Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Charles Marcus]

On 12/10/2007, Mark Sapiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> If you aren't getting the summary, either cron isn't running checkdbs
> or you are so diligent at dealing with held messages that there never
> are any outstanding when checkdbs runs.

Duh... ok, there is no daily cron job for it (I had someone help me get 
this server set up a long time ago before I was comfortable doing stuff 
like this myself, and guess he forgot to do this)...

Mailman is in the cron group, so according to the Gentoo docs (thats 
what I'm using), a simple:

cd /usr/local/mailman/cron && crontab -u mailman crontab.in

should do it?

Thanks again!

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Brad Knowles]

On 12/10/07, Charles Marcus wrote:

>>  Mailman sends a summary every morning with the From: and Subject: of
>>  the held posts waiting moderator action.
>
>  Where is this option? I don't currently get these, but I'd like to...

That's a standard Mailman cron job.  You can also turn on immediate 
notices, if you want.  However, there should not be any way you can 
turn off the standard daily notices, short of disabling that cron job.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Mark Sapiro]

Charles Marcus wrote:

>On 12/10/2007, Mark Sapiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>> Mailman sends a summary every morning with the From: and Subject: of
>> the held posts waiting moderator action.
>
>Where is this option? I don't currently get these, but I'd like to...


There is no option for this per se. The option (admin_immed_notify) is
to get or not get the per message notices. The daily summary is
produced by cron/checkdbs which should run daily at 8:00 a.m. if you
have the default Mailman crontab installed.

If you aren't getting the summary, either cron isn't running checkdbs
or you are so diligent at dealing with held messages that there never
are any outstanding when checkdbs runs.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Charles Marcus]

On 12/10/2007, Mark Sapiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Mailman sends a summary every morning with the From: and Subject: of
> the held posts waiting moderator action.

Where is this option? I don't currently get these, but I'd like to...

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Brad Knowles]

On 12/9/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:

>  False positive means it's legit mail that is in my spam folder.  Using my
>  ISP's defaults.

Sounds like you need to talk to your ISP about how those defaults can 
be changed to be something more suitable for you.

>  Anything in moderation for MM must be clicked on.

Not true.  At least, not entirely true.

If there's anything you want to allow through, then yes -- those have 
to be clicked on.

Everything else could be left in the default "Defer" mode, and then 
you simply click the check box at the top or bottom of the page which 
says "Discard all mail marked 'Defer'", then hit the "Submit Your 
Changes" button.

> One at a time.  3 clicks
>  per sender (which means per spam most of the time) if I want to set the
>  address to auto-discard and ban the spammer from joining the list, in
>  addition to simply discarding the email.

See above.  All the stuff you want thrown away should be able to be 
thrown away with just one and only one click.

You should only have to click on anything else if you want to reject 
it, allow it through, or take some other less typical action.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Brad Knowles]

On 12/10/07, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>  There are alternatives such as SpamBayes which may be easier to
>  integrate.

Everything is being done by her ISP, so I don't know that it's useful 
to discuss alternative solutions.  Either way, she's got to live with 
whatever they give her, at least up until the point she reconsiders 
whether or not she's going to move at least her mailing list services 
to a different provider that might be more responsive.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Brad Knowles]

On 12/9/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:

>  But this isn't useful to me.  Oh, I'm sure some of the really bad spam
>  would go away, but this is a health list and so there are *a lot* of false
>  positives because we mention a lot of spam-like keywords.  So I'd have to
>  set the spam level pretty high.

It depends on how your ISP runs SpamAssassin.  It is possible to run 
it in a manner where the user has full control over what rules and 
what scores will be applied to their mail, and when you train 
SpamAssassin by feeding it examples of spam that has gotten through 
or ham that has accidentally been mis-identified, these rules and 
scores will be updated as necessary.

I've been seriously fighting spam for about twelve years (as the Sr. 
Internet Mail Administrator for AOL, I wrote some of the earliest 
comprehensive anti-spam measures for sendmail, which I then 
re-published to the community), and I've spoken on this subject at 
conferences, I've been a member of the IETF/IRTF Anti-Spam Research 
Group, and was the head of the Best Current Practices sub-group.

I can tell you, with some authority, that the only effective way to 
run SpamAssassin is to do so using these per-user methods.  And that 
if you (the ISP) do actually run it in this way, you really can quite 
effectively catch or identify most spam, even in environments where 
you would otherwise tend to generate excessive false positive matches.


Of course, that doesn't mean that your ISP is actually going to do 
any of these things.

>  Here's what I want:
>
>  Subscribers who are unmoderated to be whitelisted.
>  Non-subscribers who I have set to auto-accept to be whitelisted.

That doesn't work, either.  Spammers troll the archives of mailing 
lists to find addresses they can use -- to spam those mailing lists, 
among others.  You can't just auto-whitelist all addresses in certain 
classes.

>  Potential spam from the moderated box to be sent to my graymail (my ISP's
>   name (or maybe a common name, I don't know) for suspected spam--they send
>   an email each night with the from and subject headers).

No, that's not a common name.  I've been in this business for nearly 
twenty years, and in all that time, I have never heard this 
particular term used in this manner.  More common terms are folders 
with names like "quarantine" or "probable spam".

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Brad Knowles]

On 12/9/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:

>>>  Is there a way *I* can without the ISP doing anything?
>
>>Yes.  Set up your spam filters under "Privacy options..." then
>>  "Spam filters".
>
>  There is nothing called spam filters in privacy options.

Then your ISP has installed a pretty non-standard version of Mailman. 
The standard version has this feature.  Again, you need to talk to 
your ISP.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Cyndi Norwitz writes:

 > This will not work in my situation for more than a certain percentage of my
 > non-member posts.  The details aren't important (to this list anyway).

Sure, but you're being nibbled to death by mice.  Everything that you
can offload onto other people is more time for you to spend on the
service you want to provide.  In my personal experience that "works"
in the sense that a number of people do go to the trouble to save me
time, and some even express gratitude for the chance to help.  YMMV,
of course.

 > False positive means it's legit mail that is in my spam folder.  Using my
 > ISP's defaults.

Well, those defaults are not well-tuned to your list.  (You obviously
know they're not working; my point is that there's a very good chance
that they can be tuned a *lot* better.)  Timing is up to you, but my
advice is to get in touch with your ISP early and often and see if
they'll give you some access to tuning SA (SpamAssassin) scores for
rules that give you a lot of false positives, and to training SA's
adaptive filters against a pile of your list mail.

BTW, I see that you have checked for SA headers in your list mail and
not found them.  If they're using something else, a lot of what has
been said about SA applies to most filter software to some degree.
And if they're not using anything, the sooner they start, the better
for everybody.

Regards,

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:44:29 +0900

> If the spam problem is too great, I may have to disallow non-member posts
> except for people who write me asking to be put on an approved list.  I
> have several regular posters who are not subscribers by their own choice
> (their posts are generally newsletters).

   This kind of poster might best be served by having them subscribe and
   set their subscription to no-mail.  This also is a useful strategy for
   members with multiple addresses.

This will not work in my situation for more than a certain percentage of my
non-member posts.  The details aren't important (to this list anyway).

> No.  I said I don't want my unmoderated members to get their posts
> held due to having keywords that match spam.  Spam filters always
> have false positives.  In my experience, SA has a ton of false
> positives on my list posts.

   Please be more specific about "false positive".  If you mean according
   to the default setting of "5.0 is spam", you might still get rid of a
   *lot* of spam by raising that to 10.0 without false positives.

False positive means it's legit mail that is in my spam folder.  Using my
ISP's defaults.

> Yes, that is acceptable, if I can access them.  But I don't want spam to 
be
> left in my moderation box.

   How does your graymail work?  It sounded to me like it was just
   another moderation box.  Now you have two, as I understand it.  This
   may be a win for you, but I don't see why it would be offhand.

Graymail is a list of from addresses and subject headers of every email
there.  If it's all spam, I scan and ignore.  It goes away forever after 7
days (my setting).

Anything in moderation for MM must be clicked on.  One at a time.  3 clicks
per sender (which means per spam most of the time) if I want to set the
address to auto-discard and ban the spammer from joining the list, in
addition to simply discarding the email.

False positives are far easier to deal with in MM moderation than in
graymail, but my ISP is about to come out with a better version of graymail
that may reduce the workload.

Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Cyndi Norwitz writes:

 >Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:34:45 -0800
 >From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > 
 >How about rejecting or discarding non-member posts instead of holding
 >them. does that help?
 > 
 > If the spam problem is too great, I may have to disallow non-member posts
 > except for people who write me asking to be put on an approved list.  I
 > have several regular posters who are not subscribers by their own choice
 > (their posts are generally newsletters).

This kind of poster might best be served by having them subscribe and
set their subscription to no-mail.  This also is a useful strategy for
members with multiple addresses.

 > My preference is to allow non-member posts but moderate them
 > (except for the few I put an auto-allow on).

Auto-allow non-members are a good candidate for subscribe-and-no-mail.
It could work for the "other" non-members, depending on how they find
out about your list(s).  If people's posts are urgent (at least to
them), subscribe-and-no-mail is not a great strategy, of course.  My
lists are like that (bug reports on software), but I've found it to be
a tolerable compromise nevertheless.  Even people who very rarely post
are often happy to to have an easy way to get that "free pass" (as
long as it doesn't mean they get unwanted mail from my lists).

 > No.  I said I don't want my unmoderated members to get their posts held due
 > to having keywords that match spam.  Spam filters always have false
 > positives.  In my experience, SA has a ton of false positives on my list
 > posts.

Please be more specific about "false positive".  If you mean according
to the default setting of "5.0 is spam", you might still get rid of a
*lot* of spam by raising that to 10.0 without false positives.

 > Yes, that is acceptable, if I can access them.  But I don't want spam to be
 > left in my moderation box.

How does your graymail work?  It sounded to me like it was just
another moderation box.  Now you have two, as I understand it.  This
may be a win for you, but I don't see why it would be offhand.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 22:19:50 -0800
   From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   So if I understand, you want spam filtering to apply only to
   non-members who aren't in accept_these_nonmembers.

That would be my preference.  But I would accept any form of spam filtering
and then simply work with it to reduce my workload as much as possible.

   You aren't going to be able to do that unless sonic installs the
   SpamAssassin patch referred to earlier in this thread or something
   similar.

   What that patch allows is setting a SpamAssassin 'hold' score and a
   SpamAssassin 'discard' score and a member bonus for being a member or
   in accept_these_nonmembers. If you set the member bonus high enough,
   no member post would ever be held or discarded.

This would work.

   The problem with that is those settings are global, not per-list. The
   patch could always be modified to make the settings per-list, but that
   makes it less likely you'd ever see it installed.

Nodding.  There are pros and cons to not running your own server.  

As for whether or not I actually see false positives...yes, I got several a
week from my list posts alone.  On lists that totalled a couple hundred
legit posts a week.  The spam filter would catch them not just for medical
words but for being from the wrong ISP or setting up their email program
not quite right, using the wrong phrase, and so forth.

Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Cyndi Norwitz writes:

 > But this isn't useful to me.  Oh, I'm sure some of the really bad spam
 > would go away, but this is a health list and so there are *a lot* of false
 > positives because we mention a lot of spam-like keywords.  So I'd have to
 > set the spam level pretty high.

Heh.  You're asking a lot of the current technology; if I were you,
I'd take up a collection and hire a consultant.  That said ...

Are you sure you get a lot of false positives?  Spam filtering is more
than just looking for "Viagra" or "Tylenol".  You really ought to look
at a sample of say 100 posts or maybe 1000, and see just how bad it
gets.  You might be pleasantly surprised at how few posts fall into
the only-a-human-can-tell range.

It's also possible to tune SpamAssassin by deemphasizing rules that
give false positives, as well as by using the sa-learn tool to train
its adaptive filters.  (If that's not your cup of tea, take up a
collection and hire a consultant.)

There are alternatives such as SpamBayes which may be easier to
integrate.

 > members will be off moderation.  Their posts will go through in what
 > amounts to a whitelist.  The rest will be moderated.

I assume your list archives are non-public?  Otherwise whitelisting is
dangerous (I've gotten spam claiming to be from Barry Warsaw, for
example).

 > The spam sent to the posting address will be in my moderation window.
 > Mixed with the legit posts.  That is the problem.  Saying "this is spam so
 > I'm sending it to you for moderation" is not helpful.  The stuff is already
 > in moderation.  

Yes, we understand that.  What I'm saying that saying "this is
definitely spam so it goes in the trash" *is* helpful, and I get a
heck of a lot of spam that doesn't anything to do with health: stock
scams, counterfeit watches, and pirated software, for example.  If you
can get rid of all of that, wouldn't it be a big win?

 > Here's what I want:
 > 
 > Subscribers who are unmoderated to be whitelisted.
 > Non-subscribers who I have set to auto-accept to be whitelisted.
 > Potential spam from the moderated box to be sent to my graymail

Reasonable.

 > So, yes, I do want the spam filter to run through Mailman.

Well, maybe you do.  Then again, maybe life would be better if you
handled all whitelisting and spam moderation through SpamAssassin.
SpamAssassin *can* do all of the above without being integrated into
Mailman.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Mark Sapiro]

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>
>I agree.  There is no easy way I see of doing what I want.  I guess I need
>to see what all the options are and play with it for a while and see what
>my ISP does.


So if I understand, you want spam filtering to apply only to
non-members who aren't in accept_these_nonmembers.

You aren't going to be able to do that unless sonic installs the
SpamAssassin patch referred to earlier in this thread or something
similar.

What that patch allows is setting a SpamAssassin 'hold' score and a
SpamAssassin 'discard' score and a member bonus for being a member or
in accept_these_nonmembers. If you set the member bonus high enough,
no member post would ever be held or discarded.

The problem with that is those settings are global, not per-list. The
patch could always be modified to make the settings per-list, but that
makes it less likely you'd ever see it installed.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Spyro Polymiadis]

Ive got it working with spamassassin just fine,

It gets spam checked as soon as its received by postfix, then it passes on to 
the mailman software - where non dropped spam gets checked again

I just have X-Spam-Flag: YES = discard (or hold for moderation in some more 
important lists) in my spam settings and for it not to accept mail from non 
list members (unless it's a public list) - ontop of that postfix does rbl 
checks etc and drops most spam now before it even hits spamassassin for 
checking..

Its worked a treat thus far..

Cheers
Spyro

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:mailman-users-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cyndi
> Norwitz
> Sent: Monday, 10 December 2007 4:19 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; mailman-users@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
>
>Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:21:01 -0800
>From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>>There is nothing called spam filters in privacy options.
>
>In the admin interface, there should be four sub-pages under Privacy
>options...
>
> Yeah, duh, somehow I missed that :)
>
>Does list mail (received posts) have any SpamAssassin headers, e.g.
>X-Spam-Status:, X-Spam-Flag:, X-Spam-Level:.
>
> Not taht I can see.  Here's a sample header from a spam attempted post:
>
> Received: from b.mx.sonic.net (b.mx.sonic.net [209.204.159.4])
>   by listman.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP
> id
>   lB56QfhY031208
>   for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 4 Dec 2007
> 22:26:41
>   -0800
> Received: from fedmail.FEDMAIL (70.43.123.148.nw.nuvox.net
> [70.43.123.148])
>   by b.mx.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id
>   lB56Qchx002626
>   for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41 -0800
> Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Received: from fedmail (70.43.123.67.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.67]) by
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>   id YFVARF1L; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 01:10:37 -0500
> Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:10:36 -0500
> From: Prime Vendor<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Hello JAMES FELDMAN
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> X-Sonic-SB-IP-RBLs: IP RBLs .
>
>
> Thanks,
> Cyndi
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:34:45 -0800
   From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   How about rejecting or discarding non-member posts instead of holding
   them. does that help?

If the spam problem is too great, I may have to disallow non-member posts
except for people who write me asking to be put on an approved list.  I
have several regular posters who are not subscribers by their own choice
(their posts are generally newsletters).  My preference is to allow
non-member posts but moderate them (except for the few I put an auto-allow
on). 

   >I also don't want any member's mail that is not moderated to be marked
   >spam and held for moderation.  Given the nature of the list, this could
   >easily be 5-10% of all legit posts.

   So you are basically saying that you don't trust any spam filter other
   than a human, so all this discussion is moot.

No.  I said I don't want my unmoderated members to get their posts held due
to having keywords that match spam.  Spam filters always have false
positives.  In my experience, SA has a ton of false positives on my list
posts.  Spam filters are very useful but I don't want to rely on them
100%. 

   >Here's what I want:
   >
   >Subscribers who are unmoderated to be whitelisted.
   >Non-subscribers who I have set to auto-accept to be whitelisted.

   You already have these.

If the spam filter works on the mail server, then it will screen all the
posts, not just the ones held for moderation.

   >Potential spam from the moderated box to be sent to my graymail (my ISP's
   >  name (or maybe a common name, I don't know) for suspected spam--they send
   >  an email each night with the from and subject headers).

   Mailman sends a summary every morning with the From: and Subject: of
   the held posts waiting moderator action.

Yes, that is acceptable, if I can access them.  But I don't want spam to be
left in my moderation box.

   Here you have a problem because detecting a flagged post based on
   header_filter_rules is not sensitive to whether or not the poster is
   "whitelisted" (you could make rules for this, but it would be too
   cumbersome; you'd basically need to list everyone's address in a rule).

I agree.  There is no easy way I see of doing what I want.  I guess I need
to see what all the options are and play with it for a while and see what
my ISP does.

Thanks,
Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Mark Sapiro]

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>
>   Does list mail (received posts) have any SpamAssassin headers, e.g.
>   X-Spam-Status:, X-Spam-Flag:, X-Spam-Level:.
>
>Not taht I can see.  Here's a sample header from a spam attempted post:
>
>Received: from b.mx.sonic.net (b.mx.sonic.net [209.204.159.4])
> by listman.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id
> lB56QfhY031208
> for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41
> -0800
>Received: from fedmail.FEDMAIL (70.43.123.148.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.148])
> by b.mx.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id
> lB56Qchx002626
> for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41 -0800
>Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Received: from fedmail (70.43.123.67.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.67]) by
> fedmail.FEDMAIL with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail
> Service Version 5.5.2653.13)
> id YFVARF1L; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 01:10:37 -0500
>Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:10:36 -0500
>From: Prime Vendor<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Hello JAMES FELDMAN
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>X-Sonic-SB-IP-RBLs: IP RBLs .


Well, that last one seems to say that something at sonic thinks the
sending IP is in a blacklist, or maybe that blacklists were checked
and the IP wasn't found.

You'd probably have to ask sonic what the possible headers are and what
they mean.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:21:01 -0800
   From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
   >There is nothing called spam filters in privacy options.

   In the admin interface, there should be four sub-pages under Privacy
   options...

Yeah, duh, somehow I missed that :)

   Does list mail (received posts) have any SpamAssassin headers, e.g.
   X-Spam-Status:, X-Spam-Flag:, X-Spam-Level:.

Not taht I can see.  Here's a sample header from a spam attempted post:

Received: from b.mx.sonic.net (b.mx.sonic.net [209.204.159.4])
  by listman.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id
  lB56QfhY031208
  for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41
  -0800
Received: from fedmail.FEDMAIL (70.43.123.148.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.148])
  by b.mx.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id
  lB56Qchx002626
  for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41 -0800
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Received: from fedmail (70.43.123.67.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.67]) by
  fedmail.FEDMAIL with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail
  Service Version 5.5.2653.13)
  id YFVARF1L; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 01:10:37 -0500
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:10:36 -0500
From: Prime Vendor<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Hello JAMES FELDMAN
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-Sonic-SB-IP-RBLs: IP RBLs .


Thanks,
Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Mark Sapiro]

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>
>The spam sent to the posting address will be in my moderation window.
>Mixed with the legit posts.  That is the problem.  Saying "this is spam so
>I'm sending it to you for moderation" is not helpful.  The stuff is already
>in moderation.  


How about rejecting or discarding non-member posts instead of holding
them. does that help? Note that there are problems with rejecting spam
although Mailman has limits on the number of autoresponses per day to
a given user to prevent joe-jobbing. There are also problems with
discarding non-member posts if you ever expect to get legitimate
messages from non-members, but these are options to consider
(generic_nonmember_action = reject or discard).


>I also don't want any member's mail that is not moderated to be marked spam
>and held for moderation.  Given the nature of the list, this could easily
>be 5-10% of all legit posts.


So you are basically saying that you don't trust any spam filter other
than a human, so all this discussion is moot.


>I do want the administriva filter on, but
>that's already working okay.
>
>Here's what I want:
>
>Subscribers who are unmoderated to be whitelisted.
>Non-subscribers who I have set to auto-accept to be whitelisted.


You already have these.


>Potential spam from the moderated box to be sent to my graymail (my ISP's
>  name (or maybe a common name, I don't know) for suspected spam--they send
>  an email each night with the from and subject headers).


Mailman sends a summary every morning with the From: and Subject: of
the held posts waiting moderator action.


>So, yes, I do want the spam filter to run through Mailman.  But I will
>accept a spam filter from an earlier server if I can whitelist easily,
>though it won't be very helpful to me.


Here you have a problem because detecting a flagged post based on
header_filter_rules is not sensitive to whether or not the poster is
"whitelisted" (you could make rules for this, but it would be too
cumbersome; you'd basically need to list everyone's address in a rule).

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Mark Sapiro]

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>
>   Yes.  Set up your spam filters under "Privacy options..." then "Spam 
> filters".
>
>There is nothing called spam filters in privacy options.


In the admin interface, there should be four sub-pages under Privacy
options...

* Subscription rules
* Sender filters
* Recipient filters
* Spam filters 

If they aren't all there, then this is something sonic.net has done to
their installation.


>My guess is they are different servers, though the posts may pass through
>the email server at some point.  List mail goes to lists.sonic.net, email
>to sonic.net.


Does list mail (received posts) have any SpamAssassin headers, e.g.
X-Spam-Status:, X-Spam-Flag:, X-Spam-Level:.

If so, you can filter on those with header_filter_rules which is under
Spam filters if you have it, but see my reply (to come) to your
subsequent post.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 08:24:32 +0900

   Almost.  If you worry about false positives, you can ask them to make
   sure that the "spam level header" which gives a "spamminess rating"
   according to the number of stars (eg, X-Spam-Level: ** is a 10)
   is enabled.  Then you can add a discard filter for "^X-Spam-Level:
   \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*" to your Mailman configuration which nukes all
   posts with level 10 spamminess or more, and a hold filter to
   "^X-Spam-Level: \*\*\*\*\*" which holds posts with level 5 or more for
   moderation.  Tune the number of stars to fit your experience.

But this isn't useful to me.  Oh, I'm sure some of the really bad spam
would go away, but this is a health list and so there are *a lot* of false
positives because we mention a lot of spam-like keywords.  So I'd have to
set the spam level pretty high.

A couple of months post-migration, I expect that the majority of my list
members will be off moderation.  Their posts will go through in what
amounts to a whitelist.  The rest will be moderated.

The spam sent to the posting address will be in my moderation window.
Mixed with the legit posts.  That is the problem.  Saying "this is spam so
I'm sending it to you for moderation" is not helpful.  The stuff is already
in moderation.  

I also don't want any member's mail that is not moderated to be marked spam
and held for moderation.  Given the nature of the list, this could easily
be 5-10% of all legit posts.  I do want the administriva filter on, but
that's already working okay.

Here's what I want:

Subscribers who are unmoderated to be whitelisted.
Non-subscribers who I have set to auto-accept to be whitelisted.
Potential spam from the moderated box to be sent to my graymail (my ISP's
  name (or maybe a common name, I don't know) for suspected spam--they send
  an email each night with the from and subject headers).

So, yes, I do want the spam filter to run through Mailman.  But I will
accept a spam filter from an earlier server if I can whitelist easily,
though it won't be very helpful to me.

Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 14:11:00 -0600
   From: Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   >  No, that they haven't taken the steps to integrate it with MM yet and have
   >  no immediate plans to do so.

   They don't need to.  So long as they're running SpamAssassin on their
   machines and using the standard SpamAssassin tagging feature, you can
   take advantage of that.  You don't need any further help from them on
   that subject.

That would rock.

   >  Is there a way *I* can without the ISP doing anything?

   Yes.  Set up your spam filters under "Privacy options..." then "Spam 
filters".

There is nothing called spam filters in privacy options.

I also checked content filtering and there is nothing relevant.

   So long as the e-mail for your mailing lists are passing through the
   same servers, then it doesn't matter.  At that point, e-mail is e-mail
   and it doesn't really matter who the sender is or who the recipient(s)
   is/are.

My guess is they are different servers, though the posts may pass through
the email server at some point.  List mail goes to lists.sonic.net, email
to sonic.net.

Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Brad Knowles writes:

 > On 12/9/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
 > 
 > >>I thought you earlier wrote that SpamAssassin *is* being run by the 
 > >> ISP,
 > >
 > >  Correct.
 > >
 > >>but "can't be used" with Mailman.
 > >
 > >  No, that they haven't taken the steps to integrate it with MM yet and have
 > >  no immediate plans to do so.
 > 
 > They don't need to.

And don't want to (I'm surprised Brad didn't reemphasize this).  If
they are running SpamAssassin, you want them to run it in such a way
that your MTA can refuse to accept the mail at all.  This has the
advantages that (1) you (and your Mailman) never see it, which (2)
saves your ISP the cost of running Mailman, and (3) in case of a
"false positive", a real user will see that their mail was bounced and
complain to you, and have some useful information for diagnosing why.

It's (2) and to some extent (3) that makes this method significantly
better than filtering on SpamAssassin headers at the Mailman stage.

 > So long as they're running SpamAssassin on their 
 > machines and using the standard SpamAssassin tagging feature, you can 
 > take advantage of that.  You don't need any further help from them on 
 > that subject.

Almost.  If you worry about false positives, you can ask them to make
sure that the "spam level header" which gives a "spamminess rating"
according to the number of stars (eg, X-Spam-Level: ** is a
10) is enabled.  Then you can add a discard filter for
"^X-Spam-Level: \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*" to your Mailman configuration
which nukes all posts with level 10 spamminess or more, and a hold
filter to "^X-Spam-Level: \*\*\*\*\*" which holds posts with level 5
or more for moderation.  Tune the number of stars to fit your
experience.

This header is on by default, and you can easily check the headers of
list mail to see if it's there.

 > 
 > >>If SpamAssassin is installed, I don't understand why you can't use it
 > >>with Mailman.
 > >
 > >  Is there a way *I* can without the ISP doing anything?
 > 
 > Yes.  Set up your spam filters under "Privacy options..." then "Spam 
 > filters".
 > 
 > >>Lack of spam filtering is not just another feature that might not be
 > >>provided in today's mail environment; it's a complete loss of service
 > >>waiting to happen.  IMHO YMMV etc, but I strongly advise you be
 > >>proactive on this.
 > >
 > >  I'm working on it.  They do have SA for email.
 > 
 > So long as the e-mail for your mailing lists are passing through the 
 > same servers, then it doesn't matter.  At that point, e-mail is 
 > e-mail and it doesn't really matter who the sender is or who the 
 > recipient(s) is/are.
 > 
 > -- 
 > Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > LinkedIn Profile: 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Brad Knowles]

On 12/9/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:

>>I thought you earlier wrote that SpamAssassin *is* being run by the ISP,
>
>  Correct.
>
>>but "can't be used" with Mailman.
>
>  No, that they haven't taken the steps to integrate it with MM yet and have
>  no immediate plans to do so.

They don't need to.  So long as they're running SpamAssassin on their 
machines and using the standard SpamAssassin tagging feature, you can 
take advantage of that.  You don't need any further help from them on 
that subject.

>>If SpamAssassin is installed, I don't understand why you can't use it
>>with Mailman.
>
>  Is there a way *I* can without the ISP doing anything?

Yes.  Set up your spam filters under "Privacy options..." then "Spam filters".

>>Lack of spam filtering is not just another feature that might not be
>>provided in today's mail environment; it's a complete loss of service
>>waiting to happen.  IMHO YMMV etc, but I strongly advise you be
>>proactive on this.
>
>  I'm working on it.  They do have SA for email.

So long as the e-mail for your mailing lists are passing through the 
same servers, then it doesn't matter.  At that point, e-mail is 
e-mail and it doesn't really matter who the sender is or who the 
recipient(s) is/are.

-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 17:57:57 +0900

   I thought you earlier wrote that SpamAssassin *is* being run by the ISP,

Correct.

   but "can't be used" with Mailman. 

No, that they haven't taken the steps to integrate it with MM yet and have
no immediate plans to do so.  

   If SpamAssassin is installed, I don't understand why you can't use it
   with Mailman.

Is there a way *I* can without the ISP doing anything?

   Lack of spam filtering is not just another feature that might not be
   provided in today's mail environment; it's a complete loss of service
   waiting to happen.  IMHO YMMV etc, but I strongly advise you be
   proactive on this.

I'm working on it.  They do have SA for email.

This is a great small local ISP.  They are very responsive to problems and
go out of their way for their customers.  I suspect no one has asked them
yet for this feature.  I expect they'll deal with it soon.

Thanks,
Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Cyndi Norwitz writes:

 >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 08:49:30 -0800
 >From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > 
 >SpamAssassin is much better integrated in the MTA ahead of Mailman, but
 >if they want to integrate SpamAssassin with Mailman at some point,
 >refer them to
 >
 > 
 >and
 >
 > .
 > 
 > Many thanks.  I have passed this along to my ISP.

I thought you earlier wrote that SpamAssassin *is* being run by the
ISP, but "can't be used" with Mailman.  If SpamAssassin is installed,
I don't understand why you can't use it with Mailman.

Lack of spam filtering is not just another feature that might not be
provided in today's mail environment; it's a complete loss of service
waiting to happen.  IMHO YMMV etc, but I strongly advise you be
proactive on this.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 08:49:30 -0800
   From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   SpamAssassin is much better integrated in the MTA ahead of Mailman, but
   if they want to integrate SpamAssassin with Mailman at some point,
   refer them to
   

   and
   
.

Many thanks.  I have passed this along to my ISP.

Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[David Gibbs]

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> if they want to integrate SpamAssassin with Mailman at some point,
> refer them to
> .

I can endorse this patch ... I've used it for years and it works great.

david


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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Brian Carpenter]

Hi Cyndi:

I have been monitoring your situation. We offer a mailman hosting service
that does not require the client to move their entire hosting to us. Our
mailman clients have access to our mailscanner/spamassassin anti-spam system
for just $2 a month with great success. We have been offering mailman
services now for years and unlike many web hosts out there, we are committed
to supporting our mailman clients and not to ignoring them. Mailman is a
great software and we have enjoyed using and supporting it through the
years.

If you want more information, our mailman page is at
http://www.emwd.com/mailman.html. 

Regards,
Brian
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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark
Sapiro
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 11:50 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>
>Well, I'm happy with my ISP and have no plans to move *again*.  But I will
>ask them again if they can do it.  The reply I got from them was: "In the
>future Sonic.net could integrate SpamAssassin into Mailman but that's not
>currently on anyones plate."


SpamAssassin is much better integrated in the MTA ahead of Mailman, but
if they want to integrate SpamAssassin with Mailman at some point,
refer them to
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=534577&group_id=10
3&atid=300103>
and
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=640518&group_id=10
3&atid=300103>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Mark Sapiro]

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>
>Well, I'm happy with my ISP and have no plans to move *again*.  But I will
>ask them again if they can do it.  The reply I got from them was: "In the
>future Sonic.net could integrate SpamAssassin into Mailman but that's not
>currently on anyones plate."


SpamAssassin is much better integrated in the MTA ahead of Mailman, but
if they want to integrate SpamAssassin with Mailman at some point,
refer them to

and
.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   From: Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 01:53:21 -0600

   I was talking about moving just your mailing lists, not all your ISP  
   services. Of course you could link those two if you want, but there  
   are plenty of mailing list only providers that you could at least  
   check out.

As I said, I am happy with my ISP and have no plans to move my lists again.

If there is no way for me to filter spam, then I will live with it until my
ISP is able to fix the problem.  Every provider has strengths and
weaknesses and I believe it is a poor choice to suddenly switch around
simply because there is one feature missing.  Another provider will have a
different weakness.  And most of them will cost money.  My lists are free
with my account services.

Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Brad Knowles]

I was talking about moving just your mailing lists, not all your ISP  
services. Of course you could link those two if you want, but there  
are plenty of mailing list only providers that you could at least  
check out.

-- 
Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 8, 2007, at 1:04 AM, Cyndi Norwitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 00:27:11 -0600
>   From: Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>>   Mailman doesn't have great tools for this.  Instead, you should
>>   configure your mail server to reject or discard the spam messages
>>   before they ever get to Mailman.
>>
>> Any ideas how to do this when your ISP is hosting Mailman?
>
>   That would be the responsibility of your ISP.  If they're not doing
>   their job, then maybe you might want to find a different provider of
>   this particular service.
>
> Well, I'm happy with my ISP and have no plans to move *again*.  But  
> I will
> ask them again if they can do it.  The reply I got from them was:  
> "In the
> future Sonic.net could integrate SpamAssassin into Mailman but  
> that's not
> currently on anyones plate."
>
> Thanks,
> Cyndi
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 00:27:11 -0600
   From: Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   >Mailman doesn't have great tools for this.  Instead, you should
   >configure your mail server to reject or discard the spam messages
   >before they ever get to Mailman.
   >
   >  Any ideas how to do this when your ISP is hosting Mailman?

   That would be the responsibility of your ISP.  If they're not doing 
   their job, then maybe you might want to find a different provider of 
   this particular service.

Well, I'm happy with my ISP and have no plans to move *again*.  But I will
ask them again if they can do it.  The reply I got from them was: "In the
future Sonic.net could integrate SpamAssassin into Mailman but that's not
currently on anyones plate."

Thanks,
Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Brad Knowles]

On 12/7/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:

>>  Now, I am getting everyday about 100s of spam emails in that 
>list. Please
>>  advise how to deal with this?
>
>Mailman doesn't have great tools for this.  Instead, you should
>configure your mail server to reject or discard the spam messages
>before they ever get to Mailman.
>
>  Any ideas how to do this when your ISP is hosting Mailman?

That would be the responsibility of your ISP.  If they're not doing 
their job, then maybe you might want to find a different provider of 
this particular service.

There are multiple different providers of service for Mailman and 
Mailman-hosted mailing lists linked from FAQ 1.17 at 
. 
I believe that at least one of those is actually fairly active on the 
mailman-users mailing list, although I don't have any personal 
experience with their particular service.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 13:35:56 -0600
   From: Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   On 12/7/07, Vinita Aggarwal wrote:
   >  Now, I am getting everyday about 100s of spam emails in that list. Please
   >  advise how to deal with this?

   Mailman doesn't have great tools for this.  Instead, you should 
   configure your mail server to reject or discard the spam messages 
   before they ever get to Mailman.

Any ideas how to do this when your ISP is hosting Mailman?  

As soon as they finish mass subscribing my address list, my domain name
list address will be active with MM and it gets HUNDREDS of spams a day.
Since I can't run them through SpamAssasin (that my ISP runs) (with
majordomo, msgs sent for moderation have MD headers so you can't check for
false positives without opening each msg), I use procmail to get rid of the
worst of the spam.

With the migration, I won't be able to use procmail anymore.  And SA won't
be an option either.  I'll be slowly unmoderating most of my list members
but many will have to be on moderation for life.  And their posts will be
mixed in with all the spam on the web interface.

I can ban the spammer's addresses through the interface, and even put some
key spam phrases into the interface, but it won't help much.

I've asked in my ISP's usenet group for Mailman and got no answers.

Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Brad Knowles]

On 12/7/07, Vinita Aggarwal wrote:

>  Now, I am getting everyday about 100s of spam emails in that list. Please
>  advise how to deal with this?

Mailman doesn't have great tools for this.  Instead, you should 
configure your mail server to reject or discard the spam messages 
before they ever get to Mailman.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Mark Sapiro]

Vinita Aggarwal wrote:
>
>I have a list in which anyone can post. "Hold the positing from non
>members".
>
>Now, I am getting everyday about 100s of spam emails in that list. Please
>advise how to deal with this?


It is best to start a new topic on a list by creating a new message,
not by replying to someone else's post. When you reply to an unrelated
post, your post gets threaded in the other topic in the archive and it
makes the archive hard to read.


Anyway, the answer to your question is install better spam filtering in
your MTA. The best thing is to identify spam at incoming SMTP time and
don't accept it in the first place. Next best is to accept it but
silently discard it in the MTA - do not bounce it to the claimed
sender as this is almost certainly forged.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Vinita Aggarwal]

Hi

I am not very sound in mailman configuration.

I have a list in which anyone can post. "Hold the positing from non
members".

Now, I am getting everyday about 100s of spam emails in that list. Please
advise how to deal with this?


Regards,
Vinita Aggarwal

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mohamed CHAARI
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 1:12 PM
To: Mark Sapiro
Cc: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] running External Archiver on
background/foreground

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Mohamed CHAARI wrote:
> 
>> Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>> See
>>>
.
>>>
>> you mentioned, in the thread above (Aug 2005), that it would be better 
>> to have a unique temporary file, to avoid conflict problems ...
>> I've tried this, in mm_cfg.py, using unix timestamp
>>
>> PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER = 'cat > /var/run/mailman/mail_tmp.$(date +%s); 
>> /usr/local/bin/external_arch.pl %(listname)s &'
>>
>> but without success.
>> is there a way to do it ? should I use Python functions to get unix 
>> timestamp for current date ?
> 
> 
> It looks to me as if you have inherited something from Jean-Philippe GIOLA
and
> it is now way more complicated than it needs to be.

yes

> 
> Here are my observations on the above:
> 
> 1) The name "mail_tmp.$(date +%s)" may still not be unique. What if two
> messages arrive to be archived within the same second?
> 
> 2)How does /usr/local/bin/external_arch.pl determine what file to read?
And, if
> it just picks one, it could be for the wrong list.
> 
> 3)The reason the above doesn't work at all is mailman interpolates into
the
> PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER string from a dictionary in order to replace
> %(listname)s with the actual listname, but this interpolation sees the %s
date
> format and replaces it with the entire dictionary. You have to double the
% to
> avoid this. E.g.
> 
> 'cat > /var/run/mailman/mail_tmp.$(date +%%s);
/usr/local/bin/external_arch.pl
> %(listname)s &'

ok

> 
> 4) The normal way to do this is to not bother with the tempfile stuff at
all,
> but rather to just pipe the message to the external archiver as in
> 
> PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER = '/usr/local/bin/external_arch.pl %(listname)s'
> 
> Then external_arch.pl can just read it's standard input for the message.
If you
> do it this way, you can't run it in the background because it won't get
> standard input from the pipe, but the only reason it might need to run in
the
> background is if it does something which locks the list.

which is our case, because of the call to 'arch'

> 
> I think Jean-Philippe GIOLA was doing these wierd contortions because he
wanted
> both the normal pipermail archive and an external archive,

yes this is exactly our requirement

> but the normal way
> to do this is to just do normal archiving in Mailman and subscribe an
address
> to the list to do the external archiving.
> 

I didn't understand well this solution. can you please explain it, how 
can a subscriber/address do the external archiving ?


Thank you in advance


-- 
---
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