Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
On 11-Feb-19 4:16 AM, Scott Kostyshak wrote: > On Sat, Nov 03, 2018 at 11:45:14AM -0400, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote: >> On 11/2/18 5:52 PM, Baris Erkus wrote: >>> On 11/2/2018 1:33 PM, Baris Erkus wrote: Hello, I am trying to import the a .tex file into LyX (using file->import). The file has Turkish characters and I believe it is using UTF8 encoding. When I import it, it does not show Turkish characters properly. I attached the file for your play-around. When I import the file on the command line with the UTF8 option tex2lyx -e UTF8 ch1.tex, the LyX file looks just fine except one or two characters. So is there a way to tell to tex2lyx to use UTF8 encoding from within LyX? This issue is occured when I import a tex file that has \input{ch1.tex} in it. So, maybe LyX has and option to force tex2lyx to read in UTF8 for all imports? I found exactly same question on this post, but the answers seem to be unrelated: https://lyx-users.lyx.narkive.com/Rg1StNIT/how-to-force-tex2lyx-to-read-unicode-from-within-lyx Thanks Baris >>> Found the answer: >> Well, that's *an* answer: You can set up a custom "utf8" import, if you >> want. As JMarc said, though, tex2lyx should detect the encoding. Can you >> file a bug report about this so it doesn't get lost? > For archival purposes, note that a bug report was created here: > >https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/11364 > > Scott Noted with thanks. BE. -- ↓↓ Please bottom-post. Start your reply here:
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
On Sat, Nov 03, 2018 at 11:45:14AM -0400, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote: > On 11/2/18 5:52 PM, Baris Erkus wrote: > > On 11/2/2018 1:33 PM, Baris Erkus wrote: > >> Hello, > >> > >> I am trying to import the a .tex file into LyX (using file->import). > >> The file has Turkish characters and I believe it is using UTF8 encoding. > >> When I import it, it does not show Turkish characters properly. I > >> attached the file for your play-around. > >> > >> When I import the file on the command line with the UTF8 option tex2lyx > >> -e UTF8 ch1.tex, the LyX file looks just fine except one or two characters. > >> > >> So is there a way to tell to tex2lyx to use UTF8 encoding from within > >> LyX? This issue is occured when I import a tex file that has > >> \input{ch1.tex} in it. So, maybe LyX has and option to force tex2lyx to > >> read in UTF8 for all imports? > >> > >> I found exactly same question on this post, but the answers seem to be > >> unrelated: > >> > >> https://lyx-users.lyx.narkive.com/Rg1StNIT/how-to-force-tex2lyx-to-read-unicode-from-within-lyx > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> Baris > >> > > > > Found the answer: > > Well, that's *an* answer: You can set up a custom "utf8" import, if you > want. As JMarc said, though, tex2lyx should detect the encoding. Can you > file a bug report about this so it doesn't get lost? For archival purposes, note that a bug report was created here: https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/11364 Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
On 11/2/18 5:52 PM, Baris Erkus wrote: > On 11/2/2018 1:33 PM, Baris Erkus wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I am trying to import the a .tex file into LyX (using file->import). >> The file has Turkish characters and I believe it is using UTF8 encoding. >> When I import it, it does not show Turkish characters properly. I >> attached the file for your play-around. >> >> When I import the file on the command line with the UTF8 option tex2lyx >> -e UTF8 ch1.tex, the LyX file looks just fine except one or two characters. >> >> So is there a way to tell to tex2lyx to use UTF8 encoding from within >> LyX? This issue is occured when I import a tex file that has >> \input{ch1.tex} in it. So, maybe LyX has and option to force tex2lyx to >> read in UTF8 for all imports? >> >> I found exactly same question on this post, but the answers seem to be >> unrelated: >> >> https://lyx-users.lyx.narkive.com/Rg1StNIT/how-to-force-tex2lyx-to-read-unicode-from-within-lyx >> >> Thanks >> >> Baris >> > > Found the answer: Well, that's *an* answer: You can set up a custom "utf8" import, if you want. As JMarc said, though, tex2lyx should detect the encoding. Can you file a bug report about this so it doesn't get lost? Riki
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
On 11/2/2018 1:33 PM, Baris Erkus wrote: Hello, I am trying to import the a .tex file into LyX (using file->import). The file has Turkish characters and I believe it is using UTF8 encoding. When I import it, it does not show Turkish characters properly. I attached the file for your play-around. When I import the file on the command line with the UTF8 option tex2lyx -e UTF8 ch1.tex, the LyX file looks just fine except one or two characters. So is there a way to tell to tex2lyx to use UTF8 encoding from within LyX? This issue is occured when I import a tex file that has \input{ch1.tex} in it. So, maybe LyX has and option to force tex2lyx to read in UTF8 for all imports? I found exactly same question on this post, but the answers seem to be unrelated: https://lyx-users.lyx.narkive.com/Rg1StNIT/how-to-force-tex2lyx-to-read-unicode-from-within-lyx Thanks Baris Found the answer: See attached figure [cid:part1.B290F4D5.E96124FC@hotmail.com]
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
Well, seems like file->import simply calls tex2lyx.exe without any option such as "-e UTF8". It should not be very difficult to let the user enter his choice of options... On 11/2/2018 10:43 PM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > Le 02/11/2018 à 10:33, Baris Erkus a écrit : >> So is there a way to tell to tex2lyx to use UTF8 encoding from within >> LyX? This issue is occured when I import a tex file that has >> \input{ch1.tex} in it. So, maybe LyX has and option to force tex2lyx to >> read in UTF8 for all imports? > > THe question is why tex2lyx does not see that your main file contains > UTF8. If LaTeX can process it as UTF8, so should tex2lyx. > > JMarc
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
Le 02/11/2018 à 10:33, Baris Erkus a écrit : So is there a way to tell to tex2lyx to use UTF8 encoding from within LyX? This issue is occured when I import a tex file that has \input{ch1.tex} in it. So, maybe LyX has and option to force tex2lyx to read in UTF8 for all imports? THe question is why tex2lyx does not see that your main file contains UTF8. If LaTeX can process it as UTF8, so should tex2lyx. JMarc
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
On Fri, Nov 02, 2018 at 10:33:53AM +, Baris Erkus wrote: > Hello, > > I am trying to import the a .tex file into LyX (using file->import). > The file has Turkish characters and I believe it is using UTF8 encoding. > When I import it, it does not show Turkish characters properly. I > attached the file for your play-around. > > When I import the file on the command line with the UTF8 option tex2lyx > -e UTF8 ch1.tex, the LyX file looks just fine except one or two characters. > > So is there a way to tell to tex2lyx to use UTF8 encoding from within > LyX? This issue is occured when I import a tex file that has > \input{ch1.tex} in it. So, maybe LyX has and option to force tex2lyx to > read in UTF8 for all imports? > > I found exactly same question on this post, but the answers seem to be > unrelated: > > https://lyx-users.lyx.narkive.com/Rg1StNIT/how-to-force-tex2lyx-to-read-unicode-from-within-lyx > > Thanks > > Baris > I can reproduce the incorrect LaTeX import, and also Vim says the file encoding is "utf-8". I can also reproduce with LyX 2.1.0, so it appears it is not a recent regression. Hopefully someone who knows more will have an idea. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
On 2012-02-19, Georg Baum wrote: > Guenter Milde wrote: >> On 2012-02-15, Georg Baum wrote: >>> Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: >>> Unfortunately I know next to nothing about use_non_tex_fonts. After >>> reading the code and user guide a bit I see that using xetex is only >>> possible if use_non_tex_fonts is true, so your patch looks fine. >> It is the other way round: using xetex or luatex is also possible without >> use_non_tex_fonts (which actually means use_fontspec). OTOH, with >> use_non_tex_fonts True, it one of xetex or luatex must be used. > For luatex I agree, but for xetex I don't believe that you are right. Do you > have an example .lyx file, where use_non_tex_fonts is false, but xetex is > still used? If you are right, the patch introduces a regression. Just take a "normal" file (with use_non_tex_fonts False) and select one of File>Export>LaTeX (XeTex) File>Export>PDF (XeTeX) View>Other Formats>PDF (XeTeX) The exported LaTeX with my somewhat outdated LyX-svn is %% LyX 2.1.0svn created this file. For more info, see http://www.lyx.org/. %% Do not edit unless you really know what you are doing. \documentclass[english]{article} \usepackage[T1]{fontenc} \usepackage{babel} \usepackage{xunicode} \begin{document} Test \end{document} and compiles fine with XeTeX. Günter
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
Guenter Milde wrote: > On 2012-02-15, Georg Baum wrote: >> Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > >>> Georg, Juergen, I'd like some feedback on the soundness of the patch. I >>> know next to nil about xetex, and I do not know what is the current >>> state of the art wrt tex2lyx. > >> Unfortunately I know next to nothing about use_non_tex_fonts. After >> reading the code and user guide a bit I see that using xetex is only >> possible if use_non_tex_fonts is true, so your patch looks fine. > > It is the other way round: using xetex or luatex is also possible without > use_non_tex_fonts (which actually means use_fontspec). OTOH, with > use_non_tex_fonts True, it one of xetex or luatex must be used. For luatex I agree, but for xetex I don't believe that you are right. Do you have an example .lyx file, where use_non_tex_fonts is false, but xetex is still used? If you are right, the patch introduces a regression. Georg
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
Eric Weir wrote: > > (IMV, the name for this setting should also be changed: > > - use_non_tex_fonts > > + use_fontspec > > > > this would prevent much confusion.) > > While I now know what it refers to, as a new user I would otherwise have > found the new description mystifying. I would seem that it's possible to be > clear both to advanced users/developers and new users. This is an internal value only. But I also think we should keep it as it is, i.e. abstract and not bound to some specific package which may change in the future. Jürgen
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
On Feb 16, 2012, at 4:35 AM, Guenter Milde wrote: > (IMV, the name for this setting should also be changed: > - use_non_tex_fonts > + use_fontspec > this would prevent much confusion.) While I now know what it refers to, as a new user I would otherwise have found the new description mystifying. I would seem that it's possible to be clear both to advanced users/developers and new users. Regards, -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA eew...@bellsouth.net "Style is truth." - Ray Bradbury
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
On 2012-02-15, Georg Baum wrote: > Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: >> Georg, Juergen, I'd like some feedback on the soundness of the patch. I >> know next to nil about xetex, and I do not know what is the current >> state of the art wrt tex2lyx. > Unfortunately I know next to nothing about use_non_tex_fonts. After reading > the code and user guide a bit I see that using xetex is only possible if > use_non_tex_fonts is true, so your patch looks fine. It is the other way round: using xetex or luatex is also possible without use_non_tex_fonts (which actually means use_fontspec). OTOH, with use_non_tex_fonts True, it one of xetex or luatex must be used. Günter
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
On 2012-02-15, Georg Baum wrote: > Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: >> If other encodings are used, LuaTeX uses the "luainputenc" package, which >> has the same syntax than inputenc, i.e. >> \usepackage[]{luainputenc} >> Maybe we have to care about that. > luainputenc is already handled. Fine. > What is missing for luatex is to set > use_non_tex_fonts to true and the encoding to utf8 if luainputenc is not > used. Unfortunately this is not so easy as with xetex. "use_non_tex_fonts" is actually a toggle to use the "fontspec" package (coupled with the use of polyglossia if the language-package setting is set to auto, if I remember right). The "fontspec" package can be used with the XeTeX and LuaTeX engines but not with TeX and eTeX. This means that tex2lyx should look for \usepackage{fontspec} and set "use_non_tex_fonts" accordingly. (IMV, the name for this setting should also be changed: - use_non_tex_fonts + use_fontspec this would prevent much confusion.) The default encoding (if neither "inputenc" nor "luainputenc" is found) may be chosen according to use_non_tex_fonts: True XeTeX or LuaTeX engines must be used to compile --> assume their default encoding (utf8) as file encoding. False any tex engine can be used to compile --> assume either the 8-bit tex default (ASCII) or utf8 as file encoding. Actually, utf8 should be a safe bet in any case when no "inpuenc" or "luainputenc" is found, as ASCII is a subset of utf8 and no tex engine understands 8-bit encodings (latin-1 ...) without inputenc or a similar package. UTF8 decoding errors should lead to a message: "unknown encoding, please specify the file encoding". If tex2lyx is called from the LyX-GUI, this error should lead to a pop-up dialogue where you can specify an encoding. Günter
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: > LuaTeX can use other encodings, but not with non-tex fonts. So if > \use_non_tex_fonts is true (this is what you want to check for, right?), > the encoding of the file must be utf8. No, it is the other way round: If a xetex package is detected, use_non_tex_fonts is set to true, and the encoding is set to utf8. > If other encodings are used, LuaTeX uses the "luainputenc" package, which > has the same syntax than inputenc, i.e. > > \usepackage[]{luainputenc} > > Maybe we have to care about that. luainputenc is already handled. What is missing for luatex is to set use_non_tex_fonts to true and the encoding to utf8 if luainputenc is not used. Unfortunately this is not so easy as with xetex. Georg
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > Georg, Juergen, I'd like some feedback on the soundness of the patch. I > know next to nil about xetex, and I do not know what is the current > state of the art wrt tex2lyx. Unfortunately I know next to nothing about use_non_tex_fonts. After reading the code and user guide a bit I see that using xetex is only possible if use_non_tex_fonts is true, so your patch looks fine. Georg
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
On 2012-02-15, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: > Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: >> I thought LuaTeX could use encdings other than utf8. Is utf8 the >> default? And does it use the same packages as XeTeX? > LuaTeX can use other encodings, but not with non-tex fonts. Are you sure. I'd think that with "luainputenc" there would be no limitation of the input encoding to utf8. Of course, with non-tex fonts the *font encoding* is Unicode. > So if > \use_non_tex_fonts is true (this is what you want to check for, > right?), the encoding of the file must be utf8. This might be a LyX limitation. However this is about tex2lyx, so we would check for \usepackage{fontenc} or \usepackage{xunicode}. I propose to also check for > \usepackage[]{luainputenc} Günter
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > I thought LuaTeX could use encdings other than utf8. Is utf8 the > default? And does it use the same packages as XeTeX? LuaTeX can use other encodings, but not with non-tex fonts. So if \use_non_tex_fonts is true (this is what you want to check for, right?), the encoding of the file must be utf8. If other encodings are used, LuaTeX uses the "luainputenc" package, which has the same syntax than inputenc, i.e. \usepackage[]{luainputenc} Maybe we have to care about that. The font packages are the same (basically fontspec). Jürgen
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
Le 15/02/2012 11:38, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit : Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > I have a patch that seems to work with XeTeX, I do not know anything > about luatex (what shall we do with it?) I think your patch will work for LuaTeX as well. I thought LuaTeX could use encdings other than utf8. Is utf8 the default? And does it use the same packages as XeTeX? I am very confused by these different engines... JMarc
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > I have a patch that seems to work with XeTeX, I do not know anything > about luatex (what shall we do with it?) I think your patch will work for LuaTeX as well. Jürgen
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
Le 15/02/2012 10:51, Guenter Milde a écrit : IMV, it should try utf8 first in case this does not give a result. * if the file is pure ASCII, everything is fine * if the file is utf8 encoded, fine too * if another encoding is used, an error occures: try again with the second guess. That is not a bad solution, but probably not so easy to implement with our current code. I have a patch that seems to work with XeTeX, I do not know anything about luatex (what shall we do with it?) JMarc
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
On 2012-02-14, stefano franchi wrote: > On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes >> tex2lyx is not really the culprit. The file you attach is broken : it >> does not use xetex/luatex, but it does use "Unicode (XeTeX) (utf8)" as >> encoding. As a result, the latex export of the file does not specify >> any encoding, and tex2lyx is not able to guess it. > Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by "broken" here. If I set > the encoding to pure Unicode (isn't that what "Unicode (XeTeX) (utf8)" > means?) shouldn't that be enough to specify that the file is > Unicode-encoded? The setting "Unicode (XeTeX) (utf8)" specifies that the LyX-generated LaTeX file should be utf-8 encoded Unicode * without "forced" substitutions (for characters the halfway utf8 support of 8-bit LaTeX does not understand or does wrong), and * without calling the "inputenc" package. This means that in the exported file, utf-8 encoding is used but there is no specification of the used encoding inside the *.tex file. You can consider this an "expert setting": it allows to circumvent limitations but usually requires additional custom preamble code to produce valid LaTeX files. Similar to the use of ERT, LyX does not guarantee proper working. > That seems obvious to me (which of course may only reflect my ignorance > of Lyx code). If that's not true then I do not understand what is the > meaning of the Document>>Settings>Language>>Encoding value. It seems that tex2lyx relies on the optional argument in the \usepackage[]{inputenc} line to determine the *.tex file encoding. IMV, it should try utf8 first in case this does not give a result. * if the file is pure ASCII, everything is fine * if the file is utf8 encoded, fine too * if another encoding is used, an error occures: try again with the second guess. Günter
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > Le 14/02/2012 00:47, Richard Heck a écrit : > >>> Try out the enclosed minimal lyx file. >>> >>> 1. exporting to latex and reimporting into lyx from >>> FIle>>Import>>Latex(plain) produces garbage characters for the dashes >>> >>> 2. However, calling>tex2lyx -e UTF8 from the command line produces >>> the correct file. >> >> Still, it's surprising we fail in this particular case, so I'd guess it >> is indeed a bug. I'll cross-post to devel. > > > tex2lyx is not really the culprit. The file you attach is broken : it does > not use xetex/luatex, but it does use "Unicode (XeTeX) (utf8)" as encoding. > As a result, the latex export of the file does not specify any encoding, and > tex2lyx is not able to guess it. > Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by "broken" here. If I set the encoding to pure Unicode (isn't that what "Unicode (XeTeX) (utf8)" means?) shouldn't that be enough to specify that the file is Unicode-encoded? That seems obvious to me (which of course may only reflect my ignorance of Lyx code). If that's not true then I do not understand what is the meaning of the Document>>Settings>Language>>Encoding value. Cheers, Stefano -- __ Stefano Franchi Associate Research Professor Department of Hispanic Studies Ph: +1 (979) 845-2125 Texas A&M University Fax: +1 (979) 845-6421 College Station, Texas, USA stef...@tamu.edu http://stefano.cleinias.org
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > Georg, Juergen, I'd like some feedback on the soundness of the patch. I > know next to nil about xetex, and I do not know what is the current > state of the art wrt tex2lyx. The latter I don't know either, but the patch looks sane. We set the encoding to utf8 internally as well if \use_non_tex_fonts is true. Jürgen
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
Le 14/02/2012 00:47, Richard Heck a écrit : Try out the enclosed minimal lyx file. 1. exporting to latex and reimporting into lyx from FIle>>Import>>Latex(plain) produces garbage characters for the dashes 2. However, calling>tex2lyx -e UTF8 from the command line produces the correct file. Still, it's surprising we fail in this particular case, so I'd guess it is indeed a bug. I'll cross-post to devel. tex2lyx is not really the culprit. The file you attach is broken : it does not use xetex/luatex, but it does use "Unicode (XeTeX) (utf8)" as encoding. As a result, the latex export of the file does not specify any encoding, and tex2lyx is not able to guess it. Even better, try to visualize the file: the encoding will be bogus, without any intervention of tex2lyx. What happens in this case is that the encoding is set to latin1 (utf8 is a better default in some sense, but if you guess it wrong, you can bet convertion errors, see bug #7509). Unfortuantely, it seems that the encodings utf8 and utf8x (handled by plain latex), do not understand some of your hyphens, and produce a document that does not compile. So your best bet is probably to produce a file that will be imported as XeTeX/LuaTeX. This will happen when some characteristic packages are recognized, which will happen after the followinf patch is applied. Georg, Juergen, I'd like some feedback on the soundness of the patch. I know next to nil about xetex, and I do not know what is the current state of the art wrt tex2lyx. JMarc Index: src/tex2lyx/Preamble.cpp === --- src/tex2lyx/Preamble.cpp (révision 40747) +++ src/tex2lyx/Preamble.cpp (copie de travail) @@ -401,6 +401,7 @@ h_font_sans = "default"; h_font_typewriter = "default"; h_font_default_family = "default"; + h_use_non_tex_fonts = "false"; h_font_sc = "false"; h_font_osf= "false"; h_font_sf_scale = "100"; @@ -581,8 +582,11 @@ add_package(name, options); string scale; - if (is_known(name, known_xetex_packages)) + if (is_known(name, known_xetex_packages)) { xetex = true; + h_use_non_tex_fonts = "true"; + p.setEncoding("utf8"); + } // roman fonts if (is_known(name, known_roman_fonts)) { @@ -901,6 +905,7 @@ << "\\font_sans " << h_font_sans << "\n" << "\\font_typewriter " << h_font_typewriter << "\n" << "\\font_default_family " << h_font_default_family << "\n" + << "\\use_non_tex_fonts " << h_use_non_tex_fonts << "\n" << "\\font_sc " << h_font_sc << "\n" << "\\font_osf " << h_font_osf << "\n" << "\\font_sf_scale " << h_font_sf_scale << "\n" Index: src/tex2lyx/Preamble.h === --- src/tex2lyx/Preamble.h (révision 40747) +++ src/tex2lyx/Preamble.h (copie de travail) @@ -90,6 +90,7 @@ std::string h_font_sans; std::string h_font_typewriter; std::string h_font_default_family; + std::string h_use_non_tex_fonts; std::string h_font_sc; std::string h_font_osf; std::string h_font_sf_scale;
Re: How to force tex2lyx to read unicode (from within Lyx)?
On 02/13/2012 05:41 PM, stefano franchi wrote: I have been helping Eric Weir with his Scrivener-->LaTeX-->Lyx import and we have narrowed down the problem to Lyx not importing a Unicode-encoded file as Unicode. I'm glad to hear someone was able to help with this. Thanks for your efforts on behalf of the LyX community. So tex2lyx is the culprit. Wasn't this solved some time ago, however?I mean: automatic recognition of the imported file encoding? Well, that's a complicated issue. They may have tried to do a better job, but recognizing the file encoding completely reliably is not in general possible. There's some famous example of this. Try out the enclosed minimal lyx file. 1. exporting to latex and reimporting into lyx from FIle>>Import>>Latex(plain) produces garbage characters for the dashes 2. However, calling>tex2lyx -e UTF8 from the command line produces the correct file. Still, it's surprising we fail in this particular case, so I'd guess it is indeed a bug. I'll cross-post to devel. Richard