Re: N810 is here

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Donnerstag, 25. Oktober 2007 schrieben Sie:
> Krischan Keitsch schrieb:
> > Am Donnerstag, 18. Oktober 2007 schrieb Ralph Angenendt:
> >> John Rudd wrote:
> >>> Kahlil Johnson wrote:
>  Wow, still no OGG when will maemo people ever learn. Who cares
>  about AAC, give us OGG.
> >>>
> >>> Huh.  I have many AAC files.  I have no OGG files.  Why should even
> >>> remotely care about OGG?
> >>
> >> How weird. I have no AAC files but a big bunch of ogg files, why should
> >> I even remotely care about AAC?
> >>
> >> IOW: What is the point you are trying to make?
> >>
> >>> Or is this one of those "you absolutely need it for interesting content
> >>> in Europe, but it's absolutely useless for content in the Americas"
> >>> type situations?
> >>
> >> Huh? What does it have to do with America/Europe? It's about *open* and
> >> *free* music codecs - neither AAC nor MP3 are free.
> >>
> >> And I don't really see the problem with supporting *also* ogg.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Ralph
> >
> > I couldn't agree more!
>
> Well, me too, though I think the issue is a little tight to the
> hardware. As you know the TI-DSP inside the TI-CPU is heavily used for
> decoding multi-media stuff.
>
> Most if the used codecs are heavily patent and license contaminated.
> This is not only a problem for Nokia but for all hardware manufacturers
> that want to deal with this kind of stuff. The process is tedious, long
> and hard to a) implement the codecs in a non-patent-vialoating way (i.e.
> follow the patent) and afterwards licensing (try to find out what an MP3
> decoder will cost and you know my point here).
> So what most manufacturers do, since they are not the first ones to make
> this stuff, they rely on third parties to figure out all that stuff for
> them and then just buy the package.
> So what I assume what has happened is that Nokia simply bought/licensed
> a pre-configured package of codecs for the TI DSP. They will probably
> not have developed the codecs themselves, just the interface to them.
> This way they only have very little influence on the codecs, their
> number or which codecs they get. The most popular ones are of course
> included, like MP3 and AAC.
> But since there is no money to make with sublicensing OGG-Vorbis, there
> will only be little to none suppliers for a ready made TI-DSP OGG-Vorbis
> codec engine. So it did not make it into the product.
>
> The licensing argument that came up in another thread is probably just a
> misunderstanding. It could be meant like "Since Nokia had to choose that
> package due to licening issues they were not able to individually pick
> additional codecs like Ogg". Some take-it-or-leave-it deal.
>
That sounds like a plausible explanation. Sad but true.

> That's my view on the status quo.
>
> Concerning the future I think that TI and Nokia could do more to help
> the community to fill the gap. There would be the possibility for the
> community to do this development on their own, i.e. write a DSP
> application doing OGG decoding. I can remembder that someone on the -dev
> mailinglist started this but cannot remember the name anymore, sorry.
> What Nokia could do to help here is to push TI more to release more
> development information to interested DSP core developers (and to the
> public of course). There is a DSP SDK available from TI, but buried down
> somewhere on some development page for which you have to sign up first
> before being able to download. The license agreement you have to sign
> during the process is anything than clear and might suggest that your
> are not allowed to develop something with this version that you intent
> to redistribute (even open source) - so only for internal evaluation.
> For a real developer license you have to buy the quite expensive
> software development kit. So also an official statement from TI would be
> needed that this SDK version can be used for open source development and
> that the resulting work can be freely distributed in source code and
> binary form. Only then Nokia can pick this up and include it in future
> products.
>
>
> Again this is my personal view from what I read on the MLs and from my
> experience with companies and licening...
>
> > Krischan
>
> Cheers
>   nils faerber
Ogg vorbis / tremor is just one of many codex. So the problem is more general. 
It is about a closed device on the internet tablets with rarely any 
information available. 
I acknowledge the commitment from Nokia towards open source and if they could 
they would have released the necessary information yet. They are caught in 
the constrains like many other companies.

I keep that in mind but I still ask them to release specs and info's! I take 
their commitment toward open source serious.

The Openmoko project has a diffrent approach: They try (at least) to use only 
hardware with open source drivers or at least freely available specs. That 
makes it a open platform (without a dsp btw) ;-)

The world is neither 1 nor 0 - there

Re: N810 is here

[Nils Faerber]

Krischan Keitsch schrieb:
> Am Donnerstag, 18. Oktober 2007 schrieb Ralph Angenendt:
>> John Rudd wrote:
>>> Kahlil Johnson wrote:
 Wow, still no OGG when will maemo people ever learn. Who cares
 about AAC, give us OGG.
>>> Huh.  I have many AAC files.  I have no OGG files.  Why should even
>>> remotely care about OGG?
>> How weird. I have no AAC files but a big bunch of ogg files, why should
>> I even remotely care about AAC?
>>
>> IOW: What is the point you are trying to make?
>>
>>> Or is this one of those "you absolutely need it for interesting content
>>> in Europe, but it's absolutely useless for content in the Americas" type
>>> situations?
>> Huh? What does it have to do with America/Europe? It's about *open* and
>> *free* music codecs - neither AAC nor MP3 are free.
>>
>> And I don't really see the problem with supporting *also* ogg.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Ralph
> 
> I couldn't agree more!

Well, me too, though I think the issue is a little tight to the
hardware. As you know the TI-DSP inside the TI-CPU is heavily used for
decoding multi-media stuff.

Most if the used codecs are heavily patent and license contaminated.
This is not only a problem for Nokia but for all hardware manufacturers
that want to deal with this kind of stuff. The process is tedious, long
and hard to a) implement the codecs in a non-patent-vialoating way (i.e.
follow the patent) and afterwards licensing (try to find out what an MP3
decoder will cost and you know my point here).
So what most manufacturers do, since they are not the first ones to make
this stuff, they rely on third parties to figure out all that stuff for
them and then just buy the package.
So what I assume what has happened is that Nokia simply bought/licensed
a pre-configured package of codecs for the TI DSP. They will probably
not have developed the codecs themselves, just the interface to them.
This way they only have very little influence on the codecs, their
number or which codecs they get. The most popular ones are of course
included, like MP3 and AAC.
But since there is no money to make with sublicensing OGG-Vorbis, there
will only be little to none suppliers for a ready made TI-DSP OGG-Vorbis
codec engine. So it did not make it into the product.

The licensing argument that came up in another thread is probably just a
misunderstanding. It could be meant like "Since Nokia had to choose that
package due to licening issues they were not able to individually pick
additional codecs like Ogg". Some take-it-or-leave-it deal.

That's my view on the status quo.

Concerning the future I think that TI and Nokia could do more to help
the community to fill the gap. There would be the possibility for the
community to do this development on their own, i.e. write a DSP
application doing OGG decoding. I can remembder that someone on the -dev
mailinglist started this but cannot remember the name anymore, sorry.
What Nokia could do to help here is to push TI more to release more
development information to interested DSP core developers (and to the
public of course). There is a DSP SDK available from TI, but buried down
somewhere on some development page for which you have to sign up first
before being able to download. The license agreement you have to sign
during the process is anything than clear and might suggest that your
are not allowed to develop something with this version that you intent
to redistribute (even open source) - so only for internal evaluation.
For a real developer license you have to buy the quite expensive
software development kit. So also an official statement from TI would be
needed that this SDK version can be used for open source development and
that the resulting work can be freely distributed in source code and
binary form. Only then Nokia can pick this up and include it in future
products.


Again this is my personal view from what I read on the MLs and from my
experience with companies and licening...

> Krischan
Cheers
  nils faerber

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Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Frederic Crozat]

Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 15:07 +0200, Tilman Vogel a écrit :
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Frederic Crozat schrieb:
> > And to do that, we need "expected to work but doesn't work" ogg support
> > package. And unfortunately, neither mogg or ogg-support packages are in
> > this state for n800 (one lack schema and the other is not registering
> > the correct mimetype) :(
> 
> The mogg source is up in the download section and in svn and it's easy
> to repackage! I am more than happy about solutions/patches! I don't have
> an N800 to try it out!
> 
> Tilman
> 
> PS. Rant is a good start, but action and contributions cannot be
> substituted.

You're right :)

Could you try apply the attached patch (I've take the liberty to check
ogg-support package as well as latest version of shared-mime-info for
ogg support) ? It should make sure the correct mimetype are 


-- 
Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Index: usr/share/mime/packages/ogg-vorbis.xml
===
--- usr/share/mime/packages/ogg-vorbis.xml	(revision 9)
+++ usr/share/mime/packages/ogg-vorbis.xml	(working copy)
@@ -1,10 +1,28 @@
 
 http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/shared-mime-info";>
-  
+  
 
+
+OGG multimedia
+  
+   
+Ogg Audio
+
 
-  
+  
 
-OGG audio
+
+
   
+  
+
+Ogg Vorbis audio
+
+  
+
+  
+
+
+
+  
 
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Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieb Frederic Crozat:
> Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 12:11 +0200, Krischan Keitsch a écrit :
> > Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieb Frederic Crozat:
> > > Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 11:59 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit :
> > > > So, there shouldn't be any need for any Maemo specific specs, these
> > > > things are documented in upstream projects.  There should still be
> > > > a tutorial how to do these things though.
> > >
> > > Tutorial is already available in Maemo 3.x SDK documentation, but we
> > > aren't sure it is working as expected, because of mediaplayer
> > > "blackbox".
> > >
> > > > If there are still some problems after codec has been
> > > > correctly registered to gstreamer and mime-type database:
> > > > - gstreamer not recognizing the file type correctly
> > >
> > > I don't think it is the case, using :
> > >
> > > gst-launcher filesrc location=test.ogg  ! decodebin ! audioconvert !
> > > dsppcmsink does work, so gstreamer is handling the file correctly.
> >
> > We are spinning in circles. We have been there too many times already!
>
> So, let's break the circle.

Yes! That's the spirit!

>
> Using incantation won't change things. I prefer action.
>
> > > > - mediaplayer not playing the file
> > >
> > > I think the problem is here, unfortunately :(
> > >
> > > Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player,
> > > unfortunately.> .
> >
> > Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media
> > player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet?
>
> It is one part of the problem but even if we had the source, it wouldn't
> ensure the problem is fixed.
>
> And I'm not in a mood to blame Nokia for not releasing Media Player
> source code. It is part of their policy to not release code from UI
> based application, I respect that, even if I regret it.
>
> So, now, the important thing is either to find if the gconf
> configuration for Media Player is wrong and can be fixed or if the
> problem is in Media Player itself (help from some Nokia dudes welcome
> here, hint hint :)
>
> > > > - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly
> > >
> > > This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly
> > >
> > > > Please file bugs.
> >
> > 
> > Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30?
> > https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176
> > 
>
> I think you can drop this kind of reply. And I'm serious. This bring
> nowhere.
>

You are right. Sarcasm leads nowhere. I just wanted to point out that the 
community (and therefore the custumers) have been requesting ogg support 
since the beginning! 

> > > As a sidenote, from my distribution persective (I'm GNOME maintainer at
> > > Mandriva), Maemo community "fragmentation" about packages and
> > > duplicated work is killing me :( There seems to be a lot of energy
> > > around there but often doing the thing or not using infrastructure
> > > available thanks to Garage (for instance, some people are only using
> > > garage as a way to ship files and don't store their source code in
> > > SVN).
> >
> > I have been wondering that as well many times. How come that this
> > community is 'fragmented'? What is causing it?
>
> I don't think it is a problem of the "community" or "infrastructure" but
> more of a lack of common practices, which are already in place in
> various other distributions or project, from new people trying to work
> on Maemo-based software.

Regards Krischan


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Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Tilman Vogel]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Frederic Crozat schrieb:
> And to do that, we need "expected to work but doesn't work" ogg support
> package. And unfortunately, neither mogg or ogg-support packages are in
> this state for n800 (one lack schema and the other is not registering
> the correct mimetype) :(

The mogg source is up in the download section and in svn and it's easy
to repackage! I am more than happy about solutions/patches! I don't have
an N800 to try it out!

Tilman

PS. Rant is a good start, but action and contributions cannot be
substituted.


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHGKwg9ZPu6Yae8lkRAlJlAJ4jK/AEZ3xSTg2UjS6ZR65E1MOYRQCggdse
g2MUU5SbAfQdZuPsPgg72uw=
=3uUJ
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Frederic Crozat]

Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 15:14 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> ext Krischan Keitsch wrote:
> >>> - mediaplayer not playing the file
> >> I think the problem is here, unfortunately :(
> >>
> >> Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player,
> >> unfortunately.> . 
> > 
> > Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media 
> > player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet?
> > 
> >>> - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly
> >> This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly
> >>
> >>> Please file bugs.
> > 
> > Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30? 
> > https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176
> > 
> 
> This is clearly a different issue.  That bug is about ogg/theora support
> for N770 Mediaplayer, not about Mediaplayer in newer releases supporting
> user installed codecs.
> 
> Bug about this should be something like this:
> 
> STEPS TO REPRODUCE:
> 1. Install code package codec-foo from repository bar
> 2. Browse to URL foo.bar.org/songs.html and tap to the song.foo file
> 
> EXPECTED RESULT:
> - Mediaplayer starts to play nice-song.foo

And to do that, we need "expected to work but doesn't work" ogg support
package. And unfortunately, neither mogg or ogg-support packages are in
this state for n800 (one lack schema and the other is not registering
the correct mimetype) :(

-- 
Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Eero Tamminen]

Hi,

ext Krischan Keitsch wrote:
>>> - mediaplayer not playing the file
>> I think the problem is here, unfortunately :(
>>
>> Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player,
>> unfortunately.> . 
> 
> Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media 
> player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet?
> 
>>> - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly
>> This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly
>>
>>> Please file bugs.
> 
> Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30? 
> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176
> 

This is clearly a different issue.  That bug is about ogg/theora support
for N770 Mediaplayer, not about Mediaplayer in newer releases supporting
user installed codecs.

Bug about this should be something like this:

STEPS TO REPRODUCE:
1. Install code package codec-foo from repository bar
2. Browse to URL foo.bar.org/songs.html and tap to the song.foo file

EXPECTED RESULT:
- Mediaplayer starts to play nice-song.foo


- Eero
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Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Frederic Crozat]

Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 12:11 +0200, Krischan Keitsch a écrit :
> Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieb Frederic Crozat:
> > Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 11:59 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit :
> > > So, there shouldn't be any need for any Maemo specific specs, these
> > > things are documented in upstream projects.  There should still be
> > > a tutorial how to do these things though.
> >
> > Tutorial is already available in Maemo 3.x SDK documentation, but we
> > aren't sure it is working as expected, because of mediaplayer
> > "blackbox".
> >
> > > If there are still some problems after codec has been
> > > correctly registered to gstreamer and mime-type database:
> > > - gstreamer not recognizing the file type correctly
> >
> > I don't think it is the case, using :
> >
> > gst-launcher filesrc location=test.ogg  ! decodebin ! audioconvert !
> > dsppcmsink does work, so gstreamer is handling the file correctly.
> >
> We are spinning in circles. We have been there too many times already!

So, let's break the circle.

Using incantation won't change things. I prefer action.

> > > - mediaplayer not playing the file
> >
> > I think the problem is here, unfortunately :(
> >
> > Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player,
> > unfortunately.> . 
> 
> Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media 
> player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet?

It is one part of the problem but even if we had the source, it wouldn't
ensure the problem is fixed.

And I'm not in a mood to blame Nokia for not releasing Media Player
source code. It is part of their policy to not release code from UI
based application, I respect that, even if I regret it.

So, now, the important thing is either to find if the gconf
configuration for Media Player is wrong and can be fixed or if the
problem is in Media Player itself (help from some Nokia dudes welcome
here, hint hint :)

> > > - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly
> >
> > This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly
> >
> > > Please file bugs.
> 
> Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30? 
> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176
> 

I think you can drop this kind of reply. And I'm serious. This bring
nowhere.

> > As a sidenote, from my distribution persective (I'm GNOME maintainer at
> > Mandriva), Maemo community "fragmentation" about packages and duplicated
> > work is killing me :( There seems to be a lot of energy around there but
> > often doing the thing or not using infrastructure available thanks to
> > Garage (for instance, some people are only using garage as a way to ship
> > files and don't store their source code in SVN).
> I have been wondering that as well many times. How come that this community 
> is 'fragmented'? What is causing it?

I don't think it is a problem of the "community" or "infrastructure" but
more of a lack of common practices, which are already in place in
various other distributions or project, from new people trying to work
on Maemo-based software.

-- 
Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieb Frederic Crozat:
> Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 11:59 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit :
> > So, there shouldn't be any need for any Maemo specific specs, these
> > things are documented in upstream projects.  There should still be
> > a tutorial how to do these things though.
>
> Tutorial is already available in Maemo 3.x SDK documentation, but we
> aren't sure it is working as expected, because of mediaplayer
> "blackbox".
>
> > If there are still some problems after codec has been
> > correctly registered to gstreamer and mime-type database:
> > - gstreamer not recognizing the file type correctly
>
> I don't think it is the case, using :
>
> gst-launcher filesrc location=test.ogg  ! decodebin ! audioconvert !
> dsppcmsink does work, so gstreamer is handling the file correctly.
>
We are spinning in circles. We have been there too many times already!

> > - mediaplayer not playing the file
>
> I think the problem is here, unfortunately :(
>
> Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player,
> unfortunately.> . 

Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media 
player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet?

>
> > - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly
>
> This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly
>
> > Please file bugs.

Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30? 
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176

>
> Before filling bugs against maemo, I think it would be better to only
> have "one" ogg support package available for 770 / n800 (and soon n810)
> to make sure efforts are not duplicated.

Yepp! Convergence instead of parallel efforts! Time to puzzle should be over 
in order to mature this platform.
>
> As a sidenote, from my distribution persective (I'm GNOME maintainer at
> Mandriva), Maemo community "fragmentation" about packages and duplicated
> work is killing me :( There seems to be a lot of energy around there but
> often doing the thing or not using infrastructure available thanks to
> Garage (for instance, some people are only using garage as a way to ship
> files and don't store their source code in SVN).
I have been wondering that as well many times. How come that this community 
is 'fragmented'? What is causing it?

Regards Krischan

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Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Frederic Crozat]

Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 11:59 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit :

> So, there shouldn't be any need for any Maemo specific specs, these
> things are documented in upstream projects.  There should still be
> a tutorial how to do these things though.

Tutorial is already available in Maemo 3.x SDK documentation, but we
aren't sure it is working as expected, because of mediaplayer
"blackbox".

> If there are still some problems after codec has been
> correctly registered to gstreamer and mime-type database:
> - gstreamer not recognizing the file type correctly

I don't think it is the case, using :

gst-launcher filesrc location=test.ogg  ! decodebin ! audioconvert !
dsppcmsink does work, so gstreamer is handling the file correctly.

> - mediaplayer not playing the file
I think the problem is here, unfortunately :(

Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player,
unfortunately..

> - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly

This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly

> Please file bugs.

Before filling bugs against maemo, I think it would be better to only
have "one" ogg support package available for 770 / n800 (and soon n810)
to make sure efforts are not duplicated.

As a sidenote, from my distribution persective (I'm GNOME maintainer at
Mandriva), Maemo community "fragmentation" about packages and duplicated
work is killing me :( There seems to be a lot of energy around there but
often doing the thing or not using infrastructure available thanks to
Garage (for instance, some people are only using garage as a way to ship
files and don't store their source code in SVN).

-- 
Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: N810 is here (touch screen)

[Eero Tamminen]

ext Alan Williamson wrote:
> Maybe a silly question, but is the N810 still a touch screen device?

Yes.


- Eero

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Re: N810 is here (touch screen)

[Alan Williamson]

Maybe a silly question, but is the N810 still a touch screen device?
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Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Eero Tamminen]

Hi,

ext Krischan Keitsch wrote:
> Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieben Sie:
>> ext Krischan Keitsch wrote:
>>> Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 schrieb Collin R. Mulliner:
 OGG is only a nerd feature and also has other problems, so Nokia (and
 other companies) just don't care. Maybe somebody can make a plugin (also
 this won't utilize the DSP).
>>> I don't agree with ogg = nerd feature. Linux as an open and free platform
>>> is way beyond nerd-state. Ogg is also about openness and freedom. They
>>> share the same philosophy.
>>>
>>> The OS of our internet tablets is based upon Linux, isn't it? So why is
>>> there no support for ogg?
>>>
>>> By the way: every time a new stylish personal media player from china is
>>> shown on engadget you will find more and more players with support for
>>> flac and ogg vorbis. Hmm, something is changing?
>> I think whether Nokia is going to support ogg or not is somewhat
>> besides the point.  What should be supported is:
>> - Addition of support for new codecs to the system
>>(works, but the repository situation could be better)
>> - All applications immediately able to use the new codecs
>> - User opening a file (in browser or filemanager) encoded with the new
>>codec should automatically open it in the correct player
>> - Documenting how to achieve this
>>
>> This way Nokia doesn't need to be a bottleneck in getting new codecs
>> for the users; community, commercial companies etc could then do it.
>
> I agree with you. The "missing ogg support" can also be seen as a synonym for 
> missing codex in general, missing specs, information and commitment. Can we 
> interpret your post that things will change? And when?

Sorry, this is not really my area and I don't know the situation in
Chinook.  Quim?

I think everything should work at the gstreamer level, but at least
earlier the higher levels hard-coded some things because:
- Maemo has actually two multimedia frameworks below osso-media-server,
   Helix and Gstreamer working over Gnomevfs
- Whether something could be played depends from whether they are
   available as a local file or a remote stream, not just the used
   codec

So, there shouldn't be any need for any Maemo specific specs, these
things are documented in upstream projects.  There should still be
a tutorial how to do these things though.

If there are still some problems after codec has been
correctly registered to gstreamer and mime-type database:
- gstreamer not recognizing the file type correctly
- mediaplayer not playing the file
- file manager or browser not launching the media player properly
Please file bugs.


> Will the community soon have the necessary information, sdk, tools etc. to 
> fully take advantage of the capabilities of the internet tablet hardware 
> (especially the dsp)? 

DSP is another, unrelated issue to the above one.  Quim?


> What you wrote sounds promissing! There are highly skilled and talented 
> people 
> around here - I think they are just waiting for the facts to release the 
> potential of the internet tablets! Give them what they need!


- Eero
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Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieben Sie:
> Hi,
>
> ext Krischan Keitsch wrote:
> > Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 schrieb Collin R. Mulliner:
> >> OGG is only a nerd feature and also has other problems, so Nokia (and
> >> other companies) just don't care. Maybe somebody can make a plugin (also
> >> this won't utilize the DSP).
> >
> > I don't agree with ogg = nerd feature. Linux as an open and free platform
> > is way beyond nerd-state. Ogg is also about openness and freedom. They
> > share the same philosophy.
> >
> > The OS of our internet tablets is based upon Linux, isn't it? So why is
> > there no support for ogg?
> >
> > By the way: every time a new stylish personal media player from china is
> > shown on engadget you will find more and more players with support for
> > flac and ogg vorbis. Hmm, something is changing?
>
> I think whether Nokia is going to support ogg or not is somewhat
> besides the point.  What should be supported is:
> - Addition of support for new codecs to the system
>(works, but the repository situation could be better)
> - All applications immediately able to use the new codecs
> - User opening a file (in browser or filemanager) encoded with the new
>codec should automatically open it in the correct player
> - Documenting how to achieve this
>
> This way Nokia doesn't need to be a bottleneck in getting new codecs
> for the users; community, commercial companies etc could then do it.
>
>
>   - Eero

Hi Eero,

I agree with you. The "missing ogg support" can also be seen as a synonym for 
missing codex in general, missing specs, information and commitment. Can we 
interpret your post that things will change? And when?

Will the community soon have the necessary information, sdk, tools etc. to 
fully take advantage of the capabilities of the internet tablet hardware 
(especially the dsp)? 

What you wrote sounds promissing! There are highly skilled and talented people 
around here - I think they are just waiting for the facts to release the 
potential of the internet tablets! Give them what they need!

Regards Krischan
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Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Eero Tamminen]

Hi,

ext Krischan Keitsch wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 schrieb Collin R. Mulliner:
>> OGG is only a nerd feature and also has other problems, so Nokia (and
>> other companies) just don't care. Maybe somebody can make a plugin (also
>> this won't utilize the DSP).
>>
> I don't agree with ogg = nerd feature. Linux as an open and free platform is 
> way beyond nerd-state. Ogg is also about openness and freedom. They share the 
> same philosophy.
> 
> The OS of our internet tablets is based upon Linux, isn't it? So why is there 
> no support for ogg?
> 
> By the way: every time a new stylish personal media player from china is 
> shown 
> on engadget you will find more and more players with support for flac and ogg 
> vorbis. Hmm, something is changing?

I think whether Nokia is going to support ogg or not is somewhat
besides the point.  What should be supported is:
- Addition of support for new codecs to the system
   (works, but the repository situation could be better)
- All applications immediately able to use the new codecs
- User opening a file (in browser or filemanager) encoded with the new
   codec should automatically open it in the correct player
- Documenting how to achieve this

This way Nokia doesn't need to be a bottleneck in getting new codecs
for the users; community, commercial companies etc could then do it.


- Eero

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Re: N810 is here

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 schrieb Collin R. Mulliner:
>
> OGG is only a nerd feature and also has other problems, so Nokia (and
> other companies) just don't care. Maybe somebody can make a plugin (also
> this won't utilize the DSP).
>
I don't agree with ogg = nerd feature. Linux as an open and free platform is 
way beyond nerd-state. Ogg is also about openness and freedom. They share the 
same philosophy.

The OS of our internet tablets is based upon Linux, isn't it? So why is there 
no support for ogg?

By the way: every time a new stylish personal media player from china is shown 
on engadget you will find more and more players with support for flac and ogg 
vorbis. Hmm, something is changing?

Regards Krischan

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Re: N810 is here -- whitout ogg support

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Donnerstag, 18. Oktober 2007 schrieb Steve Greenland:
> According to John Rudd  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > And, no, it's not about "open and free".  Since the developers in
> > question are Nokia (since the comment was directed at the release of the
> > N810 itself, and not a request for more 3rd party development), it's
> > about how much effort the developers need to put into supporting
> > something vs. the amount of return they get from supporting it.
>
> Actually, it is about being open and free. Nokia promotes the tablet
> as an open platform, and is using huge amounts of free software as the
> basis for its product. To ignore ogg-vorbis support, which *is* an
> important feature for many of us (and far more valuable, to *me*, than
> WMA and AAC support), and is pretty much the only free-as-in-freedom
> codec, is a bit of a slap in the face.
>
> Some of us do have political agendas, such as promoting the use of free
> software. That Nokia uses our software (as is their right, according to
> our licenses), but then promotes non-free codecs/software, is a bit sad.
>
> Regards,
> Steve

A product such as internet tablets needs users (many users, not just oss 
enthusiasts) in order to get some traction on the market and to evolve. 
Therefore it makes sense to include mainstream media codex for non-developer 
costumers. 

On the other hand the internet tablets are not just commercial products but 
also a commitment by Nokia to support open source development ( see upstream 
projects such as hildon etc.). The business unit at Nokia taking care of the 
internet tablets have realiced that it reduces costs on the long run to 
participate on the open source development - taking and giving.

So, we have a strong commitment from Nokia towards open source and nice 
internet tablets aiming at average users as well as linux power users and 
developers. The average user might not care as much about ogg support or not 
(keeping in mind that the number of ogg content on the web increases) but we 
linux power users do. And we have been asking for ogg (dsp based) support 
since the early 770 OS2005 days! 

I think the comunity would accept a clear "no, we will not support ogg 
because ..." by Nokia when they would release desperately needed information 
about the dsp and the source of the proprietary media player. Then the 
comunity could put the peaces together. 

It is always refreshing to take a look at the openmoko project, their mailing 
lists and wiki. So far there is 'just' a developer version of that open phone 
available, but the community is extremely creative and enthusiastic. They know 
where they are at - maybe it is because it is all about openness?

Regards Krischan

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Re: N810 is here

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Donnerstag, 18. Oktober 2007 schrieb Ralph Angenendt:
> John Rudd wrote:
> > Kahlil Johnson wrote:
> > > Wow, still no OGG when will maemo people ever learn. Who cares
> > > about AAC, give us OGG.
> >
> > Huh.  I have many AAC files.  I have no OGG files.  Why should even
> > remotely care about OGG?
>
> How weird. I have no AAC files but a big bunch of ogg files, why should
> I even remotely care about AAC?
>
> IOW: What is the point you are trying to make?
>
> > Or is this one of those "you absolutely need it for interesting content
> > in Europe, but it's absolutely useless for content in the Americas" type
> > situations?
>
> Huh? What does it have to do with America/Europe? It's about *open* and
> *free* music codecs - neither AAC nor MP3 are free.
>
> And I don't really see the problem with supporting *also* ogg.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ralph

I couldn't agree more!

Krischan

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Re: N810 is here

[Steve Greenland]

According to Peter Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Vorbis support would be excellent (as would speex for voip and theora
> for video) but I suspect for Nokia the majority of people that buy the
> Tablets wouldn't know what any of them are let alone probably care.
> Ultimately the continued development of the Internet Tablets, OS 200x
> and maemo by Nokia depends on whether they make money or not so for
> the mainstream wma and aac is probably more of a focus for them.

Oh, sure, I know that. Even I have much higher priority items for Nokia
to get working on, things 3rd parties can't do, like getting proper
Debian upgrades working (flash the ROM, feh!).

> [vorbis/tremor and DSP]
> So when it comes down to it most of the required/hard parts of vorbis
> support (and probably speex to as it too has fixed point DSP
> implementations) are already there. It just needs some smart
> programmers to bolt the required bits together 

Actually, it's already done -- both ogg-support and mogg seem to use the
tremor implementation (although maybe not on the DSP). It's a little
confusing to get working right now (see my ranty review), but a little
cleanup and things will be quite usable.


Regards,
Steve

-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

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Re: N810 is here

[Marius Gedminas]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 08:39:10PM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
> So when it comes down to it most of the required/hard parts of vorbis
> support (and probably speex to as it too has fixed point DSP
> implementations) are already there. It just needs some smart
> programmers to bolt the required bits together not being one of
> those I don't know what exactly is required but I don't remember
> anyone try it on the mailing list other than the G711 (... I think)
> example.

Check out the other thread (Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support).
People are bolting the bits together, it's just hard to get it right.

Marius Gedminas
-- 
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for.


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Re: N810 is here

[Peter Robinson]

> > And, no, it's not about "open and free".  Since the developers in
> > question are Nokia (since the comment was directed at the release of the
> > N810 itself, and not a request for more 3rd party development), it's
> > about how much effort the developers need to put into supporting
> > something vs. the amount of return they get from supporting it.
>
> Actually, it is about being open and free. Nokia promotes the tablet
> as an open platform, and is using huge amounts of free software as the
> basis for its product. To ignore ogg-vorbis support, which *is* an
> important feature for many of us (and far more valuable, to *me*, than
> WMA and AAC support), and is pretty much the only free-as-in-freedom
> codec, is a bit of a slap in the face.
>
> Some of us do have political agendas, such as promoting the use of free
> software. That Nokia uses our software (as is their right, according to
> our licenses), but then promotes non-free codecs/software, is a bit sad.

Vorbis support would be excellent (as would speex for voip and theora
for video) but I suspect for Nokia the majority of people that buy the
Tablets wouldn't know what any of them are let alone probably care.
Ultimately the continued development of the Internet Tablets, OS 200x
and maemo by Nokia depends on whether they make money or not so for
the mainstream wma and aac is probably more of a focus for them.

On the flipside of the above I've seen posts of people on the mailing
list getting basic DSP processing up and running (G711 from memory),
there's the fixed point implementation of vorbis (called Tremor
http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/Tremor) which had notes and details on
the mailing list regarding the TI DSP so it probably wouldn't take
someone with some experience in this plus some gstreamer (I'm sure
some of the GST devs would be able to 'assist' (by this I mean helping
with the GST interface to the DSP if there isn't details available
already) with this as some have worked with nokia on these devices).
Then there's the DSP Gateway site
http://dspgateway.sourceforge.net/pub/index.php which has details of
programming them too.

So when it comes down to it most of the required/hard parts of vorbis
support (and probably speex to as it too has fixed point DSP
implementations) are already there. It just needs some smart
programmers to bolt the required bits together not being one of
those I don't know what exactly is required but I don't remember
anyone try it on the mailing list other than the G711 (... I think)
example.

Pete
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Re: N810 is here

[Jonathan Greene]

The radio was cut as it did not fit ... Same on the memory slots and
the card type

On 10/18/07, Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why the heck would they remove the FM Radio?
>
> And go down to 1 memory slot? I guess that one could be because of the
> placement of the keyboard.
>
> It sure would be nice if we could charge from the USB and host unpowered
> on the USB. I assume that the hosting is a question of support and
> battery life.
>
>
> Gary Baribault
> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>
>
>
> Jonathan Greene wrote:
> > Been meaning to reply back to this thread  been hectic here.
> >
> > My device is pre-release and has a slip case which I believe will be
> > included.
> >
> > Ogg is not included for codec licensing issues...
> >
> > Form factor is excellent as is the build and it will apparently get a
> > bit better over the course of the pre-release period along with the
> > updates to the OS for release.
> >
> > Non-Powered USB...can't charge - not sure about keyboard, but I assume
> > not and it's the micro-USB variety.
> >
> > MiniSD gives you up to 10GB storage with the internal ...   US / Canada
> > maps are preinstalled in much (think it's around1.8GB) of the 2GB
> > internal and non-removable card which is how you get 256 free there.
> >
> > Wimax is next year... I've been told it's "later."
> >
> > No FM radio either...
> >
> >
> > Anything else - I'll likely have an overview blog post up in the next
> > 24-48 hours once i get back to NY have time to think it out a bit with
> > some extended use.
> >
> > If there's something specific you'd like to know, please let me know...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/18/07, *Steve Greenland* < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > wrote:
> >
> > According to John Rudd  < [EMAIL PROTECTED] >:
> > > And, no, it's not about "open and free".  Since the developers in
> > > question are Nokia (since the comment was directed at the release
> > of the
> > > N810 itself, and not a request for more 3rd party development), it's
> > > about how much effort the developers need to put into supporting
> > > something vs. the amount of return they get from supporting it.
> >
> > Actually, it is about being open and free. Nokia promotes the tablet
> > as an open platform, and is using huge amounts of free software as the
> > basis for its product. To ignore ogg-vorbis support, which *is* an
> > important feature for many of us (and far more valuable, to *me*, than
> > WMA and AAC support), and is pretty much the only free-as-in-freedom
> > codec, is a bit of a slap in the face.
> >
> > Some of us do have political agendas, such as promoting the use of
> free
> > software. That Nokia uses our software (as is their right, according
> to
> > our licenses), but then promotes non-free codecs/software, is a bit
> sad.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > --
> > Steve Greenland
> > The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable
> operating
> > system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
> > world.   -- seen on the net
> >
> > ___
> > maemo-users mailing list
> > maemo-users@maemo.org 
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jonathan Greene
> > +1.914.750.8740
> > AIM / iChat - atmasphere
> > gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> > Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
> > blogs - http://www.atmasphere.net/wp  / http://www.maemoapps.com
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > ___
> > maemo-users mailing list
> > maemo-users@maemo.org
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
> ___
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> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>


-- 
Jonathan Greene
+1.914.750.8740
AIM / iChat - atmasphere
gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
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RE: N810 is here

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

Jonathan, thanks for the updates!

 

Nick.

 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jonathan Greene
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 11:38 AM
To: maemo-users@maemo.org
Subject: Re: N810 is here

 

Been meaning to reply back to this thread  been hectic here.

My device is pre-release and has a slip case which I believe will be
included.

Ogg is not included for codec licensing issues... 

Form factor is excellent as is the build and it will apparently get a bit
better over the course of the pre-release period along with the updates to
the OS for release. 

Non-Powered USB...can't charge - not sure about keyboard, but I assume not
and it's the micro-USB variety.

MiniSD gives you up to 10GB storage with the internal ...   US / Canada maps
are preinstalled in much (think it's around1.8GB) of the 2GB internal and
non-removable card which is how you get 256 free there.

Wimax is next year... I've been told it's "later."

No FM radio either... 


Anything else - I'll likely have an overview blog post up in the next 24-48
hours once i get back to NY have time to think it out a bit with some
extended use. 

If there's something specific you'd like to know, please let me know... 





On 10/18/07, Steve Greenland < <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

According to John Rudd  < <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> And, no, it's not about "open and free".  Since the developers in
> question are Nokia (since the comment was directed at the release of the
> N810 itself, and not a request for more 3rd party development), it's 
> about how much effort the developers need to put into supporting
> something vs. the amount of return they get from supporting it.

Actually, it is about being open and free. Nokia promotes the tablet 
as an open platform, and is using huge amounts of free software as the
basis for its product. To ignore ogg-vorbis support, which *is* an
important feature for many of us (and far more valuable, to *me*, than
WMA and AAC support), and is pretty much the only free-as-in-freedom
codec, is a bit of a slap in the face.

Some of us do have political agendas, such as promoting the use of free
software. That Nokia uses our software (as is their right, according to 
our licenses), but then promotes non-free codecs/software, is a bit sad.

Regards,
Steve


--
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the 
world.   -- seen on the net

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-- 
Jonathan Greene
+1.914.750.8740
AIM / iChat - atmasphere
gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
blogs - http://www.atmasphere.net/wp  / http://www.maemoapps.com 

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Re: N810 is here

[Gary Baribault]

Why the heck would they remove the FM Radio?

And go down to 1 memory slot? I guess that one could be because of the
placement of the keyboard.

It sure would be nice if we could charge from the USB and host unpowered
on the USB. I assume that the hosting is a question of support and
battery life.


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



Jonathan Greene wrote:
> Been meaning to reply back to this thread  been hectic here.
> 
> My device is pre-release and has a slip case which I believe will be
> included.
> 
> Ogg is not included for codec licensing issues...
> 
> Form factor is excellent as is the build and it will apparently get a
> bit better over the course of the pre-release period along with the
> updates to the OS for release.
> 
> Non-Powered USB...can't charge - not sure about keyboard, but I assume
> not and it's the micro-USB variety.
> 
> MiniSD gives you up to 10GB storage with the internal ...   US / Canada
> maps are preinstalled in much (think it's around1.8GB) of the 2GB
> internal and non-removable card which is how you get 256 free there.
> 
> Wimax is next year... I've been told it's "later."
> 
> No FM radio either...
> 
> 
> Anything else - I'll likely have an overview blog post up in the next
> 24-48 hours once i get back to NY have time to think it out a bit with
> some extended use.
> 
> If there's something specific you'd like to know, please let me know...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/18/07, *Steve Greenland* < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
> 
> According to John Rudd  < [EMAIL PROTECTED] >:
> > And, no, it's not about "open and free".  Since the developers in
> > question are Nokia (since the comment was directed at the release
> of the
> > N810 itself, and not a request for more 3rd party development), it's
> > about how much effort the developers need to put into supporting
> > something vs. the amount of return they get from supporting it.
> 
> Actually, it is about being open and free. Nokia promotes the tablet
> as an open platform, and is using huge amounts of free software as the
> basis for its product. To ignore ogg-vorbis support, which *is* an
> important feature for many of us (and far more valuable, to *me*, than
> WMA and AAC support), and is pretty much the only free-as-in-freedom
> codec, is a bit of a slap in the face.
> 
> Some of us do have political agendas, such as promoting the use of free
> software. That Nokia uses our software (as is their right, according to
> our licenses), but then promotes non-free codecs/software, is a bit sad.
> 
> Regards,
> Steve
> 
> 
> --
> Steve Greenland
> The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
> system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
> world.   -- seen on the net
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jonathan Greene
> +1.914.750.8740
> AIM / iChat - atmasphere
> gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
> blogs - http://www.atmasphere.net/wp  / http://www.maemoapps.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: N810 is here

[Wayne Fiori]

On 10/18/07, Jonathan Greene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Ogg is not included for codec licensing issues...
>

Care to expand on this point? Which licensing issues?


(from Xiph's FAQ for Vorbis -- http://www.vorbis.com/faq/#flic)

What licensing applies to the Ogg Vorbis format?

The Ogg Vorbis specification is in the public domain. It is
completely free for commercial or noncommercial use. That means that
commercial developers may independently write Ogg Vorbis software
which is compatible with the specification for no charge and without
restrictions of any kind. However, the software packages we have
developed are available under various free/open-source software
licenses with varying allowances and restrictions.

What licensing applies to the included Ogg Vorbis software?

Most (but not all) of our utility software is released under the
terms of the GNU GPL. The libraries and SDKs are released under our
BSD-like license.

Note that developers are still free to use the specification to
write implementations of Ogg Vorbis licensed under other terms.

--
=Wayne
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Re: N810 is here

[Jonathan Greene]

Dev program - http://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/1192708879.html

On 10/17/07, Sergey Udaltsov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Will there be developer's device program, like for n800?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sergey
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Re: N810 is here

[Jonathan Greene]

Been meaning to reply back to this thread  been hectic here.

My device is pre-release and has a slip case which I believe will be
included.

Ogg is not included for codec licensing issues...

Form factor is excellent as is the build and it will apparently get a bit
better over the course of the pre-release period along with the updates to
the OS for release.

Non-Powered USB...can't charge - not sure about keyboard, but I assume not
and it's the micro-USB variety.

MiniSD gives you up to 10GB storage with the internal ...   US / Canada maps
are preinstalled in much (think it's around1.8GB) of the 2GB internal and
non-removable card which is how you get 256 free there.

Wimax is next year... I've been told it's "later."

No FM radio either...


Anything else - I'll likely have an overview blog post up in the next 24-48
hours once i get back to NY have time to think it out a bit with some
extended use.

If there's something specific you'd like to know, please let me know...




On 10/18/07, Steve Greenland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> According to John Rudd  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > And, no, it's not about "open and free".  Since the developers in
> > question are Nokia (since the comment was directed at the release of the
> > N810 itself, and not a request for more 3rd party development), it's
> > about how much effort the developers need to put into supporting
> > something vs. the amount of return they get from supporting it.
>
> Actually, it is about being open and free. Nokia promotes the tablet
> as an open platform, and is using huge amounts of free software as the
> basis for its product. To ignore ogg-vorbis support, which *is* an
> important feature for many of us (and far more valuable, to *me*, than
> WMA and AAC support), and is pretty much the only free-as-in-freedom
> codec, is a bit of a slap in the face.
>
> Some of us do have political agendas, such as promoting the use of free
> software. That Nokia uses our software (as is their right, according to
> our licenses), but then promotes non-free codecs/software, is a bit sad.
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
>
> --
> Steve Greenland
> The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
> system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
> world.   -- seen on the net
>
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-- 
Jonathan Greene
+1.914.750.8740
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gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
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Re: N810 is here

[Steve Greenland]

According to John Rudd  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> And, no, it's not about "open and free".  Since the developers in 
> question are Nokia (since the comment was directed at the release of the 
> N810 itself, and not a request for more 3rd party development), it's 
> about how much effort the developers need to put into supporting 
> something vs. the amount of return they get from supporting it.

Actually, it is about being open and free. Nokia promotes the tablet
as an open platform, and is using huge amounts of free software as the
basis for its product. To ignore ogg-vorbis support, which *is* an
important feature for many of us (and far more valuable, to *me*, than
WMA and AAC support), and is pretty much the only free-as-in-freedom
codec, is a bit of a slap in the face.

Some of us do have political agendas, such as promoting the use of free
software. That Nokia uses our software (as is their right, according to
our licenses), but then promotes non-free codecs/software, is a bit sad.

Regards,
Steve


-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

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Re: N810 is here

[Kahlil Johnson]

On 10/18/07, John Rudd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ralph Angenendt wrote:
> > John Rudd wrote:
> >> Kahlil Johnson wrote:
> >>> Wow, still no OGG when will maemo people ever learn. Who cares
> >>> about AAC, give us OGG.
> >> Huh.  I have many AAC files.  I have no OGG files.  Why should even
> >> remotely care about OGG?
> >
> > How weird. I have no AAC files but a big bunch of ogg files, why should
> > I even remotely care about AAC?
> >
> > IOW: What is the point you are trying to make?
>
> Pretty simple: why should I be upset (or sympathetic to the upset that
> Kahlil was expressing by trashing another format) about the lack of OGG
> support, or the presence of AAC support.
>
>
> >> Or is this one of those "you absolutely need it for interesting content
> >> in Europe, but it's absolutely useless for content in the Americas" type
> >> situations?
> >
> > Huh? What does it have to do with America/Europe? It's about *open* and
> > *free* music codecs - neither AAC nor MP3 are free.
>
> It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with America/Europe. The
> question was asking "_does_ it have something to do with America/Europe"
> ... as in, I'm trying to figure out why OGG support would be so
> important as to induce the comments Kahlil made.
>
> And, no, it's not about "open and free".  Since the developers in
> question are Nokia (since the comment was directed at the release of the
> N810 itself, and not a request for more 3rd party development), it's
> about how much effort the developers need to put into supporting
> something vs. the amount of return they get from supporting it.  Given
> all of the other things that are on Nokia's plate for the internet
> tablet development, why should OGG be a priority?  What thing only comes
> in OGG format, that they need to support now, instead of later?  Or that
> they need to support directly, instead of leaving to the efforts of 3rd
> party support?

Well for one OGG is the default audio format for Linux. FLAC and OGG
are almost supported by default under the Gstreamer framework which is
what Maemo used for it's audio (AFAIK).

The development of yet another audio player exclusively for OGG seems
a waste of development. Adding ogg to gstreamer and enabling the media
player to recognize the format looks like an easier development and
less confusing for it's users. If I get a 3rd party app for OGG I will
need to split my playlists that includes Mp3 / OGG. From a User
Experience it just deteriorate not having OGG support. As for what is
being distributed on OGG-only format. Most of the podcast that I
listen to I get the OGG feed for them. Podcast are one of the
internet's best growing initatives in audio consumption and having a
Linux handheld that can be used as a media player and not support a
primarily Linux standard seems like a bad design decision.

What things come in AAC only form now?

> I'm as interested in open and free as the next person, but there's
> nothing about the comment I was replying to that captures that.
>
>
> > And I don't really see the problem with supporting *also* ogg.
>
> I don't either.  But that's clearly not what the initial request was
> about, or it wouldn't have also attacked another format.  By asserting a
> value judgment about "AAC vs OGG", that then leaves the question of what
> value is actually being implied in that assertion.

AAC was an example, could have pic another proprietary format other
than MP3. Sure Mp3 is the commercial standard for audio but it doesn't
just support mp3 but other formats, formats that are even less used.

> If the person just wanted another format to be supported, then they
> could have just said that.  But they didn't.  If they just wanted an
> open/free format to be supported, then they could have just said that.
> But they didn't.

Well OGG support has been requested many times in this list. Having to
ask for support of OGG wouldn't be my main complain but that they not
just have ignored the support for OGG but also expanding to other
formats that doesn't necessarily add value to me.

In other words, why you give me bacon when I been asking you for more
lettuce for almost 2 years now?

Now just to finish my soapbox, I wonder how really open is this apps.
We all know the framework is open but can you just submit a patch to
the default media player that maemo comes with and expect to have the
change implement on the next version?

-- 
Kahlil Johnson
"Ya tengo GMAIL!!"
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Re: N810 is here

[John Rudd]

Ralph Angenendt wrote:
> John Rudd wrote:
>> Kahlil Johnson wrote:
>>> Wow, still no OGG when will maemo people ever learn. Who cares
>>> about AAC, give us OGG.
>> Huh.  I have many AAC files.  I have no OGG files.  Why should even 
>> remotely care about OGG?
> 
> How weird. I have no AAC files but a big bunch of ogg files, why should
> I even remotely care about AAC?
> 
> IOW: What is the point you are trying to make?

Pretty simple: why should I be upset (or sympathetic to the upset that 
Kahlil was expressing by trashing another format) about the lack of OGG 
support, or the presence of AAC support.


>> Or is this one of those "you absolutely need it for interesting content 
>> in Europe, but it's absolutely useless for content in the Americas" type 
>> situations?
> 
> Huh? What does it have to do with America/Europe? It's about *open* and
> *free* music codecs - neither AAC nor MP3 are free. 

It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with America/Europe. The 
question was asking "_does_ it have something to do with America/Europe" 
... as in, I'm trying to figure out why OGG support would be so 
important as to induce the comments Kahlil made.

And, no, it's not about "open and free".  Since the developers in 
question are Nokia (since the comment was directed at the release of the 
N810 itself, and not a request for more 3rd party development), it's 
about how much effort the developers need to put into supporting 
something vs. the amount of return they get from supporting it.  Given 
all of the other things that are on Nokia's plate for the internet 
tablet development, why should OGG be a priority?  What thing only comes 
in OGG format, that they need to support now, instead of later?  Or that 
they need to support directly, instead of leaving to the efforts of 3rd 
party support?

I'm as interested in open and free as the next person, but there's 
nothing about the comment I was replying to that captures that.


> And I don't really see the problem with supporting *also* ogg.

I don't either.  But that's clearly not what the initial request was 
about, or it wouldn't have also attacked another format.  By asserting a 
value judgment about "AAC vs OGG", that then leaves the question of what 
value is actually being implied in that assertion.

If the person just wanted another format to be supported, then they 
could have just said that.  But they didn't.  If they just wanted an 
open/free format to be supported, then they could have just said that. 
But they didn't.


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Re: N810 is here

[John Rudd]

Krischan Keitsch wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 18. Oktober 2007 schrieb John Rudd:
>> Kahlil Johnson wrote:
>>> Wow, still no OGG when will maemo people ever learn. Who cares
>>> about AAC, give us OGG.
>> Huh.  I have many AAC files.  I have no OGG files.  Why should even
>> remotely care about OGG?
>>
>> Or is this one of those "you absolutely need it for interesting content
>> in Europe, but it's absolutely useless for content in the Americas" type
>> situations?
> 
> 
> 
> ???
> 
> Sorry John, I didn't get your point. What does ogg support have to do with 
> Europe / America?
> 
> 

Just trying to figure out why OGG seems to be a non-issue among people I 
interact with regularly, but a big issue for some others.  It was just a 
hunch that it might be another difference in media formats between here 
and there (which do happen every so often).


> However, we can't have enough codex, eh? 


Choice is good.  But "wanting one more media" is different from trashing 
one (popular) media format with rant inducing requests for another one. 
  Especially when I'm not aware of any real media source that only uses 
OGG (thus making the only way to access their content being "support 
OGG").  So I was just asking why I would want to support OGG at the 
expense of AAC.
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Re: N810 is here

[Ralph Angenendt]

John Rudd wrote:
> Kahlil Johnson wrote:
> > Wow, still no OGG when will maemo people ever learn. Who cares
> > about AAC, give us OGG.
> 
> Huh.  I have many AAC files.  I have no OGG files.  Why should even 
> remotely care about OGG?

How weird. I have no AAC files but a big bunch of ogg files, why should
I even remotely care about AAC?

IOW: What is the point you are trying to make?

> Or is this one of those "you absolutely need it for interesting content 
> in Europe, but it's absolutely useless for content in the Americas" type 
> situations?

Huh? What does it have to do with America/Europe? It's about *open* and
*free* music codecs - neither AAC nor MP3 are free. 

And I don't really see the problem with supporting *also* ogg.

Cheers,

Ralph


pgpH1L2cI4u3I.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: N810 is here

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Donnerstag, 18. Oktober 2007 schrieb John Rudd:
> Kahlil Johnson wrote:
> > Wow, still no OGG when will maemo people ever learn. Who cares
> > about AAC, give us OGG.
>
> Huh.  I have many AAC files.  I have no OGG files.  Why should even
> remotely care about OGG?
>
> Or is this one of those "you absolutely need it for interesting content
> in Europe, but it's absolutely useless for content in the Americas" type
> situations?



???

Sorry John, I didn't get your point. What does ogg support have to do with 
Europe / America?



However, we can't have enough codex, eh? 
Just my 0.02 €

Krischan

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Re: N810 is here

[Bill Broadley]

Can the n810 be powered by usb?
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Re: N810 is here

[hendrik]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 08:19:36PM +0100, Alan Williamson wrote:
> http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/17/nokia-n810-gets-official/
> -- 
Can it listen to a (self-powered) USB keyboard?

-- hendrik
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Re: N810 is here

[John Rudd]

Kahlil Johnson wrote:
> Wow, still no OGG when will maemo people ever learn. Who cares
> about AAC, give us OGG.


Huh.  I have many AAC files.  I have no OGG files.  Why should even 
remotely care about OGG?

Or is this one of those "you absolutely need it for interesting content 
in Europe, but it's absolutely useless for content in the Americas" type 
situations?
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Re: N810 is here

[Acadia Secure Networks]

All,

kidding aside, I have to say that, as I would expect from Nokia, if the 
product ,once launched, "meets or exceeds spec",  then Nokia has indeed 
proven itself as a "fast learning organization" with this product by

a) adding some key functional capabilities that those on this list 
have "vocalized" during the last two years

and

b) "turning" a significantly updated (faster and better, if not 
cheaper) hardware platform in less than 12 months.


It would be nice to know how much longer before the WIMAX version of the 
product is released. But, hey, maybe the Intel WIMAX chipset is there in 
the 810 and is simply awaiting a future firmware upgrade.

On the other hand, because WIMAX is still somewhat "early days" and, 
therefore, balkanized in its deployment around the world, Nokia may be 
planning to launch a distinct version for the (increasing number of) 
markets that are deploying WIMAX services.

Best Regards,

 

John Holmblad

 

Acadia Secure Networks, LLC

* *

*Serving the SmartDigital^TM home, entrepreneurial enterprise, and 
emerging network service provider markets*



Acadia Secure Networks wrote:
> Jonathan,
>
> who cares about the keyboardis the Nokia carrying 
> case for the 810 available (and not just in cyberspace)?
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>  
>
> John Holmblad
>
>  
>
> Acadia Secure Networks, LLC
>
> *Serving the SmartDigital^TM home, entrepreneurial enterprise, and 
> emerging network service provider markets*
>
> * *
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
> Alan Williamson wrote:
>   
>> and?!?!!?!  :@)
>>
>> whats it like?  what has it that the N800 has been begging for?  (execpt 
>> the keyboard that is!)
>>
>> and when will it available in Europe?
>>
>> Jonathan Greene wrote:
>>   
>> 
>>> it's in my pocket!  a few videos here - atmasphere.net/wp 
>>>  and maemoapps.com  as 
>>> well as some poorly shot pics I raced to post on flickr - user atmasphere
>>> 
>>>   
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>> 
>
> ___
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>   

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Re: N810 is here: 45hrs!?!?

[Gopi Flaherty]

On Oct 17, 2007, at 6:33 PM, David Leinbach wrote:

> I think the 45 hours simply refers to how much music they think you  
> should be able to fit on the built-in memory (notice it says "No Wi- 
> Fi connection on your journey? No need, the Nokia N810 offers up to  
> 45 hours of music playback...").

Here's a quick chart of battery capacities:

iPhone: 24h of music, 1.4 Ah battery: 17h / Ah
(17 hours per amp-hour)

iPod Shuffle: 12h of music, 0.22 Ah battery: 55h / Ah

Potential:
Nokia N810:  45h of music, 1.5 Ah battery: 30h / Ah

I think those numbers make it clear that 45 hours of music-only  
direct from flash is somewhat plausible. I'm sure it would require  
very careful hardware and software integration, of course, but it  
could be done.

Thanks,

gopi.


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Re: N810 is here: 45hrs!?!?

[David Leinbach]

I think the 45 hours simply refers to how much music they think you should
be able to fit on the built-in memory (notice it says "No Wi-Fi connection
on your journey? No need, the Nokia N810 offers up to 45 hours of music
playback...").

On 10/17/07, Alan Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> read this on http://www.nokia.com/A4136001?newsid=1160660
>
> "No need, the Nokia N810 offers up to 45 hours of music playback"
>
> how on earth are they getting that!??!?!  My N800 can barely last 8hrs
> on the current battery; so what improves has gone here i wonder
>
> --
> Alan Williamson
>   "a wiki -and- a blog" @ http://www.Blog-City.com/
>
>   b: http://alan.blog-city.com/
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Re: N810 is here: 45hrs!?!?

[James Knott]

Alan Williamson wrote:
> read this on http://www.nokia.com/A4136001?newsid=1160660
>
> "No need, the Nokia N810 offers up to 45 hours of music playback"
>
> how on earth are they getting that!??!?!  My N800 can barely last 8hrs 
> on the current battery; so what improves has gone here i wonder
>
>   
Plug in the AC adapter.  ;-)

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Re: N810 is here: 45hrs!?!?

[Alan Williamson]

read this on http://www.nokia.com/A4136001?newsid=1160660

"No need, the Nokia N810 offers up to 45 hours of music playback"

how on earth are they getting that!??!?!  My N800 can barely last 8hrs 
on the current battery; so what improves has gone here i wonder

-- 
Alan Williamson
  "a wiki -and- a blog" @ http://www.Blog-City.com/

  b: http://alan.blog-city.com/
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Re: N810 is here

[Tilman Vogel]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Collin R. Mulliner schrieb:
>> Did they leave the FM radio in?  I really like that feature on my n800?
>> No OGG is just plain weird, yup.
> 
> OGG is only a nerd feature and also has other problems, so Nokia (and
> other companies) just don't care. Maybe somebody can make a plugin (also
> this won't utilize the DSP).

Which "other problems" do you refer to?

Tilman
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHFoI89ZPu6Yae8lkRAiSsAKCI6rGOV3q/fDzpa84j8RxpY3to2wCdEBiy
DNz9VKd+7ZOnRybdTorE8Dk=
=lVkI
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Re: N810 is here

[Collin R. Mulliner]

> Did they leave the FM radio in?  I really like that feature on my n800?
> No OGG is just plain weird, yup.

OGG is only a nerd feature and also has other problems, so Nokia (and
other companies) just don't care. Maybe somebody can make a plugin (also
this won't utilize the DSP).

--
Collin R. Mulliner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
BETAVERSiON Systems [www.betaversion.net]
info/pgp: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
hack (hak) n., a clever solution to an interesting problem.

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Re: N810 is here

[Rajesh Sankaran]

Now - Carrying case!, That one I need too. Are there any Vegan ( non - 
leather carrying cases ) for N800 ? Thats one thing I need very bad :(.


Thanks

Rajesh

Acadia Secure Networks wrote:

Jonathan,

who cares about the keyboardis the Nokia carrying 
case for the 810 available (and not just in cyberspace)?



Best Regards,

 


John Holmblad

 


Acadia Secure Networks, LLC

*Serving the SmartDigital^TM home, entrepreneurial enterprise, and 
emerging network service provider markets*


* *




 



Alan Williamson wrote:
  

and?!?!!?!  :@)

whats it like?  what has it that the N800 has been begging for?  (execpt 
the keyboard that is!)


and when will it available in Europe?

Jonathan Greene wrote:
  

it's in my pocket!  a few videos here - atmasphere.net/wp 
 and maemoapps.com  as 
well as some poorly shot pics I raced to post on flickr - user atmasphere

  

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Re: N810 is here

[Sergey Udaltsov]

Will there be developer's device program, like for n800?

Cheers,

Sergey
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Re: N810 is here

[George Farris]

On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 14:42 -0500, Kahlil Johnson wrote:
> Wow, still no OGG when will maemo people ever learn. Who cares
> about AAC, give us OGG.

Did they leave the FM radio in?  I really like that feature on my n800?
No OGG is just plain weird, yup.


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Re: N810 is here

[Acadia Secure Networks]

Jonathan,

who cares about the keyboardis the Nokia carrying 
case for the 810 available (and not just in cyberspace)?


Best Regards,

 

John Holmblad

 

Acadia Secure Networks, LLC

*Serving the SmartDigital^TM home, entrepreneurial enterprise, and 
emerging network service provider markets*

* *




 


Alan Williamson wrote:
> and?!?!!?!  :@)
>
> whats it like?  what has it that the N800 has been begging for?  (execpt 
> the keyboard that is!)
>
> and when will it available in Europe?
>
> Jonathan Greene wrote:
>   
>> it's in my pocket!  a few videos here - atmasphere.net/wp 
>>  and maemoapps.com  as 
>> well as some poorly shot pics I raced to post on flickr - user atmasphere
>> 
> ___
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>   

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Re: N810 is here

[Marius Gedminas]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 02:42:17PM -0500, Kahlil Johnson wrote:
> Wow, still no OGG when will maemo people ever learn. Who cares
> about AAC, give us OGG.

I've heard rumours are Nokia won't ever include ogg support because
they're scared of the (supposedly nonexistent) patents (and that after
lobbying hard to make software patents lawful in the EU; which,
thanfully, didn't happen).

Marius Gedminas
-- 
Voodoo Programming:  Things programmers do that they know shouldn't work but
they try anyway, and which sometimes actually work, such as recompiling
everything.
-- Karl Lehenbauer


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Re: N810 is here

[Kahlil Johnson]

Wow, still no OGG when will maemo people ever learn. Who cares
about AAC, give us OGG.

On 10/17/07, Jonathan Greene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> no idea guys ... a least a month away.
>
>
> On 10/17/07, Daniel M German <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan> it's in my pocket!  a few videos here - atmasphere.net/wp and
> maemoapps.com as well as some poorly shot pics I raced to post on
> > Jonathan> flickr - user atmasphere
> >
> > Any idea when/how I can get one (I am in Canada)?
> >
> > --daniel
> >
> > Jonathan> On 10/17/07, Alan Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> >
> >
> http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/17/nokia-n810-gets-official/
> > --
> > Alan Williamson
> >   "a wiki -and- a blog" @ http://www.Blog-City.com/
> >
> >   b: http://alan.blog-city.com/
> > ___
> > maemo-users mailing list
> > maemo-users@maemo.org
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
> >
> > Jonathan> --
> > Jonathan> Jonathan Greene
> > Jonathan> +1.914.750.8740
> > Jonathan> AIM / iChat - atmasphere
> > Jonathan> gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Jonathan> Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
> > Jonathan> blogs - http://www.atmasphere.net/wp   /
> http://www.maemoapps.com
> >
> > Jonathan> ___
> > Jonathan> maemo-users mailing list
> > Jonathan> maemo-users@maemo.org
> > Jonathan>
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Daniel M. German
> > http://turingmachine.org/
> > http://silvernegative.com/
> > dmg (at) uvic (dot) ca
> > replace (at) with @ and (dot) with .
> > ___
> > maemo-users mailing list
> > maemo-users@maemo.org
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jonathan Greene
> +1.914.750.8740
> AIM / iChat - atmasphere
> gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
>
> blogs - http://www.atmasphere.net/wp  / http://www.maemoapps.com
> ___
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>
>


-- 
Kahlil Johnson
"Ya tengo GMAIL!!"
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Re: N810 is here

[Marius Gedminas]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 08:19:36PM +0100, Alan Williamson wrote:
> http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/17/nokia-n810-gets-official/

Slight inaccuracies: 256MB ROM is really the same 256MB flash that you
use to install apps; the USB connector is micro USB, slightly smaller
than mini USB.  Also it doesn't mention that instead of two full-size SD
card slots you get one mini-SD card slot (plus an internal 2GB "memory
card" that you can't pull out and replace).

It's more an alternative to a N800 than an upgrade; for those who wanted
a built-in hardware keyboard.

Still, built-in GPS... Want.

Marius Gedminas
-- 
As easy as 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716


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Re: N810 is here

[Jonathan Greene]

no idea guys ... a least a month away.

On 10/17/07, Daniel M German <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Jonathan> it's in my pocket!  a few videos here - atmasphere.net/wp and
> maemoapps.com as well as some poorly shot pics I raced to post on
> Jonathan> flickr - user atmasphere
>
> Any idea when/how I can get one (I am in Canada)?
>
> --daniel
>
> Jonathan> On 10/17/07, Alan Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/17/nokia-n810-gets-official/
> --
> Alan Williamson
>   "a wiki -and- a blog" @ http://www.Blog-City.com/
>
>   b: http://alan.blog-city.com/
> ___
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>
> Jonathan> --
> Jonathan> Jonathan Greene
> Jonathan> +1.914.750.8740
> Jonathan> AIM / iChat - atmasphere
> Jonathan> gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Jonathan> Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
> Jonathan> blogs - http://www.atmasphere.net/wp   /
> http://www.maemoapps.com
>
> Jonathan> ___
> Jonathan> maemo-users mailing list
> Jonathan> maemo-users@maemo.org
> Jonathan> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>
> --
> --
> Daniel M. German
> http://turingmachine.org/
> http://silvernegative.com/
> dmg (at) uvic (dot) ca
> replace (at) with @ and (dot) with .
> ___
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>



-- 
Jonathan Greene
+1.914.750.8740
AIM / iChat - atmasphere
gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
blogs - http://www.atmasphere.net/wp  / http://www.maemoapps.com
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Re: N810 is here

[Daniel M German]

 Jonathan> it's in my pocket!  a few videos here - atmasphere.net/wp and 
maemoapps.com as well as some poorly shot pics I raced to post on
 Jonathan> flickr - user atmasphere

Any idea when/how I can get one (I am in Canada)?

--daniel

 Jonathan> On 10/17/07, Alan Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/17/nokia-n810-gets-official/
--
Alan Williamson
  "a wiki -and- a blog" @ http://www.Blog-City.com/
   
  b: http://alan.blog-city.com/
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 Jonathan> --
 Jonathan> Jonathan Greene
 Jonathan> +1.914.750.8740
 Jonathan> AIM / iChat - atmasphere
 Jonathan> gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Jonathan> Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
 Jonathan> blogs - http://www.atmasphere.net/wp   / http://www.maemoapps.com

 Jonathan> ___
 Jonathan> maemo-users mailing list
 Jonathan> maemo-users@maemo.org
 Jonathan> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

-- 
--
Daniel M. German  
http://turingmachine.org/
http://silvernegative.com/
dmg (at) uvic (dot) ca
replace (at) with @ and (dot) with .
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Re: N810 is here

[Jonathan Greene]

wen the device arrives in final form it should be there as well.  4-5
weeks...

On 10/17/07, Laurent MARTIN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Subject: N810 is here
>
> ... but where is ITOS2008?! I definitely want to install it on my *old*
> N800...
> --
> *Laurent*, Nantes (FR) - *http://blog.lmartin.fr*<http://blog.lmartin.fr/>
> *Apple MacBook Pro 15"*
> *Nokia Internet Tablet N800*
> *Palm Treo 650 (unlocked GSM)*
>
>
>
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>


-- 
Jonathan Greene
+1.914.750.8740
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gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
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Re: N810 is here

[Alan Williamson]

and?!?!!?!  :@)

whats it like?  what has it that the N800 has been begging for?  (execpt 
the keyboard that is!)

and when will it available in Europe?

Jonathan Greene wrote:
> it's in my pocket!  a few videos here - atmasphere.net/wp 
>  and maemoapps.com  as 
> well as some poorly shot pics I raced to post on flickr - user atmasphere
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Re: N810 is here

[Laurent MARTIN]

Subject: N810 is here
... but where is ITOS2008?! I definitely want to install it on my  
*old* N800...

--
Laurent, Nantes (FR) - http://blog.lmartin.fr
Apple MacBook Pro 15"
Nokia Internet Tablet N800
Palm Treo 650 (unlocked GSM)


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Re: N810 is here

[Jonathan Greene]

it's in my pocket!  a few videos here - atmasphere.net/wp and
maemoapps.comas well as some poorly shot pics I raced to post on
flickr - user atmasphere

On 10/17/07, Alan Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/17/nokia-n810-gets-official/
> --
> Alan Williamson
>   "a wiki -and- a blog" @ http://www.Blog-City.com/
>
>   b: http://alan.blog-city.com/
> ___
> maemo-users mailing list
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> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>



-- 
Jonathan Greene
+1.914.750.8740
AIM / iChat - atmasphere
gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
blogs - http://www.atmasphere.net/wp  / http://www.maemoapps.com
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N810 is here

[Alan Williamson]

http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/17/nokia-n810-gets-official/
-- 
Alan Williamson
  "a wiki -and- a blog" @ http://www.Blog-City.com/

  b: http://alan.blog-city.com/
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