Re: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts QuestionBellInvestments
Rubin, I appreciate your statements regarding Jim. He certainly sounds like a paid lackey of the telco lobbyists. But who knows? I don't agree with his point of view. And he sounds logical and sensible until you read his punchline. And frankly, this is the type of double-speak that private lobbyists are good at... leading you along a logical, sensible path each step of the way, until you take that last step off the cliff. But frankly, this is an open forum, and even though I don't agree with Jim, and even if he is paid by the other side (who I don't really look at as the other side; I'd be very happy to have a constructive conversation with everyone being honest about their motivations and without all the astroturf statements), he is allowed to post here, and will continue to be allowed to express his opinion. And just so that everyone is clear on this: NYCwireless receives NO FUNDING other than individual membership fees, and no board members work for or receive payment directly from cablecos or telcos or any political or lobbying organizations. Our opinions are exactly that: our personal opinions. And the statements made in NYCwireless' name are motivated and made independently from any other organization, political or otherwise. Dana Spiegel Executive Director NYCwireless [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.NYCwireless.net +1 917 402 0422 Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info On Mar 16, 2006, at 7:37 AM, Ruben Safir wrote: On Thu, 2006-03-16 at 00:50 -0500, Dana Spiegel wrote: Again, Jim, you love to mis-represent. If *you* understood how our economy functions, you'd know that what would happen if these companies went belly up would be that, after a short period of dark time, lots of little companies would be formed (some non-profits like NYCwireless, in fact), that would start to provide the missing service. Many of these companies would be started by and employ many of the same technicians and engineers that were abandoned when their bosses ran their telco and cableco companies into the ground. Soon, there would be many companies competing, buying up the (now cheap) resources of the rotting carcasses of those old telco and cablecos, and putting the existing infrastructure back to use, but running it in a more efficient manner. This is what Joseph Schumpeter, a great economist, called "Creative Destruction". It is the way healthy economies and competitive marketplaces work. Dana Overnight I've given this thread some serious consideration. When I ran the lists for NYLXS and NYFairUse there have been times when paid lobbyest and an disruptor's by the copyright industry had been on the mailing list. Sometimes they are just collecting data for later use in testimony and courts. At other times they have used the maillists as tools to sharpen they're arguments for the public and congressional hearings, or to do blatant lobbying on the list. These are paid commercial interests on the list and should not be viewed as individual members. With regard to their arguments on the list, they could care less about the issues, only the paycheck. It is this kind of relentless lobbying and paid for advertising that gives commercial interests a ridicules advantage that they have in public discourse. They relentlessly stay on message and relentlessly argue and misrepresent their cases 24/7. I'd recommend that you remove this person from the list. I don't make this recommendation lightly. In fact, in over a decade, it is unprecedented for me to make a public request such as this on someone elses list to ban anyone. But in this case, your not banning an individual, or even curbing speech on the list, but just eliminating a hired disruptor who is hired with hard cash to oppose the goals of your organization. Sincerly Ruben Safir President NYLXS Founder of NY Fair Use Dana Spiegel Executive Director NYCwireless [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.NYCwireless.net +1 917 402 0422 Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
Re: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts QuestionBellInvestments
On Thu, 2006-03-16 at 00:50 -0500, Dana Spiegel wrote: > Again, Jim, you love to mis-represent. > > If *you* understood how our economy functions, you'd know that what > would happen if these companies went belly up would be that, after a > short period of dark time, lots of little companies would be formed > (some non-profits like NYCwireless, in fact), that would start to > provide the missing service. Many of these companies would be started > by and employ many of the same technicians and engineers that were > abandoned when their bosses ran their telco and cableco companies > into the ground. Soon, there would be many companies competing, > buying up the (now cheap) resources of the rotting carcasses of those > old telco and cablecos, and putting the existing infrastructure back > to use, but running it in a more efficient manner. > > This is what Joseph Schumpeter, a great economist, called "Creative > Destruction". It is the way healthy economies and competitive > marketplaces work. > Dana Overnight I've given this thread some serious consideration. When I ran the lists for NYLXS and NYFairUse there have been times when paid lobbyest and an disruptor's by the copyright industry had been on the mailing list. Sometimes they are just collecting data for later use in testimony and courts. At other times they have used the maillists as tools to sharpen they're arguments for the public and congressional hearings, or to do blatant lobbying on the list. These are paid commercial interests on the list and should not be viewed as individual members. With regard to their arguments on the list, they could care less about the issues, only the paycheck. It is this kind of relentless lobbying and paid for advertising that gives commercial interests a ridicules advantage that they have in public discourse. They relentlessly stay on message and relentlessly argue and misrepresent their cases 24/7. I'd recommend that you remove this person from the list. I don't make this recommendation lightly. In fact, in over a decade, it is unprecedented for me to make a public request such as this on someone elses list to ban anyone. But in this case, your not banning an individual, or even curbing speech on the list, but just eliminating a hired disruptor who is hired with hard cash to oppose the goals of your organization. Sincerly Ruben Safir President NYLXS Founder of NY Fair Use > Dana Spiegel > Executive Director > NYCwireless > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.NYCwireless.net > +1 917 402 0422 > > Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
Re: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts QuestionBellInvestments
Again, Jim, you love to mis-represent. If *you* understood how our economy functions, you'd know that what would happen if these companies went belly up would be that, after a short period of dark time, lots of little companies would be formed (some non-profits like NYCwireless, in fact), that would start to provide the missing service. Many of these companies would be started by and employ many of the same technicians and engineers that were abandoned when their bosses ran their telco and cableco companies into the ground. Soon, there would be many companies competing, buying up the (now cheap) resources of the rotting carcasses of those old telco and cablecos, and putting the existing infrastructure back to use, but running it in a more efficient manner. This is what Joseph Schumpeter, a great economist, called "Creative Destruction". It is the way healthy economies and competitive marketplaces work. Dana Spiegel Executive Director NYCwireless [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.NYCwireless.net +1 917 402 0422 Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info On Mar 15, 2006, at 10:27 PM, Jim Henry wrote: Ruben, Telcos don't pay franchise fees in most cases to the best of my knowledge and are now doing their best to avoid paying them as cable companies do, even as the telcos begin to roll out video service. On the other hand, cable companies DO pay them. In addition, yes they also provide local access channels for the communities they serve. I don't know how you can interpret that as some sort of monopoly for either cable or telcos. These channels are USED by the local communities. They are PROVIDED by the cable companies at no charge and with no restrictions in ADDITION to the fees paid to the community. Often the cable companies also provide studio services for the community's use. They are no monopoly. The communities are not required to use them and there is no restriction against the community using a different medium such as over the air radio or TV, Internet, etc., to communicate to their citizens. Also, you keep confusing my references to cable, with your interpretation of telco. This seems to happen often on this list. They are NOT the same. Yes they are starting to converge but they are different industries with vastly different origins under vastly different regulatory infrastructure. To repeat a point, you go on to make statements about these industries that indicate an almost total lack of understanding about how our economy functions. Yes let's suppose all companies in both of these industries went belly up tomorrow. You think no one would notice? Let's see. The techs and engineers would not report to work, they'd be seeking other jobs. Their motives just aren't as altruistic as yours I guess, for they are in it for the money as they have families to feed. The vehicle fleets would be auctioned off. The multi-million dollar switches and routers in the headends and COs would be sold off to help satisfy debt to creditors. Soon, video, data and voice services would be failing. Forget that residential services would drop and people would be unhappy. More importantly, businesses would no longer be able to conduct business. Layoffs would ensue. I think it could come precipiticiously close to bringing our whole economy down. Given the choices I think many people would actually choose the model we have now. Jim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ruben Safir Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 10:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] As to it not being about profit, I could not disagree more. Who is it supposedly making such a decision? Certainly no one in control of enough resources to make a substantial increase in broadband penetration. If so they'd be gone pretty quickly for fiscal incompetence. And this is where the lie is. The ability to provide broadband has been built into the telco system since the late 1970's and the "franchise fees" are the public access channels which provide exclusive monopolies to cable and telco to the last mile into the home. This resource should NOT be treated as a property of Cable or Telco providers. It is, by definition, 100% a public trust. WHO GIVES A RATS @$$ if every cable company and telco company goes belly up in the morning. The economy won't even BLINK, and it would free up billions of dollars of public investment. The current way that common carrier access is handled is exactly as if the roads and highways where sold lock stock and barrel to FedEx. Rather than the roads being a MEANS of competition for serves, they are being used to squash innovation. PERIOD. Those franchise fees that your complaining about, that is CHEAP stuff for the cable companies and something that they wouldn't want tampered with, THAT IS FOR SURE. If your such a genius about business, look up t
RE: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts QuestionBellInvestments
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 22:27, Jim Henry wrote: > Ruben, >Telcos don't pay franchise fees in most cases to the best of my knowledge > and are now doing their best to avoid paying them as cable companies do, > even as the telcos begin to roll out video service. > On the other hand, cable companies DO pay them. In addition, yes > they also provide local access channels for the communities they serve. I > don't know how you can interpret that as some sort of monopoly for either > cable or telcos. These channels are USED by the local communities. This whole right up a load of jaargon laced claptrap. The telcos have exclusive rights to your house through an intermediary franchise granted by NYC whose name is escaping me at the moment. If not for the Federal Teleco Act to open up competition, even Covad would NEVER had happened. As for the Cable TV companies, they actively did a shakedown routine on local communities, holding up CTV access for a decade to shake out money. I remember this as a PRIMARY witness to the events after attending the hearing and being directly involved in political machinations at the time, especially when they left out Brooklyn and Bronx for decades and held up Rockville Center under a direct threat. Don't even attempt to rewrite the history. Alex Pilosoft was still learning basic English when these things were going down. > They are > PROVIDED by the cable companies at no charge and with no restrictions in > ADDITION to the fees paid to the community. GOOD. Or they can rip out the cables and we can get a better carrier in there. No Problem Amigo. Ruben -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts QuestionBellInvestments
Let me fess up! I do NOT work for the telcos. However I am an engineering manager for a cable company, though the views I express are merely my own. I'm also a free market Libertarian that believes the government is not my Mommy (nor anyone else's) Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:35 PM > To: Jim Henry > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts > QuestionBellInvestments > > > Arguing with Ruben as about as pointless as arguing with > someone whose > bills are being paid by telcos. ;) > > Hint hint. > > -alex > > > On Wed, 15 Mar 2006, Jim Henry wrote: > > > No. Check the stats. Do you read any business publications? > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > > Of Ruben Safir > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 10:11 PM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > > > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts > > > QuestionBellInvestments > > > > > > > > > > > > << Make the U.S. more competitive? Look around you! It is > > > other nations who need to emulate us to attempt to compete > > > with US. And as a relative measure against ourselves, by all > > > the parameters used to measure the health of the U.S. economy > > > (unemployment pct, cost of living, inflation, # people > > > employed, home ownership, inflation, GDP, > > > etc.) the U.S. economy has never been better or stronger.>> > > > > > > > > > BTW this is rather insulting. Have you actually been > > > sleepwalking through the last 6 years of the high tech economy? > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > > > Un/Subscribe: > > > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > > > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release > > > Date: 3/9/2006 > > > > > > > > > > -- > > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > > Un/Subscribe: > > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release > Date: 3/9/2006 > > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts QuestionBellInvestments
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 22:28, Jim Henry wrote: > No. Check the stats. Do you read any business publications? > Yeah as a matter of fact I read the Wall Street Journal DAILY including the moronic editorial on this exact topic 2 days ago. I'll tell you what else I read, the unemployment of IT professionals in NYC. Its fairly unpleasant for a lot of people who have been essentially screwed by Telco and the Cable Man (along with others I might add). Ruben > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > Of Ruben Safir > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 10:11 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts > > QuestionBellInvestments > > > > > > > > << Make the U.S. more competitive? Look around you! It is > > other nations who need to emulate us to attempt to compete > > with US. And as a relative measure against ourselves, by all > > the parameters used to measure the health of the U.S. economy > > (unemployment pct, cost of living, inflation, # people > > employed, home ownership, inflation, GDP, > > etc.) the U.S. economy has never been better or stronger.>> > > > > > > BTW this is rather insulting. Have you actually been > > sleepwalking through the last 6 years of the high tech economy? > > > > > > > > -- > > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > > Un/Subscribe: > > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release > > Date: 3/9/2006 > > > > > > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts QuestionBellInvestments
Arguing with Ruben as about as pointless as arguing with someone whose bills are being paid by telcos. ;) Hint hint. -alex On Wed, 15 Mar 2006, Jim Henry wrote: > No. Check the stats. Do you read any business publications? > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > Of Ruben Safir > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 10:11 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts > > QuestionBellInvestments > > > > > > > > << Make the U.S. more competitive? Look around you! It is > > other nations who need to emulate us to attempt to compete > > with US. And as a relative measure against ourselves, by all > > the parameters used to measure the health of the U.S. economy > > (unemployment pct, cost of living, inflation, # people > > employed, home ownership, inflation, GDP, > > etc.) the U.S. economy has never been better or stronger.>> > > > > > > BTW this is rather insulting. Have you actually been > > sleepwalking through the last 6 years of the high tech economy? > > > > > > > > -- > > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > > Un/Subscribe: > > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release > > Date: 3/9/2006 > > > > > > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts QuestionBellInvestments
No. Check the stats. Do you read any business publications? > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Ruben Safir > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 10:11 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts > QuestionBellInvestments > > > > << Make the U.S. more competitive? Look around you! It is > other nations who need to emulate us to attempt to compete > with US. And as a relative measure against ourselves, by all > the parameters used to measure the health of the U.S. economy > (unemployment pct, cost of living, inflation, # people > employed, home ownership, inflation, GDP, > etc.) the U.S. economy has never been better or stronger.>> > > > BTW this is rather insulting. Have you actually been > sleepwalking through the last 6 years of the high tech economy? > > > > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release > Date: 3/9/2006 > > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Fwd: Multichannel News - Analysts QuestionBellInvestments
Ruben, Telcos don't pay franchise fees in most cases to the best of my knowledge and are now doing their best to avoid paying them as cable companies do, even as the telcos begin to roll out video service. On the other hand, cable companies DO pay them. In addition, yes they also provide local access channels for the communities they serve. I don't know how you can interpret that as some sort of monopoly for either cable or telcos. These channels are USED by the local communities. They are PROVIDED by the cable companies at no charge and with no restrictions in ADDITION to the fees paid to the community. Often the cable companies also provide studio services for the community's use. They are no monopoly. The communities are not required to use them and there is no restriction against the community using a different medium such as over the air radio or TV, Internet, etc., to communicate to their citizens. Also, you keep confusing my references to cable, with your interpretation of telco. This seems to happen often on this list. They are NOT the same. Yes they are starting to converge but they are different industries with vastly different origins under vastly different regulatory infrastructure. To repeat a point, you go on to make statements about these industries that indicate an almost total lack of understanding about how our economy functions. Yes let's suppose all companies in both of these industries went belly up tomorrow. You think no one would notice? Let's see. The techs and engineers would not report to work, they'd be seeking other jobs. Their motives just aren't as altruistic as yours I guess, for they are in it for the money as they have families to feed. The vehicle fleets would be auctioned off. The multi-million dollar switches and routers in the headends and COs would be sold off to help satisfy debt to creditors. Soon, video, data and voice services would be failing. Forget that residential services would drop and people would be unhappy. More importantly, businesses would no longer be able to conduct business. Layoffs would ensue. I think it could come precipiticiously close to bringing our whole economy down. Given the choices I think many people would actually choose the model we have now. Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Ruben Safir > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 10:04 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > As to it not being about profit, I could not disagree > more. Who is it > > supposedly making such a decision? Certainly no one in control of > > enough resources to make a substantial increase in broadband > > penetration. If so they'd be gone pretty quickly for fiscal > > incompetence. > And this is where the lie is. > > The ability to provide broadband has been built into the > telco system since the late 1970's and the "franchise fees" > are the public access channels which provide exclusive > monopolies to cable and telco to the last mile into the home. > > > This resource should NOT be treated as a property of Cable or > Telco providers. It is, by definition, 100% a public trust. > WHO GIVES A RATS @$$ if every cable company and telco company > goes belly up in the morning. The economy won't even BLINK, > and it would free up billions of dollars of public > investment. The current way that common carrier access is > handled is exactly as if the roads and highways where sold > lock stock and barrel to FedEx. Rather than the roads being > a MEANS of competition for serves, they are being used to > squash innovation. > > PERIOD. > > Those franchise fees that your complaining about, that is > CHEAP stuff for the cable companies and something that they > wouldn't want tampered with, THAT IS FOR SURE. > > If your such a genius about business, look up the term Gas > House Gangs. > There was a darn good reason the St Louis Cardinals were > named after them. > > Just remember, not EVERYONE everywhere is stupid enough to > swallow this BS which falls under the file of "What is good > for GM is Good for America" > > Blahhh. It makes me vomit. > > > > Ruben > > > Make the U.S. more competitive? Look around you! It is > other nations > > who need to emulate us to attempt to compete with US. And as a > > relative measure against ourselves, by all the parameters used to > > measure the health of the U.S. economy (unemployment pct, cost of > > living, inflation, # people employed, home ownership, > inflation, GDP, > > etc.) the U.S. economy has never been better or stronger. > > So what was it you paid for and who did you pay it to? > That said, of > > course we want to continue to improve! Respectfully, > > > > Jim > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > > Of Rob Kelley > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:29 PM > > > To: nycwireless@lists.nycw
