fingers, as well as the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One player played close to the rose , and
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? MH Edward Martin wrote: Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. ed .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on the old lute he found in the attic.. MH Edward Martin wrote: Dear ones, I have an interesting story. Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in 1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's eye maple,
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. ed .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on the old lute he found in the attic.. MH Edward Martin wrote: Dear ones, I have an interesting story. Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in 1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew. What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented that these lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It appeared to me that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy usage, so it was more than likely played at a professional level. One player played near the bridge, due to smudge dirt marks from the fingers, as well as the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular instrument, there were more than one player using very different techniques. As well, they played a technique with the thumb pointed towards the rose, as the old paintings show, but _NOT_ by the bridge. The longer lute in yew showed patterns and evidence of it being played very close to the bridge. The little area at the treble end of the bridge was worn down from overuse of the pinky being planted there. It seems that these lutes, although in possession by the same family in the same castle, are similar in that they are both Edlinger conversions to 13 course baroque lutes with bass riders. They do appear to have had dissimilar techniques and player positions, as evidenced by the wear on the sound boards, suggesting that the same player did not play the 2 instruments, and the shorter one had at least 2 different players. All in all, in was a humbling experience, to examine these masterpieces, so close up, and to hold them in playing position. The marks I mentioned on the shorter instrument do not show up well on photography, but are very open obvious to the naked eye. ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1261 - Release Date: 2/5/2008 8:57 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Sent from http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51949/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.htmlYahoo! - a smarter inbox. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1263 - Release Date: 2/6/2008 8:14 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota
Anthony, and all, I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations. There are many, many possibilities. We do not know if the original lutes were bass lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if they were actually new lutes by Edlinger. The evidence seems to point to them being old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger. It is undetermined, but it appears that if they are from the renaissance, that they are probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin. Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem. When he did the 13 course conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes attractive, as he had great skills. All he would have to do is simply sand the top a little to make all those ugly scratches go away. It makes no sense to go to the trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will multiple scratch marks.. that would be silly. The scratches are from after the conversion. No, all the sets of marks are both make by 13 course players, and they were made after the conversion. The nail like scratches were made using an interesting technique the thumb marks are close to the rose, where the finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which matches a technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb sticking out quite sharply towards the neck. No, this was not in any way renaissance technique; as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses that are on the lute now. The evidence of the other technique on that lute also suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck. Thanks! ed At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the Edlinger lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then baroqued bt Edlinger, but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger. http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html However, I can't help wondering whether you are not right in returning to the previous interpretation: the double traces, you mention, could well indicate that this was indeed a Renaissance lute, on which Renaissance traces were left when it was later baroqued by Edlinger, and then after that the Baroque technique traces might have been left. One player played near the bridge, due to smudge dirt marks from the fingers, as well as the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular instrument, there were more than one player using very different techniques. Ed This sounds very much like a Renaissance technique. In a previous message, I had wondered whether any such Renaissance traces might not exist on a Baroque lute that might have kept its Renaissance sound board. I imagine it would be difficult to analyse these lutes to see how old the soundboards are. Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota
Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface scratches, they could have been erased. As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but deep. However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the strings right up to the diapasons. One player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the neck, on all the diapason courses! Do you mean that the scratches near the diapasons might be from a thumb nail? In other words, would the player have had long nails on fingers and thumb? It almost sounds as though the player might have had something attached to his fingers (like some blues players do). You say one lute is 76 cm, the other 81 cm. I assume you are speaking of the total length. Do you have any idea of the actual string length? Sorry not to close the can of worms, but this sort of detail is not so easy to come by. Regards Anthony Le 6 févr. 08 à 12:57, Edward Martin a écrit : Anthony, and all, I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations. There are many, many possibilities. We do not know if the original lutes were bass lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if they were actually new lutes by Edlinger. The evidence seems to point to them being old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger. It is undetermined, but it appears that if they are from the renaissance, that they are probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin. Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem. When he did the 13 course conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes attractive, as he had great skills. All he would have to do is simply sand the top a little to make all those ugly scratches go away. It makes no sense to go to the trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will multiple scratch marks.. that would be silly. The scratches are from after the conversion. No, all the sets of marks are both make by 13 course players, and they were made after the conversion. The nail like scratches were made using an interesting technique the thumb marks are close to the rose, where the finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which matches a technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb sticking out quite sharply towards the neck. No, this was not in any way renaissance technique; as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses that are on the lute now. The evidence of the other technique on that lute also suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck. Thanks! ed At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the Edlinger lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then baroqued bt Edlinger, but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger. http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html However, I can't help wondering whether you are not right in returning to the previous interpretation: the double traces, you mention, could well indicate that this was indeed a Renaissance lute, on which Renaissance traces were left when it was later baroqued by Edlinger, and then after that the Baroque technique traces might have been left. One player played near the bridge, due to smudge dirt marks from the fingers, as well as the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular instrument, there were more than one player using very different techniques. Ed This sounds very much like a Renaissance technique. In a previous message, I had wondered whether any such Renaissance traces might not exist on a Baroque lute that might have kept its Renaissance sound board. I imagine it would be difficult to analyse these lutes to see how old the soundboards are. Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota
At 01:40 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface scratches, they could have been erased. As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but deep. However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the strings right up to the diapasons. One player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the neck, on all the diapason courses! Do you mean that the scratches near the diapasons might be from a thumb nail? Yes. In other words, would the player have had long nails on fingers and thumb? Yes, definitely, for the thumb. It almost sounds as though the player might have had something attached to his fingers (like some blues players do). I doubt that but who knows? You say one lute is 76 cm, the other 81 cm. I assume you are speaking of the total length. Do you have any idea of the actual string length? Those ARE the string lengths. 76 and 81 or 82 cm. HUGE baroque lutes! They would have had to been tuned at a much lower pitch than f at 415. Sorry not to close the can of worms, but this sort of detail is not so easy to come by. Regards Anthony Le 6 févr. 08 à 12:57, Edward Martin a écrit : Anthony, and all, I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations. There are many, many possibilities. We do not know if the original lutes were bass lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if they were actually new lutes by Edlinger. The evidence seems to point to them being old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger. It is undetermined, but it appears that if they are from the renaissance, that they are probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin. Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem. When he did the 13 course conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes attractive, as he had great skills. All he would have to do is simply sand the top a little to make all those ugly scratches go away. It makes no sense to go to the trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will multiple scratch marks.. that would be silly. The scratches are from after the conversion. No, all the sets of marks are both make by 13 course players, and they were made after the conversion. The nail like scratches were made using an interesting technique the thumb marks are close to the rose, where the finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which matches a technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb sticking out quite sharply towards the neck. No, this was not in any way renaissance technique; as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses that are on the lute now. The evidence of the other technique on that lute also suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck. Thanks! ed At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the Edlinger lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then baroqued bt Edlinger, but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger. http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html However, I can't help wondering whether you are not right in returning to the previous interpretation: the double traces, you mention, could well indicate that this was indeed a Renaissance lute, on which Renaissance traces were left when it was later baroqued by Edlinger, and then after that the Baroque technique traces might have been left. One player played near the bridge, due to smudge dirt marks from the fingers, as well as the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular instrument, there were more than one player using very different techniques. Ed This sounds very much like a Renaissance technique. In a previous message, I had wondered whether any such Renaissance traces might not exist on a Baroque lute that might have kept its Renaissance sound board. I imagine it would be difficult to analyse these lutes to see how old the soundboards are. Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1261 - Release Date: 2/5/2008 8:57 PM Edward Martin 2817 East
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota
Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. ed .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on the old lute he found in the attic.. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear ones, I have an interesting story. Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in 1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew. What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented that these lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It appeared to me that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy usage, so it was more than likely played at a professional level. One player played near the bridge, due to smudge dirt marks from the fingers, as well as the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular instrument, there were more than one player using very different techniques. As well, they played a technique with the thumb pointed towards the rose, as the old paintings show, but _NOT_ by the bridge. The longer lute in yew showed patterns and evidence of it being played very close to the bridge. The little area at the treble end of the bridge was worn down from overuse of the pinky being planted there. It seems that these lutes, although in possession by the same family in the same castle, are similar in that they are both Edlinger conversions to 13 course baroque lutes with bass riders. They do appear to have had dissimilar techniques and player positions, as evidenced by the wear on the sound boards, suggesting that the same player did not play the 2 instruments, and the shorter one had at least 2 different players. All in all, in was a humbling experience, to examine these masterpieces, so close up, and to hold them in playing position. The marks I mentioned on the shorter instrument do not show up well on photography, but are very open obvious to the naked eye. ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Sent from http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51949/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.htmlYahoo! - a smarter inbox. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1261 - Release Date: 2/5/2008 8:57 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota
Great question. The answer is simple. It would have been strung with a standard treble, in the usual fashion. I have not worked out what the top pitch would be - certainly _not_ f at 415, but perhaps at d at 415. The whole instrument would have been about a minor third lower, so the lowest course would have been around F, not A. Keep in mind, these are 13 course baroque lutes with first 2nd course single, then courses 12 13 on bass riders. To me, this leans in favor of tuning the top string as high as it goes, and not concerning where f is. ed At 04:00 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: Ed What sort of treble string could support 81cm? I am amazed. Anthony Le 6 févr. 08 à 14:08, Edward Martin a écrit : At 01:40 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface scratches, they could have been erased. As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but deep. However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the strings right up to the diapasons. One player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the neck, on all the diapason courses! Do you mean that the scratches near the diapasons might be from a thumb nail? Yes. In other words, would the player have had long nails on fingers and thumb? Yes, definitely, for the thumb. It almost sounds as though the player might have had something attached to his fingers (like some blues players do). I doubt that but who knows? You say one lute is 76 cm, the other 81 cm. I assume you are speaking of the total length. Do you have any idea of the actual string length? Those ARE the string lengths. 76 and 81 or 82 cm. HUGE baroque lutes! They would have had to been tuned at a much lower pitch than f at 415. Sorry not to close the can of worms, but this sort of detail is not so easy to come by. Regards Anthony Le 6 févr. 08 à 12:57, Edward Martin a écrit : Anthony, and all, I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations. There are many, many possibilities. We do not know if the original lutes were bass lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if they were actually new lutes by Edlinger. The evidence seems to point to them being old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger. It is undetermined, but it appears that if they are from the renaissance, that they are probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin. Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem. When he did the 13 course conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes attractive, as he had great skills. All he would have to do is simply sand the top a little to make all those ugly scratches go away. It makes no sense to go to the trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will multiple scratch marks.. that would be silly. The scratches are from after the conversion. No, all the sets of marks are both make by 13 course players, and they were made after the conversion. The nail like scratches were made using an interesting technique the thumb marks are close to the rose, where the finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which matches a technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb sticking out quite sharply towards the neck. No, this was not in any way renaissance technique; as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses that are on the lute now. The evidence of the other technique on that lute also suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck. Thanks! ed At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the Edlinger lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then baroqued bt Edlinger, but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger. http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html However, I can't help wondering whether you are not right in returning to the previous interpretation: the double traces, you mention, could well indicate that this was indeed a Renaissance lute, on which Renaissance traces were left when it was later baroqued by Edlinger, and then after that the Baroque technique traces might have been left. One player played near the bridge, due to smudge dirt marks from the fingers, as well as the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular instrument, there were more than one player using very
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota
Amen. ed At 04:29 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: I am also struck by the small number of lutes that actually are copied now; and when we think that extant lutes are such a small number of the great variety that once existed, I can't help thinking that this is further restricting the wide tonal variety that once must have existed. Anthony Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota
I really do not know. It is possible that it could have been in that tuning. These instruments were in the possession of a noble family, and it is not known if the family members played them, or if they had professional musicians on staff. Obviously big baroque lutes were built by Edlinger, but we have more questions than answers. At 12:59 AM 2/7/2008 +0100, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote: Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the theorbo tuning mentioned by Baron? Are Great question. The answer is simple. It would have been strung with a standard treble, in the usual fashion. I have not worked out what the top pitch would be - certainly _not_ f at 415, but perhaps at d at 415. The whole instrument would have been about a minor third lower, so the lowest course would have been around F, not A. Keep in mind, these are 13 course baroque lutes with first 2nd course single, then courses 12 13 on bass riders. To me, this leans in favor of tuning the top string as high as it goes, and not concerning where f is. ed At 04:00 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: Ed What sort of treble string could support 81cm? I am amazed. Anthony Le 6 févr. 08 à 14:08, Edward Martin a écrit : At 01:40 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface scratches, they could have been erased. As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but deep. However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the strings right up to the diapasons. One player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the neck, on all the diapason courses! Do you mean that the scratches near the diapasons might be from a thumb nail? Yes. In other words, would the player have had long nails on fingers and thumb? Yes, definitely, for the thumb. It almost sounds as though the player might have had something attached to his fingers (like some blues players do). I doubt that but who knows? You say one lute is 76 cm, the other 81 cm. I assume you are speaking of the total length. Do you have any idea of the actual string length? Those ARE the string lengths. 76 and 81 or 82 cm. HUGE baroque lutes! They would have had to been tuned at a much lower pitch than f at 415. Sorry not to close the can of worms, but this sort of detail is not so easy to come by. Regards Anthony Le 6 févr. 08 à 12:57, Edward Martin a écrit : Anthony, and all, I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations. There are many, many possibilities. We do not know if the original lutes were bass lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if they were actually new lutes by Edlinger. The evidence seems to point to them being old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger. It is undetermined, but it appears that if they are from the renaissance, that they are probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin. Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem. When he did the 13 course conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes attractive, as he had great skills. All he would have to do is simply sand the top a little to make all those ugly scratches go away. It makes no sense to go to the trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will multiple scratch marks.. that would be silly. The scratches are from after the conversion. No, all the sets of marks are both make by 13 course players, and they were made after the conversion. The nail like scratches were made using an interesting technique the thumb marks are close to the rose, where the finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which matches a technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb sticking out quite sharply towards the neck. No, this was not in any way renaissance technique; as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses that are on the lute now. The evidence of the other technique on that lute also suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck. Thanks! ed At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the Edlinger lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then baroqued bt Edlinger, but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger. http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html However, I can't help wondering whether you are not right in returning to the previous interpretation: the double traces, you mention, could well indicate that this was indeed a Renaissance lute, on which Renaissance traces were left when it was later baroqued by Edlinger, and then after that the Baroque technique traces might have been left. One player
