Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-23 Thread Brad Knowles 
On Dec 23, 2009, at 1:12 PM, Derrick Wooden wrote:

> I'm well aware that SMTP doesn't mean instant.

Regretfully, you are the exception.  Most people don't seem to get this concept 
-- even people like my wife, and I've been trying to pound this one into her 
brain for ten years.

> I'm just looking at a solution that can cut 1E6 emails being delivered in 12
> hours down to say 4 hours.  With a fast server, correct MTA optimization and
> proper Mailman setup could this be attainable?

I believe so, yes.  However, optimization would have to be done at all levels, 
not just the MTA.

If you've got that many recipients, then you're probably seeing a lot of Python 
pickle contention during initial list delivery, and you'd want to break that 
down into a number of sub-lists.  If you have a million recipients, then a 
thousand sublists with a thousand subscribers each would probably be overkill, 
but a hundred sublists with ten thousand subscribers each probably would not be 
enough.

Using postfix, you can tune things for maximum parallelization, and eliminate 
things like unnecessary DNS queries and blacklist checks on outbound (because 
you've already done them on inbound, or it's an announce-only list and they 
don't need to be done at all).  You can also tune things so that any messages 
which don't get delivered right away can get pushed off onto another "slow 
delivery" server, thus keeping the primary server pumping as fast as possible.  
For an announce-only list, you might also want to consider putting the primary 
mail queues on solid-state disk -- you shouldn't need a particularly large SSD 
for the primary server if the "slow delivery" server has sufficient storage.

Your primary bottlenecks are going to be disk latency and locking contention.  
If you can eliminate or minimize those, everything else should flow as fast as 
your Internet connection allows.

> The Barack Obama email campaign used Postfix for their MTA and PHP Mailer to
> deliver their newsletters.  

How many people did they deliver to?  How many machines did they have doing 
delivery?  How often did they send out messages?  How large were those 
messages?  Did they do DKIM signing on each message?  There's lots of variables 
here that could affect their numbers relative to what you might be able to 
achieve.

> I'm using a package install of Mailman along with Exim through cPanel.  I
> now know that this setup is not optimal and needs lots of tweaking.  I'm
> looking into VERP also based on helpful information in the FAQs.

I've done the best I can to encode as much of my knowledge as possible into the 
FAQs.  Pretty much everything is there, or I point to references where the rest 
of the information can be found.  The key is knowing what you're looking for 
and when you've found it.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-23 Thread Derrick Wooden 

I'm well aware that SMTP doesn't mean instant.

I'm just looking at a solution that can cut 1E6 emails being delivered in 12
hours down to say 4 hours.  With a fast server, correct MTA optimization and
proper Mailman setup could this be attainable?
  
The Barack Obama email campaign used Postfix for their MTA and PHP Mailer to
deliver their newsletters.  

I'm using a package install of Mailman along with Exim through cPanel.  I
now know that this setup is not optimal and needs lots of tweaking.  I'm
looking into VERP also based on helpful information in the FAQs.


Bernd Petrovitsch-2 wrote:
> 
> On Don, 2009-12-17 at 17:04 -0800, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
>> Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to
>> be 
>> the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will
>> take 
> Do I take the flame bait?;-)
> 
> Whatever you understand in detail under a "fast MTA" (and even if it
> would be the case), it doesn't really matter IMHO because
> a) Email/SMTP never was anywhere near "realtime" (though many people
>expect mails to be delivered in seconds),
> b) if your local Internet connection is too small, it doesn't help to
>have the fastest MTA[0],
> c) the local MTA resolves various hostnames and that could be "slow" and
>will involved timeouts (where every MTA out there just can wait)[0],
> d) if your hardware (RAM, disks) are too small or slow, the MTA really
>can't do anything (and I expect all widespread MTAS to reasonably
>minimize the I/O and memory anyways). That may be irrelevant on the
>usual small mailserver with average nowadays hardware but if you have
>e.g. a small ISP with >25K mailboxes and (on the average) 1E6 mails
>per day ("after" using DNSBLs blocking lots of spam/viruses before
>even sending "EHLO"), it
>looks quite different,
> e) b) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
>remote side[0],
> f) c) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
>remote side[0],
> g) the remote MTA may do extensive spam/virus checking, grey-listing,
>... - taking time - causing "slow" mail delivery you have absolutely
>no influence on the remote side[0].
> Of course the timeouts and waiting from above cost next to no
> resources/performance locally (so the MTA(s) usually deliver several
> emails in parallel without any problems as long as the box(es) do not
> trash) but it costs total time (which makes email delivery "slow").
> 
> So I don't think that saving 10% (or even 50%) local "speed" will make a
> significant difference (perhaps if you have a *really* large setup - but
> even then deploying one more box is cheaper than investing a day to
> improve the local performance. OK, saving a box is better for the world
> as such ).
> 
>   Bernd
> 
> [0]: And changing the local MTA won't solve that.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-23 Thread Brad Knowles 
On Dec 23, 2009, at 11:24 AM, Derrick Wooden wrote:

> Brad, upon reading this thread again you are correct.  It was NOT implied
> that MySQL would speed up email delivery, but rather MySQL would be a better
> database solution.

As a database, yes -- MySQL is better at that job than using Python "pickles", 
which is what Mailman does today.  Unfortunately, there are no official 
interfaces between the current version of Mailman and MySQL.  There is the 
MySQL Member Adapter, but it's not officially supported (so far as I know), so 
the best you can get with the current version is to run a script which 
periodically extracts the information from MySQL and then puts that into 
Mailman, and vice-versa.

Mailman3 will have a much improved database interface that will include MySQL, 
but it's not here yet.

> Brad, I would be interested in contracting your services.  Please email me
> off the forum.  derrickwooden AT gmail

Unfortunately, I am not in a position to do this kind of consulting anymore.  
I'll give advice for free, but that's the best I can do at the moment.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-23 Thread Derrick Wooden 


Brad Knowles-3 wrote:
> I don't know of any way that MySQL would factor into this discussion.  Can
> you provide a reference?
Brad, upon reading this thread again you are correct.  It was NOT implied
that MySQL would speed up email delivery, but rather MySQL would be a better
database solution.

Reference:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/msg02401.html

Brad, I would be interested in contracting your services.  Please email me
off the forum.  derrickwooden AT gmail

I have a dedicated server that will solely be used for Mailman.  6GB of RAM,
Intel 2.6 GHz quad core.  Am interested in delivering email as fast as
possible.



Brad Knowles-3 wrote:
> 
> On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Derrick Wooden wrote:
> 
>> I have been doing a lot of reading along that wise.  As a result I'm
>> setting
>> up the new server with no cPanel and will use Postfix as my MTA.  I will
>> do
>> a clean install of Mailman 2.13 so that I can be on the same page as most
>> users.
> 
> It's not just the MTA.  It's also the configuration.  I could build a
> Sendmail configuration that could beat the pants off an out-of-the-box
> postfix configuration, if the list was large enough and I had enough
> hardware to do the job right.  I'm sure that we could find people who
> could do the same with Exim.
> 
> IMO, using postfix will give you a good initial default configuration and
> it won't take as much tweaking to improve the mail delivery performance,
> but that's just a personal opinion.
> 
>> I read in a 2004 (or earlier thread) where using MySQL db tables would
>> also
>> increase the speed.  I will also utilize this option.
> 
> I don't know of any way that MySQL would factor into this discussion.  Can
> you provide a reference?
> 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-23 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Bernd Petrovitsch writes:
 > On Don, 2009-12-17 at 17:04 -0800, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
 > > Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to be 
 > > the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will 
 > > take 
 > Do I take the flame bait?;-)
 > 
 > Whatever you understand in detail under a "fast MTA" (and even if it
 > would be the case), it doesn't really matter IMHO because

"Fast MTA" does have a meaningful definition in list management.  For
Mailman purposes, a "fast MTA" is one whose default settings keep the
pipe full and reduce the backlog quickly, and (secondarily) uses few
host resources in doing so.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-23 Thread Luigi Rosa 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Bernd Petrovitsch said the following on 23/12/09 11:20:

> a) Email/SMTP never was anywhere near "realtime" (though many people
>expect mails to be delivered in seconds),

Unfortunately, too much users tend to forget this basic concept: SMTP is not
designed to be an instant message service.


Ciao,
luigi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-23 Thread Bernd Petrovitsch 
On Don, 2009-12-17 at 17:04 -0800, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to be 
> the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will take 
Do I take the flame bait?;-)

Whatever you understand in detail under a "fast MTA" (and even if it
would be the case), it doesn't really matter IMHO because
a) Email/SMTP never was anywhere near "realtime" (though many people
   expect mails to be delivered in seconds),
b) if your local Internet connection is too small, it doesn't help to
   have the fastest MTA[0],
c) the local MTA resolves various hostnames and that could be "slow" and
   will involved timeouts (where every MTA out there just can wait)[0],
d) if your hardware (RAM, disks) are too small or slow, the MTA really
   can't do anything (and I expect all widespread MTAS to reasonably
   minimize the I/O and memory anyways). That may be irrelevant on the
   usual small mailserver with average nowadays hardware but if you have
   e.g. a small ISP with >25K mailboxes and (on the average) 1E6 mails
   per day ("after" using DNSBLs blocking lots of spam/viruses before
   even sending "EHLO"), it
   looks quite different,
e) b) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
   remote side[0],
f) c) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
   remote side[0],
g) the remote MTA may do extensive spam/virus checking, grey-listing,
   ... - taking time - causing "slow" mail delivery you have absolutely
   no influence on the remote side[0].
Of course the timeouts and waiting from above cost next to no
resources/performance locally (so the MTA(s) usually deliver several
emails in parallel without any problems as long as the box(es) do not
trash) but it costs total time (which makes email delivery "slow").

So I don't think that saving 10% (or even 50%) local "speed" will make a
significant difference (perhaps if you have a *really* large setup - but
even then deploying one more box is cheaper than investing a day to
improve the local performance. OK, saving a box is better for the world
as such ).

Bernd

[0]: And changing the local MTA won't solve that.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-22 Thread Brad Knowles 
On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Derrick Wooden wrote:

> I have been doing a lot of reading along that wise.  As a result I'm setting
> up the new server with no cPanel and will use Postfix as my MTA.  I will do
> a clean install of Mailman 2.13 so that I can be on the same page as most
> users.

It's not just the MTA.  It's also the configuration.  I could build a Sendmail 
configuration that could beat the pants off an out-of-the-box postfix 
configuration, if the list was large enough and I had enough hardware to do the 
job right.  I'm sure that we could find people who could do the same with Exim.

IMO, using postfix will give you a good initial default configuration and it 
won't take as much tweaking to improve the mail delivery performance, but 
that's just a personal opinion.

> I read in a 2004 (or earlier thread) where using MySQL db tables would also
> increase the speed.  I will also utilize this option.

I don't know of any way that MySQL would factor into this discussion.  Can you 
provide a reference?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-17 Thread Derrick Wooden 


Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> IOW, the mere mention of cPanel (or Plesk) causes Mailman-Users to
> abort and dump core, which is not very useful to you.
> 

I have been doing a lot of reading along that wise.  As a result I'm setting
up the new server with no cPanel and will use Postfix as my MTA.  I will do
a clean install of Mailman 2.13 so that I can be on the same page as most
users.

I read in a 2004 (or earlier thread) where using MySQL db tables would also
increase the speed.  I will also utilize this option.



Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> d-woo writes:
> 
>  > When I first started experimenting with MailMan 3 years ago, I used
> cPanel
>  > to add/remove my mailing lists, but have since learned how to do a few
>  > things via SSH.  Is the implication that cPanel would hinder the
> optimal
>  > performance of the MTA and/or Mailman?
> 
> Maybe a little.  The big issue is that it hinders *your* performance,
> because your questions on Mailman lists will often get the totally
> non-responsive response
> 
> See FAQ .
> 
> IOW, the mere mention of cPanel (or Plesk) causes Mailman-Users to
> abort and dump core, which is not very useful to you.
> 
> P.S.  Read that FAQ.
> 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-17 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
d-woo writes:

 > When I first started experimenting with MailMan 3 years ago, I used cPanel
 > to add/remove my mailing lists, but have since learned how to do a few
 > things via SSH.  Is the implication that cPanel would hinder the optimal
 > performance of the MTA and/or Mailman?

Maybe a little.  The big issue is that it hinders *your* performance,
because your questions on Mailman lists will often get the totally
non-responsive response

See FAQ .

IOW, the mere mention of cPanel (or Plesk) causes Mailman-Users to
abort and dump core, which is not very useful to you.

P.S.  Read that FAQ.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-17 Thread Derrick Wooden 

Additional information:

Mailman 2.1.11.cp3
MTA - Exim 4

Exim Config:
queue_only

#smtp_connect_backlog = 200
#smtp_accept_max = 500

auto_thaw = 1d
ignore_bounce_errors_after = 12h
timeout_frozen_after = 2d

split_spool_directory = yes
queue_run_max = 20
remote_max_parallel = 20
smtp_connect_backlog = 50
smtp_accept_max = 100
deliver_queue_load_max = 25

# turn off writing of logs to /var/spool/exim_incoming/msglog/
no_message_logs



Derrick Wooden wrote:
> 
> 
> Adam McGreggor-2 wrote:
>> 
>> You've not said which MTA, how that's been tweaked, how the spools are
>> handled (or indeed, partitioned), what else the machine's doing, the
>> connectivity of the machine, ISP infrastructure, destination servers,
>> geography/latency, or a ~bundle~ of other things.
>> 
> 
> The MTA is Exim.  I paid someone to set up this server for Mailman 3 years
> ago, but am not certain about partitioning.  I have access to the
> dedicated server.  If given directions I could give you which ever
> settings are needed.  
> 
> The 4 partions are: 
> /dev/sda5, mounted at / [root] (227GB/136GB free)
> /dev/sda1, mounted at /boot (99MB/78MB free), 
> /dev/sda3, mounted at /tmp (1012 MB/927MB free), and 
> /tmp, mounted at /var/tmp (also 1012MB/927MB free)
> 
> The machine only has one domain on it and is used specifically for
> newsletters using Mailman.  Nothing else.  Not even website pages. The
> server is hosted by ThePlanet.com and the servers were in Houston when
> this was setup 3 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Adam McGreggor-2 wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 04:14:03PM -0600, Derrick Wooden wrote:
>>> I will be upgrading to:
>>> Xeon 3450 - SATA - Quad Core 2.66 GHz - 250 GB IDE/SATA, 7200rpm - 4GB
>>> DDR3
>>> RAM; RedHat/cPanel
>> 
>> Regarding cPanel, see .
>> 
>>> and wanted to know if my email deliver would be much faster.
>> 
>> You've not said which MTA, how that's been tweaked, how the spools are
>> handled (or indeed, partitioned), what else the machine's doing, the
>> connectivity of the machine, ISP infrastructure, destination servers,
>> geography/latency, or a ~bundle~ of other things.
>> 
>>> Any assistance/direction with server configuration would be greatly
>>> appreciated.
>> 
>> There have been some recent posts on this, that I didn't pay much
>> attention to, but they'll be in the list archive. ISTR djb's Qmail
>> being involved by the OP, and others suggesting the use of a different
>> MTA.
>> 
>> -- 
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>> 
> 
> 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-17 Thread d-woo 


Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> 
> Also, if it's a dedicated server, why are you using cpanel?
> 

When I first started experimenting with MailMan 3 years ago, I used cPanel
to add/remove my mailing lists, but have since learned how to do a few
things via SSH.  Is the implication that cPanel would hinder the optimal
performance of the MTA and/or Mailman?


Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> 
> 
> Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to be 
> the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will
> take 
> much longer).  Check out the FAQ for performance, and as Adam mentioned,
> the 
> list archives)
> 
> FWIW, before you change hardware, have you looked at which resources are 
> constrained? Also, if it's a dedicated server, why are you using cpanel?
> 
> z!
> 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-17 Thread d-woo 


Adam McGreggor-2 wrote:
> 
> You've not said which MTA, how that's been tweaked, how the spools are
> handled (or indeed, partitioned), what else the machine's doing, the
> connectivity of the machine, ISP infrastructure, destination servers,
> geography/latency, or a ~bundle~ of other things.
> 

The MTA is Exim.  I paid someone to set up this server for Mailman 3 years
ago, but am not certain about partitioning.  I have access to the dedicated
server.  If given directions I could give you which ever settings are
needed.  

The 4 partions are: 
/dev/sda5, mounted at / [root] (227GB/136GB free)
/dev/sda1, mounted at /boot (99MB/78MB free), 
/dev/sda3, mounted at /tmp (1012 MB/927MB free), and 
/tmp, mounted at /var/tmp (also 1012MB/927MB free)

The machine only has one domain on it and is used specifically for
newsletters using Mailman.  Nothing else.  Not even website pages. The
server is hosted by ThePlanet.com and the servers were in Houston when this
was setup 3 years ago.



Adam McGreggor-2 wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 04:14:03PM -0600, Derrick Wooden wrote:
>> I will be upgrading to:
>> Xeon 3450 - SATA - Quad Core 2.66 GHz - 250 GB IDE/SATA, 7200rpm - 4GB
>> DDR3
>> RAM; RedHat/cPanel
> 
> Regarding cPanel, see .
> 
>> and wanted to know if my email deliver would be much faster.
> 
> You've not said which MTA, how that's been tweaked, how the spools are
> handled (or indeed, partitioned), what else the machine's doing, the
> connectivity of the machine, ISP infrastructure, destination servers,
> geography/latency, or a ~bundle~ of other things.
> 
>> Any assistance/direction with server configuration would be greatly
>> appreciated.
> 
> There have been some recent posts on this, that I didn't pay much
> attention to, but they'll be in the list archive. ISTR djb's Qmail
> being involved by the OP, and others suggesting the use of a different
> MTA.
> 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-17 Thread Carl Zwanzig 


Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to be 
the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will take 
much longer).  Check out the FAQ for performance, and as Adam mentioned, the 
list archives)


FWIW, before you change hardware, have you looked at which resources are 
constrained? Also, if it's a dedicated server, why are you using cpanel?


z!

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-17 Thread Adam McGreggor 
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 04:14:03PM -0600, Derrick Wooden wrote:
> I will be upgrading to:
> Xeon 3450 - SATA - Quad Core 2.66 GHz - 250 GB IDE/SATA, 7200rpm - 4GB DDR3
> RAM; RedHat/cPanel

Regarding cPanel, see .

> and wanted to know if my email deliver would be much faster.

You've not said which MTA, how that's been tweaked, how the spools are
handled (or indeed, partitioned), what else the machine's doing, the
connectivity of the machine, ISP infrastructure, destination servers,
geography/latency, or a ~bundle~ of other things.

> Any assistance/direction with server configuration would be greatly
> appreciated.

There have been some recent posts on this, that I didn't pay much
attention to, but they'll be in the list archive. ISTR djb's Qmail
being involved by the OP, and others suggesting the use of a different
MTA.

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[Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

2009-12-17 Thread Derrick Wooden 
I'm currently using a dedicated cPanel server with the following specs.

Xeon 3060 - Dual Core 2.4 GHz - 250GB SATA-II HDD - 2GB DDR2 RAM;
RedHat/cPanel

It currently takes me about 6 hours to deliver 800K emails.  It's an
announce only list with 20 sublists of 40K addresses.

I will be upgrading to:
Xeon 3450 - SATA - Quad Core 2.66 GHz - 250 GB IDE/SATA, 7200rpm - 4GB DDR3
RAM; RedHat/cPanel

and wanted to know if my email deliver would be much faster.

Any assistance/direction with server configuration would be greatly
appreciated.

-Derrick Wooden
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