[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
Dear all, Talking about baroque mandolins: Last year I played Vivaldi's oratorio Juditha Triumphans with the Venice Baroque Orchestra. There is an aria with a mandolin solo. The concert at the Concertgebouw Hall in Amsterdam was broadcasted live for the Dutch Television channel CULTURA and someone placed it on youtube. On this video you can listen to the mandolin aria (Transit aetas): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqfpYO8_j5w There is also an aria (O servi volate) with 4 THEORBOS (obligato): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA4EoGHmX7A (We are 4 bold lute players!!) These are not lute-mandolin related but very nice to listen to (still many lutes as continuo): Armatae face (after the recitative it gets really interesting!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLfL9szlgMs Arma, caedes, vindictae: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU126YcSHEc Gaude felix : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ius18luTA Matrona Inimica: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRhfwDM8v0k On May 27, 2010, at 11:21 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Stuart Walsh wrote: I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. Nails? Stuart Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. Best, Eugene - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin To: davide.rebuffa davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear Davide, Thank you for your comments! I still think we can not be so sure about certain things because we don't have much
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
I forgot to mention that the name of the mandolin player is Mauro Squillante. Here is the video again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqfpYO8_j5w On May 27, 2010, at 11:21 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Stuart Walsh wrote: I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. Nails? Stuart Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. Best, Eugene - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin To: davide.rebuffa davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear Davide, Thank you for your comments! I still think we can not be so sure about certain things because we don't have much evidence. - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it could be played with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in operas? It is possible to play with a quill... I know about some paintings which show the finger technique (all in all we don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture (English) where there seems to be a kind of plectrum. But it is an anonymous picture without any year. Also I have seen a still life by Baschenis where there is a quill and I don't believe that the violin, the harp or the lute on this picture is played with it... I can't say that I have much experience of comparing the loudness
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
Not being a mandolino player I hope you don't object to me intruding and commenting on Timmerman's (fine) performance and the volume he generates from the instrument. Of course, since the piece is recorded we have no real means of knowing the volume - for all I know it could be as loud as a modern grand piano or as soft as a small clavichord. One thing did occur to me though: I sensed he employed a fairly low string tension (especially noticeable in the trills and the like). I don't know what tension you mandolino players would normally expect to use on this sort of instrument (string length 30cm?) but by analogy with lutes I'd automatically be looking at something around 1.5Kg/Newtons. Is there historical evidence of the string tension on these instruments? yours enquiringly Martyn --- On Thu, 27/5/10, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin To: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu Cc: 'Susanne Herre' mandolinens...@web.de, 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 27 May, 2010, 22:21 Stuart Walsh wrote: I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. Nails? Stuart Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
Alfonso Marin wrote: Dear all, Talking about baroque mandolins: Last year I played Vivaldi's oratorio Juditha Triumphans with the Venice Baroque Orchestra. There is an aria with a mandolin solo. The concert at the Concertgebouw Hall in Amsterdam was broadcasted live for the Dutch Television channel CULTURA and someone placed it on youtube. On this video you can listen to the mandolin aria (Transit aetas): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqfpYO8_j5w Very fine and sensitive playing (and singing, of course). But you are playing with a plectrum, not fingerstyle? The related videos on this youtube page brought this up, which is punteado, but not mandolin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdb3vLJuZk8feature=related The director chooses the camera with a close-up of the pizzicato violin far too much! But the mandolin part is played on a Baroque guitar with a capo. The guitarist seems to be using the thumb a lot. Is it p-i for scalar passges? Or is it a re-entrant arrangement (thumb on the lower strings but playing an octave higher.) Anyway, sounds nice too. Stuart There is also an aria (O servi volate) with 4 THEORBOS (obligato): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA4EoGHmX7A (We are 4 bold lute players!!) These are not lute-mandolin related but very nice to listen to (still many lutes as continuo): Armatae face (after the recitative it gets really interesting!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLfL9szlgMs Arma, caedes, vindictae: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU126YcSHEc Gaude felix : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ius18luTA Matrona Inimica: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRhfwDM8v0k On May 27, 2010, at 11:21 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Stuart Walsh wrote: I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. Nails? Stuart Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
Alfonso Marin wrote: Dear Stuart, I am not the mandolin player. He is called Mauro Squillante and indeed he plays with a plectrum. I was playing the archlute (not in this aria of course) Greetings, Alfonso My apologies, Alfonso. Stuart On May 28, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Alfonso Marin wrote: Dear all, Talking about baroque mandolins: Last year I played Vivaldi's oratorio Juditha Triumphans with the Venice Baroque Orchestra. There is an aria with a mandolin solo. The concert at the Concertgebouw Hall in Amsterdam was broadcasted live for the Dutch Television channel CULTURA and someone placed it on youtube. On this video you can listen to the mandolin aria (Transit aetas): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqfpYO8_j5w Very fine and sensitive playing (and singing, of course). But you are playing with a plectrum, not fingerstyle? The related videos on this youtube page brought this up, which is punteado, but not mandolin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdb3vLJuZk8feature=related The director chooses the camera with a close-up of the pizzicato violin far too much! But the mandolin part is played on a Baroque guitar with a capo. The guitarist seems to be using the thumb a lot. Is it p-i for scalar passges? Or is it a re-entrant arrangement (thumb on the lower strings but playing an octave higher.) Anyway, sounds nice too. Stuart There is also an aria (O servi volate) with 4 THEORBOS (obligato): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA4EoGHmX7A (We are 4 bold lute players!!) These are not lute-mandolin related but very nice to listen to (still many lutes as continuo): Armatae face (after the recitative it gets really interesting!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLfL9szlgMs Arma, caedes, vindictae: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU126YcSHEc Gaude felix : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ius18luTA Matrona Inimica: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRhfwDM8v0k On May 27, 2010, at 11:21 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Stuart Walsh wrote: I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. Nails? Stuart Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
Thanks for sharing. Who made yours? What do you use as a plectrum? Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Alfonso Marin Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 4:00 AM To: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Dear all, Talking about baroque mandolins: Last year I played Vivaldi's oratorio Juditha Triumphans with the Venice Baroque Orchestra. There is an aria with a mandolin solo. The concert at the Concertgebouw Hall in Amsterdam was broadcasted live for the Dutch Television channel CULTURA and someone placed it on youtube. On this video you can listen to the mandolin aria (Transit aetas): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqfpYO8_j5w There is also an aria (O servi volate) with 4 THEORBOS (obligato): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA4EoGHmX7A (We are 4 bold lute players!!) These are not lute-mandolin related but very nice to listen to (still many lutes as continuo): Armatae face (after the recitative it gets really interesting!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLfL9szlgMs Arma, caedes, vindictae: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU126YcSHEc Gaude felix : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ius18luTA Matrona Inimica: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRhfwDM8v0k On May 27, 2010, at 11:21 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Stuart Walsh wrote: I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. Nails? Stuart Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. Best, Eugene - Original Message - From
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
..Or do you know what he uses as a plectrum? Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Alfonso Marin Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 4:16 AM To: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin I forgot to mention that the name of the mandolin player is Mauro Squillante. Here is the video again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqfpYO8_j5w On May 27, 2010, at 11:21 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Stuart Walsh wrote: I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. Nails? Stuart Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. Best, Eugene - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin To: davide.rebuffa davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear Davide, Thank you for your comments! I still think we can not be so sure about certain things because we don't have much evidence. - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it could be played with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in operas? It is possible to play with a quill... I know about some paintings which show the finger technique (all in all we don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture (English) where
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
Somewhere there is a catalogue of strings intended for shipment to Vivaldi's famous Ospedale della Piet`a. I don't remember the level of detail, but do remember it lists strings for mandolin. I think I have a transcription of that document someplace, but am not certain. I'll keep my eye open. If anybody else has it, feel free to weigh in. It's hard to find modern gut that functions very well below 0.4 mm diameter. With string lengths typically around 31-34 cm, depending upon pitch, I would expect the g'' strings to be pretty substantially higher in tension. Right now, I have carbon g'' strings on mine (technically, P-Line CFX flourocarbon fly fishing leader material) at 0.32 mm. Because of limitations of the strings themselves, the g'' usually clocks ca. 4 kg. I go to ca. 3 kg on the others. Best, Eugene ___ From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 4:23 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; Stuart Walsh Cc: 'Susanne Herre'; 'Lute List' Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Not being a mandolino player I hope you don't object to me intruding and commenting on Timmerman's (fine) performance and the volume he generates from the instrument. Of course, since the piece is recorded we have no real means of knowing the volume - for all I know it could be as loud as a modern grand piano or as soft as a small clavichord. One thing did occur to me though: I sensed he employed a fairly low string tension (especially noticeable in the trills and the like). I don't know what tension you mandolino players would normally expect to use on this sort of instrument (string length 30cm?) but by analogy with lutes I'd automatically be looking at something around 1.5Kg/Newtons. Is there historical evidence of the string tension on these instruments? yours enquiringly Martyn --- On Thu, 27/5/10, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin To: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu Cc: 'Susanne Herre' mandolinens...@web.de, 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 27 May, 2010, 22:21 Stuart Walsh wrote: I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. Nails? Stuart Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
Hey, mandolinists have little enough music! Tell that guitarist to give it back! Semi-kiddingly, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 5:12 AM To: Alfonso Marin Cc: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Alfonso Marin wrote: Dear all, Talking about baroque mandolins: Last year I played Vivaldi's oratorio Juditha Triumphans with the Venice Baroque Orchestra. There is an aria with a mandolin solo. The concert at the Concertgebouw Hall in Amsterdam was broadcasted live for the Dutch Television channel CULTURA and someone placed it on youtube. On this video you can listen to the mandolin aria (Transit aetas): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqfpYO8_j5w Very fine and sensitive playing (and singing, of course). But you are playing with a plectrum, not fingerstyle? The related videos on this youtube page brought this up, which is punteado, but not mandolin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdb3vLJuZk8feature=related The director chooses the camera with a close-up of the pizzicato violin far too much! But the mandolin part is played on a Baroque guitar with a capo. The guitarist seems to be using the thumb a lot. Is it p-i for scalar passges? Or is it a re-entrant arrangement (thumb on the lower strings but playing an octave higher.) Anyway, sounds nice too. Stuart There is also an aria (O servi volate) with 4 THEORBOS (obligato): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA4EoGHmX7A (We are 4 bold lute players!!) These are not lute-mandolin related but very nice to listen to (still many lutes as continuo): Armatae face (after the recitative it gets really interesting!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLfL9szlgMs Arma, caedes, vindictae: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU126YcSHEc Gaude felix : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ius18luTA Matrona Inimica: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRhfwDM8v0k On May 27, 2010, at 11:21 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Stuart Walsh wrote: I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. Nails? Stuart Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
Dear Eugene, Thank you for this. Not being at all familiar with the mandolino, I was unaware of, what to my mind, seems such high tension (4Kg) being normally employed on the finger plucked instrument of only around 32cm string length. No wonder someone remarked about 'iron bars'. Did this sort of tension emerge by working back from the later metal strung/bent belly neopolitan mandolin tensions or was there some other (historical) source you mandolino players consulted. Clearly the Ospedale's strings look a very good line of enquiry. Generally the desirable string tension on the lute seems to relate to string length so that bigger instruments of the same type (eg 7 course lutes) mostly require higher tensions. Dowland, for example, tells us that bigger lutes need thicker strings. Of course, there's some latitude and it seems that lute tensions probably went down with an increase in the number of courses around 1600 (perhaps to keep the instrument from collapsing), which in turn required a closer to the bridge plucking position - but all this is another, and well rehearsed, story. What I was wanting to suggest is that a lower string tension might well be worth exploring on the small mandolino to, paradoxically, achieve more volume from finger plucking. I'm aware of the suggestion that 0.4mm is the thinnest gut historically possible but I'm not so sure how safe an assumption it is (perhaps for whole guts - but cannot they be split?). What if, for a test, you tried nylon 0.30mm on the first (if it's still available) and the rest accordingly? Yours even more intrigued Martyn --- On Fri, 28/5/10, Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu wrote: From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin To: 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 May, 2010, 15:45 Somewhere there is a catalogue of strings intended for shipment to Vivaldi's famous Ospedale della Piet`a. I don't remember the level of detail, but do remember it lists strings for mandolin. I think I have a transcription of that document someplace, but am not certain. I'll keep my eye open. If anybody else has it, feel free to weigh in. It's hard to find modern gut that functions very well below 0.4 mm diameter. With string lengths typically around 31-34 cm, depending upon pitch, I would expect the g'' strings to be pretty substantially higher in tension. Right now, I have carbon g'' strings on mine (technically, P-Line CFX flourocarbon fly fishing leader material) at 0.32 mm. Because of limitations of the strings themselves, the g'' usually clocks ca. 4 kg. I go to ca. 3 kg on the others. Best, Eugene ___ From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 4:23 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; Stuart Walsh Cc: 'Susanne Herre'; 'Lute List' Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Not being a mandolino player I hope you don't object to me intruding and commenting on Timmerman's (fine) performance and the volume he generates from the instrument. Of course, since the piece is recorded we have no real means of knowing the volume - for all I know it could be as loud as a modern grand piano or as soft as a small clavichord. One thing did occur to me though: I sensed he employed a fairly low string tension (especially noticeable in the trills and the like). I don't know what tension you mandolino players would normally expect to use on this sort of instrument (string length 30cm?) but by analogy with lutes I'd automatically be looking at something around 1.5Kg/Newtons. Is there historical evidence of the string tension on these instruments? yours enquiringly Martyn [2]. -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
Correction: With the high course at ca. 0.5 mm and e'' on early Neapolitans and ca. 0.4 mm and g'' on 4th-tuned mandolini, the difference in tension approaches negligible. If anything, the tension on recent use of early Neapolitan mandolins may have been informed by what was possible with the finest available gut on 4th-tuned mandolini. Although by the time of Neapolitan mandolins, there are references in early methods to standard gauges of harpsichord string for use on the a' course. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Eugene C. Braig IV Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:21 PM To: 'Martyn Hodgson'; 'Lute List' Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Greetings Martyn, Of course, more lute-like mandolins comfortably predate wire-strung mandolins historically. I dont think modern mandolin tension had any influence on the recent semi-resurgence of early mandolin types. On typical modern Neapolitan mandolins, tension on e'' around 6+ kg is pretty common. Archtop mandolins will range up to 10 or so. Early Neapolitan types often use gut e'' strings around 0.5 mm at similar scale lengths to 4th-tuned mandolins, thus are strung just a little heavier than 4th-tuned mandolins, but still much lighter than fully wire-strung modern mandolins. Also of course, classical guitars are strung as high as 7 or even 8+ kg, even in gut. Whatever might have been historically available, I really think the typical modern tension of 4th-tuned mandolini is simply dictated by the availability of finest functional gut now. I've never tried splitting a string, don't know that I'd trust myself to do so. However, 0.4 mm tends to fray very quickly as is. Tension certainly has some play in the fraying of gut fibers, but so does abrasion from the fingers or any contact with nail, and if you apply quill, fraying could be accelerated. I think a player could eat through gut of less than 0.4 mm very quickly. That's why I ordinarily keep carbon on the highest course or two. Best, Eugene From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 11:45 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Dear Eugene, Thank you for this. Not being at all familiar with the mandolino, I was unaware of, what to my mind, seems such high tension (4Kg) being normally employed on the finger plucked instrument of only around 32cm string length. No wonder someone remarked about 'iron bars'. Did this sort of tension emerge by working back from the later metal strung/bent belly neopolitan mandolin tensions or was there some other (historical) source you mandolino players consulted. Clearly the Ospedale's strings look a very good line of enquiry. Generally the desirable string tension on the lute seems to relate to string length so that bigger instruments of the same type (eg 7 course lutes) mostly require higher tensions. Dowland, for example, tells us that bigger lutes need thicker strings. Of course, there's some latitude and it seems that lute tensions probably went down with an increase in the number of courses around 1600 (perhaps to keep the instrument from collapsing), which in turn required a closer to the bridge plucking position - but all this is another, and well rehearsed, story. What I was wanting to suggest is that a lower string tension might well be worth exploring on the small mandolino to, paradoxically, achieve more volume from finger plucking. I'm aware of the suggestion that 0.4mm is the thinnest gut historically possible but I'm not so sure how safe an assumption it is (perhaps for whole guts - but cannot they be split?). What if, for a test, you tried nylon 0.30mm on the first (if it's still available) and the rest accordingly? Yours even more intrigued Martyn --- On Fri, 28/5/10, Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu wrote: From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin To: 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 May, 2010, 15:45 Somewhere there is a catalogue of strings intended for shipment to Vivaldi's famous Ospedale della Piet`a. I don't remember the level of detail, but do remember it lists strings for mandolin. I think I have a transcription of that document someplace, but am not certain. I'll keep my eye open. If anybody else has it, feel free to weigh in. It's hard to find modern gut that functions very well below 0.4 mm diameter. With string lengths typically around 31-34 cm, depending upon pitch, I would expect the g'' strings to be pretty substantially higher in tension. Right now, I have carbon g'' strings on mine (technically, P-Line CFX flourocarbon fly fishing leader material) at 0.32 mm. Because
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
Stuart Walsh wrote: I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. Nails? Stuart Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. Best, Eugene - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin To: davide.rebuffa davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear Davide, Thank you for your comments! I still think we can not be so sure about certain things because we don't have much evidence. - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it could be played with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in operas? It is possible to play with a quill... I know about some paintings which show the finger technique (all in all we don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture (English) where there seems to be a kind of plectrum. But it is an anonymous picture without any year. Also I have seen a still life by Baschenis where there is a quill and I don't believe that the violin, the harp or the lute on this picture is played with it... I can't say that I have much experience of comparing the loudness of different playing techniques with an audience. This maybe also depends on different acoustics (as I would use different bows in different concert rooms) But I think you get a brighter sound with a quill amd then the sound
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin (with link!)
Stuart Walsh wrote: Stuart Walsh wrote: I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. Nails? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SYZ8L2aLww Stuart Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. Best, Eugene - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin To: davide.rebuffa davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear Davide, Thank you for your comments! I still think we can not be so sure about certain things because we don't have much evidence. - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it could be played with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in operas? It is possible to play with a quill... I know about some paintings which show the finger technique (all in all we don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture (English) where there seems to be a kind of plectrum. But it is an anonymous picture without any year. Also I have seen a still life by Baschenis where there is a quill and I don't believe that the violin, the harp or the lute on this picture is played with it... I can't say that I have much experience of comparing the loudness of different playing techniques with an audience. This maybe also depends on different acoustics (as I would use different bows in different concert rooms
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin (with link!)
Indeed. I had linked that clip in my rant on such instruments several months ago. I play the same, but use a whole lot more thumb in scalar passages. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 5:23 PM Cc: Eugene C. Braig IV; 'Susanne Herre'; 'Lute List' Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin (with link!) Stuart Walsh wrote: Stuart Walsh wrote: I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. Nails? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SYZ8L2aLww Stuart Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. Best, Eugene - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin To: davide.rebuffa davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear Davide, Thank you for your comments! I still think we can not be so sure about certain things because we don't have much evidence. - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it could be played with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in operas? It is possible to play with a quill... I know about some paintings which show the finger technique (all
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
No, I'm not aware of any iconography showing mandolinists specifically engaged in the pit. However, what iconography there is of the era does seem to imply punteado play. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. Best, Eugene - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin To: davide.rebuffa davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear Davide, Thank you for your comments! I still think we can not be so sure about certain things because we don't have much evidence. - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it could be played with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in operas? It is possible to play with a quill... I know about some paintings which show the finger technique (all in all we don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture (English) where there seems to be a kind of plectrum. But it is an anonymous picture without any year. Also I have seen a still life by Baschenis where there is a quill and I don't believe that the violin, the harp or the lute on this picture is played with it... I can't say that I have much experience of comparing the loudness of different playing techniques with an audience. This maybe also depends on different acoustics (as I would use different bows in different concert rooms) But I think you get a brighter sound with a quill amd then the sound will maybe go easier to the listeners. But it is interesting to read about your experience! I didn't say that amteurs used finger techniques and who says that playing with fingers is more complex than playing with a quill? If you would like to do it very well it is both not easy... I was just considering that there were persons who maybe played the mandolin but not the lute or the theorbo. For the use of the quill I say it could be a possibility, maybe. It is just a theory as all is what we try to find out. I think in the 17th and 18th century there was such a diversity of things and not as much standarts as today that we would be surprised what is possible if we would have the chance to make a journey to the early times ; ) fingers: fast scales are more difficult, arpeggios more easy, sound is more smooth quill: arpeggio is more difficult, fast scales mire easy, sound is more bright So we try to use the advantages of the techniques
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
No, I'm not aware of any iconography showing mandolinists specifically engaged in the pit. However, what iconography there is of the era does seem to imply punteado play. Eugene I'm still very surprised that you and Davide can get a good, loud, full sound playing punteado from such a tiny instrument. It has always completely eluded me. I remember when James Tyler was championing the little instrument in the 1980s there was debate then over plectrum vs punteado. I seem to remember also that a famous lute-player recorded the Vivaldi (at that time) but on an instrument quite a bit bigger and chunkier than a typical mandolino. I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. Best, Eugene - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin To: davide.rebuffa davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear Davide, Thank you for your comments! I still think we can not be so sure about certain things because we don't have much evidence. - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it could be played with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in operas? It is possible to play with a quill... I know about some paintings which show the finger technique (all in all we don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture (English) where there seems to be a kind of plectrum. But it is an anonymous picture without any year. Also I have seen a still life by Baschenis where there is a quill and I don't believe that the violin, the harp or the lute on this picture
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
I will do my best to make a recording and post soon. Unfortunately, I will have to rely upon the hardware of others to do so at the moment. My volume certainly isn't diminished by quill use, the sound only less bassy and the playing more awkward. I REALLY prefer fingers on the instrument. In my case, the hard feel of the strings at that short scale is helped along by lightish contact from shortish nails. I also play as close to the bridge as the tiny soundbox allows. Of course, medieval gittern is not baroque mandolino, and the fact remains that iconographic evidence of plectrum application to mandolini in the baroque ranges from obviously to probably punteado (i.e., none at all). Those too few recordings I've listed to feature fingerstyle play (O'Dette on RV 82, 85, and 93; Tyler the Vivaldi mandolin works; Wedemeier on Hasse) I do think sound effective enough in ensemble. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Stuart Walsh [mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com] Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 2:10 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: 'Susanne Herre'; 'Lute List' Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin No, I'm not aware of any iconography showing mandolinists specifically engaged in the pit. However, what iconography there is of the era does seem to imply punteado play. Eugene I'm still very surprised that you and Davide can get a good, loud, full sound playing punteado from such a tiny instrument. It has always completely eluded me. I remember when James Tyler was championing the little instrument in the 1980s there was debate then over plectrum vs punteado. I seem to remember also that a famous lute-player recorded the Vivaldi (at that time) but on an instrument quite a bit bigger and chunkier than a typical mandolino. I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like early guitar or lute technique. )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing with plectra too.) So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that enables players to use punteado style successfully? I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other instruments?? Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin Thank you Eugene! Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin player at all? Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you play with your finger... Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens automatically, I made this experience as well. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) until they get only peripheral
[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography. I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. Best, Eugene - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin To: davide.rebuffa davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear Davide, Thank you for your comments! I still think we can not be so sure about certain things because we don't have much evidence. - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it could be played with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in operas? It is possible to play with a quill... I know about some paintings which show the finger technique (all in all we don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture (English) where there seems to be a kind of plectrum. But it is an anonymous picture without any year. Also I have seen a still life by Baschenis where there is a quill and I don't believe that the violin, the harp or the lute on this picture is played with it... I can't say that I have much experience of comparing the loudness of different playing techniques with an audience. This maybe also depends on different acoustics (as I would use different bows in different concert rooms) But I think you get a brighter sound with a quill amd then the sound will maybe go easier to the listeners. But it is interesting to read about your experience! I didn't say that amteurs used finger techniques and who says that playing with fingers is more complex than playing with a quill? If you would like to do it very well it is both not easy... I was just considering that there were persons who maybe played the mandolin but not the lute or the theorbo. For the use of the quill I say it could be a possibility, maybe. It is just a theory as all is what we try to find out. I think in the 17th and 18th century there was such a diversity of things and not as much standarts as today that we would be surprised what is possible if we would have the chance to make a journey to the early times ; ) fingers: fast scales are more difficult, arpeggios more easy, sound is more smooth quill: arpeggio is more difficult, fast scales mire easy, sound is more bright So we try to use the advantages of the techniques. The more possibilities we have, the better... Yes I also think that in general it is easier to play fast scales with thumb and index. But some things are easier to do with middle finger... So I think the best is maybe a combination. If we look at Weiss he didn't use much the alternation of thumb and index, did he? So I don't think the techniques are exactly the same because the mandolinhas other musical tasks and really less strings... ; ) I agree with you about milanese, lombardo etc. but I'm tired of talking about that... ; ) But I think the nomenclature of mandolino and mandolin is also not very helpful because it is only a question of the language... At the moment I prefer baroque mandolin and neapolitan mandolin. I really would like to see and hear your playing! Please tell me when you will be playing near Cologne or do you have any video etc...? And please tell me how your book is developing. Kind regards and thanks! Susanne - Original Message - From: davide.rebuffa davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it To: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Dear Susanne, thanks for your email and your suggestions. First of all I would say that while there is evidence that baroque mandolino
